00:00Three major decisions in just 30 days.
00:02What's happening with the grand old party?
00:05Is the Congress finally not scared of taking risky decisions?
00:09Are we seeing some kind of a generational change,
00:12at least at the state level in the Congress?
00:15Will this be smooth transition or turbulence ahead?
00:18What really are the challenges now for DK Shiv Kumar?
00:21Joining me now, Dr. Sudhakar is the Lok Sabha MP of the BJP.
00:25He's been a former congressman and a minister in the Karnataka government.
00:28And Sandeep Shastri is a leading election analyst from Bengaluru.
00:33Also joining me, Dinesh Gundu Rao,
00:35Minister of Health and Family Welfare in the Karnataka government.
00:38And to you, I come, Mr. Gundu Rao.
00:40How am I to interpret what has happened in Karnataka?
00:44All of a sudden, after months of this internal power tussle,
00:48finally, Mr. Sidharamaya leaves and DK Shiv Kumar takes over.
00:52What are we to make out of it?
00:54Is the Congress finally willing, as I said, to take some tough calls?
01:02I think what has happened today, I think, is really an eye-opener
01:08because the way it has been conducted, the coordination and the clarity of thought and action
01:16has been very clear.
01:17And in the last three years, if you notice, Rajdeep, our government has been functioning smoothly,
01:23whether it is DK Shiv Kumar, who has always been an aspirant for the chief ministerial post.
01:28But there was never any, at any given point of time, any dissidents in the Congress party
01:32or in the government, the chief minister and the deputy chief minister and all the other ministers
01:38were working together and they were handling everything together.
01:42So, this issue of the chief ministerial change was always, whenever it was mentioned,
01:48our chief minister Sidharamayaji always told that whatever the high command decides,
01:52I will go by that.
01:53And DK Shiv Kumar had always told, whatever the high command decides, we will go by that.
01:57And the high command has taken a decision based on various inputs and has called Sidharamayaji,
02:05Sir, I know you have to play politically safe, but I must ask you, what has suddenly changed?
02:12Because the fact is that this tussle has been going on for the last year at least.
02:16The supporters of both sides have been coming to Delhi.
02:19Suddenly, it seems the ground reality has changed.
02:22DK Shiv Kumar takes over from Sidharamayaji.
02:25Until now, we were told Sidharamayaji is your big mass leader, OBC face.
02:29What's changed?
02:34Sidharamayaji remains a mass leader, Sidharamayaji remains an OBC face and he remains to be in
02:41active politics.
02:42He even mentioned it today that he is going to be in active politics, he is going to fight
02:46this dictatorial government that is there at the center, India is becoming an electoral
02:51autocracy, we need to fight that and he is won by the constitution and he has said that
02:56he will continue to fight for those values.
02:59So, see, now decisions are made in the Congress party based upon various inputs.
03:04Maybe there is a need for a newer leadership, a generational change and Shukumar has also
03:11been a contributor factor in the last election when we won the election handsomely and we
03:18routed the BJP in Karnataka.
03:19So, I think that coordination is always there between them.
03:23They worked together before the elections, they worked together after the elections and
03:27today the handover also if you see, Sidharamayaji hugging Shukumarji and then doing the press
03:32conference with him and you know, it just shows that…
03:36That's not a made for camera moment.
03:38People have ambitions but at the same time…
03:39That's not a made for camera moment.
03:40You are actually saying that the two leaders will be able to work together.
03:47I am 100% sure that we will work together.
03:50People thought, especially the BJP and even various people in the media thought that this
03:54is going to make up a big, you know, problem and a big situation like we saw, you know,
04:00in Punjab what happened, Rajdeep, you remember how things went wrong in Punjab.
04:03So I think the Congress also, the high command was able to manage it very well, spoke with everybody
04:09and a decision was taken at the right time and this is not made for the cameras.
04:15This is something that we all feel, if you look at all the MLAs, all the ministers, we
04:20were all there with Sidharamayaji because we respect him and you know, we have great
04:23regard for him and I think he is going to play a bigger role in the future also.
04:28So, I think, you know, there is…
04:30Generally, if you look everywhere around the state, people of the…
04:33The workers of the Congress party are also enthused and this has been a wonderful transition
04:38and I must credit Sidharamayaji for the way he has handled it.
04:42I think it is, you know, really marked him up at a higher level.
04:46He is the tallest leader in Karnataka and he has become even more taller today.
04:50Interesting the way you are putting it.
04:51Mr. Sudhakar, you were once with the Congress, you switched to the BJP, you were seen to be
04:55close to Sidharamaya and now the BJP seems to be fishing in troubled waters claiming that
05:00there will be an open war once again in the Congress but the truth is at least the imagery
05:05today, as of today, other two leaders say they will work together.
05:09You are not convinced or is the BJP, shouldn't the BJP be more worried about your own putting
05:14your own house in order in Karnataka instead of worrying what is happening in the Congress?
05:19If there is one party which is very happy with the present political development in Karnataka,
05:26it is our BJP party which has to be very happy politically.
05:32Secondly, Mr. D.K.
05:34Shukumar, the Deputy Chief Minister may have won the chair, the Chief Minister chair, but
05:41it has come with political handcuffs.
05:44Why I say handcuffs is he has to balance.
05:48He has to take on Mr. Sidharamaya's camp on one side, the challenge of his cabinet expansion
05:58is there on the second, he has to manage the Delhi High Command and there is an election
06:05which is not less than 24 months away and at the same time for the first time he will be
06:13put to test about his governance skills.
06:17All along these so many years, Mr. D.K.
06:21Shukumarji was known for his organization skills, political strategy as a political strategist,
06:29as somebody who could manage the resources, who could troubleshoot the party at the time
06:37when they required, but this is the first time he has to handle the state machinery, state
06:46governance, which is not as easy as the political management.
06:52At the same time, when Mr. Sidharamaya, the Honorable Chief Minister, has politely denied the national
07:01role as asked by the High Command, this itself creates a problem for Mr. D.K.
07:08Shukumar to, you know, actually function as the Chief Minister.
07:12So you are saying, you are saying Sidharam...
07:14Knowing both very well, I am damn sure he will be put to test because now there will be
07:22a pressure tactics.
07:23There will be a lot of pressures on him about the expansion.
07:28As it is, the media, they are speculating that there will be four deputy chief ministers.
07:34Out of four deputy chief ministers, three would be from Mr. Sidharamaya's camp.
07:39That itself shows Mr. D.K.
07:42Shukumar will not be given a free hand.
07:44He will not be given a unilateral, unilateral powers.
07:50You are saying, we don't know when...
07:52Okay, I take your point.
07:53You are claiming that he will be handcuffed.
07:55That's how the BJP sees it.
07:57Sandeep Shastri, will D.K.
07:59Shukumar go and become chief minister with his hands tied?
08:05Or do you believe that he has 24 months to prove himself?
08:08This is the real test for D.K.
08:10Shukumar.
08:10And do you believe he will be able to handle the challenges of the various camps in Karnataka?
08:18Rashideep, the new chief minister definitely will have only 24 months because the election
08:26is due in 2028 and he will be seen as the one who will lead the party in the 2028
08:33elections.
08:34Will the new chief minister have challenges?
08:37No shadow of doubt that there will be challenges.
08:40And a range of challenges.
08:43As was said, he would have to do a very delicate balancing act of various factions within the party.
08:54There are a lot of ministerial aspirants and not enough positions.
09:00There will be unhappiness with the allotment of portfolios and the number of ministers made.
09:09And that will have to be dealt with besides the fact that Sidra Mayer has said that he will not
09:15be going into national politics.
09:17So he will continue to be an important force in state politics, though he may sit on the back bench
09:24of the ruling party in the assembly.
09:26He will be an important rival center of power within the party.
09:32All these are a reality which the new chief minister will need to deal with.
09:38And I would believe that the new chief minister, who is in all likelihood going to be D. Keshav Kumar,
09:46has the skills, has the acumen, has the capacity to handle this.
09:51He has always been seen as the troubleshooter of the Congress party.
09:56But the fact that he is a Vokaliga in a state where Sidra Mayer had crafted a wider social engineering
10:04coalition of Dalits or backwards, Kurubas, for example, Muslims, you don't think that's a disadvantage?
10:13Now, that's where Sidra Mayer's role continues to be important.
10:17The holding back of the OBC vote and Rajdeep, we have seen this earlier.
10:24In the last assembly election, a segment of the non-dominant OBC vote went away from the Congress to the
10:31BJP.
10:32And if the Congress was able to do well, it had to do with the vote of the Dalits, with
10:39the votes of the minorities,
10:40a segment of the vote of the Lingayat community, and of course, the division and a significant chunk of the
10:47Vokaliga vote.
10:48Now, yes, this balancing of these various factions will have to be done.
10:53Karnataka has had three deputy chief ministers in the past.
10:57So it's nothing new to have multiple deputy chief ministers in the state.
11:01But that is political accommodation.
11:04But political accommodation for me is not the management of the Rainbow Social Coalition that needs to be done.
11:12Places have to be given to people.
11:14But the mere giving of places to people does not automatically translate itself into support from a particular social group.
11:23The chief minister will have to maintain that social coalition through the way in which he gets the MLAs on
11:31his side
11:32and the way they take forward the welfare programs in the next two years.
11:36Final word from you then, Dinesh Gundu Rao.
11:39Do you concede that this is going to be a big challenge, taking along rival power centers?
11:44According to Minister Sudhakar, there are going to be four deputy chief ministers.
11:48So already there is a tug-of-war that has begun even before the new chief minister is sworn in.
11:54Isn't that a perception problem and a real problem on the ground?
12:01I think Dr. Sudhakar has got a personal hotline to what the high command is thinking and I'm not aware
12:07of that.
12:09But be that as it may, see, every position is a challenge.
12:14And to be a chief minister, it's sort of a challenging job.
12:17And it's not that we've seen how BJP utterly failed.
12:20When the last time when they changed, Mr. Diorappa brought in Burmai, it was a total flop.
12:25And we saw what happened.
12:26But today, see, Shukubar also is not an inexperienced person.
12:32He has been a minister multiple times.
12:34He has held many portfolios.
12:36He has done an excellent job as a minister and as a party president.
12:41And tomorrow, I'm not saying it's official yet.
12:43We don't know.
12:43It has to be, there is a procedure, CLP meeting will take place and it'll be, a person will be
12:49elected, left to the high command.
12:51All those procedures will follow.
12:53But whatever, let's assume that Shukubar is becoming.
12:57So Shukubar has been targeted by BJP.
12:59They put him in jail.
13:00They harassed him.
13:01They wanted him to join the BJP.
13:03You know, all kinds of tricks were tried by the BJP's, you know, dirty works department.
13:08So he never yielded.
13:09So he's a tough guy.
13:10So I think Sudhakar, if he thinks that, you know, he'll not be able to handle it, I think he'll
13:16be in for a surprise.
13:17Second surprise will be the coordination.
13:19I think Sidramanji is, you know, a very mature politician.
13:22I just, I just said, he will not be given a free hand.
13:27I didn't interrupt when you said.
13:29No, no, he says he will not be given a free hand.
13:31He says he will not be given a free hand.
13:33If a captain cannot get his team members, how will a captain perform?
13:39A chief minister, a chief minister is first amongst equals.
13:44That's all.
13:45And we are in a democratic system, not like a dictatorial party like the Bharatiya Janta party,
13:50where whatever high command says, we don't even know the names of chief ministers of many states today
13:54because they are so inconsequential.
13:56But here, let me assure you, it's a smooth transition.
14:00We will work together.
14:02And I think, you know, we will be able to do a good job.
14:06We've been doing a good job.
14:06Let me leave it there.
14:07And we will continue to do a good job.
14:092028 is the real challenge.
14:09There will be challenges, but I think we are ready for it.
14:13Okay, we'll wait and see how that plays out.
14:15But I appreciate my guests joining us.
14:17It's been a big move that the Congress has made there in Karnataka.
14:21The old order yielding place to a slightly less old order.
14:26Let's put it that way.
14:28Let's put it that way.
14:28Let's put it that way.
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