- 11 months ago
John invites John Ryan to share his story about how spiritual hunger and religious zeal brought him into the orbit of Glad Tidings Temple—a prominent charismatic church in Vancouver—and how that same zeal eventually contributed to its collapse. Raised Catholic but turned off by what he experienced, John Ryan recounts his dramatic conversion at a Salvation Army mission and his reluctant but ultimately passionate embrace of the culture at Glad Tidings. He recalls both the vibrant spiritual community and the troubling signs of imbalance and spiritual pride that began to emerge. His story is one of deep conviction, sincere worship, and eventual disillusionment as leadership failures and a shift from scriptural grounding to personality-driven prophecy caused the church to implode.
The conversation explores how large-scale revival efforts, when rooted more in emotionalism, entertainment, and unchecked prophetic voices than in scripture, can lead entire congregations astray—often with devastating financial and emotional consequences. The two Johns reflect on how revival movements repeat many of the same patterns, the tragic cost to sincere believers, and how mature prayer, humility, and biblical discernment are essential in rebuilding after spiritual disappointment. They also discuss the legacy of Reg Layzell, early prophetic movements like the Latter Rain, and how historical awareness can help Christians avoid repeating the same harmful cycles.
00:00 Introduction
0:31 John Ryan’s background and early life in Ontario
2:48 First visit to Glad Tidings and initial reluctance
4:19 Decision to join and early spiritual impact
6:03 Comparing personal journeys and early excitement
7:38 Positive aspects of Glad Tidings: hunger for God, missions, community, worship
12:30 The rise of pride and unhealthy boasting
13:36 Unity of the body, teaching on prophecy, and eschatology
14:10 Departure from scripture and flawed church governance
15:28 Music, business influence, and crowd-building tactics
18:09 Building campaign, fundraising, and large-scale borrowing
20:53 Prophecy over a businessman and resulting financial collapse
24:15 Manipulative prophecies and lack of accountability
28:04 Pastor’s moral failure and congregational split
29:53 Lessons learned and speaking up against wrongdoing
31:15 Emphasis on prayer at Glad Tidings—strengths and weaknesses
36:58 John Collins’ reflections on prayer and authenticity
40:42 Congregational versus personal prayer balance
41:48 Importance of scripture before prayer and Paul’s example
43:34 Reg Lazelle’s leadership and Latter Rain connections
47:53 Structural issues rooted in revival-era influences
48:17 Call to edify the body through prayer for unity and maturity
50:58 Recurring leadership scandals and history repeating itself
53:52 The dangers of elevating leaders to undue reverence
54:58 Advice for former Glad Tidings members
57:21 Closing remarks and resources
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Iden
The conversation explores how large-scale revival efforts, when rooted more in emotionalism, entertainment, and unchecked prophetic voices than in scripture, can lead entire congregations astray—often with devastating financial and emotional consequences. The two Johns reflect on how revival movements repeat many of the same patterns, the tragic cost to sincere believers, and how mature prayer, humility, and biblical discernment are essential in rebuilding after spiritual disappointment. They also discuss the legacy of Reg Layzell, early prophetic movements like the Latter Rain, and how historical awareness can help Christians avoid repeating the same harmful cycles.
00:00 Introduction
0:31 John Ryan’s background and early life in Ontario
2:48 First visit to Glad Tidings and initial reluctance
4:19 Decision to join and early spiritual impact
6:03 Comparing personal journeys and early excitement
7:38 Positive aspects of Glad Tidings: hunger for God, missions, community, worship
12:30 The rise of pride and unhealthy boasting
13:36 Unity of the body, teaching on prophecy, and eschatology
14:10 Departure from scripture and flawed church governance
15:28 Music, business influence, and crowd-building tactics
18:09 Building campaign, fundraising, and large-scale borrowing
20:53 Prophecy over a businessman and resulting financial collapse
24:15 Manipulative prophecies and lack of accountability
28:04 Pastor’s moral failure and congregational split
29:53 Lessons learned and speaking up against wrongdoing
31:15 Emphasis on prayer at Glad Tidings—strengths and weaknesses
36:58 John Collins’ reflections on prayer and authenticity
40:42 Congregational versus personal prayer balance
41:48 Importance of scripture before prayer and Paul’s example
43:34 Reg Lazelle’s leadership and Latter Rain connections
47:53 Structural issues rooted in revival-era influences
48:17 Call to edify the body through prayer for unity and maturity
50:58 Recurring leadership scandals and history repeating itself
53:52 The dangers of elevating leaders to undue reverence
54:58 Advice for former Glad Tidings members
57:21 Closing remarks and resources
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Iden
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, John Ryan, former member
00:47of Glad Tidings.
00:49John, it's good to have you on here and to tell your story about Glad Tidings and beyond
00:55and maybe before.
00:56However, we've not talked too much before we got into the episode, but you reached out
01:02to me after we did an episode on Glad Tidings and wanted to share your story, so I'm very
01:07happy to have you.
01:08Maybe if you could just take a moment and tell everybody a little bit about yourself.
01:12Hi, John.
01:13Thanks for having me.
01:14It's great to be here.
01:16I think there are some lessons that I've learned over the years and some things that we can
01:22glean from my experience at Glad Tidings, so I hope it's helpful to your listeners and viewers.
01:28I was raised in the Catholic Church in Ontario, a small town in Ontario, and Christianity did
01:35not mean much to me, and by the time I was 15 years old, I decided that Christianity was
01:41not the way.
01:42The only Christianity I knew was what I'd seen in the Catholic Church, and from there
01:47I got into quite a dissipated downward spiral of drugs and alcohol, and I ended up kind of
01:54stumbling my way out to Vancouver on the west coast of Canada, Canada's California, and stumbled
02:02into a Salvation Army rescue mission meeting one evening, and I heard the gospel for the
02:10first time, and I became a believer that night.
02:13I called upon the name of the Lord to turn my heart and life over to the Lord, and things
02:18began to change.
02:19I became a new man in Christ, and I attended those mission meetings for about six months.
02:26I was living downtown, and I enjoyed them, but the Lord wanted to lead me on and help
02:31me to grow in my faith, so an acquaintance had told me about Glad Tidings and invited
02:37me to go with him one evening.
02:38He wasn't attending.
02:39In fact, he wasn't serving the Lord, but he said, you'll really enjoy this.
02:43This is a very different experience, so I went to that service.
02:47It was a Sunday evening service, which in those days was an explicitly evangelistic service.
02:54It was intended as outreach to visitors and newcomers.
02:58I'd never seen anything like it in my life.
03:01They had a hundred-voice choir, a huge orchestra, ensemble, and really beautiful, beautiful music,
03:09and when I arrived, they marched me right down to the front and put me, I think, in the second
03:14row from the front, and I was in the middle of this cauldron of very, very zealous, especially
03:20young believers lifting their hands and worshiping the Lord, and I experienced something I'd never
03:27seen before in my life, and it really kind of scared me, and after the service, I determined
03:33in my heart I would never go back there again.
03:36That's not the church for me, but it's interesting, and it's always been a puzzle to me, and I've
03:41pondered about this over the years.
03:44The Lord had other ideas.
03:46In fact, the Lord wanted me to attend Glad Tidings, to join myself to the church, and I
03:52wrestled with God about it for quite some time.
03:55As a young believer, I had laid down my ambition, my money, my family, various lusts and desires
04:07that I had that were not pleasing to the Lord.
04:08I was going through this process of yielding to the Lord and getting sanctified, and the
04:14last thing that the Lord began to deal with me about was joining this church, and I really
04:21didn't want to, and I finally realized, this is something God wants me to do.
04:28This would be over a process of two or three months.
04:30I finally yielded.
04:31I said, okay.
04:32He said out loud to the Lord, okay, I'll go, I'll go, and I decided to go the next Sunday,
04:39and having made that decision, I got home from working night shift.
04:45I was working at a hospital.
04:46I got home in the morning and went to bed, and I laid down in bed, and I read a little bit
04:51of the word before I went to sleep, and I had a tremendous blessing from God.
04:56It was, God was there.
05:01He was really revealing himself to me in a special way, and after that happened, I couldn't
05:07wait to get to church.
05:08I kind of understood why these people were so effusive in their praise and worship to
05:13God.
05:13I wanted to join them.
05:14I wanted to praise the Lord in the same way.
05:17So that began the process.
05:19I kind of knew very definitely that the Lord wanted me to be a part of Glad Tidings, and
05:24as I said, it's been a puzzle because of the things that happened afterward, and my view
05:32of the situation is that there were very serious mistakes made, and I think the church in general
05:38needs to learn from those kinds of mistakes and problems.
05:41But there was also something that was very good there, and I hope we had a chance to
05:45kind of discuss what was it about Glad Tidings that was pleasing to the Lord, and how did
05:52it go astray?
05:53How did it get off the rails?
05:54So that's basically, in a nutshell, how I ended up there.
05:58I'm a little bit different from my peers in that everybody has a journey, and sometimes
06:03that journey takes you into places that people on the outside looking in might say, this is
06:09heresy, and this couldn't have been a God-divine-inspired move of your journey, but everybody has a journey,
06:19and everybody who starts in that journey doesn't always end up in the same place.
06:24So, when you tell your story and you talk about the excitement, it brings back the memories
06:29that I have of the excitement in a very extremely excessively destructive cult.
06:35But I was on fire for God, I thought, and I look back, I have probably many of the same
06:40questions you have about, well, what was that?
06:42Was that really God?
06:44It was a destructive cult, but I was one of the few people that actually read my Bible,
06:49people, and I thought I was going to see God, and this was the way in which I could go find
06:56God, was to go to these services, and I went to the evangelical services that they had,
07:02I went to the prayer meetings, we had Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night in
07:08most of the churches that we attended, and I have to admit, I had some good experiences in those.
07:15Now, were there bad things there?
07:16Yes.
07:16And did it get worse over time?
07:18Absolutely.
07:19But it's my journey, right?
07:22And others who might say that this was all bad, I have to disagree.
07:27There are some good things, and I think good people can produce good things into even the
07:33wrong environments.
07:34Yes, I would agree.
07:36So I've thought about, well, maybe I'll talk about some of the good things that I believe
07:40were there, were present when I began getting involved with the church, and then maybe go through
07:47some of the, what I think are the errors and failures that the church, that emerged over
07:54time and eventually kind of blew up the church completely.
07:57And I think shook a lot of people in their lives.
08:04So I think probably the most important good thing about glad tidings was simply the fact
08:12that there were people there who were hungry for God.
08:15They had a desire for God, and they would seek the Lord.
08:20There was quite an emphasis on prayer.
08:23In fact, I just came across, I don't know if you've seen it, I just came across on YouTube
08:26an old, it's a YouTube reproduction of an old cassette recording of Reg Lazell, who was
08:33the pastor of Glad Tidings until, I think it was 1970.
08:36Speaking about prayer and how important prayer is to a congregation, now I never sat under
08:42his ministry, he had left by the time that I got there.
08:45But it was interesting listening to this old cassette.
08:48Now, he didn't record it back in the 60s.
08:51He had left Glad Tidings and got involved with another church in the States.
08:56And so he, I think he recorded this message in retirement as an older man.
09:02But, you know, listening to at least half of that cassette, I was thinking, you know, that
09:08was, that was pretty good.
09:09That was pretty sound.
09:12So there were people who were, really had a hunger for God, a desire for God, and in a
09:20sense, God met them.
09:24There was a, there was an emphasis on missions that I think was good.
09:27Uh, it wasn't a hundred percent sound, but, you know, there's a desire to take the gospel
09:32to the nations and people really were sacrificial in their giving and their sending.
09:39Uh, I ended up, one of the reasons perhaps the Lord led me to Glad Tidings was so that
09:43I could meet my, my future wife.
09:46She was the daughter of a man who had been a missionary in Taiwan.
09:50And eventually my wife and I ended up going to Taiwan as missionaries sent out by Glad Tidings.
09:55We weren't working with Glad Tidings church plants in Taiwan.
09:58We worked with a para-church ministry there, but, uh, we were sent out as missionaries from
10:03Taiwan and that was a wonderful experience.
10:05We spent about 12 years there, really enjoyed it for the most part.
10:10And, um, it was a blessing.
10:12And so, uh, you know, I met her and the whole connection with Taiwan came about through,
10:18through being involved with Glad Tidings.
10:20Um, another thing, uh, that was good was, uh, there was a real community there and I found,
10:26um, there was quite an intake of people my age, young people at the time that I came into
10:32the church and we really had good fellowship.
10:35There were a lot of like-minded young people and, uh, I was more or less all alone out here
10:40on the coast.
10:41And, uh, it was, it was great to have that supportive community.
10:46Um, and then the, the, another thing that I say would say was wonderful was that, uh,
10:53they made the worship and the praise of God glorious.
10:58You know, the experience of being in an auditorium full of people who are really worshiping the
11:04Lord and praising the Lord with all of their heart and skillful musicians playing and, and
11:09really competent singers leading, um, really was tremendous.
11:15It, it, it made an impression on visitors, uh, when, when the Lord is lifted up, when, when
11:20his praise is made glorious, it speaks to people's hearts.
11:24I had family members and friends come and visit and I, I knew that they were being touched.
11:29They were being put under conviction by, uh, Jesus being lifted up.
11:34Now that said, it got to the point where, where the message became praise, you know, we're,
11:41we're preaching praise rather than preaching Christ.
11:45I mean, it wasn't that stark or blunt, but, but it seemed as if, um, the emphasis became more
11:51and more on our message of praise.
11:53You know, we really got something here and, uh, obviously you, you can't do that.
12:00You can't get away from lifting up the Lord and lifting up Christ, but there was, there
12:05was something there that was quite special.
12:06And in fact, it, it has affected many, many churches around the world.
12:10And they, you know, unfortunately, this is one of the, the drawbacks or failures was
12:16there, there became a boastfulness about this.
12:19Like we're being talked about all over the world.
12:21People are coming from all over the world to see what we're doing.
12:24Isn't that wonderful?
12:25Like we're the people.
12:27Um, so pride began to creep in and, uh, that was not a good thing.
12:33That was quite unhealthy.
12:35There was a, there was a real, I think, an understanding, a comprehension of the unity of
12:39the body of Christ.
12:40Um, there, there, there wasn't this, um, kind of denominational affiliation and, uh, identity.
12:49There are pros and cons, I guess, to, to, uh, denominations, but, uh, the Glad Tidings, uh,
12:55viewpoint was we're part of the body of Christ.
12:57We see ourselves connected to the whole body.
13:00Um, which I think was a good thing that got into my heart.
13:04And then, uh, things that I had never heard of before as a, raised as a Catholic, never
13:10having read the Bible, actually, uh, things about eschatology and Israel and the promises
13:16of God, the faithfulness of God, these things, uh, I began to learn about and, uh, not all
13:24the teaching was sound, some of it was pretty flaky actually, but I think the, the, the belief
13:33and the teaching that God has given us information about what's to come in the last days, uh, we
13:40shouldn't ignore it.
13:41Those things are there for our, our profit.
13:44And, uh, so my eyes began to get open to those things, which was good also.
13:50So those are, those are some of the positive things that have stayed with me.
13:53And, um, I believe the Lord did good things in my heart and my life.
13:58However, as you know, uh, things went off the rails badly.
14:05And, uh, I would say the most significant issue, the, the, the root problem of all the problems
14:13that came along was, uh, departure from the word in subtle ways and not so subtle ways.
14:20So, for example, uh, church government, we, we just, for some reason, uh, didn't really
14:29pay attention to what the scripture says about, uh, for example, qualifications of elders.
14:34So we had a board of businessmen, successful people who, as it turned out, were more or
14:42less yes men for the, the lead pastor who was the kind of the Moses of the church.
14:48Um, I think when a church goes in that direction in terms of government and leadership, it's,
14:53it's setting itself up for inevitable, absolutely inevitable failure and problems and people
15:00getting hurt and so on.
15:02So, um, and then there were other kind of similar issues arising from the same root, which is,
15:09well, you know, um, we know what the word of God says, but we're going to kind of disregard
15:15it or supplement it or, you know, choose our own path in any way.
15:22So, um, I think this is common to many, many churches and religious systems that go off
15:29the rails, right?
15:31Exactly.
15:31You know, I'm both a musician, if you can't tell from the instruments behind me, and I'm
15:37a businessman.
15:37And so I get everything that you're talking about as a musician, whenever you are entertaining
15:44people in church or outside of church, whenever you start to learn ways to excite the crowds,
15:53it feels good as a musician, it feels good.
15:56I don't care who you are.
15:57If you're playing, that's the way it is.
15:58And there are certain techniques that you learn over time.
16:02You learn by playing them that there are certain beats and rhythms and ways to introduce those
16:08beats and rhythms that excite the crowd.
16:10And as a musician, you really like this.
16:14However, if the focus were just to be on that and everybody's coming to hear the music, it's
16:19off balance.
16:20You have to have, like you said, there has to be a balance.
16:23Now take the business side of me.
16:25That balance, whenever you start to see the excited crowds, as a businessman, you want more
16:31of it, because you can attract bigger crowds.
16:33You can get more people excited.
16:35And a businessman in church, with all of the business ideas, such as marketing and sales
16:41techniques, etc., it can be both good and bad, because in the bad sense, you might become
16:48hyper-focused on, well, let's build a bigger crowd.
16:51Let's get more people.
16:52Your intentions may be good, but your methods may be business-minded instead of, you know,
16:58minded on the church or the gospel.
17:01And we had an organization that was funding a lot of what we see today called the Full
17:06Gospel Businessmen.
17:08Not many people make that connection, but this is a bunch of people who are businessmen who
17:13know how to market, who know how to do sales, who know the techniques for drawing the bigger
17:18crowds, and it worked.
17:20They brought masses of people.
17:22But you started to watch, as this started to take place, you'd watch they become very
17:27imbalanced.
17:28And you mentioned the, I think you used the phrase, the Moses figure.
17:33We had the Elijah figure in our churches, but if you go back through the Lateran churches,
17:37you had the Moseses, the Elijahs, the Davids, the, you can almost name a biblical figure and
17:42some guy saying, I'm he.
17:44And that's the problem.
17:47It turns into Corinthian worship.
17:49And whenever they want to become these super apostles, and they can see that, well, I've
17:54got these businessmen, I'm going to leverage these guys because they know how to draw the
17:58crowds.
17:58I have these entertainers who can appease the crowds.
18:02And that whole combination makes exactly the scenario that you're describing.
18:07Yes, this sort of came to a head, you might say.
18:09They, in the late 70s, the pastor at the time, she is now deceased.
18:17She had this vision to build a new sanctuary, a new tabernacle.
18:22The church was called Glad Tidings Temple at the time, and they wanted a bigger auditorium.
18:30So they began this campaign to get the congregation involved and excited and giving.
18:36It was a very giving congregation.
18:38They used to encourage people to double tithe, and then on top of that, give for missions
18:44as well.
18:45My father-in-law, who died a couple of years ago at the age of 98, he came from Holland after
18:51World War II and almost immediately joined Glad Tidings in its very early days.
18:56He gave and gave and gave.
18:58But when he died, there was virtually nothing to leave to his daughter or his grandchildren.
19:07You know, he just gave it all away, and I don't think that was wise.
19:11But anyway, so this idea, we're going to have a beautiful new building, and everybody got
19:15behind it.
19:15And they had a pretty slick campaign for encouraging people to give.
19:21We had a couple of very wealthy business people in the church, and they kind of kicked things
19:25off by making enormous donations, which made the news.
19:30We had a special fundraising Sunday, and apparently it was the largest single fundraising day in
19:39any church in Canadian history.
19:42And we thought, wow, this is really great.
19:44We're amazing people here.
19:47So at the same time, the economy was becoming very unstable.
19:52And in the early 80s, you may recall, or you may have read that interest rates began to go up.
19:58Inflation was hitting hard.
20:00Interest rates in the U.S. and Canada, borrowing rates went up to close to 20%.
20:04But just before that trend began, the church decided to borrow, I think, to allow borrowing
20:13of up to $4 million, which at the time was an enormous amount of money.
20:17And I distinctly remember the manipulation of the congregational meeting to encourage people
20:24to vote to borrow this amount of money, and the vast majority voted to approve it.
20:30But I do remember Laura Lynn's father voting against it.
20:35I voted against it.
20:36There were a handful of people who voted against this huge borrowing.
20:40And Laura Lynn's dad, he was kind of courageous that way.
20:44He was willing to go against the flow, and I think she's got some of that in her.
20:50Now, the interesting thing, John, is at the same time, they were having a presbytery meeting.
20:54And so these prophets were coming from other places, and people would seek the Lord and
21:00fast for several days and hope to hear, through one of these prophets, a word directly from
21:05God, a call to ministry, an impartation of gifting, some kind of word helping them in
21:13life or setting a direction.
21:14And one of these prophets, I remember very clearly, a Sunday morning, he stood up and
21:21he called up my boss.
21:23Now, one of these elders in the church, elders, I'd say, in airports, leaders, board members.
21:32He was a businessman.
21:33He had a retail business.
21:34He had hired me, and he was very good to me.
21:37He was like a father to me.
21:38But he had opened one store, and then he expanded, opened a second store, and he wanted to continue
21:45opening stores.
21:46Well, this prophet came, and they called him and his wife forward.
21:49And this prophet prophesied over my boss, I see your name on stores from coast to coast.
21:57So in other words, your business chain is going to expand, says the Lord, from Atlantic to
22:03Pacific.
22:04It's going to be everywhere.
22:05I think that's what my boss wanted to hear.
22:09I think he was very excited to hear this.
22:11And so not long after that, he went and borrowed money to open a third store.
22:19And just at that time, interest rates began to move up and up.
22:23And as interest rates went up, people were being laid off, losing their jobs.
22:30They were spending less money.
22:32The type of product my boss was selling, people were not, it was the last thing they were wanting
22:37to buy in the economic circumstances.
22:40And business began to go in the wrong direction for him.
22:44And he ended up, he had a beautiful home, beautiful home in the most expensive part of
22:49the old part of Vancouver.
22:52He had a nine-foot grand piano in there, all kinds of beautiful things in his home.
22:56And he loved, he was a very hospitable man.
22:59He'd have huge groups of people over to his home, having fellowship.
23:02He just loved entertaining and showing hospitality to people.
23:09He lost that home.
23:10The bank, they saw what was going on.
23:12They saw the declining revenue from month to month.
23:15They were watching and they said, we want our money back.
23:17We want our loan and we want it now.
23:18I think they gave him 30 days or something.
23:22And in order to keep his business, he had to sell that house.
23:26And because mortgage rates had gone up, I think 15 to 20%, the market was in very dire
23:34shape.
23:35And so he had to sell his beautiful home, really at a sacrificial price.
23:39He essentially gave it away and move into a rented apartment.
23:44He held on to his business.
23:46It eventually dwindled to one store.
23:48So instead of three, he ended up with one.
23:50And he continued working hard in that store for the rest of his working life.
23:55And I think he had to work well beyond retirement age simply to maintain himself and his wife.
24:01He should have been able to retire in luxury, actually.
24:06Not that that's necessarily a good thing.
24:07But had this event not happened, he would have been in better shape.
24:12So the church itself had been manipulated into borrowing a huge amount of money at the very
24:22worst possible time because the church then was facing these enormous and growing mortgage
24:27payments.
24:28My boss nearly lost his business and lost his home, all because of these sort of prophetic
24:38pronouncements that everything was going to be glorious and great and God was doing a
24:42great thing.
24:43That has been a very, very deep lesson for me, watching that.
24:48Now, to my boss's credit, he never complained.
24:52He never blamed the Lord for what happened to him.
24:55He continued to serve the Lord, but it was very, very hard for him.
25:00And I don't know whether, you know, I never talked to him about it.
25:03I don't know whether he ever said, what was with that guy who came?
25:06He's a big name.
25:07He's still active to this day.
25:09He's got a big name ministry, School of the Prophets, so-called.
25:13Did he ever come back and say, you know, I'm really sorry I steered you in the wrong
25:17direction.
25:17I nearly ruined your life.
25:19I really apologize for that.
25:20Is there anything I can do to compensate?
25:22I don't think that happened, John.
25:24I don't think it happens in general.
25:26This is one of the things that really deeply saddens me because I worked for years.
25:31I worked with support groups of people who were escaping and I was watching, you know,
25:36the young people, it's different because they can go get a job.
25:39They can build something for themselves.
25:41They can build up a retirement, but some of the old people leaving literally had nothing
25:46and they were robbed of pretty much everything.
25:50I know families who the minister told them that or persuaded them.
25:56I don't know if he outright said it, but convinced them basically to sell their businesses.
26:00And so they had, you know, some of them had a good flourishing business and sold their
26:05business.
26:05And as you know, these shysters, they want to get all of the money they can.
26:11So all this money goes into the church because the end of days is coming.
26:15End of days doesn't come.
26:17And like you said, there's no apology.
26:18There are families who are destroyed for this.
26:22But even down to just the simple people who aren't business minded or entrepreneurs, even
26:30their life savings, their retirement.
26:31In today's world, it's the 401ks.
26:34Many of these are given to the church because they're convinced that the world is soon to
26:38be ending and you don't need this, especially in the doomsday versions of the cult like the
26:43Branhamites.
26:44It's really sad to watch it happen.
26:47And one of the things that you pointed out that I want to mention is he went to the businessman
26:53and said that your business, I expect to flourish.
26:56However, that conversation went.
26:57Can you imagine reading in the Bible of an Old Testament prophet going to some random
27:02guy and saying, I expect your cattle, you're going to gain 200 head of cattle in your flock
27:08and in your herd.
27:10You don't find this.
27:11What you do find is God will send his blessings to the entire people and the entire people
27:17will be blessed if you follow the statutes of God.
27:20And if you fail to follow the statutes of God, the Old Testament described all of the
27:24curses that ensued.
27:27If you're living in that mindset, that's the way it is.
27:29You get the blessing if you mind God or the curse if you don't.
27:33But we're under the new covenant.
27:35We're under the gospel.
27:36And so none of that even applies.
27:38But these men, they want to get the status of an Old Testament prophet or a New Testament
27:45apostle and then apply the same sort of divination, I guess you would call it.
27:51I have this crystal ball I can look in and see your future, and you're going to be blessed
27:56if you give it to the church.
27:58Yeah, this happens.
27:59That seems to be the word faith paradigm.
28:02So anyway, we got the church built under this cloud of rising interest rates and ballooning
28:09mortgage payments.
28:11And at the same time, I think it was 82, it was revealed that the pastor had been living
28:18in sin.
28:19And she, I think, unwillingly left her position.
28:26And the church was in quite a state then because we had all been conditioned to think that she
28:30really had the mind of God.
28:31She was apostolic.
28:34In fact, I remember my boss, he was a prominent figure in the church.
28:38He was on the board and he was a very charismatic man.
28:43But he used to say to me, I'm so glad we have a pastor who knows the mind of God.
28:48And even as a young believer, I remember thinking to myself, aren't we supposed to have the mind
28:53of God ourselves?
28:54Are we supposed to put all of our faith in on this pastoral figure?
28:59It just didn't seem right to me.
29:00Anyway, so she was found to be living in very serious sin.
29:05She had to leave.
29:07And it was controversial.
29:09There were people who either didn't believe that she ever could do such a thing and they
29:14remained loyal to her.
29:16Others were so hurt and upset that they left.
29:19So the congregation kind of went through a process of splitting about three different ways.
29:24And one large segment of the population began to go in the word faith direction.
29:28There was talk at one point of Benny Hinn's brother, Henry Hinn, coming to pastor the church,
29:35proving that things can always get worse.
29:39And others just left and went to other places.
29:47One of the good things that came out of that, and I think your own life and ministry are kind
29:53of an indicator of this kind of thing, is that even these bad things that happen, God can use
29:59them for good.
29:59So there was a whole generation, I would say, of young men my age and somewhat older who
30:05learned some pretty important lessons through that whole process.
30:09They took those lessons with them.
30:11You know, in conversation with these guys over the years, one of the things I think many
30:15determined in their hearts, and I have felt the same way, never again am I going to be
30:20involved in a fellowship in which I'm just going to keep quiet if I think something is wrong.
30:24If I think something's wrong, I'm going to speak up.
30:28And churches need this.
30:30They need men who are willing to stand and stand alone if necessary to speak the truth.
30:35So I think in a way there was an inoculation of many people through this experience.
30:42And ultimately, the Lord can use it, I believe is using it, to strengthen the church.
30:48Although it was a terrible phase in this particular organization.
30:52God has been able to use it for good.
30:58So that's another one of the things that's come out of it.
31:02But the church was in turmoil for years.
31:05And it's still there.
31:06There's still a Glad Tidings church.
31:08I think it's very diminished compared with what it once was, at least, you know, externally.
31:14So one of the things that I really took to heart from my experience at Glad Tidings, and it stayed with me over the years, is, I guess, an understanding or realization of the importance of spending time with God and seeking His face and praying.
31:39Now, if I can, I'd like to just talk a little bit about prayer at the church, because there was an emphasis on prayer.
31:50And it was partly good, partly bad.
31:52I think the teaching on prayer was lacking.
31:56So prayer was thrown out there as just a word, but, you know, we need to pray.
32:01And they would have prayer before the services.
32:04They'd have an hour of prayer, congregational prayer.
32:07But it got to the point where it became a legalistic thing.
32:10And I've heard of people actually being shooed into the prayer room, like they're maybe out in the lobby of the church or out on the street talking to friends.
32:18And ministers are going out saying, get in the prayer room.
32:20You belong in the prayer room.
32:24And I noticed in the prayer room that people were there, but some would have their day timer open.
32:30You know, the day timers that they used to use, kind of a binder with a calendar for the month ahead.
32:37And people would be organizing their day timer in the prayer room.
32:42So they were there.
32:43They were seen to be there.
32:44But were they there in spirit?
32:46I'm not sure.
32:48Interestingly, this same pastor who had to leave because of this deep immorality, she was often the first one in the prayer room, right up to the end, right up to the last Sunday that she was in the church.
33:02She made a show of being, you know, very spiritual and leading the way.
33:09But at the same time, she was carrying on.
33:12And so there was really, really deep black hypocrisy going on there.
33:18So people, many people were there in the prayer room because it was the tradition.
33:25It was the thing to do.
33:26And how much genuine prayer was going on, I'm not sure.
33:31But I do believe, and it's kind of deep in my soul, that prayer is very important.
33:36I've since come to do some study on prayer that I believe has been very beneficial to me and is beneficial for the church.
33:45There's tremendous teaching and example regarding prayer in the epistles of Paul.
33:51In nearly every epistle, Paul mentions that he's praying for the people of God.
33:57And he tells us what he's praying about, what he's asking for.
34:00And if you examine the prayer life of Paul, you'll see a tremendous, sound, healthy example and exhortation there as to what pleases God in prayer and what we ought to be looking for.
34:17And I'll just leave it at that.
34:19But if ever you want to have a session talking about this, I've written a book about it.
34:24And this is my modest mission in life now.
34:31Very much a big part of my life is praying for the church.
34:34Their needs are so great.
34:35And these challenges that we're talking about, these deceptions and errors and offenses that happen in the house of God, the Lord sees it all.
34:50He knows.
34:51And sometimes I believe he's furious with it.
34:55He's really, really unhappy.
34:56He loves his people.
34:57He loves his bride.
34:58And he hates to see his bride exploited, made merchandise, deceived, led astray.
35:11God hates this.
35:12He hates it.
35:14And so he's doing a work.
35:16He's continuing to build his church.
35:18He will not stop doing that.
35:19And we need to come to maturity, don't we?
35:21We need to stop being little infants blown around by winds of doctrine and by deceivers.
35:28We need to grow up.
35:30And I believe we are.
35:32I believe what you're doing is helping people to grow up.
35:35Let's not be deceived anymore.
35:39Let's believe God for sound doctrine, sound living, holy living, and live in ways and serve the Lord in ways that are pleasing to him and according to his word.
35:52Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
36:06You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
36:14On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
36:28You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
36:35If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
36:41And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
36:48On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
36:53I'm glad you brought up the prayer.
36:55You may be the first person I've had on here who has actually brought this up.
36:59But in my journey out of the cult that we escaped, that was one of the milestones.
37:05I had several milestones of things that just really shook me and woke me up.
37:09It wasn't a single thing that caused me to wake up.
37:12It was just this overwhelming, this is a mess, everything's wrong.
37:16Why is it like this?
37:17That kind of feeling was hitting me.
37:19One of which, one of the items that hit me was the prayer.
37:24Like I said, I read the Bible.
37:26I read it over and over as a child, read it over and over, even more after leaving the cult.
37:32And before leaving, I came to this passage and it just really stopped me.
37:37There's a passage in, I think it's Matthew, where Jesus says, when you pray, don't be
37:42like the hypocrites who pray standing where, basically where you can be seen.
37:47Praying just to be seen praying.
37:49And I got to thinking about the prayer in the way that it was structured in the churches.
37:56And it was like, it was like a big deal.
37:58There were specific people that got called on to pray.
38:01And you could tell that they had rehearsed that prayer so many times that it was almost
38:08scripted.
38:09And some of them may have even been reading from a script because we were manipulated to
38:14where you had to close your eyes when you pray and you couldn't look at the person praying.
38:18And so I'm standing here watching this happening and I'm thinking, this just feels awful.
38:25And that thought exploded into several other similar thoughts.
38:32We had, often there were people who claimed that they had the gift of prophecy or visions
38:37or whatnot.
38:38Usually they were ridiculed because we had a central figure that was supposed to be the
38:42ultimate prophecy and vision source.
38:45But some of them had it.
38:47And their prophecies, when they had them, weren't anything towards the development of a Christian.
38:53It might be some random thing.
38:55Like you said, the businessman, your business is going to grow.
38:58Well, how does that help the other person who's standing there in the church?
39:01It doesn't.
39:02Many of the prophecies that I was examining from William Branham, none of it really was
39:07intended for bettering the church.
39:09It was intended to show him as a prophet.
39:12In other words, the focus was on the prophet more than it was the prophecy.
39:16And both weren't focused on God.
39:18And all of this thought stemmed for me from prayer because we were trained and manipulated
39:24that we had to have this outward expression to be shown as a Christian.
39:28We need to be seen praying.
39:30We need to be seen in this hype, this excitement, these signs, these wonders, all of this stuff.
39:36And my nature isn't like that.
39:38I don't like to be boastful.
39:40In fact, everything that I'm doing that you see on the podcast, it's a little bit out of
39:44my element because I'm usually the guy that, in a party, I'm going to sit in the corner
39:48and sip coffee and watch everybody else make fools of themselves.
39:52I'm not the one who gets out in the front, right?
39:55So my nature's not like this.
39:57But even whenever I was going through this thought, even as I was thinking that, I was
40:05thinking how whenever I pray, I don't want anybody to see me.
40:08I don't want anybody to know this is me alone with God.
40:11This is my personal relationship.
40:14And I think that's the biggest part that's missed in the foundation that was laid by
40:20Branhamism.
40:21It wasn't about the relationship of the individual with God.
40:24It was the relationship between the individual, those in the fivefold ministry, and their direct
40:31channel to God.
40:32So you had this bypassing channel where me, I wanted to go straight to the source, man.
40:37Well, you know, I believe it's not a question of either or.
40:42I think there's a place for both.
40:44Before Jesus ascended, he told his disciples, don't leave Jerusalem.
40:48You wait.
40:50Something's coming.
40:51It's going to be wonderful.
40:52You wait.
40:53And so they gathered together and they spent 10 days together in prayer.
40:57And in the early church, there were congregational prayer meetings.
41:01But there also was personal devotion.
41:05And I think the church needs both.
41:07I think there's a place for both.
41:09But we need to be very careful about motivation.
41:12And churches need to be very careful as to what sort of motivation they cultivate in people.
41:22And so a church culture can develop so that people understand that appearance is what
41:28counts, you know.
41:30But it's also possible to teach people that this is really what prayer is about.
41:35This is what we're doing in prayer.
41:37We exhort you and encourage you to cultivate your own personal relationship with the Lord,
41:41which, by the way, while we're on the topic, they very much pitched prayer as being kind
41:48of the be-all and end-all.
41:49Prayer is so important.
41:51And I've come to understand that before we even get to prayer, and far more important
41:57than prayer itself, is listening to the Lord through His Word, receiving His Word, receiving
42:02His truth, meditating on His truth.
42:06Without that, we can't really even pray or write.
42:10We ought to be praying according to the will of God.
42:13And if we're not listening to Him, if we're not paying attention to what He's saying to
42:16us, we're not going to have a very good conception of His will.
42:20And the other thing I'll say on this subject briefly is that, looking again at the example
42:26of Paul, his praying was almost entirely about edifying the body of Christ.
42:32He was praying for people that they would grow up into the Lord, that they would overcome
42:37in life, and that he could present them pure and blameless before the Lord.
42:41He had a heart of love for God's people, and this led him to pray.
42:47And I think his prayer also helped him to love God's people, desiring that they would, that
42:53we would live lives that are pleasing to the Lord.
42:57That was the important thing.
42:58And I think he sets a tremendous example for it.
43:03It's actually authoritative.
43:04It's not just another thing to consider when we're going to prayer.
43:08He says, follow me as I follow Christ.
43:10He says it about 10 different ways in his apostles.
43:13What you see in me, you do that.
43:16And we ought not to ignore his example in prayer.
43:20So he was edifying, he was loving, he was persistent.
43:27And these are things that are very, very important.
43:32So anyway, I want to talk for just a minute, if we may, about Reg Lazell.
43:37You probably know more about him than I do, but I always found him kind of a fascinating
43:42person.
43:43When I joined the church, he had left.
43:46I think he got pushed out by his successor, who then blew up the church.
43:50Um, that's, that's what I hear.
43:53I can't prove it.
43:54I don't know it for sure, but he essentially had built the church.
43:57Now he was involved with the latter rain.
43:59He went up to North Battleford, I believe, to see what was going on.
44:03He had been kind of crying out to the Lord for revival in his own way.
44:08I think he had established in his own life and ministry, some, some, some healthy habits
44:14like seeking the Lord and prayer.
44:16But, uh, as I understand it, he, he was affected by the latter rain movement, but maybe to a
44:26lesser degree, I don't think he went as wildly into excess and error as some of the others
44:32did.
44:32But, and I've even heard, uh, I can't prove this either, but I've heard that some of the,
44:37uh, the other latter rain prophets so-called had actually prophesied that he would die because
44:44he was not paying attention to them.
44:47He wasn't taking their direction.
44:48And if the story goes that he just laughed when he heard this, so he wasn't buying that
44:53nonsense.
44:54So, um, he had his issues and I think he, he, he would have done better to stay much more
45:03closely to the word.
45:04Um, but I don't think my impression is that he didn't go as far beyond the word outside
45:13of the word into excess and extremism and error as some of these characters did.
45:19The other thing I want to mention is that, you know, William Branham, his name was mentioned
45:25from time to time.
45:25The same, uh, boss that I had, who was my mentor and like a father to me, he spoke very
45:31reverentially of William Branham.
45:33He'd been to Branham meetings and, uh, he, you know, he thought Branham was the real deal.
45:41Uh, and I think most people who knew of Branham at Glad Tidings had that attitude, but he never,
45:47to my knowledge, he never came to the church.
45:49And I don't think, uh, I don't think his teachings were, were, um, repeated at Glad Tidings.
45:56I don't, but I don't really know.
45:58But, uh, Reg Lazell was an interesting figure because he, he was sort of, in a way, he, uh,
46:04he was his own man.
46:05He, he was not one to go with the crowd.
46:08He wanted God as he perceived having God to be.
46:13Uh, but if he felt something wasn't right, he, he wouldn't go along with it.
46:17And he wasn't afraid to say that's not right.
46:19That doesn't mean he was perfect either.
46:21You know, I've not done a deep dive on Lazell yet.
46:24But I just know the name from, basically from the research into the latter rain, you'd find
46:29his church and the Glad Tidings mentioned.
46:32As I understand it, he became, at least during the early years of latter rain, his church became
46:37a hub on the West Coast.
46:39And he was inviting other latter rain leaders, you know, people who were involved in the latter
46:45rain revivals.
46:45But it wasn't that uncommon, especially during the early years.
46:50It wasn't until the assemblies of God and other denominations started to sanction the latter rain
46:55that many people kind of pulled back from some of the, some of the real heresies that were
47:00being taught with latter rain.
47:02But if I understand it correctly, and I'm no expert on Reg Lazell by no means, but if I
47:08understand it correctly, he did adopt some of the key structural foundations that latter rain
47:13introduced, which in some ways, I think, led to part of the problem we see today.
47:19I think in the early years, the five-fold ministry was big with Reg Lazell.
47:25And I can't confirm it yet, but I have hints that he was also involved with at least some
47:31of the manifested Sons of God doctrines, which ultimately became the source of Branham's
47:37destruction.
47:38This notion is largely what enabled people like Jim Jones of People's Temple to take full
47:44control and authority over their people.
47:47So it's really sad when you think of that.
47:50Now, he may have reformed after this, I don't know, but the limit to my knowledge is basically
47:55from reading thousands of newspaper articles and magazines, and I'd see the name and Glad
48:01Tidings Church pop up.
48:03So there's definitely a connection, and it's worth me digging deeper, but I still have,
48:09he's one of, I don't know, probably 2,000 people I need to dig deeper into.
48:13So I'm thinking, you know, really my desire and my modest mission is to help to edify the
48:19body of Christ.
48:20The Lord has a plan and a purpose for his people, and of course there are red herrings and diversions
48:33and deceptions and all sorts of things that, and personalities and spirits that are seeking
48:40to interfere with what God's doing.
48:42And I don't have all the answers by any means, you know, I would hesitate to stand in front
48:49of a group of people and say, okay, this is the way it ought to be, this is the right
48:53way, you know.
48:55But one thing I can do, and I would exhort God's people to do, if they care for the church
49:00and they don't want to see error, they want to see soundness, they want to see God really
49:04truly glorified in the church, to see people truly edified and to fulfill, each member to
49:12fulfill God's will for their life and to please God.
49:17One thing we can do is we can ask God and say, Lord, help us, help us to grow, help your
49:23body to come to true unity, help your body to come to true maturity in Christ, to grow
49:29up into Christ in all things.
49:31And I believe that kind of prayer, calling upon the Lord persistently, because this is
49:40his will, when Jesus said, pray like this, thy kingdom come, thy will be done.
49:45I think this is much of what he's talking about, is the actual coming together and building
49:50up and preparation of his bride, whom he loves.
49:55He gave himself for his bride, the church.
49:58And so we can't go wrong if we apply ourselves to biblical, edifying, loving, persistent prayer
50:14and seeking the Lord for the good of his people, because that will, in the wisdom of God, it
50:21makes a difference.
50:22It will help.
50:22It will help God's people.
50:23It will bring forth in the church what the Lord wants to see.
50:27And I believe we, it's a necessity, actually.
50:31You know, the Lord, he's able to do everything he wants to do without us, but he's chosen
50:37to work through us.
50:39And so we, I think we need to learn to be willing to do our part to help build up the body of Christ.
50:47And, uh, as we do, uh, I believe we, we will see growth, true growth that pleases the Lord
50:54and, um, coming to maturity, no, uh, no longer infants, but it, you know, what amazes me is
51:01to see the, the same pattern that I saw at Glad Tidings.
51:05It just repeats again and again and again, you know, uh, nearly every week now you hear of
51:11some congregation, especially in North America, because that's where we get most of the news
51:16from going through similar things.
51:18Oh, our pastor turns out he was, he was playing around on the side all these years.
51:24It's becoming epidemic.
51:26Maybe it's, maybe we're just with social media, we're becoming more conscious of these things.
51:30But, uh, it, it seems to me as if more and more of this kind of stuff is coming to light,
51:36which is a good thing.
51:37We don't want it to continue.
51:39Um, but it's like, can we not learn from history?
51:43Can we not, can we not say, you know, we see what happened at that place, at that congregation
51:4820, 30, 50 years ago.
51:50Let's avoid that.
51:52Let's, you know, let's have a, uh, let's do things differently.
51:55There don't seem to be a lot of congregations, um, willing to learn those lessons, but thank
52:01you for, uh, for teaching them, you know, for putting the information out there.
52:05I think it's, it's very, very helpful and important.
52:08The most fascinating part of history for me is that it repeats itself.
52:12I have people who often they'll say that things like it was so much better back then.
52:17We used to let our children's play around in the streets, on the neighborhoods, and we
52:22didn't have to worry about them.
52:23We could just let them roam free.
52:25Well, I'm reading through all these newspapers and right here in my city back in the 1900s,
52:31brutal, brutal things were happening to children on the streets.
52:34In the city.
52:36And it's just the difference between now and then, like you said, we have access to
52:40information that we didn't have back then.
52:42What I have learned in all of my research of history is that people are people and people
52:48have people problems.
52:49It doesn't matter who you are.
52:51The problem with this type of religion is that it takes humans who have people problems
52:56and it elevates them into such a status where we, we give them undue reverence and they're
53:03humans, just like I'm a human.
53:04But we have given so many people this undue reverence.
53:08And what happens is they, once they get put up on that pedestal, now they, by design, have
53:15to remain on the pedestal.
53:16And so they have to create this perfect image and they have, like you said, the, the people
53:21who are coming to every prayer meeting, even though the bad things are going on behind the
53:26scenes, well, they have to put on sort of a stage act themselves to try to maintain this
53:31elite status that they've been given.
53:33And, and the whole system is just flawed.
53:35In my opinion, humans are humans and should never have been given the, the amount of reverence
53:41that we had, but it's sad to watch.
53:44And yes, the history repeats itself, but I think if enough people look at the mistakes
53:50of history, they can correct the mistakes before they happen in the future.
53:54So, very glad to have you on the show to talk through all of this, but right before we got
54:00on, you mentioned that there was a community of people who were former members of GLAD
54:05Tidings.
54:06And I wanted to ask you if you had some advice for those people, what would your advice be?
54:11Well, they're all well advanced in years now.
54:15I'm one of the younger ones in the group.
54:17Almost all of them have very fond recollections.
54:21You know, those, those were the good old days and for most people who have left GLAD
54:26Tidings, in all of their travels over the last 45 years or so, they haven't really come
54:33across anything to compare with those glorious worship services, you know?
54:37So they, they, they kind of, there's a hole in their heart, I would, I would say, but my,
54:44my advice to them would be, um, be honest about the facts, uh, learn the lessons that we can
54:56learn from our experience at GLAD Tidings.
55:00It, it wasn't all bad.
55:01There were some very good things there and, and, and don't live in the past.
55:06You know, you can't go back.
55:07It's impossible to go back.
55:09And it wasn't as great as, uh, we may think it was in our recollection, but think about
55:15apply yourself to what God is doing now.
55:18You know, I, this is another part of my modest mission is really exhorting, encouraging, teaching
55:24older people, retired people who have a very precious commodity, which is time.
55:29So they're no longer, uh, they're no longer driven by the necessities of raising a family
55:35and earning income and so on.
55:37And those are all legitimate things that we need to do.
55:39But in retirement, uh, believers have time and the headspace and you don't have to go
55:46anywhere.
55:46You can do this in your own living room, but to be mindful of the work that God is doing
55:52today, he is building his church and the effectual fervent prayer of his people, righteous
55:58people avails much.
56:01And each one of us can make a contribution to the building up of the body of Christ in
56:07love.
56:08Uh, each part should be doing its work.
56:10And so, um, older people aren't off the hook.
56:14We have a responsibility.
56:16We have a calling and I believe we can be very, very effectual.
56:20I believe, um, God is very, very pleased to hear prayers that seek the good of his people,
56:26the building up of his body, according to his word, according to the example that Jesus
56:31himself gave in his, uh, his, um, prayer before he went to the cross.
56:37What a wonderful prayer that is, which shows us the desire of God toward his people, what
56:42he wants to do.
56:43Then in the example of Paul, the apostle Paul, um, those prayers are so revealing of God's
56:49kind intentions toward his people, what God has in mind.
56:53And we can ask, we say, the Lord, this is your will.
56:55You want to do this help.
56:57And so none of us has a magic wand that we can wave over the church and make it all happen.
57:02But, but God is pleased when we ask him, when we call upon him.
57:05And I would say to my friends from Glad Tidings, let's, let's be living in the present with
57:10God, what he's doing now.
57:12And, and he is wanting to hear our loving, edifying, biblical, sound prayer.
57:19Well, that's very good advice.
57:21Thank you so much for sharing your story.
57:23Thank you, John.
57:23It's been a pleasure.
57:25Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want to share your story, you can check us out
57:28on the web.
57:28You can find us at william-branham.org.
57:31For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion
57:36from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
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