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00:00Well, uh, analytically speaking, it's Daryl Ryder, Lance Reisland, in for the morning boys,
00:08Ken Carman Show with Anthony Lima, Memorial Day edition.
00:14I'm not gonna lie, I've heard a lot of spin in my nearly three decades of doing this.
00:22You know what, hat tip to Kenny Atkinson this morning.
00:25That was fantastic yesterday. That was beautiful.
00:31After I spent yesterday morning just basically killing the Cavs for being down 0-3 in a series that I
00:37really feel like they should win.
00:39They're not going to now, it's 0-3.
00:42He dropped that jab yesterday at practice.
00:47If there's anyone more qualified to talk about coach speak, spin,
00:54then, it's Coach Riz.
00:57Well, I'll tell you this.
00:58How many games, Coach Riz, analytically speaking, would you have won?
01:06I'm gonna say, you know what, I would have been close to undefeated analytically,
01:10because I would figure out a way to, no, here's the thing.
01:12The thing that bothers you with that is sometimes you get outplayed.
01:16Sometimes you just lose.
01:17And as a coach, and I'm sure most coaches out there, and most people out there,
01:21sometimes it's just easier to take it.
01:23And sometimes it's just easier to say, we've been outplayed, we've been outcoached.
01:26Because then you eliminate everybody else writing their narrative.
01:28That was the only comment that bothered me, because really, the only thing that matters,
01:32it's like when you have big stats in a game or something else happens,
01:35really it comes down to winning and losing.
01:37So analytically, that means nothing to everyone.
01:40You've got to figure out ways to get a win in the scoreboard.
01:42And that was the only issue with that, is I was like, that didn't make a lot of sense to
01:46me.
01:47And for me, I'm an old school guy.
01:49I like when you own it.
01:51The Knicks have outplayed you.
01:52They've outcoached you.
01:53And that's the reality of it.
01:55And when you do that, I think you kind of eliminate,
01:58and you give yourself a chance to have people cheer you on.
02:02Tonight's gonna be tough, because of that, in my opinion.
02:05You've got to just own it and move forward.
02:09I just want to make sure that, like, I'm living in the correct timeline here right now.
02:13Okay?
02:16Kayla, I need to confirm that I heard what I heard.
02:21Analytically, I think we've won the expected.
02:22I said three out of three.
02:23We're two out of three in the expected.
02:25I don't know if you guys follow that.
02:27It's an expected score.
02:29You know, and we've won two out of three.
02:31If you believe in process and all that, like, man, I'm, you know, take that later.
02:38I know I don't throw that on them.
02:40I see it for myself.
02:41I'm, man, we have this feeling.
02:44I have this feeling.
02:45Then I can go to our analytical table and be like, I think last night it was,
02:49the expected score was like one point or two.
02:52Okay.
02:52All right.
02:53I just needed to confirm that that actually was said yesterday.
02:57I'm guessing Kenny is working on his postseason meeting with Kobe Altman
03:02and potentially Dan Gilbert when he's going to have to talk about
03:05what the hell happened against the Knicks.
03:07I mean, I would say this.
03:09If it's that or is he, is that, like, kind of the talk they have
03:13that allows them to not quit tonight?
03:15Because that's the next thing.
03:16It's going to be really tough.
03:17It's never happened before.
03:18Never say never.
03:19You know, you don't have to win four.
03:20You have to win one and all that coach speak that I like.
03:22But, really, it comes down to what, you know,
03:25is this what he tells his players in terms of so they have energy tonight?
03:30You know, when you're talking to your guys, you're down 0-3.
03:33And since the seven minutes ago in that first game,
03:36you've been kind of handled.
03:37You didn't shoot it well in game two.
03:38I thought game three, they just got outplayed.
03:41They got outcoached.
03:43It happens to all of us.
03:44But, really, it comes down to is that the energy?
03:47You know, you go in with your team and you tell them, hey, listen,
03:49and, collectively, we've done some good things.
03:51I don't know what other angle you can have besides maybe, like, hey, listen,
03:55we did what we said we were going to do analytically when you're talking
03:58to your bosses.
03:58There is no other explanation.
04:01Tonight, just after 8 o'clock at Rocket Arena,
04:03Cavaliers looking to avoid the brooms.
04:06That's where we are, looking to avoid the brooms.
04:08And to your point, Coach, they did gather.
04:15And I guess things were said.
04:19It was about belief.
04:20I asked them, why do we believe?
04:23You know, I had, like, eight great answers.
04:27I said, well, that makes me believe more.
04:29Because you guys really, really believe in yourself.
04:31And they listed all different.
04:33Each guy had, like, a different reason or two.
04:36I don't want me to get up there and say, hey, we've got to believe.
04:40Like, it's not that.
04:40It's like, do they believe?
04:42And they do believe.
04:44And they don't, they're probably not steeped in the stats that you guys all know, right,
04:48how hard this is.
04:49I don't think they care about that.
04:51They believe in the group.
04:52They believe in each other.
04:53They believe we've had really good stretches against this team.
04:57Haven't connected at all to get, to get over the hump.
05:00But, you know, there was no one in there that gave, well, this is the reason why we can't do
05:06it.
05:07We can't win the next game.
05:08It was more about the next game.
05:10I didn't go to, hey, we can get these guys in seven.
05:13None of that.
05:14It's like, microtab.
05:16I believe in microtab.
05:17It's like, just get this one and figure it out after that.
05:20So, we're in a new season of Ted Lasso, I believe.
05:24Oh, you're going to believe.
05:26You think they're putting that poster up?
05:27They got the believe.
05:29That's a nice Ted Lasso reference.
05:30I like that.
05:30They got the believe posted on every doorway out in Independence, I'm guessing.
05:37You have to believe.
05:43Look, I understand where he's coming from, right?
05:46You can't just raise the white flag and take the loss before you're handed your fourth loss.
05:55But the reality is, coming back from three games to none deficit is nearly impossible.
06:02Right now, it's about, okay, how much can you make the Knicks work for this thing to get to the
06:09NBA Finals?
06:11Game four is tonight.
06:14If you send it back to New York, well, game five will be Wednesday night.
06:19If it ends up back here in Cleveland for a game six, that will be Friday night.
06:25And if you're able to do the unthinkable and push this thing the distance to a game seven,
06:31then that, of course, will be next Sunday.
06:34But to Atkinson's point, as much as I'm laughing hysterically at, analytically speaking,
06:41the Cavaliers would be leading this series two games to one based on expected score.
06:46Me, I go by the actual score.
06:49Okay?
06:50That's just me.
06:51Actual score.
06:51You blew a 22-point lead in game one with 750 to play.
06:56You lost that one in overtime because you didn't know how to use your timeouts.
07:04Oh, by the way, watched some Spurs and Thunder last night.
07:09Seems different.
07:10Something funny happened in that game in the fourth quarter.
07:14Spurs just absolutely putting the boots to the Thunder.
07:17And Oklahoma City got it down to 18.
07:22And you're not going to believe this, coach.
07:25The Spurs took a timeout.
07:27The Spurs took a timeout.
07:29I was like, why are you taking a timeout?
07:33It's only 18.
07:34Kenny Atkinson would never do that.
07:37Yeah, you can stop it.
07:38You got to stop the run.
07:39Obviously, we all look at that, you know, obviously from the outside looking in,
07:42but it just seemed like the momentum, you have to stop the momentum.
07:45You know, going back to, you know, what Kenny said about energy and belief,
07:50that really, those are words to me.
07:52We'll know that in the first three minutes, the energy they have.
07:55You can say whatever you want.
07:56What energy do you have?
07:58You know, obviously, if you look at it, if you truly, like,
08:00I've always been a big believer in the next game.
08:03When people ask me what the records are going to be, I always say 1-0,
08:05and that's really not coach speak to me because that's all you can control.
08:08So hopefully they're thinking, we got to win tonight.
08:11Don't worry about anything else.
08:12It's going to be tough to New York.
08:13It's hard to win four in a row.
08:14Great.
08:15Can you win tonight on your home floor when you've been fairly successful?
08:18That would be the first thought.
08:19But the energy has to match the words, or it's just nonsense, right?
08:23And that's, you know, it's like setting goals.
08:24You can set all the goals on paper.
08:26Are you putting in the work in the offseason?
08:28Are you doing all the things us coaches are asking you to do as players,
08:32whatever it is?
08:32And so that energy that you want to see early on from the Cavs will tell you if it's, you
08:38know,
08:38just words, a bunch of words that everybody wants to hear.
08:41Or do you believe that you can, you know, it's like a 16-1 in the NCAA tournament.
08:45At some point in time, it'll happen.
08:47Do you believe it can be, you know, I would say this.
08:49I didn't think the Knicks were that much better than the Cavs going into this series.
08:55The thing that bothered me, you know, as you were talking, the thing that bothered me about
08:58the 22-point lead is that Donovan Mitchell and a couple guys mentioned that after the last game.
09:03And that tells you it's still in their brain.
09:05So when they said they wash it and moved on, they really haven't.
09:07And that's a problem because that has lingered with them and their energy and their passion
09:11and their attention and detail has suffered because, for me, they're thinking about that.
09:15And they didn't wash it.
09:16And that's been kind of the – that last seven minutes is ultimately probably what's going to cost them the
09:21series.
09:22Well, after game one, I was doing the fan playoff postgame show with Jake Volnick.
09:29And I said, I don't know how the Cavaliers recover from that.
09:32That's an all-timer.
09:33You're up 22 with, you know, just under eight minutes left on that clock.
09:39I mean, it should be blouses at that point.
09:43And for whatever reason, Kenny Atkinson didn't want to use timeouts.
09:48He didn't want to get James Harden off Jalen Brunson, who was just absolutely taking a blowtorch to him,
09:53hit seven shots on him down the stretch in that game.
09:57And no one had a thought to say, hey, under no circumstances is James Harden to be on Jalen Brunson.
10:05That is not supposed to be a switch-off.
10:07That's not a one-on-one.
10:09James Harden can guard anybody else but Jalen Brunson in that particular situation.
10:14And that never happened.
10:16And the thing that frustrates me with the Cavaliers during these playoffs,
10:21and we're going to talk to Ethan Sands of cleveland.com coming up here at 9 o'clock,
10:26is the lack of urgency.
10:29You've touched on it.
10:30I just don't feel like, considering everything that this group has been through in recent years,
10:40four years ago, the Knicks embarrassed him in the first round.
10:42We get the Jared Allen, hey, the lights are too bright, we're too bright for us comment, right?
10:47And that led to the narrative that the Cavaliers are soft as marshmallows,
10:53and they're Charmin toilet paper and all this kind of stuff, right?
10:59Then, the next year, they get through the first round,
11:03but it's a gentleman's sweep at the hands of the Boston Celtics.
11:08And then, last year, you're gentlemanly swept again, this time by the Indiana Pacers.
11:14And then, right after that series wraps up,
11:17Max Truce and others had talked about, during locker cleanout,
11:20how, boy, they really weren't expecting, I should say,
11:24to get punched in the mouth the way they were by the Pacers.
11:26They weren't ready for the level of intensity and things like that, right?
11:30But we're going to learn from this.
11:31And that was the message after each one of those disappointing ends in the postseason
11:36was, we're going to learn from this, this is going to drive us and motivate us,
11:41and all those things, right?
11:43And I don't feel like that the Cavaliers this postseason, recognizing that, yes,
11:51they won two playoff series, they won two game sevens,
11:56because I just don't feel like that sense of urgency, that sense of desperation,
12:02that passion, that pride, that residue from all of those negative playoff experiences, right?
12:12They don't look like a team that's consumed by that, that is fueled by that right now.
12:18And I don't know why that is, because the only thing that's really materially different
12:24about this team is no Darius Garland, and quite frankly, during a lot of those playoff runs,
12:31there wasn't a lot of Darius Garland because he was hurt.
12:34And James Harden is in his place.
12:38And I know you had Dennis Schroeder and Keon Ellis sprinkled in here and that.
12:41But materially, Lance, this is the same group that has those wounds,
12:50and they just have not struck me as a team.
12:53And maybe I've misread the situation, and if I have, I'll own it.
12:56I have no problem admitting when I get something wrong.
13:01But the way I have perceived this, they just do not look like they are consumed
13:07with that passion from the disappointment of those previous three playoff runs
13:12the way they said they would be.
13:15Well, you think he would come back in Game 2 after that seven minutes.
13:18And that was, for me, that was the, should have been the, I don't want to say panic,
13:21that should have been the desperation time.
13:23That should have been the time they came out and got Game 2.
13:26They should have came out with relentless passion and energy.
13:30When they did it, it tells you two things.
13:32First of all, after hearing a couple guys speak after the last game, they didn't wash it.
13:36So it was still in their mind going into Game 2.
13:38And secondly, they didn't play as if a team that had blown that huge lead.
13:42And that was the only thing, for me, that bothered me.
13:44They didn't look irritated.
13:46They didn't look, there was no sense of urgency.
13:48There was no, like, panic.
13:49And, you know, like at the end of the game, kind of, when you're down four,
13:53you're trying to get a steal before you get a foul.
13:56And that sense of urgency, and everybody's flying around.
13:59That's how they should have came out in that Game 2 after blowing that first,
14:02you know, that huge lead with just seven minutes to go.
14:04So that's what was disappointing to me.
14:07And now they haven't.
14:08So they, when you talk about toughness and all those things,
14:11that didn't really come to fruition when it came to when they needed it.
14:15So you got embarrassed by the Pacers.
14:17You got embarrassed by the Knicks.
14:18And then you come into this year,
14:20all that should have kind of hardened you when you lost that lead in seven minutes.
14:24You should have said, all right, we've been in this before.
14:27That Game 2 was the one, not win or lose, the energy.
14:31Sometimes in basketball, shots don't go down.
14:33I get that.
14:34But the passion and the energy wasn't there in Game 2 where it needed to be,
14:37in my opinion.
14:38Yeah.
14:38Well, Game 2, to me, was a playoff schedule loss.
14:41And there is something to be said for the fact that the Cavaliers have been playing
14:46every other day since the end of April.
14:48And I'm not making excuses for them because, hey, that's your job.
14:52Like, it's tough.
14:53Yeah.
14:54I'm old enough to remember where, even in the conference finals, we got extra time.
14:59But, hey, had the Cavaliers handled their business in the Toronto series,
15:04in the Detroit series, a little faster,
15:07they would have gotten a little extra time off in the subsequent series,
15:11and they would not have to be doing what they're doing now.
15:14They are basically paying the price right now from a fatigue standpoint, if you will,
15:20not handling their business.
15:21Well, they've not handled their business.
15:23They're down 0-3.
15:24Can they get back in this?
15:25Ken Carver Show with Anthony Lima.
15:27It's Daryl Ryder.
15:27Lance Reisland filling in for the boys.
15:30We'll be back tomorrow, Memorial Day.
15:32Take a moment, whether you're out with family and friends today, picnics,
15:38get-togethers, whatever, just take a moment to realize
15:42and remember why we have this holiday
15:46and the sacrifices that men and women have made over the decades
15:54and the last 250 years to allow us to sit here and make fun of Kenny Atkinson.
16:00Absolutely.
16:00Talk sports.
16:01Shoot the breeze.
16:02Yeah, shoot the breeze.
16:03I mean, it's so thankful and appreciate all those people.
16:07Their service is amazing, and thank you so much.
16:11Kenny Atkinson was on one yesterday, a little bit of a heater out there.
16:15He really was.
16:15He really was.
16:17And look, you know what?
16:18I make fun of it because I just can't help myself,
16:20but also at the same time, to be fair to Kenny,
16:23like what's he supposed to say at this point, right?
16:25I mean, they've blown it in a lot of respects.
16:30They have found themselves in what I believe to be an untenable situation.
16:38I don't think they're coming back to win the series.
16:41And you know what?
16:41I hope that they take that little two-second clip,
16:45and they do what the Browns did years and years ago
16:47when I went on our sister station and said there was no way
16:50they were beating the Pittsburgh Steelers in the playoffs
16:52because, well, they hadn't won a game at Pittsburgh
16:54since, I think, the Bush administration.
16:59And the Browns went and put the boots to the Steelers.
17:02And I got a few I-told-you-so texts from some folks.
17:06And so look, if the Cavaliers need to take a three-second clip of me saying
17:11they have no chance to win this series,
17:12and they need to play that in their team meeting this morning or this evening,
17:16and if I can help motivate them in any way to turn this into something
17:23that resembles a competitive series and maybe come back
17:26and do what just doesn't happen, and that's come back from 0-3,
17:30win the next four games, then you know what?
17:32You're welcome, Cleveland.
17:33I am here for you, Cavs fan.
17:36I'm willing to take that hit for you, Cavs fan.
17:38Let me ask you a question.
17:40If, say, they go out there and Kenny says those things,
17:43does that make it easier on him if he says,
17:45listen, I've messed up, we haven't played well,
17:47I should have called a timeout, or whatever it is,
17:50do you think it's easier for him or is it better to take this route?
17:52Like, what would make us as, like, people who analyze that stuff
17:57and the fans, what would have made, like, what could he have said to make this?
18:01Because I thought, yesterday was the first kind of day I was like,
18:04eh, I didn't really.
18:05He turned me off yesterday a little bit, not owning it.
18:08Owning it helped him?
18:09Would that have helped?
18:11Yes.
18:11Okay.
18:11Because you diffuse it all.
18:13Yeah, right?
18:14That's how I've always looked at it.
18:15They were better.
18:15I was like, they were better.
18:17They outplayed us.
18:17They outcoached us.
18:18Then you're done.
18:19Well, Donovan Mitchell, after Saturday night's game,
18:23acknowledged that they blew it in game one,
18:27while also simultaneously saying nothing we can do about it.
18:33So, yeah, if you own it.
18:36Just easier.
18:36It is easier because that's how you diffuse the criticism.
18:40And that's something that I do just in my own life.
18:43If I make a mistake and, you know, I'm in a fight with someone or a disagreement with someone, right?
18:50And if I've made the mistake, I own it.
18:53And I have found in my life, instead of trying to avoid it, because in a lot of respects, I
18:58know there's a shock people,
18:59but, like, in a lot of respects in my life, I can be very passive aggressive.
19:02I don't like fighting with people.
19:04I don't like argument.
19:05I don't like animosity and yelling and screaming.
19:10I know, shocking.
19:11I don't like yelling and screaming while I yell and scream.
19:14But, yeah, it just, it never makes me feel good to be in those situations.
19:21And I have just learned over the course of my life as a man to hold myself accountable.
19:28Because how can I hold other people accountable in my life if I'm not willing to do the same for
19:34myself?
19:34Now, I'm sure behind the scenes, what Kenny Atkinson's telling his basketball team is significantly different
19:42than the message he is projecting in front of reporters, okay?
19:49We talked about this yesterday.
19:52There's some online criticism with Kenny.
19:55I haven't seen it.
19:57It was brought to my attention.
19:59I guess folks are, when Kenny walks into the room, they're, you know, the cameras are live or whatever.
20:07And there are some Cavalier fans that don't like the way Kenny walks into the post-game press conference room
20:12after a loss.
20:15Apparently, they feel he's just too happy, which I, as someone who's often in that room, I'm going to disagree
20:24with that.
20:26And just basically, Kenny's a good guy, okay?
20:29He's very cordial with the folks that cover the team on a daily basis.
20:33He's very respectful to them.
20:35He recognizes the folks that travel with them on a game-by-game basis on the road, which is obviously
20:41not easy to do, covering an NBA game.
20:43He has a very good rapport with those that cover the team.
20:47And I think that that is reflected in not only his post-game press conferences, but other media availabilities.
20:54And for the most part, Kenny's pretty candid about things outside of competitive advantage type of questions like starting lineups
21:07and how long is a guy going to be out or, you know, whatever, right?
21:12He, in some respects, reminds me a little bit of Todd Munkin with his candor.
21:19I mean, Todd Munkin is a breath of fresh air right now.
21:21I mean, it's funny when we were out there on Wednesday and we're asking him questions.
21:28And he's, you can't get the question out of your mouth and he's jumping in with a response right away.
21:37And his answers are thoughtful.
21:39He tells you what's on his mind, whether you like it, don't like it, agree with it, disagree with it.
21:46Kenny Atkinson is like that in many respects.
21:50So, I don't know how you can soften the reality that the Cavaliers find themselves in tonight, being down 0
22:02-3, in a series in which they, for the first three quarters of the series, were just absolutely taking a
22:11hammer to the Knicks.
22:13And I never, like, I picked the Cavs to win the series in six.
22:17Obviously, that's not happening now.
22:20But I felt this was a very winnable series for them.
22:24I respect the Knicks.
22:26I respect this heater that they're on.
22:28Now they've won 10 straight postseason games.
22:31They're doing what LeBron James used to do with the Cavaliers, okay, as far as rolling off postseason wins.
22:37You know, Carl Anthony Towns, Bridges, Josh Hart, obviously Jalen Brunson.
22:46Like, it's a good basketball team.
22:47Not taking anything away from them.
22:50But I just, going into tonight's game, I just don't have this feeling where, like, the Knicks have just absolutely
22:59clobbered the Cavs.
23:01I don't have that feeling.
23:02And I think that's what frustrates me.
23:04I feel like the Cavs have done more to beat themselves than the Knicks have to beat them.
23:12Well, I thought in game three, I thought the Knicks outplayed the Cavs.
23:15I thought game two, they didn't make shots.
23:17But I thought part of that was what the Knicks did.
23:20I thought that, you know, going from that seven-minute mark, I just felt like there was a little bit
23:25of a hangover that has kind of hung with them.
23:28Now, going back to how Kenny is in press conferences, I've heard those things as well.
23:32And I've had friends reach out and say, that's not how you should act when you're, you know, and everybody
23:36handles that differently.
23:37And I will say this, the idea of they can't win in seven, most likely, all those things are real.
23:44The numbers aren't real.
23:45Last hundred, you know, zero in 163 is a real number.
23:49However, as a coach, you can't go in like that.
23:51So the idea of him coming in, and I think what people want is that, you know, and you get
23:55it with Munkin, is, you know, kind of wearing it on your sleeve a little bit.
23:58Kenny's not really that guy.
23:59He kind of stays upbeat, and I think as a head coach, you have to do that.
24:03Now, especially to the media.
24:05Now, behind closed doors, you would hope there's a little bit more panic and a little bit more sense of
24:10urgency in what they're doing.
24:11But how he handles it, you have to go in with the idea that we have to win tonight.
24:16You can't say, it's impossible to win four in a row.
24:19No one has ever come back from this.
24:20But it's not impossible to win one game.
24:22And if you kind of go with that approach, maybe you have a little bit better shot.
24:26Now, once again, numbers don't lie.
24:28But, again, no 16 ever beat a one, and that happens.
24:31So you can't say it's impossible.
24:33It's going to be really hard.
24:34What's not impossible is winning one game, which I hope is where kind of their mindset is.
24:40Now, he comes in happy.
24:41You know, he comes in smiling.
24:43I think that's just kind of his personality.
24:45And I've always said this going back to, like, Kevin Stefanski.
24:48Whether you like it or not, you don't want coaches to be outside their personality because then it's phony.
24:52That's why I think we love Todd Munkin, right?
24:54Because he's, you get what you get with Todd Munkin.
24:57And that's the reality of it.
24:58So, now, there's going to come a point where people are not going to like that with Todd Munkin.
25:02If he doesn't win, they will not like that honesty.
25:04They will, you know, you go back to Kevin's answers after a game.
25:07We've got to do better.
25:08I've got to coach better.
25:09Well, you're not going to get that from Todd Munkin.
25:11He's going to tell you who's playing bad.
25:12And then if you're a fan of that player, you're going to say it's not all his fault.
25:15And there's some other things that come with that dynamic as well.
25:18So, they've got to think about hopefully tonight they're thinking we can win tonight and then we'll move on from
25:23there.
25:24We'll see what happens.
25:25Like you said, we'll know in the first minute and a half what is their energy and what is their,
25:31are they saying they want to win or are they playing that?
25:33We'll see what happens.
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