00:00How the hell do we make this thing better or are we stuck?
00:03Well, let's get those answers from Joe Vardin, senior writer, senior NBA writer for The Athletic.
00:08He appears on the Wise Heart Right.
00:09We make it right called Kyle Right Hotline.
00:11Joe, good morning to you.
00:13Were you surprised that they kept Kenny Atkinson?
00:18Yeah, a little.
00:21It's just, you know, you start with Dan's tweet, which was a surprise to me.
00:27I certainly took it one way, as I think most people did.
00:31And then there was just chatter throughout the league that if it was one of two things,
00:37it was either if there's a fall guy, it's going to be Kenny.
00:41And then sort of outside, a little bit further outside, the talk was it's going to be Kenny.
00:49So, you know, but obviously that's not what Dan meant.
00:52And I go back to now, you know, once I was told the news and was able to break that
00:57story,
00:59I immediately went back to like where Dan was in the Detroit series.
01:03Like he was so supportive of his franchise and, you know, going to dinner with Kenny and Kobe
01:11the night before game seven and busing all those people up to Detroit and just all these things.
01:17So Dan's tweet turned out to just be a company edict that everybody who's there is going to do better.
01:25Well, did you think it was a mistake to hold on to Kenny Atkinson or what do you think?
01:32You know, no, I don't think so.
01:38I don't.
01:39I am certainly of the mind, the NFL model, like the, you look at the successful franchises,
01:45they keep their coaches for a while.
01:47And I think you can make the same argument with Golden State and Miami.
01:52And then, you know, I know it's a different guy in San Antonio now, but Pop's still around.
01:58And, and, and I think that, you know, Kenny did a great job last year.
02:06And then I do think that organizationally, they had reached a point in the middle of this season
02:13where they decided that what they had previously was not good enough.
02:18So overall, I am okay with this.
02:21And I do think Kenny is a good communicator with his men.
02:25I think they respect him and I think they want to play for him.
02:29Um, I, I think there were some really questionable things that happened in these playoffs.
02:36And I also think at the time that they happened, the front office wasn't like overly joyed by it.
02:43You know, there, so there were some real mistakes.
02:45And so you can kind of cut this both ways.
02:49Like it does make sense to bring him back.
02:51And also, you know, when you're a coach in a higher profile situation like that, and you, you or your
02:59staff or your team are making errors that aren't obvious, like, well, they just keep turning the ball over.
03:05Like there's other mistakes beyond that.
03:07You can point to the coach and ask questions.
03:11So, you know, I think this is part of a, um, you know, this is part of a bigger picture
03:17look of, of being overall pleased with the progress and then just declaring that there's more to be done with
03:24this group.
03:25Joe Varden with us on the hotline.
03:27So Dan Gilbert's 64 and, uh, the reason I assumed that Kenny would be gone yesterday is there's just the
03:34track record of Dan spending his way out of any problematic situations, uh, sometimes over emotional and also understanding that
03:45in the NBA, like coaching, we don't think of it the same way as we do in the NFL.
03:51Like coach might be good one year.
03:53All right.
03:53Next year, he struggles.
03:54Let's get him out.
03:55Like that typically is the way that league works for a lot of teams.
03:58The fact that he didn't do any of that, is it because he's wiser, more mature, less emotional as we
04:06get later in life?
04:06Or does this just mean there could be some massive deals behind the scenes that could be next roster wise?
04:14I think it could be both Anthony.
04:17Uh, I mean, I think, you know, I, I, and I know we'll get into this in a minute.
04:21Like, like, like I am taking the much more cautious tone or approach to what they will do this off
04:27season.
04:28Um, and it's a little bit of an educated guess.
04:31I would say it's, it's not just my opinion.
04:34Um, but Dan, you know, I think, I think just the way you frame this up until the conference finals
04:43that went so badly, there was no indication from Dan that he wanted to make a change with the coach.
04:50And I think like, you know, the front office and I can argue over the semantics here, but what we
04:58all agree, what we would have to agree on is that Dan was an active supporter of Kenny from the
05:06start.
05:06Like this was, this was not a case where the front office had to like convince Dan to make this
05:13hire.
05:13Like this is something Dan was actively supportive of.
05:17And I don't think that he believes, uh, or wants to, or whatever that, that, that hiring Kenny was a
05:26mistake.
05:26So that's it, you know, uh, that's where they are.
05:30Um, I think the second thing to that, before we move on to the players is there's a very real
05:36chance that all the things that have been said over the last few days that have had so many of
05:42us rolling our eyes about analytics, this and open shots, that and expected it, whatever.
05:48Okay.
05:49There's a very real chance that they're all buying that and that they are, they have taken a step back
05:54and they're saying, you know what?
05:56Our guys were in the right positions to win these games.
05:59And we were just gassed.
06:00We were too tired.
06:02We were too tired to make these shots.
06:04And then, you know, gagging away game.
06:06Joe fans are not going to want to hear that.
06:08I'm already seeing Ken's body language.
06:09Because it's, because it's, I, I, I'm not yelling at you, Joe.
06:12So what you agree with them, you agree with them or you agree with the Cavs or not my job
06:19to agree with them or disagree with them.
06:20I'm here to tell you, I am here to tell you why this is happening.
06:24I'm not mad at you, Joe.
06:25That is the truth.
06:26Yeah.
06:26I'm not mad at you.
06:27And I know you don't care.
06:28Draw me into this.
06:30You're not drawing me into taking the side here.
06:32I'm here to tell you what is happening.
06:35And it's a, it's a legitimate explanation.
06:37Like, you know, I mean, I even said it after they fell down three Oh, like, Hey,
06:41I know we're all about to wring our hands with this team and lack of toughness, this and quit that
06:48and Kenny, this and whatever.
06:50Last year, the Knicks were in the conference finals and yes, they went six games.
06:54I understand that.
06:55But they also gagged away a lead in game one horribly, horrible fashion.
07:01And they fired the coach, but kept the players.
07:04But the fact is like, you can get there for the first time and learn from it.
07:08And this is Donovan's first time.
07:10And it is Evans' first time.
07:12And it is Jarrett's first time.
07:14And they learned lessons that they didn't know before.
07:17And couple that with what it costs, A, to pay this team, and then B, what it will cost to
07:24dismantle this team.
07:26You know, those things point to at least some semblance of giving this roster a chance to learn from its
07:35mistake.
07:37That, to me, would be the most disastrous of all the scenarios that you've painted, that they believe that they
07:43were tired and unlucky.
07:45Because I'm like, were the Knicks just in the Eastern Conference Finals because of luck, just because of dumb luck
07:48that they beat, who they beat?
07:51Like, with Toronto had ran.
07:52And is Toronto and Detroit secretly two of the best teams in the NBA, and we just had to beat
07:57them in seven-game series, and we were just too tired to beat the Knicks?
08:01Detroit, on paper, of course, was the second-best team in the NBA.
08:06But Toronto, that's, Ken, that's where you got it.
08:10That one was unacceptable.
08:13That was unacceptable, and that's where their sins were.
08:17There is no way that series goes to seven games.
08:20And I was actually, I was taken back by the nonchalance from James and Donovan in that series.
08:29You know, they needed to grab that series by the horns and get it done much earlier than they did,
08:36and that didn't happen.
08:39You know, going down 2-0 in Detroit, that one, that wasn't as concerning to me.
08:46But you had set yourself up for a harder pass by allowing the Raptors, who were out two starters, to
08:54do what they did.
08:57How tethered are the Cavs to any particular members of this core right now?
09:05Yeah, Anthony, I mean, I think, obviously, that's the next question, right?
09:09I thought, and I'll just, I'll preface this.
09:12When Dan sent out that tweet, leading up to it, I was comfortable, obviously enough to report it,
09:20that the Cavs had shown no interest in this Evan for Giannis thing.
09:26And then Dan comes out and says, we are nowhere near where we need to be.
09:31And now I'm thinking, oh, well, does that mean that we have a new front office coming that might not
09:37be wed to Evan?
09:39Has Dan changed his mind on the players he's drafted?
09:42So now that we see that maybe at least, well, we know that half the answer is no, that Dan's
09:48still good with what he has.
09:50So now you turn the page and you look at this team.
09:55Before we talk about moves they can make, like, we all have to understand that their roster, as projected, is
10:02soaring past the second apron.
10:04OK, to make any of these moves, which includes trading Evan for Giannis, OK, they have to not only get
10:13under the second apron, they have to get under the first apron.
10:17And the reason why is Giannis makes $8 million more than Evan does.
10:22That is outside the realm where you can just throw cash or, like, to make up the difference.
10:29And if you are over the first apron, salary-wise, you may not trade two players for one.
10:37You can't do it.
10:38So just to pull this, like, they're going to have to do things like renounce Dean and Keon and maybe
10:46trade the first-round pick, maybe wave and stretch Schroeder.
10:49Like, I'm not saying they're doing any of those things, but those things all have to happen just so they
10:55can start making these bigger swings.
10:57And then if you take that bigger swing on Giannis, then that severely limits what you can offer LeBron.
11:04And if you want to offer LeBron more than the minimum or than $6 million, which I wrote yesterday is
11:10an 88% pay cut over what he makes now,
11:14if you want to do that, if you want to offer him more than the bare minimum, then you need
11:19to stay out of the – you need to get under the first apron.
11:22So, you know, there's just a lot of – there's a lot of, you know, tough decisions that have to
11:30be made here.
11:31And, like, they can do these things that we're all going to talk about, but it's way harder than just
11:37saying, yeah, okay, we're ready to trade Evan.
11:40Like, no, like, you have to do a bunch of stuff before you can even pull that move.
11:46All right, well, so give me a percent chance Giannis plays for the Cavs next year.
11:52Well, Ken, I can't – I would have told you it was about zero, but now I can't say that
11:59because I have to be open –
12:02I have to be open to the big possibilities, you know.
12:06An edict is still an edict, and, you know, we're nowhere near, you know, to just all-out effort, and
12:14that could mean changes.
12:16So I can't – I can't no longer – I can no longer rule this out.
12:20But what I do know is the Cavs still believe in Evan Mobley, and if we're being honest with ourselves,
12:29Evan was the most consistent player for the Cavs in the 26th playoffs.
12:33He was. Sorry.
12:34Man, what does that tell you, though?
12:35I mean, you can argue he got outplayed by Josh Hart in that series.
12:39Fine. Fine. He's 25, and he's still learning some of this stuff.
12:46And, you know, they – you know, they know – everybody in the league knows what Giannis is capable of,
12:53but he's been hurt for two years.
12:55He's on the wrong side of 30, and does he have any interest whatsoever in coming to Cleveland?
13:01Now, you might say, well, he doesn't have a no-trade clause.
13:04It's not up to him. It's up to Milwaukee.
13:06And Evan Mobley would clearly be the best return they could get for him.
13:10I don't think it's close, honestly.
13:12But would the Cavs make that move, understanding that Giannis would not be interested in an extension here?
13:19Would you really – would you – is Evan Mobley worth trading for literally a one-year run?
13:25Is that worth it? I'm not sure that it is.
13:30So, you know, like, I'm still on that side between Giannis' interest in Cleveland
13:35and the Cavs' concerns with his injuries, coupled with how they still feel about Evan,
13:44at least at the front office level, that I am on the side that this won't happen.
13:49But I'm – you know, you're not going to catch me ruling it out.
13:53All right, we're going to catch you doing something here.
13:56Joe Varden with us.
13:57One word prompt, and then you can run with it.
14:00Just say it.
14:02LeBron.
14:03LeBron.
14:05LeBron.
14:06I am still – I am also of the mind just – look, I was around him a lot in
14:1224, right,
14:14with the Olympics, and then haven't seen him much the last two years, only occasionally.
14:17But the guy that I've known for 12 years now, money to him matters because of where he came from.
14:28Game balls matter, too.
14:29Can't seem to get one of those from his head coach.
14:31Yes, but it matters.
14:32We gave one to Deshaun Watson once with the Browns.
14:34We just give away here.
14:37So, like, does he want to play with Donovan, James, you know, Giannis or Evan, whoever,
14:49and end it all here in Cleveland?
14:51I mean, maybe.
14:53I have not gotten that indication.
14:56Maybe he does.
14:57But, like, is he okay with walking into the locker room and knowing that Sam Merrill makes more money than
15:04him?
15:04The LeBron James I know is not okay with that, and it's because of what he feels he has done
15:12for the league at large,
15:13which is true, by the way.
15:16Like, he's going to – he knows there's a $77 billion media deal that the NBA is going to reap
15:21for the next 11 years,
15:23and he knows that that was built largely on the play that he had put out on the court for
15:27all those years.
15:28So this is tough, and I just – for me, I don't see it.
15:33But I think he wants to be a Laker if he continues to play at all.
15:37And I can go through the reasons, or we can just leave it at that.
15:40But that's what I think he wants to do.
15:42I know he can make way more money there, which, you know, he's still not going to make as much
15:47as Luka anymore,
15:48as much as Reeves anymore.
15:49And maybe even if the Lakers go get a third guy, like LeBron would make less than them,
15:55but he would still be in the double-digit millions, which for a 40 – you know, going on 42
16:01years old,
16:03I think he'd be okay with that.
16:05So, you know, I mean, we'll see what kind of pitch the Cavs put together,
16:09or even if they decide to do that, you know, do they think that LeBron would be an upgrade
16:15over, you know, what they have at the wing position now at that age?
16:22I also think, you know, it's interesting.
16:24You know, we're talking about this scenario, which is, like, somewhat –
16:28I mean, if LeBron's willing to take such a pay cut, you know,
16:32there is, like, this puncher's chance scenario where you have a team of Donovan, James, Giannis, and LeBron.
16:39Okay.
16:40LeBron's 41 right now.
16:43James will be 37 in August, and Giannis is 31 now, I think.
16:48Giannis has been hurt for two years.
16:51LeBron misses a ton – he missed so many games this year that he couldn't be eligible for awards.
16:56James is really durable, but he doesn't move very much during the regular season.
17:01If Giannis gets hurt again, what's that team like?
17:05Especially when you had to get rid of all the capable backups that you've accumulated
17:10because you had to find a way to pay for all this.
17:12What's that team like?
17:14How much pressure is on Donovan now if he's really – if he's carrying a roster with, you know,
17:20two players who are old and or hurt and can't play 82 games or even 70 games,
17:27and then you – you know, James is what he is during the regular season.
17:32So I'm not sure that's the pressure they want either, you know,
17:35and I just don't – I don't know if that is better than a healthy and motivated Mobley
17:42who's turned 26 and has another year of experience under his belt.
17:46I'm just – you know, I get it.
17:48I get it.
17:49Giannis is amazing.
17:50LeBron is arguably the greatest player of all time,
17:53but we have to consider where these people actually are in their lives
17:56and in their careers and just apply it to where the Cavs are now.
18:00And I think these are harder questions to answer than, you know, the three-second,
18:05you know, Giannis, LeBron, oh boy, here we go.
18:08I just think it's more complicated than that.
18:10Joseph, that was excellent.
18:11Thank you so much for the time.
18:12All the best.
18:14Okay, guys.
18:14Great to talk to you.
18:15Joe Varden, senior NBA writer for the Athletic.
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