It was a part of a 12-month lecture series on Indian psychoanalysis (2012 -2013) . The speaker was Pulkit Sharma, a well-known clinical psychologist, psychoanalytic therapist, spiritual counselor and author now based in Pondicherry, India.
In this talk, Pulkit Sharma draws upon different psychoanalytic approaches and his vast psychotherapy experience to explain how we can interpret a patient's dreams and nightmares. He cautions that dream interpretation is not ‘instant noodles’ - one needs to have a good deal of understanding about personality and unconscious of the dreamer to understand their dreams. The highlight of the talk is the different types of dreams and three methods of dream interpretation.
#dreaminterpretation #psychologytalks #psychoanalysis #pulkitsharmaclinicalpsychologist #authorpulkit
In this talk, Pulkit Sharma draws upon different psychoanalytic approaches and his vast psychotherapy experience to explain how we can interpret a patient's dreams and nightmares. He cautions that dream interpretation is not ‘instant noodles’ - one needs to have a good deal of understanding about personality and unconscious of the dreamer to understand their dreams. The highlight of the talk is the different types of dreams and three methods of dream interpretation.
#dreaminterpretation #psychologytalks #psychoanalysis #pulkitsharmaclinicalpsychologist #authorpulkit
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LearningTranscript
00:02Dream and dreaming, they have really kind of caught the attention of people since time in Memoria.
00:09There have been multiple perspectives, multiple theories, some very good ones also,
00:14that reflect on dreaming and how to make sense of dreams, right?
00:19But in today's talk, since I am trained in psychoanalysis and apart from psychoanalysis,
00:25I really don't know much in life, so I am going to restrict to this perspective.
00:29So please bear with me and if you have alternate perspectives,
00:32you are most welcome to share them kind of thing,
00:35but I am largely going to restrict myself to this perspective.
00:38This is not to say that I don't feel that other perspectives can have a lot of value,
00:43but it's a matter of one's experience, training, exposure, what one is kind of thing.
00:47So on that note, I would start this talk.
00:53Yeah, so first of all, let's go to this like, you know, the word of caution, right?
01:00When we are interpreting the dream from a psychoanalytical perspective.
01:04So what is the caution?
01:06The caution is, as I said, that it requires an extensive training and experience.
01:12This is not to say that people cannot interpret dreams intuitively.
01:17Some people have a very good sense of other people's dreams.
01:20Some people can look at their own dreams and come up with very spontaneous intuitive interpretations.
01:26But when we are talking about looking at dreams from a psychoanalytical perspective,
01:30it requires actually this interesting thing that you have to go into the world of dreamer
01:36and look at the dream from their world.
01:40At the same time, you should have a lot of knowledge of what your inner world,
01:44what your inner mind is.
01:45Otherwise, it's like very, very highly possible that one ends up interpreting one's own world to the other person.
01:54Which may be useful in some ways, but it may not be really true.
01:58So that's why we are saying, you know, that it requires extensive training and experience.
02:03As I said, it is very important to understand one's own unconscious as deeply as possible.
02:10We all have a part of mind that is unconscious.
02:14By that I mean that we do many things, we have many thoughts, we have many emotions about which we
02:22know,
02:22we have some inkling that these are there, about which we also largely don't know.
02:27So it's like this, and it's often this kind of experience that when we are living our life,
02:32we will be like wondering, oh I did this, but I really quite don't know why I did this.
02:38I have made up my mind so many times that I am not going to go back to this person.
02:42I feel really hurt, but I still end up going back to that person.
02:45That's what unconsciousness is.
02:48That there are parts of you, feelings inside you, needs inside you, which you have some connection to,
02:55but not a full connection to.
02:56And so very large chunks of life are lived in this unthought, unknown zone.
03:05And that's where we say that it's important to understand this unthought, unknown zone.
03:13Dream interpretation, as I would highly also say, as a word of caution, is not magic.
03:19We all, in fact, when I also came to psychology and when I started my training in psychoanalysis,
03:25the whole thought, you know, that you could integrate dreams, it was making me feel so powerful,
03:31you know, like for the very first time when I was about to read this thing or both these things,
03:35I was like, oh, you know, maybe when I learn this thing, anyone can shoot a dream at me
03:39and I can shoot back a wonderful interpretation, you know, that would hit, bang, you know,
03:49it's like a labor of luck, you have to stay with the dream and the dreamer for like quite some
03:58time,
03:58you need to know a lot about their own self to be able to do this.
04:03It requires a very good deal of understanding about the personality and the unconscious mind
04:08of the dreamer and any of their dreams.
04:11Once again, it is very lucrative to say that you could get an understanding about someone very quickly.
04:19In part, when we talk to any person at length for say 45 minutes or one hour
04:24and the person is speaking out their heart to us, we do feel,
04:28and the person also feels that we know, we are getting to know a lot about them, sorry.
04:33But, it's my experience of listening to the same person for hours and hours and months and months,
04:38there is so much to self, there is so much to personality, there are so many interesting sides,
04:43there are so many unknown sides, there are so many dirty dark sides kind of thing,
04:46that they take time to come, kind of thing.
04:49So, all of this thing also influences our dream interpretation,
04:53that the more we know this person's mind, the better we would be at the dream interpretation.
05:03It's also interesting that one way of looking at the dream is that we just look at the content of
05:09the dream,
05:10and another thing is that we look at its total context, which means that what dream does the person remember?
05:18How much does he or she remember? What does he or she forget from the dream?
05:24At which point the person is telling the dream? That's also very important.
05:28That someone comes in and someone is very anxious and tells you that,
05:32oh god, you know, I just dreamed of this thing.
05:34All right, when you are in a very comfortable space with that person, then the person tells you that.
05:39That is also very important.
05:41Many times I had very interesting people who would, we are just ending a session and they would say,
05:47oh, you know, last night I had this dream where I thought of suicide, you know,
05:51and I guilt myself to the dream.
05:53And you feel, oh, this session has ended, you know, and this is a very,
05:58you know, now what to do kind of thing about this dream, you know, should you go exploring.
06:02So, the time is also very important, and that's the way,
06:06because when someone is narrating you their dream,
06:09they are just not narrating to the dream.
06:11They are also inviting you to get involved in their dream.
06:16They are relating to you via that dream.
06:18When we tell someone something, it's not just that I am, you know,
06:22simply pouring my heart or my mind down there.
06:25I am also inviting tactics,
06:27because we don't go about telling her dreams to just everyone, you know,
06:32it's like someone special whom we tell her dreams to.
06:35So, that's what's important, that whom are the dreams told to and in what manner?
06:42All these questions are, like, very interesting.
06:49Right.
06:49So, here I would just like to pause and I would like to know, you know,
06:53quickly from you all, kind of thing.
06:55And that, you know, what has been your experience?
07:02Have you had dreams?
07:03Have you tried to make sense of those dreams by yourself?
07:06And, I mean, what are the ways that you use and how have you been at them?
07:12I know it's a lot to kind of, you know, ask and what's going to talk about.
07:15But, at least one or two people who just took a reflection on this, that would really be great.
07:21That's someone who dreams and someone who thinks about their dreams
07:25and someone who tries to make some sense of their dreams, kind of thing.
07:29No, this person is nodding such a big head and I'm like, you know,
07:33then can I just jump to my slide and back?
07:36Yeah, good.
07:38Matthew, yeah.
07:40Well, for the longest time I've kept a dream journal.
07:43Great.
07:44It's very interesting.
07:45So, maybe we should invite you for here then.
07:47And maybe here then.
07:49No, I'll wait for the borderline.
07:51Oh, okay.
07:52Yeah.
07:56There were times that I remember my dreams in details.
08:01Okay.
08:01And there are times when I remember them very sporadically and just flashes.
08:07But the interesting thing is that I remember colors in my dreams.
08:11Oh, okay.
08:12Wait, I think I remember colors, if you can.
08:15Okay.
08:16I'm sure.
08:20And it's just, I just thought that it would open up a whole other side to, you know,
08:29knowing the self and then handling my own issues before they could come up here.
08:33You know, my issues come out of the therapy room and I'm sitting, you know,
08:36with my clients and patients and going,
08:38Mother, what are you doing here?
08:40So, I didn't want that for that.
08:42It's just, it's very fascinating.
08:45It's very confusing.
08:46It is very fascinating.
08:47And that's one reason, you know,
08:49that I also became very interested in this topic because,
08:53to tell you something about myself,
08:55I generally have dreams.
08:57I generally used to have dreams.
08:58Thankfully, I don't have such dreams now.
09:00Which were like a whole Bollywood movie.
09:02Like, you know, big scene after scene, colors, you know,
09:05and songs and hundreds of people in the dream.
09:08And when I started my training, I used to write down my dream
09:11and at times it used to just run into three and a half pages one dream.
09:13And it used to be like such a, I used to even really get, I mean,
09:18the thought of, you know, that you would take it for some interpretation
09:21was like just too much to me kind of thing, you know.
09:23Then I finally discovered the reasons behind them.
09:26Thankfully, I don't have such big dreams now.
09:28I have like, very decent small view
09:30and we took into four, five nights.
09:32That's great for me now.
09:35Yeah, anyone else who would like to share?
09:37Yeah.
09:37I've heard, I see that I have heard people later.
09:41We can also do one thing maybe.
09:42Sorry to interrupt you.
09:43You could just tell your name and just in one language what we would do,
09:47you know, because that will help us in getting some context.
09:50And also for all of us to know each other.
09:52Yeah.
09:52I'm Nadine.
09:53Okay.
09:54And I'm a child psychologist in freelance.
09:57I've been working with a lot of education.
09:58Great.
09:59Yeah.
09:59With special kids and otherwise.
10:01Yeah.
10:02And this is a topic that's been interesting to me
10:05because I've been getting these all around my life.
10:07Okay.
10:08And some of them are quite different.
10:11And the ones which are record that I keep on track of.
10:14Because most of the times I'm able to analyze them myself.
10:18Most of the time.
10:19And like she said, she keeps a job rather than doing that.
10:24And if you see the diary it has like in one year,
10:27it's got about 50 or 60 odd dreams or something like that.
10:30Yeah, I've managed to analyze them myself.
10:33Okay.
10:34You know, depending on the type of situation happening or whatever.
10:36Okay.
10:38Okay.
10:39Okay.
10:41I think the three chairs here forgot to utilize.
10:45So please do that.
10:48Anyways, so we move on to dream analysis.
10:50I'll just briefly give you three methods that are available in psychoanalytical practice.
10:58By which we can make some sense of our dreams.
11:01But like as I often say that dream interpretation is a lot more beyond these three methods.
11:08These three methods can just be used as a map.
11:12You know, but when you go into a real.
11:14Like when you are seeing something like a map.
11:16And then you are going in real to find something.
11:18That's a totally different thing.
11:19But they are very good as maps of what you can find in that.
11:23So the method A is actually the most traditional method.
11:28It's the most long elaborate method.
11:30It was given by Sigmund Freud and then has been extended by people.
11:34So what is done in method A?
11:35And I would be also coming to some specific dreams of people and their interpretation.
11:39So that this doesn't just sound a direct copy from the textbook.
11:45This is kind of thing.
11:46So the method A is that the dreamer is told to relate to the dream in as much detail as
11:52possible.
11:53And remember that those were the days when people used to go for analysis five times a week.
11:57You know, four times a week.
11:58The patient had a lot of time.
12:00And I am talking about 1910 and 11.
12:03And the therapist had time.
12:04So the dream used to be like related to.
12:07The therapist would say, fine, you know, you have this dream.
12:09Let's look at each and every image, part, element, specifically.
12:14And the way we go in psychoanalysis is that the dream, any dream is broken down into various parts.
12:25As many parts, as many images you could make from the dream.
12:28And then the person is asked to consider each element of the dream.
12:32And in turn say what exactly comes to their mind.
12:37Free association is the main method used in dream analysis and psychoanalytical therapy also.
12:43Where the person just holds the image in their mind and just attends whatever is continuously coming.
12:50You don't banish whatever is coming.
12:52It could be very important.
12:53It could be very frightening.
12:55It could be very depressing.
12:56It could be very trivial.
12:58It could be very dirty.
12:59It could be very funny.
13:00Anything under the sun.
13:00It's more like this meditative attitude where you don't shun anything that comes to your mind.
13:05But you would engage with that image.
13:07So that's what free association is.
13:11And so the person continues to associate to the dream and look at all the new material that comes up.
13:18Yes please.
13:18I have two questions here.
13:19A lot of times we don't remember our dreams.
13:21Right.
13:22So how do we go about doing the detailing part of the dream after getting up?
13:26See the easiest way is and that's the beauty of dreams.
13:30Because they are a work of art.
13:32They are not science.
13:33In science you need to remember everything very stupid.
13:35All connections, all parts and everything.
13:39But anything that you remember from the dream.
13:41You may not remember the whole dream.
13:42It could be just one image, one path, one sentence.
13:45You could just hold that in mind and start dwelling on that.
13:49That may not help you to recollect the entire dream but that would give you an insight into what it
13:54is about.
13:55So people should not really, I would say that don't really bother so much about what you remember, what you
14:00don't remember.
14:00I mean what you remember is very good enough to start from.
14:05Do you have another question or you said two questions?
14:08Yes.
14:08The other aspect is like after we get up we start up this process or do we, I mean tell
14:14our subconscious mind and then go off to sleep and recollect when I get up.
14:19We don't know where exactly do we dream and which one do we remember, which one do we remember.
14:23It's actually up to you.
14:25I mean these things it's very nice to be spontaneous.
14:28Right?
14:29That's one thing, once you not really take it as a work of science because then you will find dream
14:33interpretation such a taxing thing after like three weeks that you know just throw away your dream journal.
14:38So if you get up and feel oh this is something really important or interesting and I feel like writing
14:43it down right now do that.
14:45If you feel yeah I'm just too tired and I'm just slightly asleep and unwinding maybe your dream can wait
14:49till the morning, fine.
14:50If you have to rush to your office in the morning and feel that office is more important and maybe
14:55dream can wait till the evening.
14:56So dreams can actually also wait.
14:59Many times I have had people who have told me you know something which they had years back the same
15:04has happened with me also.
15:05I have also remembered some very old dreams and so looking back at them in the current context and in
15:11the past context also makes sense.
15:14It's just that, right?
15:15So we need not be here like you know researchers who are working in a molecular biology lab.
15:22We are not that kind of thing, right?
15:24We have a lot of free space and play and creativity with us and time with us, right?
15:31And that's the difference.
15:33If you go to someone to get their dream interpretation then that person will also associate to various parts of
15:39your dream and have a look at what feelings are coming up in the past.
15:42Which does not mean that you need to go to a therapist.
15:45You could also do it with a very good friend.
15:48Someone whom you trust and someone whom you can confide in that you can tell them your dream then you
15:52both could sit and break into parts.
15:54And then the person could also start associating to various parts.
15:57How do they feel about each part?
15:59How do they feel about each image?
16:00What does come up in their mind at each part?
16:05Right?
16:05Then it should be like a very good friend.
16:10and we have to get to have a very good friend.
16:16And that is absolutely right.
16:17When all these things are very good.
16:20Right!
16:21Okay, let me talk to you.
16:21In your favorite space like this.
16:22Legit code is slightly different.
16:24Xiao-Y لكن your reflection is big.
16:26Which concerns us so many people.
16:26Looking at myant, as you can't remember this.
16:27We also have so many people from being logical isolated.
16:28But we can collaborate with some not enseñat by how you prefix yourself to be able to justwhen
16:30you quizME. While
16:32things are lucky, you can't wait for friends it is clear or not. In
16:35your own sense that you can find how many people. Others
16:38It's like we talk about daydreaming, daydreaming may, it happens when we are in a daydream
16:44and I may not have seen, I may not have seen what like ghana looks like, but in my fantasy
16:51I could simply go to ghana and maybe imagine some trees over there, some chimpanzees over
16:56there, some nice exotic fruits over there.
16:59So dreams are like you know, speaking fantasies, like inner fantasies we weave many things,
17:04dreams are also like that, they are actually an art of mind.
17:09So that's there and in fact like so we need to kind of you know have this kind of free
17:16space
17:17like where we approach a dream with this idea that here is something that I have experienced
17:23and something maybe which I have not experienced, something which is known to me
17:27and something which is completely unknown.
17:32Yeah and then the other person or the therapist uses patient's associations as well as their
17:39own associations and knowledge of this person, that's very important.
17:43In fact if you engage with one person over a period of time then dream interpretation makes
17:49a lot of sense.
17:50You may kind of, if you are doing it totally new with no matter how experienced a person,
17:54that would really not lead you too far.
17:57So because it is like that you have to really know the person in detail to put deep in interpretations.
18:04Right?
18:07And then you can based on your curiosity, spontaneity, experience you could also intervene more actively
18:16with questions, observations, some kind of trial interpretations.
18:19Dream interpretations are always like the way we do, they are very open.
18:24We simply say that this would mean that.
18:27We are not saying that this exactly means that or this would be like that because the unconscious
18:33is the unconscious of the person.
18:36Neither do we know his or her unconscious, neither the person knows.
18:39Only the person is the best judge to say that yes, this clicks with me.
18:44So dream interpretation is also actually a lot about clicking.
18:47We are not, we are not archaeologists who are like you know going into something and digging
18:52something out and saying that look you know this is what it means.
18:57We are more like, we are more like interpreters.
19:01Just like you have folklore and myths.
19:04Each folklore has multiple interpretations.
19:06Dream also can have various interpretations and dreaming and dream interpretation ultimately
19:11has a role that what or how much sense does it make to the dreamer or how does it help
19:16the dreamer
19:17in maybe going further in their life.
19:21That's what it is about.
19:22So as I said that the dreamer has the last word in dream interpretation no matter how experienced,
19:28how trained you are, your narcissism should not get into dream interpretation.
19:33It can go in professional associations where you could you know stand up and write papers on dreams
19:39and you know knock it out over there but it should not go with this person.
19:45So any thoughts or interpretations that are suggested by a therapist or by someone else
19:50also should only be considered possibilities, hypotheses.
19:54It is up to the dreamer to decide what is useful or what is authentic.
19:58Rather than this question that what is authentic, the main question is what is useful for me.
20:05That whatever is being said, is it making sense to me?
20:08Is it making me go somewhere further in my life?
20:11Is it helping me resolve something that I am really stuck about?
20:16That's what dream interpretation is.
20:20Coming to method B.
20:22And all these three methods they are just, they are actually very intertwined.
20:26They are very related so it's not that they are like very different from each other.
20:31And if you have a look at method B and C they are more like you know they are actually,
20:36they were developed later to save time.
20:39No one has so much of time to really split and dissect the dream kind of thing.
20:44So method B is a slightly shorter and also slightly more intimate method.
20:51More creative also where the dreamer is allowed to imagine taking the role of each individual
20:56or character or object in the dream.
20:58Right?
20:59So if you have a tree in the dream.
21:01So actually hold the image of tree in the mind and you think.
21:05You just imagine or you fantasize that what is this tree like?
21:10What is it thinking?
21:12What is it being?
21:13What is this tree's being?
21:16Similarly if you see an animal, if you see a human.
21:18So you look at the dream from vantage points of each and every character or image in the dream.
21:26And you pay attention to all that.
21:29Because this interesting change of your viewpoint when you look at the dream from various aspects.
21:34Because ultimately what also happens is that the dream actually is a lot about our own life.
21:39And many times what we see into different images or different parts into different people,
21:46they can also be parts of our own self which we are not so much in touch with.
21:51So that is, this method actually takes you a lot closer to these things.
21:55And this change of viewpoint often leads to very important knowledge for the dream.
22:01Because all objects in the dream hint towards, may hint towards various parts of your self.
22:09Coming to method C, like most economical time saving one.
22:14Here, like you focus at the central image of the dream.
22:18The most important thing.
22:19We may have big dreams, we may have short dreams.
22:22But something about the dream that is, that catches something.
22:25That is very personal, that is not personal.
22:29But that holds us.
22:31That holds us emotionally or that holds us intellectually.
22:34Tied to that image very strongly.
22:37So we focus, we pick up this image.
22:40And this image which is most important for the dreamer.
22:45And attempt is made to identify, examine and sometimes intensify the underlying emotion.
22:52That when you hold this image in your mind, what is the feeling that comes from you.
22:56Is it like happiness, sadness, anger, rage, mixture of feelings.
23:02Because it is very rare that you just have one feeling.
23:06Feelings always are mixed and they are a mixture.
23:09And this often uncovers important material which was previously unconscious for the dreamer.
23:14By just dwelling on this central image and focusing on your emotions.
23:18And also looking at various thoughts that may come up within the central image.
23:26So, another interesting thing about dream is, like you were saying.
23:31So the dream can be both experiential and dreams are actually also very, very symbolic.
23:40Because you need to understand that dreams, the language of dreams is images.
23:46The main language of dreams is actually images which is a pre-verbal language.
23:51We develop words later.
23:54First of all we have, like when we are born and when we are developing language.
23:59The first language that comes to us is this pre-verbal language of images.
24:03So the language of dreams is actually this pre-verbal language.
24:06And that's why it's so close to unconscious.
24:08You know, it's actually this arena where words can never reach.
24:12So all we are actually doing is to translate one language into another language.
24:16And so, so the dream, in the dream your feelings may, are maybe like expressed as images.
24:26Like to give you one example that, which was very interesting.
24:31Like you know, one of my clients, she saw icy cold water in the dream.
24:37And we actually, for a moment we actually spent the idea that has she ever been to Antarctica.
24:43She has never been to Antarctica.
24:44She has never been outside India.
24:47So then like, you know, where did she see this icy cold water?
24:51So it was actually a visual representation of feelings of emotional isolation.
24:57When you are, we often say in words to that, it was very cold in that relationship.
25:03So that's how it comes in the dream.
25:06This icy cold water is that coldness or emotional isolation.
25:11Right.
25:13I'll just now go to an extended example.
25:15And this is the most extensive example we have.
25:18Because I thought if I put in more extended examples, we have more examples coming.
25:22But then we would have needed half a day or one day or more.
25:26Yeah.
25:26I have a question.
25:27Yeah, please.
25:28So the icy cold water, doesn't water, isn't water also a symbol?
25:32Doesn't it have some kind of connotation as well?
25:37Okay.
25:38Yeah.
25:38See, and we all have to wait for symbolism and the topic.
25:43Because Angelina will be talking about that.
25:45But I'd just like to mention here one thing about symbols.
25:48Because when dream interpretation started in psychoanalysis with Freud,
25:52he actually gave many symbols and what they mean.
25:54So there were very interesting ones and one last two.
25:58Because you didn't interpret the two pieces.
26:02Yeah.
26:03So few very interesting ones.
26:07This image of a staircase in the dream Freud said is intercourse.
26:11And Freud actually, about many things Freud said that they are intercourse.
26:14So for many images, Freud thought that they are sex and intercourse.
26:20So staircase is an intercourse.
26:23And then I think the bit also is an intercourse.
26:26I mean all things are intercourse.
26:28As for Freud.
26:30Sorry if we have someone who's a very dedicated Freudian over here.
26:33That I am not.
26:34So please pardon me.
26:36Right?
26:37And, but, yeah.
26:39So talking about the current status of symbols in dreams.
26:44Each culture, each civilization does have certain unconscious and conscious symbols.
26:51And there are meanings attached to them.
26:53Okay?
26:54So when you see something in the dream which is very symbolic kind of thing,
27:00what I would say is that you can, you can think that it could be that.
27:05But keep that as one of the hypotheses.
27:07It is highly erroneous to go into this whole zone that other staircases have to win the boots.
27:14So that's why.
27:15Yeah.
27:16That's why.
27:16Because staircases also is about, it's also about self growth.
27:20You know that when you are rushing up a staircases you are also growing.
27:23You are also like coming up kind of thing.
27:25So staircases can also be a lot of things.
27:27It can also be running from someone kind of thing.
27:31So it can also be an escape.
27:32It can be multiple things.
27:34Okay.
27:35So I would not really go into Freud's story of unconsciousness.
27:38That can be a talk and that can be a talk that I don't really want to do kind of
27:41thing.
27:42Okay.
27:42So, but what I would say is that there have been many controversies and many theoretical divisions
27:48of Freud's sense which is rightly so.
27:50Freud was a human, a mortal.
27:52He was in a specific time period with a specific set of rules and understandings.
27:58Though he was a very brilliant person I would say.
28:00But what he said, it cannot be taken as the word of the god.
28:05And it was never meant to be.
28:07Because also Freud did revise his own theories in his own lifetime.
28:10So people forget that many times.
28:12Right.
28:13But interestingly, despite controversies and theoretical divisions.
28:18And that's why, you know, asking if any other psychoanalysts in the world, Freud is still the best seller.
28:24You know, people still buy on sexuality, interpretation of dreams.
28:26You know, people still buy and they are ready to walk into any bookstore they are available over there.
28:31Right.
28:31So, yeah, what has remained despite all religions, research, various understandings.
28:37They have been so many wonderful people in analysis after Freud.
28:40Really wonderful souls who are actually quite sad about it.
28:43They are not so well known as Freud is.
28:46And, but what has stayed on is this Freud's idea.
28:50And I am very sure that many people before Freud have also given that idea.
28:55But in modern psychotherapy, Freud was the one who brought this whole idea about the unconscious mind.
29:00It was not his best company.
29:01There have been people, many people before Freud, don't ask me, I am bad at history.
29:05Who have been told about unconscious.
29:07No one asked me that question.
29:08Who talked about unconscious.
29:09But Freud did it before this century in the field of psychotherapy.
29:15So that's his control.
29:17And that thing has stayed on.
29:19In fact, you know, many modern researchers do talk about this whole subliminal mind.
29:27So, you know, subconscious, subconscious, what so ever.
29:30And we now also know that what becomes unconscious in a given individual depends upon a range of factors.
29:37So it's never in stone.
29:38It is the interaction of early upbringing, life events, socio-cultural, historical factors,
29:45and the person's own inner world and temperament.
29:48So many things make an unconscious.
29:51Human mind operates on more than one level.
29:53Many people say there are many levels of mind.
29:56And there are certain parts which remain outside of our awareness due to either they are painful for us
30:03or we have never actually got the words or the idea to pay attention to them.
30:09Right?
30:09So many kind of just don't know what it is.
30:12And yet, the interesting thing or the beauty or the misery of these things is that they hold us like
30:18wands.
30:19And they influence our minds.
30:21The unconscious is like that.
30:23Right?
30:24Some important postulates of Freud's green theory, though not of interpretation.
30:29Mind you, the method that he gave, you know, the method A, that is still very valuable kind of thing.
30:34And that has not changed.
30:35People have had very different opinions about symbols.
30:38Many people have criticised his meaning of symbols.
30:42I mean one among them kind of thing.
30:44But the method of interpretation has not been refuted.
30:48People still find a lot of value in that method.
30:51And what the way I look at it is that dreaming has a value of its own in the therapeutic
30:57process
30:58and in the life process also.
30:59Even if the underlying dream theories may have been modified.
31:05Right?
31:06Dreams have no absolute truth.
31:08That's again what I think and again what some other people think.
31:11It's not supposed to be again something in stone.
31:14They are a creative process of mind.
31:16And they are what we call this pre-verbal, irrational, primitive form of thought-continue.
31:21These are terms.
31:22Do you ask me what this exact means?
31:23It just means that it's a different part of mind.
31:26Right?
31:28So Freud believed that dreams were a mental phenomenon designed to preserve sleep.
31:33This has been refuted by modern sleep research.
31:37They say that dreams are a very natural, normal process of brain which occur.
31:42You know, just as we are awake and our mind is thinking and wondering.
31:46When we are asleep, our mind is again, you know, walking and wondering.
31:50So that's what dreaming is.
31:52You know, Shaisa and Freud is a very interesting.
31:54You know, that they are like gay people of sleep.
31:57They are this or that.
31:58So they are really, you know, taking the dreams on a pedestal.
32:02And again I said that no, I feel actually, you know, there is no who's in going.
32:07You know, there is no who's in sniffing their own, why we dream.
32:09You know?
32:10Or what is the true meaning of a dream?
32:12You know, many people, you know, there are many papers, conferences dedicated to this kind
32:17of thing.
32:18But I think that the better question is that what could this dream signify?
32:23You know, that's the more better usage of your own time and the person's time and everyone's time.
32:28How can we kind of make a better use of what we dream provided you are also interested and
32:35the other person is also interested?
32:36No one should be forced into dream interpretation.
32:38That would seem like a very horrible thing.
32:41Because even if the person does not have bad dreams, if you force someone to dream interpret,
32:45they will start having very bad dreams.
32:46So one should never do this kind of a torture on someone.
32:50And yeah, so the dream language, it relates thought language and it's a picture language.
32:56And I was saying that it's a language of visual images.
32:59And it is very rich in symbolic relationships.
33:02The meaning of dream, as we say, can only be assertive with help of dreamer associations
33:07and memories as we think psychoanalysis is there.
33:10People outside have very different methods in the very different kind of world which also
33:15might be very useful.
33:17Yeah, this is what is now generally leading to the language of dream even though there
33:22may be some universal symbols but it's a very private language.
33:25You know, even if there is a universal symbol in the dream, how the person relates to that
33:30symbol in his own life in his own context is very individual and intracyt.
33:37And yeah, it is also generally felt that when you do dream interpretation, so the person is like
33:45in part willing to get the dream interpretive, in part unwilling also.
33:51So that is there because yeah, the dream is into this zone where you may, where you want
33:58to go but you also don't want to go.
34:00So there's a conflict around it.
34:03And many times like in, you know, when we look at dreams and psychotherapy both times,
34:09often initial indication of a significant kind of a decision towards a healthy behavior
34:15or some kind of a change in treatment, it can like, you know, come up in great.
34:19Right?
34:19This was the theoretical stuff.
34:22Now I would go to the types of dreams.
34:24These are again the broad types that have been documented in psychoanalytic literature.
34:28There can be various other subtypes also for sure.
34:33This was the very first idea of Freud and it is also still believed that dreams are like,
34:40you know, wish fulfillment.
34:41By that we don't mean that dreams are helping us to fulfill our wishes.
34:44No, they don't obviously.
34:46But that, you know, our wishes, what we want, they come up very easily in the dreams at times.
34:52Yeah.
34:54And, you know, it's also just like that.
34:57I also feel that people are looking about dreaming.
34:59It's also like, you know, belting down tequila because it kind of, you know,
35:03it just numbs your sensor and you start doing interesting things.
35:06So in dreaming also your sensor is numb.
35:08And so interesting things come out.
35:10That's why very interesting wishes, you know, and at times we are like, you know,
35:14we are very surprised.
35:16Oh, okay.
35:16That's why it's a dream when that happens.
35:19So, dreaming serves to fulfill anxiety provoking wishes.
35:25Anxiety provoking because you may find them not so good in your conscious life
35:29and you may not be really wanting to go about sharing them with everyone.
35:33So that's why they're anxiety provoking.
35:35In your private life, they may not be so anxiety provoking.
35:39And we usually have two wishes.
35:42Like, our mind is actually full of many contrasting contradictory wishes, you know,
35:46because I have an identity of my own.
35:49I have a sense of self.
35:50There's a part of me which wants to hold my sense of self high.
35:53There are certain parts in me which don't go with my dominant self image,
35:56which I have to hide, suppress, but yet I want to live them out also kind of thing.
36:01And you get, and since the time internet has come, like, you know,
36:04we get so interesting cases of like, you know, I mean,
36:07I have many women calling me up at random and telling me,
36:11oh my god, I'm in this match for the last 15 years,
36:14this loyal person has just discovered the laptop and the cell phone,
36:17and it's so full of dirty talks and everything.
36:20What is happening, you know?
36:21So, I think the internet is actually most used to unconscious,
36:26you know, to unfold kind of thing.
36:28So, that means unconscious is having a nice life,
36:31but people's conscious life is being ruined.
36:35So, yeah, but I'm not an internet hater, you know, so that's okay.
36:41I mean, I think that both conscious and unconscious are very important.
36:44You need to gratify them both.
36:47So, yeah, so these wishes, they clash with their identity,
36:50moral values and dominant affectionate feelings.
36:54The process of dream work, you know,
36:56the dream work is also like a hide and seek, you know,
36:59it's like this which expresses, it's like peekaboo in which hides,
37:04you know, so it tells about, it's like both expressing,
37:06it's both hiding at the same time.
37:09So, that's like, so dreams also have a very playful quality.
37:15And now there will be short examples,
37:18you will not really take a look of any, you know,
37:20you take an extended example like that one.
37:22So, this is a dream of Miss C,
37:25who is a 31-year-old unmarried female.
37:27And being third girl child of her parents,
37:30she had to face a cold rejection from her parents
37:32as a larger joint family by the growing girl,
37:34quite naturally in her country, like a generation ago.
37:37Now, time for the things changing.
37:40She feels unloved and enraged in most of her personal relationships
37:44and has a very defective view of herself.
37:46So, that's what, like, you know, such a childhood will do.
37:49One, it will make, it will give you a very low self-confidence
37:53that you are, you know, down to dust.
37:58And this is something which is very hard to, at times,
38:02come out with for some people,
38:03some people who manage to come out with it also.
38:07And she feels unloved, you know, because when you would not be really valued
38:10and cherished for doing art, you know.
38:13And these things, see, no one really goes around telling their child
38:16that I don't value you.
38:18It's very simple.
38:18The way you would, you know, engage with different children with your child,
38:21the way you would pick them up, kind of thing.
38:23The way you would celebrate their birthdays, kind of thing, you know.
38:26How many guests are coming on each one's birthdays,
38:30what present are you buying, you know, kind of thing.
38:32Is it for 10,000?
38:33Is it for 5,000?
38:34It's a very subtle, subtle thing.
38:36They do give up the message.
38:37No one goes around giving the message very consciously.
38:40I don't value parents.
38:41That's that kind of thing.
38:42So, because parents also, at times, do it at an unconscious level.
38:46They don't like what they see,
38:48and so they are not able to reciprocate with that.
38:51Yeah, so she feels, she continues to feel unloved
38:55and enraged in most of her personal relationships
38:57and has a very difficult view of herself.
39:00So, she comes up with this dream and said,
39:02last night I had a terrible dream,
39:04a professional kitchen's huge pot full of hot soup,
39:08and I pushed my father into it.
39:10What an aggressive dream, nasty dream, you know.
39:13And his body came apart slowly,
39:15and I was wondering whether to throw away the soup or to drink.
39:20So, a very cannibalistic ritual here, you know, kind of thing.
39:23I woke up in terror because that's the conscious mind.
39:29How could such, how could I dream such a horrible dream?
39:33So, the associations were her pot of soup.
39:36So, she says, I wanted to, again, I have edited like the long dialogue.
39:40So, otherwise it's not so simple, you know.
39:44That's what each thing you get such a perfect thing, it takes time.
39:48So, a pot of soup, I wanted to build a professional career for myself as an engineer,
39:53but my parents thought it was a very masculine thing to do and pushed me into home science.
39:57So, that's something very interesting that happens.
39:59Like, you know, when someone is being devalued for some quality of theirs,
40:03they actually want to be the opposite at times, right?
40:07And the struggle actually intensifies.
40:10They want to be the opposite families wanting to push them into, like,
40:13so engineering and home science is like very stark, you know.
40:17These, when we are also talking about symbols, you know,
40:20so there are also these very personal symbols.
40:22When you think about engineering and home science,
40:23they are very stark symbols in Hungary, right?
40:25It's for a generation back.
40:27Maybe, you know, the present generation, they are not so stark.
40:32So, she continues, I hated home science.
40:34I had to brag myself to the college every day.
40:37Imagine someone wanting to be an engineer and do home science.
40:39That's a completely different thing.
40:41It was an extremely non-stimulating, interesting thing.
40:44Obviously, you know, when you are a machine, you know.
40:46And at times, I think I am unlucky.
40:48Had I been a male, everything would have been fine.
40:52So, there are feelings of suppressed rage also and guilt also.
40:56Guilt and rage are friends.
40:58You know, wherever you feel angry about someone,
41:01you will bash your own self.
41:03So, they are like very close good friends.
41:07So, and here, this is not so much about the dream and definition,
41:10but because it was a therapy session also.
41:13So, I said something like that.
41:14I said, come and think of it.
41:15You have a choice whether you could be a male or female.
41:17So, I just wanted to make this person think over, you know,
41:21that you are her own guilt.
41:22So, she says no.
41:24And then I said, I guess it is easier for you to blame yourself
41:27and be angry towards the parents when you love and care for them.
41:30That's what happens in close relationships.
41:33He's angry towards the same person and he can't do too much about anger.
41:38You know, either we suffer from a lot of pills or we do other things,
41:43you know, which are people take drugs and stuff like that
41:45to deal with this thing.
41:47And then she starts crying and says, it's quite true.
41:51They cared for me and guided me, which they did.
41:53They were good payers.
41:54They are pillars of my support, but they never helped me close me
41:57and kept me out of distance.
41:59You know, I was also very touched because she actually showed me this.
42:02She said that the baby is held like this.
42:04I was held because I was held like this.
42:07You know, I was not taken close to heart.
42:09You know, so that's her general feeling.
42:11That I was held very nicely by strong hands with a lot of care,
42:15but not close to my heart.
42:16Maybe my brother was, you know, closer to the heart.
42:20Right?
42:22And I had to give up so many desires just because they could not deal
42:25with the fact that I was female.
42:29So then we go on to the next image wanting to bring the soup and throw it away.
42:32That has her father in it.
42:34She says, as a child, I used to imagine,
42:36if there could be a pill which could turn me into a male, it would be wonderful.
42:41And there's also this very oral element in the dream, you know,
42:44that the father is a male.
42:46It's like a male pill, you know, that she is also bundling, you know,
42:50that it's like both her rage and also this male pill,
42:52that she's really bundling at this pot of soup,
42:54that should I drink it and become a male or should I not become a male guy?
42:57You see?
42:58She says, I like what boys and men did, but feel so angry also at the same time,
43:03why the women are second-grade citizens?
43:05You know, that's how unconscious conflicts are, you know,
43:08that you want to be that but you also feel very strongly against that,
43:11you know, kind of thing.
43:13And why are they not free to be?
43:15So I saw this theme of the conflict around the masculine and the feminine identity
43:20in her kind of thing.
43:22She has both the parts that they are in some kind of a conflict,
43:25which is, you know, like this.
43:27So this is again like a final thing that the dream seems to tell us a lot.
43:31I said, firstly, it brings us in touch with the intense,
43:34helpless rage which you experienced towards your parents for rejecting you
43:38because you are a female.
43:39Because you love them so much, you feel guilty and turn this rage back on your own self.
43:45Secondly, it also brings out the conflict you experience around your identity.
43:49A part of you wishes to be male, as in your context it was valued.
43:54However, there is another part of you which hates this
43:56and wants equal rights and acceptance of feminine.
44:00So that's what was then dated before, which again made sense to this person.
44:05Can't really say whether that was true, but it made sense to her.
44:08So the second category of dreams, and we will be taking the questions on the side finishes
44:13and you also have something to add.
44:15Otherwise, you will really get lost.
44:16You could note down the questions that you have.
44:19Dreams as expressions of traumatic past.
44:22There are certain dreams which are efforts to master a trauma.
44:25The mind goes through the traumatic material again and again
44:28so as to integrate thoughts and feelings.
44:30Face them and read himself.
44:31You know, a very classic thing about traumatic dreams is that there would be actually
44:34a lot of repetition in them.
44:37You know, people who have been traumatized, and I do work with a lot of people who have
44:41had been through intensive trauma.
44:42They have dreams which repeat.
44:45And they repeat many times as this, with small modifications or with no modification at all.
44:53So these dreams are repetitive, recurrent, and they leave the person with an intense threat.
44:59That's what traumatic dreams are.
45:03And then coming through dreams as a snapshot of self.
45:07Right?
45:08Which means that dreams can also be a reflection, not just of your wishes, your relationships,
45:14but also of your inner self.
45:16Right?
45:17This inner eye.
45:18So dreams also are at times a mirror of this eye.
45:22Who you are.
45:23Or who you think you should be or who you can be.
45:26Right?
45:26So many times figures appearing in the dream, they represent parts of the dreamer's own
45:33personality and various disturbances in self.
45:37And these dreams, which we also call the self-free dreams, they reflect various aspects
45:42of a person's self-function, including the body image, character traits, feelings, values,
45:49hopes, ideals, aspirations, and in the business, and whatever you associate with yourself,
45:53that can figure out the dream.
45:57So this is an example of this.
45:59Mr. J, whom I would call like this, that when 35-year-old man saw a different dream
46:04that he was hanging on an airplane which crashed down.
46:08We have the same dream for many days at 4 a.m. in the morning.
46:11And when people have these dreams, they are actually so dreaded.
46:14You know this whole business was having the same dream at the 4 a.m.
46:18and their mind gets working with something supernatural, like going to engulf me.
46:24They are very scared.
46:25Right?
46:26Especially if you have the same thing at the same time.
46:28So this person also kind of said that I have the same thing at the same time and I wake
46:33up in terror.
46:34Right?
46:35And I am further terrorized when I run into panic when I see the clock and it's 4 a.m.
46:40Because after it happened in the occasions, he had a felt that when he was back, he got if it
46:45is,
46:46that he was like a dream.
46:47But it is like a dream, it is like time, 5 or 6 or 2.
46:50But 4 a.m. was likely to sleep.
46:53So the dream actually was a reminder of a traumatic childhood.
46:57Mr. J was separated from his biological parents and given away for adoption at 4 years of age.
47:02At that time, he felt that something broke within his cell but had no words for business.
47:08It is rare. It's not common. This is one case where I saw this.
47:14So don't conclude that if 4 comes in the dream, it means something for any person.
47:19At the time, there are very interesting connections.
47:22At the time, for this person, and that's why I put this dream over here.
47:27This whole thing that is stage 4 and this whole game have a lot of symbolic meaning for this person.
47:34And this whole image also. Let's see how the dream is being expressed in a visual image.
47:39That he's hung on an airplane and the plane crashes down.
47:42Whereas what it is is that there's a break or there's a crash down of a set.
47:48I think you are also being passed to the back form.
47:51So please do fill them before you leave.
47:54Please do plan to leave earlier so that we get an idea how you found the topic.
47:59and we could also come up if you have some suggestions or some topics that you want us to focus
48:05on.
48:05We could do that and then share that.
48:07So that was what this dream was about.
48:10Another interesting way that the dreams would also come are as dreams as mirrors of relationships.
48:16So dreams also reflect a lot on the relationships.
48:20The relational dimension of the dream in fact is very interesting.
48:24The way the dreamer relates to the dreams in an algebraic treatment or even when they are telling to a
48:29friend or to their spouse is also very interesting.
48:34So we would like to give you a very small example.
48:38If you have a spouse who does not care, is not bothered what is happening to you.
48:45One way to engage that spouse is that you get up in terror in the night and shout and say,
48:49oh, I have this horrible dream kind of thing.
48:52And maybe then you will expect a glass of water and some talking that you may not do.
48:57So dreams are not, and see people are not manipulating when they are doing it.
49:02It is happening very smartly, unconsciously because the needs are operating at that level.
49:07So dreams are also a way of drawing attention, engaging related.
49:14You know, it is more like this that when a child makes a drawing and how he calls people to
49:20show them that, you know, this is a drawing.
49:22The child is also not just showing the drawing.
49:24He is maybe asking that, I want to say that your drawing is good.
49:28I want to say that you are good.
49:30So the same goes with the dream.
49:32The dream is also a drawing of the self.
49:34And people engage, you know, people draw other people to their dream, to their self in that manner.
49:43So dreams tell us about the way the dreamer relates to people in his or her life, right?
49:49Many a times, like, I have had this experience with two patients.
49:52Like, if they have a lot of hatred towards their therapist and they can't express it consciously
49:57and they don't have therapists interested in dream interpretation,
50:00they will shoot very long, nonsensical, meandering dreams.
50:04You know, and they will say, yeah, you know, I want to interpret this.
50:08You know, so, and you could be like, you know, going split and split and split over the screen,
50:12but not find anything, you know.
50:14So that could also happen.
50:17So the dreams also tell us about the person's interpersonal world and the pattern of relationships also.
50:24Write this interesting example of this wife, who is a 14-year-old female and had long dreams,
50:30which resemble the bottom dream.
50:31Much like my own, but don't presume that I had the same reason, you know,
50:35for having the dream.
50:36I had a very difficult reason.
50:37I haven't said, okay.
50:38It's personal.
50:39However, when we would interpret these dreams, you could actually get nowhere.
50:43So it's like you have a very interesting piece in practice, but you actually go nowhere.
50:48And that also happens and that's why I say that dreaming actually, you know, the reliability,
50:55if you do it in a very open mind, it's built into the dream.
50:59Because if the dream has a reliability to it, it will make sense.
51:01It will click something.
51:02If the dream does not click, then it's something.
51:05So we would actually get nowhere by interpreting.
51:07No matter, you know, at times, in fact, there was this interesting,
51:10I mean, she was so hell-bent that I interpreted her dream.
51:12She would write the dream on the paper.
51:14And about one dream, we spent simply four sessions in that,
51:17thinking various associations to dream.
51:20So that was not via me.
51:22She would come and say that, no, I want to get it interpreted.
51:24And let's see, you know.
51:26I'll give you all the material, more material that comes up.
51:29But you still get nowhere.
51:31So after several sessions in transplants,
51:34and transplants is a super technical term for Genvi,
51:37how the person, patient, client used it was in sexist.
51:42So we discovered that Miss Vyre actually feared
51:44that I would find her very boring and strong seeing her kind of thing.
51:47Right?
51:47That she actually felt that she has nothing to offer.
51:51She's very toward from inside.
51:52She has nothing intellectual to offer kind of thing.
51:54Right?
51:55And in order to spice up her sessions and to, you know,
51:59make me engaged into her life and her internal world,
52:03she was dreaming interesting dreams rather than authentic dreams.
52:08So these were big dreams like,
52:11I, in fact, used to tell her, I said,
52:13Aap Kapur Team Suru will remind you of this old movie,
52:16Mughal-e-Azam, you know, with its, like, you know,
52:18this brilliant, glorious Shish-me-hel, you know,
52:23but you just can't, but what you, you can't see anything in this Shish-me-hel
52:27apart from just the same image kind of thing.
52:30It's the same image that comes up in all the classes kind of thing.
52:34So that is what it is about.
52:36I'll stop here and we'll carry on and then we can have the questions later.