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00:00Sean McIndoe, it's that kind of week.
00:02It's that kind of year, Sean, where the Sabres are back,
00:06and now we're back calling the likes of yourself.
00:08We're having old Holmes days here, Sean.
00:10Ron McClain yesterday, and John Shannon, and just, it feels so good.
00:16Sean continues to write some of the cleverest hockey on the Internet.
00:19At Down Goes Brown, I'm sorry it's been so long since we've talked.
00:24Yeah, no worries.
00:25I mean, I think we agreed the last time that we would wait
00:28until something good happened to the Toronto Maple Leafs
00:30before you had me back on, and that was, I don't know, a year and a half ago,
00:35something like that?
00:35Yeah, that sounds about right.
00:37I think the Leafs were maybe not bad, but not good yet the last time we spoke.
00:43I think they hadn't even, like Matthews is 10 years ago,
00:47and it might have, maybe I'm missing, I'm forgetting one,
00:50but it might be longer ago than that, and it's too long.
00:54Yeah, I think now it's kind of, I don't want to be rude
00:57because you're a Leaf guy, but it's more familiar
00:59sort of having this conversation with you in a world where...
01:02Yeah, our tables have turned here.
01:03Toronto's digging out.
01:05Sabres are ruling the Atlantic.
01:07Two whole playoff series victories ago, that long?
01:11That's wild.
01:13As it happens.
01:14The Leafs are the Bills, we get that.
01:16Or the Bills are the Leafs.
01:17Sean, not knowing how close attention you might pay to the NFL,
01:20but it's interesting here how, like, the Bills have been such a phenomenon,
01:26and they've lost in the AFC playoffs several years in a row,
01:29and now the Sabres come and happen,
01:32and there's just no pressure with the Sabre thing.
01:35It's just, it's the best for a fan.
01:37It would be the best, and, you know, I can't help but feel like I need to apologize
01:43to all the Bills fans who were just mortally insulted right now
01:47when you called them the Leafs.
01:49But, look, man, I'm sitting here from a distance, you know,
01:55as a Leafs fan in Ottawa, two division rivals.
02:00So, in theory, I should be maybe grinding my teeth a little bit
02:04over the success the Sabres have had this year, but I can't do it.
02:07It's great.
02:08It's a fantastic story.
02:09I can sincerely say I've been rooting for you guys for a while now
02:15because I know the fan base.
02:18You know, we use the cliche of the long-suffering fan base,
02:22and I don't know if anyone has ever suffered quite as much
02:25over as long a period of time as Sabres fans have waiting for this season
02:30where things finally broke in their direction.
02:33And it's been great.
02:35You know, I've been kind of quietly rooting along,
02:38maybe not so quietly in some moments, and it was fantastic to see you guys
02:43get in the playoffs, win a round, and now you are well and truly Canada's team
02:49because you're playing the Montreal Canadiens.
02:51Right.
02:52So you've got about 80% of this country backing you, too.
02:54So no pressure, but we're mostly on your side on this one.
02:59That's what I think, too.
03:01I mean, I'm not there like you are, but I've had the same thought.
03:04My brother-in-law lives in Toronto.
03:05I'm like, Mike, is it crazy for me to think the Sabres are like Canada's team right now?
03:08And he's like, not at all.
03:10Everybody here wants you.
03:12And, you know, at least we're good enough, Sean, to beat Boston out
03:16and kind of take down Tampa.
03:18Montreal did the deed in the playoffs, but still like the Sabres beat them
03:22in important games and raced at the top of the division.
03:25And everybody loves an underdog, and Buffalo is that quintessentially.
03:28I mean, I've known from your writing for years, just like you're trying to show your love here.
03:36Not love, but just like respect for the fans and the tradition of the Sabres and everything.
03:41And you know as well as we do, maybe, how hard that has been at times with what's going on
03:47here.
03:47Absolutely, and I've never been a Sabres fan, but I grew up just north of Toronto.
03:54And, you know, I'm old enough that back then, you know, Buffalo and Toronto,
03:59it was like this little shared culture.
04:01We got each other's TV channels, and so, you know, I could watch the Sabres games.
04:06And, you know, I got used to the voices.
04:08I knew Rick Jennerette and all of that stuff.
04:12And there wasn't, at least back then, two teams weren't even in the same conference,
04:16so it wasn't like there was a rivalry.
04:18It was, you know, maybe a mutual respect sort of thing, if anything.
04:22And then it did eventually get in the same conference.
04:26Obviously, they had the one playoff meeting during the Hasek era.
04:30But, look, I've always got a ton of respect for the fan bases
04:35who have been waiting a long time for that win.
04:38And, you know, obviously, as a Leafs fan, it's not hard to figure out where that's coming from.
04:44But we've seen it over the last little while where, you know,
04:48we finally saw the Capitals get their cup, and we saw the St. Louis Blues,
04:54and before that, the Kings.
04:56And it was great to see, and it sort of feels like the table of the fan bases
05:03that are waiting has been losing members over the years.
05:09And there's a few of us still left, and I do count the Leafs in there,
05:12because as old as I am, I'm not old enough to have any memories of the Leafs winning anything.
05:19It's us in Buffalo and Vancouver and maybe a couple of others,
05:22but it's getting sparse, and we've got to have each other's backs whenever we can.
05:26So I've been pumping the tires of the Sabres bandwagon over the last few weeks and months,
05:32and plan to keep doing it for as long as this run can go on.
05:35So, Sean, we're both just like you in sharing, like, the TV channels and everything like that,
05:41Hockey Night in Canada, CTV, Channel 11 for the Leafs on Wednesday nights.
05:45Again, I'll mention my brother-in-law who lives and grew up in Toronto,
05:48and he would tell me how he would watch the Buffalo, you know, the evening news.
05:53I'm like, oh, what was that?
05:54And he'd say, well, there was always a fire.
05:57Fire on the west side.
05:58There's always a fire.
05:59I was going to say, it's always what's on fire tonight.
06:02That is the nightly news, the old joke that we always had about Buffalo.
06:07So, Sean, forgive me if you've written thousands of words about how you think
06:14or what your best idea is to how the Sabres managed to pull off this act here since December
06:21where they just turned on a dime and became one of the best teams in the league.
06:26Someone walks into a bar and sits down next to you and finds out that you write about hockey for
06:30a living
06:31and asks you, like, how do you explain the Sabres?
06:33What do you say?
06:36First of all, I mean, that's my worst nightmare to get found out like that
06:41and ask a bunch of questions that I'm expected to know the answer to.
06:45But honestly, part of what makes it a great story is how it really did kind of come out of
06:51nowhere.
06:52We've seen teams hit a rock bottom and fire a coach and turn things around.
06:58Usually that's a short-term boost, but sometimes the new guy just clicks right away.
07:05I've never seen it happen with a general manager this way before,
07:10where it really felt like that decision to say goodbye to Kevin Adams at long last
07:18and to hand the reins over to Jarmo kind of just changed something about the attitude, the culture.
07:26Whatever it was, it just changed the way the whole team carried themselves,
07:31the way that they walked into these games.
07:34And I don't know if that's it or if it's just the timing is more coincidental or what it is,
07:39but I'll be real honest with you, even when that change happened
07:43and the Sabres almost immediately started winning some games,
07:48even then I wasn't sold and most of us weren't.
07:51We're looking at this going, oh, okay, it's time for the annual win streak in Buffalo
07:56where they're going to roll off seven or eight or ten games in a row
07:59and everyone's going to get excited and everyone's going to say,
08:02finally, the Sabres have figured it out and they're on their way,
08:06and then they'll lose ten in a row and that'll be the end of it.
08:09We fall for this every year.
08:11We're not going to try to kick the football that Lucy's holding this time
08:14because we know how it's going to end.
08:16And this year, it just never happened.
08:19And, I mean, they have been an absolute, you know, just an absolute unit since mid-December,
08:26basically since they made that change.
08:28And obviously it was always possible to look at this team and see the vision,
08:35see the talent, see the pieces, and say, okay, if this and that and this other thing
08:41and if they were all to come together at the same time and the young guys did this
08:44and a couple of the veterans did that, yes, it could all add up to something reasonably good.
08:51I don't even know that we felt like the best-case scenario was going to be first place
08:55in the division and winning playoff rounds and home ice and all of that stuff.
08:59I didn't.
08:59But we always felt like if it could all come together, there might be something here.
09:05It just never seemed to.
09:07And at some point, you kind of shrug your shoulders and go, I guess it just won't.
09:11And that's why it was nice to be sort of pleasantly surprised this year.
09:16That moment, whenever it was for most of us, whether it was January or February,
09:20and you went, wait a second, this is for real.
09:22This is happening.
09:23There is no collapse coming.
09:25This is actually playing out.
09:27And that was the part where I said, okay, you know what?
09:31I don't know.
09:32I can't figure it out, but let's jump on board.
09:35Let's find out if Sabres fans are okay with opening the doors on the bandwagon.
09:39And if they are, let's fill it up because I know there's going to be a ton of support
09:43flooding in from around the league.
09:45We will.
09:45Thank you for all that, Sean.
09:47Sean McIndoe with us.
09:47We will be talking about this story for years still and just trying to figure out how it
09:53happened, like you have, and trying to put timestamps on it.
09:57Bulldog, it was what for you?
09:58Like the 10th win right before New Year's?
10:01Well, they beat Dallas on New Year's Eve, Sean.
10:03And they, and now, you know, Dallas was in the midst of like they lost four out of five
10:09or something.
10:09Maybe the slumpiest slump Dallas had all year was while the, when the Sabres were there
10:15to visit them on New Year's Eve.
10:16But they absolutely owned that game.
10:19And it was their 10th win in a row.
10:21And, you know, I like you, you know, we went through this a few years ago and it was all
10:26overtime and shootout stuff.
10:28And almost none of this was, um, there were a couple, but they dominated Dallas that night.
10:34And I thought they can play with anybody.
10:36And they weren't stealing games with, with goaltending.
10:38Right.
10:38I think Dallas is one of the best teams in the league.
10:40I think that was born out, even though they went out in round one here.
10:43And that was the game for me.
10:45I mean, I just thought they can play with anybody.
10:47I think they're going to do it.
10:49So I was early, I guess.
10:52I mean, that, that is a great, a great game to point to.
10:56I think it is, it is early.
10:57It's probably earlier than I got there.
10:59I mean, for, for me, it was, it, it, it, it just felt like when the streak happened, when
11:04it started and there was that moment when you went, okay, well, wait a second, look at
11:10the way that you, this Eastern playoff race is, is rolling out.
11:12Buffalo's got a shot here.
11:13You know, there's a bunch of other teams are struggling.
11:16By that point, it was clear Toronto and Florida were, were taking a step back.
11:20Ottawa wasn't quite what we thought they were.
11:23Detroit looked great for, for a bit.
11:24And then they started to fade and you're just kind of sitting there going, there might be
11:28a spot here.
11:29There might be a spot for Buffalo to get into the playoffs, sneak in back door, however
11:34you want to phrase it.
11:35And then it just kind of felt like closer to the Olympics.
11:38You just look at the, the standings and suddenly you're going, man, there's six points up, man,
11:43now they're eight points up.
11:45They're, they're going to do the, and it was that realization that not only are they making
11:49the playoffs, there's not even going to be any drama about it.
11:51The drama is going to be about where they finish and, and eventually it became, can they
11:55finish first in, in the division?
11:57Could they finish first in the conference?
11:59But it was that feeling of, you know, there isn't going to be a collapse here because there's
12:03not going to be any room for a collapse.
12:04They've already pretty much punched their ticket.
12:07And once you realize that, then you're sitting there going, well, hold on a second.
12:11How, how far can this really go?
12:13And the point for me where I really jumped on board and, and this was much later in the
12:20season and it wasn't so much jumping on board as far as, okay, this is a team that can make
12:24the playoffs, but it was that crazy Tampa game.
12:27Yeah.
12:28Right.
12:28Where, where they had, they had played Tampa a little while earlier and they had beaten
12:33Tampa and, and that's, that's great.
12:35Tampa's a really good team.
12:37They were the big boys of the division and it was a nice message, but you kind of felt
12:40like, okay, it's a long season.
12:42Sometimes you catch a team on an off night and that's what they had, that's what they
12:46had done there.
12:47And, and so, okay, the first win, not that big a deal, but then Tampa comes into Buffalo
12:53and it was like, it was as if the Tampa Bay Lightning said, okay, we didn't take you seriously
12:58the first time.
13:00Now we're going to take it serious.
13:01Now you're getting the Tampa Bay Lightning big boy game and you're going to get the full
13:05lightning experience.
13:06And we're going to see if you, you punks can hang with us.
13:09And they did.
13:10And we got that wild eight, seven or whatever it was final.
13:14It was, it, that was absolutely crazy.
13:16And, uh, that was the moment where you just watching that game in real time going, man,
13:22these guys are not taking a backward step.
13:24They are not even remotely that they, they don't seem intimidated.
13:29And I don't mean physically intimidated.
13:30I mean, like this, the stage isn't too bright.
13:33The lights are too bright.
13:34None of this stuff.
13:34They are ready to go with these guys.
13:37And, uh, you know, the fact that they won the game was a bonus, but, but just the fact
13:41that they stood toe to toe with them, literally in a couple of cases was that was the moment
13:45where I realized, okay, this isn't just a team that's going to make the playoffs.
13:49There might be something special going on here.
13:51This might be one of those seasons we see sometimes in hockey, sometimes in sports where
13:57maybe you got to turn off the brain just a little bit and go, something weird is happening.
14:01Something special is happening.
14:02I don't need to figure it out.
14:04But I'm just going to sit and I'm going to enjoy it for as long as, uh, as long as
14:07we get to.
14:08And, you know, here we are at the beginning of May and still going.
14:12Well, there are phases to discovery and levels of belief.
14:16I didn't think they were going to win the division on New Year's Eve when they beat Dallas.
14:21Um, but you know, it, it, it, it grew over time.
14:25And when they do that to Tampa, then it's just like, okay, they could win the cup.
14:28I think it's, it's where you get to when they play that way, or at least come out of the
14:32East.
14:33Anyway, there's nobody in the East.
14:34I don't know.
14:35We haven't really spent a lot of time on Colorado.
14:37Honestly, Sean, I'm just sort of leaving them over there for now.
14:40Yeah, that's right.
14:41But they, they can win this division and from there, you know, who's better than them in
14:46the East, uh, if you can run with Tampa.
14:48So, um, yeah, I mean, I, I don't, I don't, I don't get credit for thinking on New Year's
14:53Eve, they were going to get 109 points on the year.
14:56I just thought they'd make the playoffs is what I thought on New Year's Eve.
14:59And it just kept growing, uh, as they, you know, did more and more, you know, put together
15:03more and more streets of eight out of 10 and all this sort of stuff that they just kept
15:06doing.
15:07Well, well, Sean, I mean, you mentioned the lightning and they hadn't the week before the Olympic
15:12break, they had not played Tampa yet.
15:15And so I wasn't either thinking about first place, but they, they go to Tampa and lose
15:21in overtime.
15:21They had the lead with a minute left.
15:23They lose that game.
15:24They come out of the break and whip them.
15:25That's the game you referenced.
15:26Then they come here and beat them eight, seven.
15:28Then there's one more with Tampa here when they're maybe tied or just about, and the Sabres
15:34win again.
15:35And that's where I get there too.
15:37Like just, I mean, maybe Tampa is not as exactly peak Tampa, but they're close.
15:43And like, what can I do?
15:45And we, you know, how we're alike, maybe there's always like sort of this, you know, the possibility
15:52of losing, it's sort of like lurks over your shoulder all the time.
15:56Oh no.
15:56What if something goes wrong last night?
15:59It's four one in the second period.
16:01I'm like, okay, I just, I guess this is happening again.
16:05I mean, it wasn't, you know, a perfect game or an easy, exactly an easy game, but still
16:10like a pretty decisive game.
16:11They shut it down in the third period, which they did in that last meeting Mike just referenced
16:15against Tampa, where, you know, they're protecting a lead and just, they've learned how to do
16:19that, which is...
16:20And the Bruins.
16:21Very professional.
16:22You know, Sean, like this, this is a team that, you know, blew a four nothing lead against
16:26Colorado last season.
16:28They have learned how to protect leads and close games out.
16:33Yeah, absolutely.
16:33And you, you need to do that.
16:35And, you know, even, even the series before against Boston, which is a series that on paper
16:41you're looking at, okay, well, this team had this many points and this team had that many
16:45points and this team finished first and this team's a wild card and this team's got home
16:49ice.
16:49They should win the series.
16:51But it was kind of like, all right, well, maybe we believe it when we see it.
16:55The first couple of games in Buffalo, you know, Boston was right there with them.
17:00And then even, I mean, I got to be honest, even in game five, I guess it was, in Buffalo,
17:06which was a big deal up here, as I'm guessing you guys know, the whole thing with the Canadian
17:11anthem.
17:12That went real viral up here.
17:15Everybody saw it.
17:16People were talking about it.
17:17It was one of those things that it passed what I call the mom test, which is my mom who
17:22doesn't watch hockey and care remotely about it, understood that something had happened
17:28and wanted to, you know, text me and ask me about it.
17:30What's this good going on with Buffalo singing the anthem?
17:33So, you know, you're watching it.
17:35And then they go lose that game, right?
17:37Boston, Boston plays great.
17:38Boston wins the game.
17:39And I'm sitting there going, oh, no, did the Canadian anthem just take them down?
17:42Oh, is this the Canadian Stanley Cup curse?
17:45Did we just claim another one?
17:47Or is this how it's going to go?
17:49So I was very happy to see the Sabres wrap it up in six and not have to feel a
17:55sense of
17:56responsibility.
17:57That's fun.
17:57But it's fun, man.
17:59You can see it laying out, right?
18:00Because the way it's gone, and obviously this series of Montreal, we're one game in,
18:05and it feels like there's going to be a ton of twists and turns.
18:08Like, we haven't even got to the opening credits on this story.
18:13But, you know, to serve up Boston and then Montreal, okay.
18:17So we're doing the Adams Division reunion tour.
18:20And then you've got Carolina potentially next, which is, I mean, that's, first of all,
18:26that's the Hartford Whalers right there.
18:28And then could you go to Colorado and actually finish it off with the Nordiques?
18:33Nordiques, right.
18:34You guys could actually do the full old Adams Division.
18:38But even beyond that, you know, I know enough Sabres fans to know that the fan base
18:46still feels like there's some unfinished business from 2006 with the Carolina Hurricanes
18:51and, you know, a few breaks and series and pucks over glass and that sort of thing.
18:57So, you know, this is the great thing about sports.
19:00You have those wounds.
19:01You have those scars.
19:04But then every now and then, a really special team comes along and maybe it can start healing
19:09up a few of them.
19:10So we'll see how it plays out.
19:12But I'd love to have it go that way, man.
19:14That would be fantastic.
19:15I've thought about 2006 almost every day for the last month.
19:20I've never thought about Hartford and Quebec.
19:22I know that if I were playing this on NHL 26 when I got to the semis,
19:27I would only dress the Hurricanes in the Hartford uniforms and then only the Avalanche
19:32in the Quebec uniforms.
19:33I would figure that out.
19:35Right.
19:35But I love that you thought about that here, thought of that.
19:38Sean, you led here with us calling you because something good happened for Toronto.
19:43How about the week that's been there with the announcement and how that was received
19:48and then a day later you get the lottery win?
19:51I mean, just seems pretty turbulent.
19:53What's your take on all of it right now with the Leafs?
19:57Yeah.
19:58It was really something because, I mean, even going back before the press conference on Monday,
20:04the news of who they were hiring had leaked out a couple of days previous
20:10and the reaction had not been positive, I think it's fair to say,
20:13even among the fan base, let alone the various insiders around the league who were plugged in
20:19and there was certainly some reaction there as well.
20:23And then on Sunday they announced the hiring and then Monday is the press conference
20:28and, of course, we all saw what happened and how it played out
20:31and what some of the questions were.
20:33And just a real, man, a real dark cloud over everything Maple Leafs related.
20:40I mean, there were a lot of fans that I heard from or that I saw in various places
20:45saying, man, I might be out with this group because, boy,
20:49the season we just went through, a miserable season,
20:52and we don't seem headed in the right direction.
20:54And then you look at it and you go, man, they're hiring, they're bringing in,
20:58and we all love Matt Sandin, but a guy with no front office experience whatsoever.
21:03And John Shaker, who's been managing a Wendy's for the last five years,
21:06this is the best we can do.
21:08And Keith Pelley, who's not the owner but kind of represents the ownership,
21:13and then obviously in Buffalo you guys know what it feels like to maybe start to lose faith in the
21:19suits way up above.
21:20And just this hopeless feeling to the point where, I will be honest,
21:25when I was watching the draft lottery on Tuesday night and when I saw that number 12 pop up,
21:30my reaction wasn't even to cheer or to jump up and down or anything.
21:34I just started laughing.
21:37Because this is the most ridiculous team in all of the NHL.
21:41And now they've got the number one overall pick.
21:45And it doesn't change everything, but it changes a few things.
21:48It opens up some doors and some options,
21:50and it certainly changes the mood in a fan base where the knives were out already,
21:56day one for the new front office,
21:59and then day two suddenly everyone's looking around going,
22:01okay, maybe this will work out after all.
22:03So we all know that they'll find a way to screw it up somehow,
22:08but it was nice to have that little bump of enthusiasm in the middle of an otherwise pretty miserable week.
22:15And, you know, I think the hockey gods realized they had maybe kicked us a few too many times
22:20when we were down, so they had to help us up one time in order to prepare us for future
22:25kickings.
22:27Sean, future kickings.
22:28We ended on that note.
22:29Sean McIndoo, thank you for all your words spoken and written,
22:33and it's great to have you back on with us.
22:35Right on.
22:36And, you know, all the best from Canada to Canada's team.
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