00:00We saw a clear mandate in Kerala, the biggest victory that the Congress has achieved in years
00:05because the Congress, the United Democratic Front led by the Congress, secured a decisive victory
00:10in Kerala. For the Bharatiya Janta Party too, there was a breakthrough. The BJP has won three
00:15seats in Kerala, its best performance in the state, 140 seats, who was decimated the left
00:22with the result that for the first time in this country in decades, we will have a country without
00:27a single left government. We'll play those figures of what happened in Kerala in a moment.
00:3335 seats just to the left. As I said, over 100 to the Congress, a clear victory to the Congress.
00:4099 played, 35. That was a huge victory. Mission 100 just falling, just short of that in Kerala.
00:48But 10 years out of power, the Congress is back. Joining me now is the Thiruvananthapuram
00:52MP Shashi Thiruvananthapuram. Dr. Thiruvananthapuram, good news for the Congress came today from
00:57your home state. Southern comfort is what I'm describing it. How do you see it in the overall
01:02national context on a day when the BJP has had a hat-trick in Assam, has swept Bengal remarkably
01:09and actually won three seats in Kerala?
01:14Well, look, I mean, this seems to be an interesting election where both the government and the
01:18opposition have reason to take heart. We've got some wind in our sails nationally by winning a
01:24state that we haven't ruled in 10 years, which is definitely good news, but also doing so with an
01:30unbelievable historic majority of 102 seats out of 140, which is almost unprecedented in the annals of
01:37Kerala. And this is something that we can take a great deal of encouragement from as we go into
01:43Delhi as an emboldened opposition, looking forward to future elections such as Punjab and so on,
01:49where we might be able to repeat the same feat of seizing a government that we've not been in
01:54control of. So that's a positive narrative from our side. As you rightly said, the BJP has a positive
01:59narrative in West Bengal and in Assam. And Assam is less of a surprise. I think most assessments
02:06suggested that they would win. We might have wanted to lose by a smaller margin than we lost, but that's
02:12about it. However, Bengal has been a formidable result. And especially when you think that 10 years ago,
02:19they went into the 2016 election as a zero seat party in Bengal and they won eight seats. And then
02:26by the
02:26next election, they've gone from eight to 77. And from the next seat election, they've gone to 194, which is
02:32quite astonishing. And obviously, all hats off to the election management of the BJP.
02:36Let me stop you at that point, because, you know, it appears that the BJP seems to have learned the
02:42art of
02:43winning elections, Dr. Tharoor, or retaining power, like in Assam. The Congress finds it very difficult to break into
02:49BJP rule states. Yes, you won Kerala, but it is a state which you've taken from your fellow India alliance
02:56ally, the left.
02:57When it's BJP versus Congress, do you agree it becomes much more difficult as Assam suggests that the BJP, we
03:04are
03:04entering a dominant, almost hegemonic BJP era in Indian politics, Dr. Tharoor?
03:12Not really, because we have defeated BJP governments in Madhya Pradesh, in Rajasthan, and in Chhattisgarh, in the not so
03:21distant past.
03:22Remember that the Indian voter has a limited tolerance for incumbents, particularly incumbents, who manifest any sign of either arrogance
03:32or complacency.
03:33I suspect that anti-incumbency, for example, was a very major element in the defeat of the 15-year-old
03:40government of the TMC.
03:41That should be a warning to the BJP, because in the centre, they will be completing 15 years before they
03:47face the electorate again.
03:48And the electorate may show precisely the lack of tolerance for the incumbents then, as they've just shown in Bengal.
03:54So I'm not sure we should just be completely surrendering the country to one party.
04:00I think we have enough of a narrative today in Kerala that shows that the Indian voter sometimes wants change
04:07and is prepared to vote for change.
04:09And that could happen elsewhere, too.
04:10If I were the BJP, I wouldn't be immediately feeling secure and comfortable.
04:15They have taken advantage of anti-incumbency in Bengal, but they will have anti-incumbency against them in the centre
04:23when the time comes next time.
04:26So you're not giving up on 2029, because there is a feeling that with every state that the BJP captures
04:33now, it is a case of Delhi-Door-As.
04:36The Delhi seems further and further away for the opposition as it stands.
04:40Do you accept that the BJP is now poised to possibly use these election victories to get the momentum into
04:482029?
04:51That's too simple a narrative, Rajdeep.
04:53I genuinely believe, and you've written about these elections and how complex it is.
04:57In some ways, this is the beauty of Indian democracy, is the way in which each state has a different
05:01narrative, a different story to tell.
05:03And each state's political behaviour, its alliance patterns, its voting patterns, tends to be different from every other state.
05:10And because of that complexity of India, it would, I think, be extremely foolish to have a one-sentence summary
05:18like the one you just provocatively tossed at me.
05:21I don't believe you believe it either.
05:22But the fact is that that kind of thing excessively simplifies a far more complex narrative in our country's relations.
05:31You know, Dr. Tharoor, as I said, you have reason to be comforted by what's happened in Kerala.
05:37But we'll have a longer conversation with you where we can look at maybe what this means for the national
05:44polity heading up to 2029.
05:47Thank you very much, Shashi Tharoor, for joining me here on the show today.
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