Storia di ieri, storia di sempre, la vicenda ha avuto come teatro la scuola materna dell’Istituto “Olga Rovere” di Rignano Flaminio: una vicenda sconvolgente, che ha riportato la piaga della pedofilia al cuore della coscienza collettiva.
Tre maestre della scuola materna, una bidella e un noto autore televisivo, marito di una delle maestre, vengono accusati di violenza sessuale di gruppo, atti osceni, sevizie, crudeltà.
Ventuno i bambini coinvolti. Ventuno le famiglie che accusano.
L’ombra torbida, brutale, che ha avvolto il caso di Rignano Flaminio, è stata per lungo tempo chiusa in questo angoscioso interrogativo: quale la verità?
Dopo sei anni, clamorosa la conclusione: il Tribunale di Tivoli, il 28 Maggio 2012, assolve tutti gli imputati perché il fatto non sussiste. Riproporre la puntata è tema di scottante attualità, nonché spunto di riflessione su quale debba essere la giusta misura, nonché la rotta giusta da percorrere sia nell’azione giudiziaria, sia in campo mediatico, affinché un’emergenza sociale non scivoli nel dramma di un errore.
#FrancaLeosini #Leosiners #Leosini #Crime #TrueCrime #Delitti #Misteri #Killer #SerialKiller #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Mistero #Delitto #Documentari #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DivinumCrime
Tre maestre della scuola materna, una bidella e un noto autore televisivo, marito di una delle maestre, vengono accusati di violenza sessuale di gruppo, atti osceni, sevizie, crudeltà.
Ventuno i bambini coinvolti. Ventuno le famiglie che accusano.
L’ombra torbida, brutale, che ha avvolto il caso di Rignano Flaminio, è stata per lungo tempo chiusa in questo angoscioso interrogativo: quale la verità?
Dopo sei anni, clamorosa la conclusione: il Tribunale di Tivoli, il 28 Maggio 2012, assolve tutti gli imputati perché il fatto non sussiste. Riproporre la puntata è tema di scottante attualità, nonché spunto di riflessione su quale debba essere la giusta misura, nonché la rotta giusta da percorrere sia nell’azione giudiziaria, sia in campo mediatico, affinché un’emergenza sociale non scivoli nel dramma di un errore.
#FrancaLeosini #Leosiners #Leosini #Crime #TrueCrime #Delitti #Misteri #Killer #SerialKiller #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Mistero #Delitto #Documentari #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DivinumCrime
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00:29:51children's testimonies, not what the mothers tell me, but what the children tell me
00:29:57Obviously I have to feel them in a certain way, there are protocols.
00:30:02As for the fact that from 3 to 5 years old one is not sexualized, allow me to say that from Freud onwards it is certain
00:30:08That
00:30:09It's not like that. In a little research of mine, I interviewed 20 kindergarten teachers on
00:30:15this point and it turned out that children have sexual behaviors,
00:30:20looking under skirts, touching, masturbating and things like that, which is a fact by now
00:30:24Peaceful. From 3 to 5 years old? From 3 to 5 years old. But Freud and later. But be careful, this is not the case.
00:30:30the point. The point here is that these disorders that are attributed to the child, in cases
00:30:39that I have seen where I could see that there was no abuse, they have this characteristic
00:30:44to emerge, to come out, a long time after the alleged trauma. It is known to all that
00:30:52A trauma occurs immediately after the event. Well, here they occur after and paradoxically
00:30:58They increase the further away you get from the time of the alleged trauma. Why? Because
00:31:05the very investigative activity that has the aim of discovering what happened, which
00:31:11traumatizes children. Why are these children interviewed? In a trial I
00:31:16A mother said for hours and hours and hours I made her talk. They are interviewed by the police,
00:31:22they are set by the police, they are interviewed by psychologists, by now they know that
00:31:28adults are only interested in them so that they can tell what this and that did to them
00:31:33It's a danger that we often don't realize. I just want to say this, that the
00:31:38The Home Office has issued guidelines for how to conduct interviews.
00:31:45children. Rarely, by highly specialized people, who investigate how they were
00:31:52the first things emerged and that they know how to distinguish what is the product, the evil produced
00:31:58from the investigation itself, from the disorder the child had. How come, I will be told,
00:32:04these disorders appear homogeneous, that is, they all look alike, because such are the concerns
00:32:11mothers, that is, mothers who have been infected involuntarily, ask their children about these
00:32:17facts that consequently tell what happened based on the concerns
00:32:23of mothers. This is also characteristic. At the moment mothers don't notice anything,
00:32:28that is, months go by and a mother says but I attributed all this to the fact that a child was being born
00:32:34little brother, this change of mood, which of course is perfectly legitimate.
00:32:39What's going on? Then he finds out from another mother that some bad things happen in that nursery.
00:32:45things. Then he says retrospectively, ah that's why he was sick, not because he was being born
00:32:51the little brother, but why did they do dirty things to him? Question. How do you understand that
00:32:58Were you wrong then and right now, and not right before and wrong now? Answer: Why?
00:33:06Do they have symptoms? Yeah, but look at this kind of reasoning. The child has symptoms.
00:33:14because he was abused. The proof that he was abused is that he has symptoms. You see the circularity
00:33:20of the reasoning? There's no way out. External evidence is needed. What external evidence should be?
00:33:24be? But are they hard to find? Yes, sorry. Now let's pretend I have to take out,
00:33:32I ask his viewers that at a certain point we are dirty people who have to bring
00:33:37Outside a nursery school. So, first, I have to make sure they don't see me. How do I do that?
00:33:45What do I do with all the other teachers? What do I do with the children I leave there? Second,
00:33:51If I bring them into the hands of some other dirty old man, there will be some traces of a telephone or
00:33:58economic reasons that justify this movement? How come these traces that are found with the
00:34:03Underworld? Mafiosi? In these cases, they're never found. Can you explain this to me?
00:34:09I mean, in the cases I know of, not in those others. Why? For example, pedophile women.
00:34:17They're a scientific rarity. There are tons of them here. And why?
00:34:23Let's talk about reigning. I'm talking... How many reigning women are there? There are basically three masters,
00:34:29One girl makes four. Four girls. And then one support teacher makes five and two men.
00:34:36Now, since there are almost all women in the nurseries, when there is an accusation, excuse me. Well, if she takes the
00:34:40DSM IV, which is the most widely used psychiatric manual in the world, you will find that it is written that
00:34:49Perversions are typical of males, except for masochism, which is 20%. And so, as far as
00:34:55pedophilia, one cannot understand why women who have always behaved well,
00:35:00suddenly they become pedophiles. Also because pedophilia is a perversion that arises, like
00:35:05all people, early in life. And these are 50-60 years old. It's hard to understand
00:35:10how come in small towns like those, where the whole town went to kindergarten, it had never happened
00:35:15Nothing happened. Now everything has happened, but why?
00:35:19Aside from the fact that the English protocol is exactly the one we use in Italy, the judiciary
00:35:24interrogate like this. So our Carabinieri, our police are prepared, they know that they must not
00:35:29questioning children, he knows that there are professionals for this purpose, he knows that it has to be done in a certain way.
00:35:35So that English protocol is exactly what we use. Then, as for women...
00:35:39pedophiles, I have had cases of female pedophiles and they are, I must say, the most heartbreaking
00:35:45that I had to deal with. And all I can say to Professor Gullotta, because
00:35:49Hasn't it been known until now? Because in the past, pedophilia existed, but it wasn't reported.
00:35:55It was not reported.
00:35:55No, in fact, I was finally happy, Massimiliano Frasi said, I'm increasing
00:36:00The complaints, because he always said, are increasing. And I, no, are not increasing.
00:36:03We don't know the cases. We don't know how much pedophilia existed before.
00:36:07My mother, who is 90 years old, told me that it was customary in the countryside of Lucca, that it passed
00:36:13the old man of the village and he was touching the 7-8 year old girls. So in reality that
00:36:18We don't know what was there before and we will never know, because there are women of 90
00:36:22years that they were used to suffering, that they didn't say anything. So we can't know
00:36:27What happened? The state has no reason not to believe the children, because we question them.
00:36:33exactly as Professor Gullotta said. We follow that English protocol.
00:36:38Here, Professor Gullotta, but how could children invent experiences, because
00:36:47each of us has said, has read things, has read chilling pages, experiences
00:36:54with details that a small child cannot invent if they have not been experienced, for a small child
00:37:01I don't mean 3-5 years old, I don't think that perverted parents would start showing pornographic films like that
00:37:06to children. In short, how does a child invent? Because beyond that, she rightly
00:37:12she highlighted what could be the risk of a, she recalls the interview, I don't
00:37:18I love this term, of a solicitation of data collection of children with anxious mothers,
00:37:25worried, that among themselves they have been infected. But, I mean, well, there are many
00:37:30children who say details about sex, in short, but really adult sex, which only if
00:37:37they saw it, they lived it, that's the point.
00:37:39Doctor, let me fix the question.
00:37:47Fix the answer.
00:37:49How can you invent when I just said that these are not child inventions.
00:37:54And as I said, it is a result of anguished questions to the child that create
00:38:03A reality. A case. Grandparents listen to a little girl talking about putting a banana in her mouth.
00:38:13They interpret all this as they would interpret it in a barracks. After that this banana becomes
00:38:19a little pea, after which the wrath of God happens because the mother interviews the little girl,
00:38:26the recorder, then where did he put the bo, the bo, and he says the mouth, he put the baba,
00:38:34and she can't even say banana. Suddenly, in a recording, because it had been
00:38:38done, you can hear the family group discussing what they are about to say and they say, poor thing,
00:38:46think, he said he made it all up, poor thing, think what she's forced to say.
00:38:51It's obvious they told him, if you talk, we'll hurt you or your mother. The one who is a
00:38:57'hypothesis
00:38:58which is heard in the recording, suddenly becomes a reality in the process. The little girl
00:39:03He said that if I told it, it would be bad for me or not. Not a banana.
00:39:10we talk more, but this mother calls other mothers in the night, listen, mine
00:39:14Little girl told me they put this thing in her mouth. Do you want another case?
00:39:18I tell him. A mother says, I was desperate, at a certain point I say to my child, listen,
00:39:24But hasn't it ever happened to you that a man has put his dick in your mouth? Papale,
00:39:28papal. The child told me, poor thing, he told me no, but I understood him, because
00:39:33I understand my child and I expected, he even says, that the child would say, but
00:39:38What are you saying, Mom? From this we can see that it happened. Moms tell it,
00:39:43which mothers do not believe. A year later, however, faced with an ambiguous symptom, a
00:39:48Mom remembers what he said, then they call each other and it happens
00:39:54the fact. Professor, I give the floor to Teresa Maggi, and professor, clearly you were
00:40:00defender with, let's say, sensational successes, the cases of problems, but it's not always the case
00:40:05It happens like this. No, I'll tell you what I saw, but I'll do some research.
00:40:13scientific and I'm no longer the lawyer who speaks because I try to understand how it is created
00:40:17a false memory and if you give me a second I'll explain it to you. However, it is not excluded that it could
00:40:21It could also happen. I don't rule out the possibility that it could happen, for goodness sake, I want to try to make it happen.
00:40:25understand how this factoid is created, where a factoid is a thing
00:40:30which seems like a fact without being one. Either we know the limits of the human mind, or we say
00:40:35children don't count lies, children can't make up, so when they talk
00:40:40It's all true, so we condemn them all. We shouldn't think like that.
00:40:45Professor, we know the limits of the human mind, we know the fact that aberrations of this
00:40:50like they exist though. Dr. Manchi, please.
00:40:52But there is a lot of mistrust in my category, and that makes me sad.
00:40:55We, on the other hand, give it to him absolutely full.
00:40:57I think we try to make an effort to maintain these protocols, to use professionals.
00:41:06valid, precisely because we know that this can exist, but we also know that unfortunately it exists
00:41:13Child abuse exists, it's widespread. Pedophilia, we're talking about now.
00:41:18of that we say in fact, but if you go to look at pedophilia on the internet, I in the
00:41:22The first investigation I did had 7,000 people under investigation throughout Italy, in all sectors.
00:41:27of Italy and then I did another survey and the first survey that Italy conducted
00:41:34leading Europol, 25 European nations, we carried out 250 searches simultaneously throughout
00:41:40Europe and I assure you the traffic of goods, of children who are not only photographed, they are
00:41:45even movies with films that have to do somehow, it exists and it is a huge plague,
00:41:52so I can't think that children lie to me when I question them in a certain way,
00:41:58when I know that this phenomenon exists I cannot think that all mothers are completely
00:42:04morbid, also because I myself have an experience in the mother's company, why then I
00:42:10I ask my son's nursery this doesn't happen.
00:42:13Professor Gulotta, there is a specific symptomatology that usually manifests itself in a
00:42:19child who has been sexually abused?
00:42:21No, stress responses are nonspecific in all humans, those that are
00:42:27so called indicators are simply clues that have no chance
00:42:34to provide effective evidence of the trauma that is at the origin of these disorders. Also
00:42:39children's drawings, often considered as significant, in a recent research
00:42:45who compared drawings of children who were certainly abused with children who were certainly not abused,
00:42:51he was able to observe that for example phallic drawings are made by children not
00:42:57abused and perhaps by those abused they do not make them of a phallic type. This is to say that even
00:43:02This type of sign is not significant. This is the great difficulty.
00:43:07But for example, always having to trace the problem back to Rignano, these mothers, logically
00:43:15She has her opinion, no, I don't have any opinion about Rignano.
00:43:18No, he has his own general opinion, not on the specific case, not on the merits of this
00:43:23specific case, is that these mothers may have been infected, influenced, but these mothers
00:43:28they reported for example of disorders, not only of attitudes and behaviors
00:43:37of these children who are practically repeated in all cases of these children, that is children
00:43:45who suddenly had a regression to their most previous childhood, that is, children who ask
00:43:51the bottle at 5 years old, who ask, I don't know, who pee in the bed, children who have
00:43:57for example, those who suffer from sudden insomnia, who no longer eat, who are afraid of being
00:44:02alone, children who have a morbid interest in sexual organs, it is true that sexuality
00:44:08as she said it develops very early, but they have a morbid interest, they have not
00:44:12only erotic behaviors, they masturbate.
00:44:15I was telling her that the stress response is specific, I'm afraid of losing a case
00:44:20and I have a urge to vomit, I'm afraid I won't be good in a TV interview, I have a urge
00:44:26of vomiting. I cannot, having a fit of vomiting, she cannot, having a fit of vomiting, establish
00:44:31if I'm afraid of failing a television interview or I'm afraid of losing a case, why
00:44:36It's the way my body reacts to stress, that's why it's called specific.
00:44:41a child who has a sibling, who is interviewed too much, has precisely those
00:44:49responses that are later attributed to abuse, assuming that the abuse occurred.
00:44:55I don't know if I explained myself.
00:44:56Yes, that's his concept.
00:44:58For example, I have had cases of sexualized behavior in 4-year-old children, with games
00:45:05specific sexual penetration, which psychologists are trained precisely because they are exclusively psychologists
00:45:13children have attributed to abnormal behavior in a 4-year-old child, because
00:45:20Sexuality may exist, but it is a type of infantile sexuality, not an adult one.
00:45:25Penetration is typical of adult sexuality, so when psychologists
00:45:32They saw this type of behavior and traced it back to abuse.
00:45:37Among other things, I have to say that the reality of Pistoia, the school, was not so much
00:45:43the abuser, but those who have revealed the abuse, because these psychologists who work
00:45:49The teachers also prepared us and many times the teachers were the first
00:45:56adults who understood that children were being abused in other environments, that is, the situation
00:46:01of Rignano is exactly the opposite.
00:46:03It was the teachers who realized that there could be abuse in the family,
00:46:07precisely because they are adequately prepared to see certain signals and certainly children
00:46:13who go to the school bathroom and play with pencils to penetrate each other's anus is not
00:46:19a behavior that is normal at 4-5 years old, also because I repeat, then I and all the
00:46:25My mothers, friends, we have silly children, because at 7 years old they don't do these things, they don't
00:46:31they don't even know how, that is, they know how a child is born, that is, that it is born from the womb
00:46:36of the mother, but they don't even know how the seed gets into the mother's womb, so
00:46:40either the normal children are particularly stupid, or evidently these psychologists who have
00:46:46the teachers gave him some indicators, then there is another indicator
00:46:50In my opinion, it is important from what I have heard in science itself, in world psychology
00:46:56and they are anorexia and bulimia, that is, it is proving that in girls who are then practically of age
00:47:05adolescents or even young adults have problems with anorexia or mulimia, so
00:47:14however, problems related to orality, almost always behind which it is discovered that there is
00:47:19an abuse, because they are...
00:47:22It's not like that, doctor, it's not like that...
00:47:24This is what psychologists say, other psychologists say...
00:47:29No, doctor, it's not like that, it's not like that, now all the bulimics and all the anorexics
00:47:34they will go hunting to know how they were abused, it is not like that, it is not like that, the research
00:47:41They absolutely don't say this, the teachers have done it, there are some very good ones for
00:47:46charity, they have often made a lot of messes because they were badly prepared, because
00:47:50they infer that there has been abuse from the fact that the child does not study, from the fact that the
00:47:55child withdraws on his own, from the fact that the child has changed mood, because now
00:48:01everything comes back to that, you have to be very, very careful, you have to have, first of all,
00:48:07a greater knowledge than we have about child sexuality, for example
00:48:11that children look at each other, touch each other, introduce things to each other, it's a fact that happens, it has no,
00:48:17this absolutely does not prove that they saw it, secondly, what do they see on television
00:48:22our children, with all due respect since we are on television, what do they see,
00:48:27one of the cases the little girl said, but I saw this on television.
00:48:39I say that we must be careful of false positives, that is, taking those as paedophiles.
00:48:46that they are not, with the result that those who are will always escape. The truth is
00:48:52that when you make dust, you shouldn't say you can't see, because
00:48:55if things were done well and things were not always presumed, but people started to say
00:49:01Let's immediately question this child, let's see what he is saying, how this thing came about,
00:49:05I realize that this symptom can also arise from something else, no, listen, since you don't study,
00:49:10Did dad happen to touch you, now I'm obviously making things absurd,
00:49:16but if we start to think like this the trials will become thousands and I'm really sorry about that
00:49:21for the many people who will be able to cause trouble and for the real dirty people who will escape.
00:49:25But the fact, for example, doctor, that many children, and I must necessarily refer to
00:49:31in Rignano Flaminio, they repeat the same rituals, the same erotic games, the same experiences
00:49:40experienced within the school, however with these people who have been investigated,
00:49:44Is it also an indicator of reliability?
00:49:47It's a fact that makes you think, certainly, because we're not talking about a child here.
00:49:52who suddenly doesn't study, this is talking about children who do rituals and games
00:49:56that cannot have been invented.
00:50:00And I repeat, if someone can have invented it, having it invented at 19, at 24 is impossible,
00:50:05because I challenge anyone to teach children to tell everyone the same thing,
00:50:09the effort that the teachers themselves make.
00:50:11So I think it's just impossible for the 24 children to learn the same script.
00:50:17and say the same things, even more so if they have obsessive-compulsive behaviors,
00:50:21repeated and all the same.
00:50:23The only thing that, since we are clearly equidistant, we try to look at
00:50:28the situation necessarily referring to Rignano Flaminio,
00:50:32of course, the only thing one thinks about is how these children did during school hours
00:50:37to be deported to other environments with classes that were emptying,
00:50:42because here we are talking about 15, maybe even 24 children,
00:50:46let's put it this way, even the fact that so many children were abused,
00:50:50then it didn't become dangerous anymore.
00:50:53And there is not a single witness who saw them outside the school.
00:50:56Professor, let me finish.
00:50:58Yes, please.
00:50:59Even the fact that so many children were abused,
00:51:01I'm trying to look at things from the other side,
00:51:04in short, you can silence a child or two children,
00:51:06the plaggi, the sterilizi, etc.,
00:51:08but the fact that so many children were abused,
00:51:13let's say, this becomes, leaves more perplexed,
00:51:16why so many children are silenced,
00:51:18reduced to the slavery of the mind.
00:51:19I take two or three, I victimize those two or three,
00:51:21because I have to take 24, sorry.
00:51:23It has already happened in Turin and it happened in Trescia.
00:51:24And they say the same things,
00:51:26because they are exactly the same things
00:51:28that the mother, have exactly the same fears.
00:51:30And so they interview them like this.
00:51:32That is, it is not a given that mothers have these fears,
00:51:34There are also salt mothers who have no fears.
00:51:36What I know, phone calls in the night,
00:51:38ask there, but the child said no, insist.
00:51:40Yes, but you can't generalize.
00:51:41No, of course.
00:51:42For example, this week the Court of Cassation
00:51:45overturned the sentence of the Court of Appeal of Brescia
00:51:48who had acquitted the nuns of the kindergarten in Brescia,
00:51:53postponing the proceedings,
00:51:54because the solution was not considered valid.
00:51:58No, no, it was not cultivated with good reason.
00:52:00Well motivated.
00:52:00Meanwhile, the Court of Cassation has overturned the Brescia solution ruling.
00:52:04Let's hope we have the same common sense
00:52:05of the other section of the Court of Appeal.
00:52:07Listen, doctor,
00:52:08an embarrassing question,
00:52:10I understand for her.
00:52:12If it had been her, let's say,
00:52:14to conduct the investigations in Lignano Flaminio,
00:52:16what would he have done?
00:52:18First of all, I don't know what my colleagues did.
00:52:20Well, it's more or less been written.
00:52:22No, it's not that I know,
00:52:24I'll wait until I see the court documents.
00:52:26But the point is this,
00:52:27that in front of these mothers
00:52:30in the meantime I would have immediately nominated
00:52:33valid psychological consultants,
00:52:35that is, that I know for sure,
00:52:39certainly,
00:52:39that I am able to conduct
00:52:41children's hearing in a certain way
00:52:42and also that they do an assessment on the mothers.
00:52:45Because I have to say something,
00:52:46that my consultants,
00:52:48those of the women's center of Pistoia,
00:52:50they have always assessed the entire family
00:52:52when there is an abused child,
00:52:53precisely because we know it can happen
00:52:56of the mother who has these problems
00:52:59or the father.
00:53:00So in the meantime my psychologist
00:53:02must have a complete vision of the family,
00:53:06general, wide-ranging,
00:53:07to understand if there really can be
00:53:10an episode or influence on the child.
00:53:13Then the child's interrogation
00:53:15it has to be done in a certain way,
00:53:17videotaped,
00:53:18and then above all,
00:53:20as soon as I heard the news,
00:53:21before it goes public,
00:53:23a series of investigations.
00:53:25And I wanted it.
00:53:27For example, I had a case
00:53:28where we placed the micro spies,
00:53:31we carried out environmental investigations
00:53:32at home.
00:53:32And I wanted to get there, doctor.
00:53:34And we had at one point,
00:53:36one evening of screams,
00:53:38a child's situation
00:53:40which could be compatible
00:53:43with abuse.
00:53:47and immediately,
00:53:49following an intervention,
00:53:51the child was with his father at the time,
00:53:53he was taken to a pediatrician
00:53:56and the father said
00:53:57no, no, but he was screaming.
00:53:58And he said,
00:53:59they said,
00:53:59we said,
00:54:00we heard him scream,
00:54:01the neighbors heard the child screaming,
00:54:02we said,
00:54:03we have the bugs.
00:54:04Of course, oil.
00:54:05No, he says,
00:54:06we're putting the argotone on him,
00:54:07I was putting argon in my nose
00:54:09and then the child screamed
00:54:10because he couldn't stand argot.
00:54:12The pediatrician,
00:54:13which coincidentally,
00:54:14he is also a crime novel writer,
00:54:16he immediately noticed one thing,
00:54:17he says,
00:54:17but strange,
00:54:18the argotone stains
00:54:19and if he had put the argotone on her three hours ago,
00:54:22the child's nose would be stained.
00:54:24It is not stained.
00:54:25So,
00:54:25meanwhile he made the father believe,
00:54:28his lie.
00:54:30We had other findings
00:54:32and we had an expertise
00:54:33on the family environment,
00:54:34that is, on the separated mother and father
00:54:36and on their fears,
00:54:38such expertise that at a certain point
00:54:40It was my mother who led me to investigate.
00:54:42But not for pedophilia,
00:54:44for complicity
00:54:45in the violence of her husband,
00:54:47because even though I'm separated
00:54:49he hadn't done certain things.
00:54:50So,
00:54:51I have always been,
00:54:52let's say,
00:54:52served not only by objective evidence,
00:54:54but also comprehensive appraisals
00:54:56who also control the family.
00:54:59referring to the investigations,
00:55:00perhaps it would have been more prudent
00:55:02carry out a series of preventive investigations,
00:55:06that is, to pad the country with bugs,
00:55:09stuff the school with hidden cameras,
00:55:12stuff the houses,
00:55:13these people's cars,
00:55:15Anyway,
00:55:16and of all of them too,
00:55:17of the parents,
00:55:18etc,
00:55:18etc,
00:55:19but before it was made known
00:55:21that there was an ongoing investigation,
00:55:22because then it's clear
00:55:23what interceptions have there been,
00:55:25but without success,
00:55:27that the videos,
00:55:28In short,
00:55:29that practically everything has taken place
00:55:30to a regularity,
00:55:31but because it was already known,
00:55:32I don't know,
00:55:32because maybe many things
00:55:34we ignore them
00:55:34and they were made,
00:55:35but at least in the,
00:55:37Like this,
00:55:37in what it is,
00:55:38let's say,
00:55:38the disclosed,
00:55:39the things disclosed so far,
00:55:41In short,
00:55:42the facts,
00:55:42let's say,
00:55:42on the investigative level they are like this.
00:55:45Now,
00:55:46professor,
00:55:48there is the noto card
00:55:49which sets the guidelines
00:55:52of the exam
00:55:52of the minor
00:55:53in case of abuse,
00:55:55Here you are,
00:55:55in this note card
00:55:56it's written
00:55:57that we need to inform,
00:55:59and I would like him to answer me
00:56:00just on this,
00:56:02inform the minor
00:56:03of his rights
00:56:05and what is happening,
00:56:06before,
00:56:07she says interview,
00:56:08I say,
00:56:08before speaking to him,
00:56:09I say.
00:56:09Here you are,
00:56:09compatibly,
00:56:10Obviously,
00:56:11with the ability to understand
00:56:12which is the little one
00:56:12depending on age,
00:56:14he has to understand
00:56:15and know
00:56:15What,
00:56:16because we are interviewing him.
00:56:19But it's not a way
00:56:20to influence it.
00:56:21But be careful,
00:56:22not to influence him,
00:56:23in the sense that,
00:56:24if that means
00:56:25prepare him to give
00:56:26the answers of the type,
00:56:28tell that
00:56:28what you already said
00:56:29to mom,
00:56:30this is not good
00:56:31and we often find
00:56:32that is so.
00:56:33This means,
00:56:34let's go to a gentleman,
00:56:35from a lady
00:56:36who wants to know
00:56:36what happens at the nursery.
00:56:38Point.
00:56:38You tell that
00:56:39that you remember.
00:56:40Point.
00:56:41Which doesn't mean,
00:56:42now you tell me
00:56:43of that time that
00:56:44I saw an evidentiary incident
00:56:46in which a child
00:56:47he went with the paper.
00:56:48One, two, three, four.
00:56:51He says it was fine like this.
00:56:52Gelatinous borders.
00:56:53Anyway,
00:56:54Dr. Maggi,
00:56:55there is this now,
00:56:57next,
00:56:58In short,
00:56:58it is taking place,
00:57:00let's say,
00:57:01the evidentiary incident phase
00:57:05precisely
00:57:06wanted by the GIP,
00:57:07from the Public Prosecutor
00:57:08and precisely ordered by the GIP
00:57:09for this case of Lignano.
00:57:11Here you are,
00:57:12in her opinion
00:57:12will have a valid result
00:57:14this evidentiary incident?
00:57:17It's hard to say
00:57:18because when we talk
00:57:19of children and accidents
00:57:20in the meantime we have to see
00:57:21how it is conducted.
00:57:22Petro,
00:57:23by now we already have
00:57:24of the protocols
00:57:24so we tend to lead
00:57:25in a certain way.
00:57:27Unfortunately it happened to me
00:57:28one thing,
00:57:28once,
00:57:29who is a child
00:57:30of which we had evidence
00:57:32because we had
00:57:33bugs in the house
00:57:34of which we had
00:57:36and there were no complaints
00:57:38from the mother's side
00:57:39but of the grandparents
00:57:40but we had the bugs
00:57:42which then at first
00:57:43he told
00:57:44to psychologists
00:57:45a truth
00:57:46in evidentiary incident
00:57:48he didn't say anything
00:57:49he didn't say anything
00:57:50Why
00:57:52probably scared
00:57:53at fault
00:57:55for what we
00:57:56we had done
00:57:57to his father
00:57:58and to his mother.
00:57:59there is also this to say
00:58:00that the children
00:58:00they feel a lot
00:58:01the fault
00:58:05of the repercussions
00:58:05about people
00:58:06that they love
00:58:07Therefore
00:58:08if it's true
00:58:09as they said
00:58:09the teachers
00:58:10the only thing
00:58:10who are from Lignano
00:58:11it's that they loved them so much
00:58:13the children
00:58:13if they realize
00:58:15that they did badly
00:58:16to some teachers
00:58:17who love so much
00:58:18they will tend rather
00:58:19not to say
00:58:20what to say
00:58:20this is my experience
00:58:21Unfortunately.
00:58:22in her opinion
00:58:22In summary
00:58:24professor
00:58:24Glotta
00:58:24it could have consequences
00:58:26on the child's psyche
00:58:27of these children
00:58:28from Lignano?
00:58:29the consequences
00:58:30that they should have
00:58:30they've already had them
00:58:31in the sense that they were
00:58:32already questioned
00:58:33many times
00:58:34but the fact of having to
00:58:34repeat
00:58:35since this
00:58:36evidentiary incident
00:58:37it will have to be done
00:58:38is
00:58:39to the skill
00:58:40and skill
00:58:41and preparation
00:58:42of psychologists
00:58:43try to establish
00:58:44as
00:58:45they were born
00:58:46these speeches
00:58:48that they brought
00:58:48to this accusation
00:58:49this will be the fire
00:58:51and that is
00:58:51tell me the first time
00:58:53that you told it
00:58:54how it was
00:58:54remember me well
00:58:56these things
00:58:56the evidentiary incentive
00:58:58will have to look for
00:58:58to distinguish
00:59:00in memory
00:59:01of the child
00:59:02what happened
00:59:03compared to what it was
00:59:04if they are capable
00:59:05to do this
00:59:06on the other hand
00:59:08This
00:59:08but I asked her
00:59:09briefly
00:59:10if he can have
00:59:10of the consequences
00:59:11on the psyche
00:59:12the consequences
00:59:13that they should have had
00:59:14as I told you
00:59:14they have already had them
00:59:15it won't be this time
00:59:16in addition
00:59:17it had to be done immediately
00:59:18not now
00:59:19anyway now
00:59:20at this point
00:59:21you have to do it
00:59:21Why?
00:59:22why they happened
00:59:23new facts
00:59:26the consultant
00:59:27of the public prosecutor
00:59:28he interviewed them
00:59:29again
00:59:29and then we will have to understand
00:59:31otherwise one has to keep
00:59:32what he did
00:59:33the consultant
00:59:33of the public prosecutor
00:59:34now let's hear about it
00:59:36what he declared
00:59:37the father of a
00:59:38of the alleged victims
00:59:40to our cameras
00:59:42the evidentiary incident
00:59:44I think he has
00:59:45its pros
00:59:46and its cons
00:59:46Surely
00:59:47starting from the assumption
00:59:49that certain children
00:59:50they could be better
00:59:51because anyway
00:59:51it's passed
00:59:53a fairly important time
00:59:55from October 12th
00:59:56for example
00:59:58certain children
00:59:58Surely
00:59:59they are sick
00:59:59they are sick
01:00:00Exactly
01:00:01but some are better off
01:00:02to revive
01:00:04to those who are better off
01:00:05what they have already experienced
01:00:06and they already had to tell
01:00:07heavily
01:00:08Surely
01:00:09it would be a bad thing
01:00:10on the other hand
01:00:11for those who are
01:00:11still bad
01:00:12and when I say bad
01:00:13I underline it
01:00:14there was a child
01:00:14in particular
01:00:15which would seem
01:00:16have a problem
01:00:18of behavior
01:00:19dissociation
01:00:20of behavior
01:00:21that is, it is no longer recognizable
01:00:23he doesn't answer anymore
01:00:25to his name
01:00:26this is one thing
01:00:27very serious
01:00:27probably
01:00:28for that child
01:00:29it would be better
01:00:29Instead
01:00:30take him to treatment
01:00:32as quickly as possible
01:00:33and this could be done
01:00:34only after
01:00:35the evidentiary incident
01:00:36one last question
01:00:37for Dr. Marci
01:00:37Professor Gulotta
01:00:39in one of his essays
01:00:40he wrote
01:00:41that in the case
01:00:41of sexual abuse
01:00:42the justice machine
01:00:44ends up creating
01:00:45the monster
01:00:46who thinks he's fighting
01:00:47how does he respond?
01:00:49it has never happened to me
01:00:50I have to say that
01:00:51I had
01:00:53yes twice
01:00:54I realized
01:00:54of possible
01:00:55false sexual assaults
01:00:57complaints
01:00:57but I repeat
01:00:58in particular situations
01:00:59from adults
01:01:00that they did it
01:01:02with a motive
01:01:03specific
01:01:04so a person
01:01:05an adult woman
01:01:06which has a specific motive
01:01:08that doesn't involve anyone
01:01:10it has never happened to me
01:01:11Why
01:01:12I have more confidence
01:01:13probably
01:01:14in human nature
01:01:15of what you demonstrate
01:01:16the professor
01:01:16I believe that a mother
01:01:18never
01:01:18never ever
01:01:19and many mothers together
01:01:20even more
01:01:21would do something
01:01:23to ruin
01:01:24his own son
01:01:25driven by its own morbidities
01:01:27I don't think there is
01:01:28all this morbidity
01:01:29in those that are
01:01:31today's mothers
01:01:32in what is then
01:01:33my generation
01:01:34In short
01:01:36and so here it is
01:01:38I don't think so
01:01:40possible
01:01:41its reconstruction
01:01:42precisely for this reason
01:01:43then justice
01:01:44does not create
01:01:45the monster
01:01:45who believes
01:01:46and we want to believe
01:01:47that there are
01:01:48all the magistrates
01:01:48like her
01:01:49also because
01:01:49I have neither distrust nor distrust
01:01:50in mothers
01:01:52nor distrust
01:01:53in my category
01:01:54as the professor has
01:01:55Gullotta
01:01:55to say
01:01:56monsters are created
01:01:58thank you very much
01:02:04the story
01:02:05from Rignano
01:02:06Flaminio
01:02:06whatever it is
01:02:08the key to truth
01:02:09on monstrosities
01:02:10which underlies
01:02:11it will be the judiciary
01:02:12establish it
01:02:13had the effect
01:02:15that of bringing
01:02:16at the level of consciousness
01:02:17collective
01:02:17and as a social emergency
01:02:19what in thought
01:02:21common
01:02:21it was a problem
01:02:23circumscribed
01:02:24to remote niches
01:02:25of perversion
01:02:27a horror
01:02:28distant
01:02:29confined
01:02:31in the folds
01:02:31hidden
01:02:32of the internet
01:02:33closed
01:02:34in the codes
01:02:35depraved
01:02:36of the swingers
01:02:37of shameful images
01:02:38relegated
01:02:39in the abject
01:02:40away trips
01:02:41of tourists
01:02:42of pedophilic sex
01:02:49Rignano
01:02:50he shelled us
01:02:51the eyes
01:02:51but it made us sick
01:02:53the soul
01:02:53Rignano
01:02:54and every hand
01:02:56prosthesis
01:02:57to touch
01:02:57a child
01:02:58that from hours onwards
01:03:00he will lose strength
01:03:01out of distrust
01:03:02out of fear
01:03:02thousand
01:03:03thousand
01:03:04caresses
01:03:04innocent
01:03:05and indispensable
01:03:07accompany
01:03:07his natural
01:03:08growth path
01:03:10Rignano
01:03:11has the right
01:03:13to his truth
01:03:14Why
01:03:16be punished
01:03:16the guilty
01:03:17if guilty
01:03:18they will be recognized
01:03:20and come
01:03:21compensated
01:03:22if unfairly
01:03:23hit
01:03:23from one thing
01:03:24defamatory
01:03:25to the truth
01:03:27and to find again
01:03:28serenity
01:03:29and balance
01:03:29they have the right
01:03:31first of all
01:03:31the children
01:03:32that of this
01:03:33horrible story
01:03:34they will bring
01:03:35Unfortunately
01:03:36inevitable
01:03:37the scars
01:03:38and they have the right to it
01:03:40no less
01:03:40their
01:03:41troubled
01:03:42parents
01:03:42but we too
01:03:44we have to
01:03:45everyone knows
01:03:46with certainty
01:03:47what really
01:03:48it happened
01:03:49in Rignano
01:03:49Flaminio
01:03:50to measure
01:03:51what it should be
01:03:53the level
01:03:54of ours
01:03:54Attention
01:03:55and prevention
01:03:56and control
01:03:57but also
01:03:59to heal
01:04:00from Rignano
01:04:00and from ours
01:04:01nightmares
01:04:02Perhaps
01:04:03without history
01:04:04in Rignano
01:04:30Thank you all.
01:05:00Thank you all.
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