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00:00I think that we need a little time off from the NBA playoffs.
00:02Lyman's been getting drunk and watching basketball every night.
00:04It's an every night thing now, too.
00:05You come in hot every morning now.
00:08Because you're sitting there.
00:09How much bourbon have you been ripping?
00:11Well, I've got to stop with the bourbon.
00:13It's got to turn into vodka.
00:14But then the problem with vodka is I've built up a natural immunity to it,
00:17like Iocane powder over the years.
00:19So I can just go and go and go and go and go and go and go.
00:22And, you know, you can try to torture me.
00:26You can do whatever.
00:26The vodka just goes in, goes out.
00:29Yeah, that's a problem.
00:31Okay.
00:32I don't know where to take that after that.
00:34My God.
00:35So you've got to drink bourbon.
00:37You can't drink vodka.
00:38But the bourbon is just so bad for you if you drink a ton of it.
00:43It's just so bad.
00:43Well, how much is the ton that you're having during the basketball games?
00:46How many fingers do I have?
00:48Oh, my God.
00:49Did you teach Mason how to make you one yet?
00:51Not yet.
00:51I told you, man.
00:52I call Axel the hammer because every now and then I'm like,
00:54good God, dude, it's Sunday.
00:55What are you doing to me?
00:57Roger Goodell is going to join us.
00:58We talked to Roger Goodell yesterday.
01:01We'll play that for you at 7 o'clock.
01:02No, but Todd Munkin's coming in.
01:04I can't get you Roger Goodell in studio, but maybe I can do you one better.
01:07Todd Munkin's going to be in here.
01:08Folks, this is going to be live in studio, and he has a hot microphone.
01:11Will he have gotten a sweet haircut?
01:14He looks good anyway.
01:15I mean, hell, I didn't think he needed a haircut.
01:17You know, what the hell?
01:18So, I wanted to ask you this.
01:20Lyman's been watching every single basketball game.
01:21I think you're focused on the wrong things.
01:22You came walking in here today, and you go, boy, sure hate to be the Nuggets.
01:29Boy, man, everybody, free to the Celtics.
01:32I go, buddy, we got game six we got to finish out tonight before we go puffing out our chest.
01:35I think you're worried maybe about the wrong things.
01:37And I heard some yesterday from some of the other shows, not just one, but some of the other shows,
01:42and hearing how, well, the Cavs just can't beat themselves.
01:46They can't beat themselves.
01:47They can't beat themselves.
01:47I'm like, can we admit some of us, not you.
01:53This is why I'm surprised that you've said it.
01:55Hey, man, I'm open to admitting.
01:57I watched the Celtics this year.
01:59I'm surprised this is a 3-3 series and going to seven games.
02:03I'm pretty stunned.
02:04I got to tell you, I didn't take Philadelphia very seriously whatsoever.
02:07I haven't watched Philadelphia barely at all this year, okay?
02:12I've told you guys before, I got no reason to lie.
02:14I will turn on games in the background, just to leave them on in the background,
02:18especially like in January, late December, January, that time of year,
02:22like the Browns are kind of out of it.
02:23I'm doing draft work.
02:24Here we are.
02:25If the Cavs aren't playing on a Friday night, I'll put on Eastern Conference basketball.
02:29I just like the Eastern Conference.
02:30You know how I am.
02:31So I've had a lot of Knicks games.
02:35Told you before, if I died and came back, I could have seen myself as a Knicks fan.
02:40But, like, Detroit, eh, a little bit.
02:43And I'm just surprised.
02:44I am really surprised that I thought Boston was going to run through Philadelphia.
02:51I thought Detroit was honestly going to run through Orlando,
02:53and maybe I should have known a lot better than that.
02:56And this is all kind of, if you thought that the Cavaliers,
02:59or if we were already sitting here after a four-game sweep,
03:01kind of just twiddling our thumbs, this would be great.
03:04Guys, we're in a dogfight here.
03:05This is a 3-2 series.
03:06And to hear some of the stuff going on,
03:08well, you know, all the Cavs got to do is they just got to not beat themselves.
03:12Where do we get this from?
03:13Where do we get this from?
03:15Like, you're playing a tough team, and they're going to try to,
03:17as Draymond Green said, they're going to try to go through your chest.
03:20Like, I'm not trying to scare everybody.
03:22I'm not trying to scare fans.
03:23I think fans respect Toronto.
03:25I'm kind of talking to us on the station like,
03:27oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
03:28I'll be critical of the Cavs for not beating Toronto if they can't win tonight,
03:32and God forbid they wouldn't be able to win Sunday if there's a Game 7.
03:36Obviously, there should be some criticism.
03:38You are the better team, but I got to give Toronto their respect.
03:43Like, I did.
03:44I didn't guarantee it, but I was saying the whole time,
03:47and Owen was killing me for not guaranteeing it,
03:49even though it sounded like a guarantee.
03:51I said, there are no way they're losing on Wednesday night, and they did.
03:55Okay?
03:57They are the better team.
03:58They should be able to finish this off,
04:00especially with Brandon Ingram hurt and with Scottie Barnes banged up.
04:05But, man, you got to have some respect for this opponent here
04:07because you're looking across the East.
04:09I fully have respect.
04:09But you're sitting here telling me, oh, boy, the Celtics.
04:12Everybody afraid of the Celtics.
04:12I don't want you to be focused on the wrong thing.
04:16I don't want us to be focused on the wrong thing.
04:17Yeah, well, part of, and this is definitely my fault.
04:19I brought this on myself.
04:20Can I just say this real quick, and then I'll let you go here with this?
04:23I think this playoffs has exposed how little basketball some of us in this city
04:28have watched.
04:29Not talking about the fans, talking about the media.
04:32Okay?
04:34I openly admit the games I'll watch, the games I have watched.
04:37Hell, I document them in the book because I'm nuts.
04:40But, damn it, like there's a lot of things being said, and I'm going,
04:43that ain't right.
04:44No, that ain't right about that team.
04:46No, no, no, no, no.
04:47And I just want to make sure the basketball maven who sits up
04:51and hammers bourbon all night watching these games is the basketball maven
04:56that we make you out to be.
04:57The ball know where we make you out to be.
04:59Yeah, this is the one thing.
05:00So, I've gotten a lot wrong already about these playoffs, but I got a lot right.
05:04Here's what I got right.
05:05Is it the East?
05:06And I've said this, you know, since day one the season started,
05:08once the Tatum injury happened, that this East is wide open.
05:12And, yes, that fueled a lot of my optimism about the Cavs.
05:16Now, the Cavs in the playoffs have also given me pause
05:20because they have definitely harkened back to some of the problems
05:25we've had about the Cavs for the last four years.
05:28But then I watched the Celtics last night with a bunch of guys in their rotation
05:33who have never proven anything in the playoffs.
05:35It's a brand new team this year because they thought this was going to be a gap year
05:39once the Tatum injury happened.
05:42Detroit, a bunch of guys that have never done anything in the playoffs.
05:45The Knicks have had battle wounds, the scars.
05:51They've been there, but they've also never pierced through.
05:54They've also not been to the NBA Finals.
05:56And they have a lot of issues.
05:57But, boy, did they respond yesterday and said bye-bye to the Atlanta Hawks.
06:02And that was an impressive performance.
06:04And now the Knicks, their odds have gone up.
06:07I keep referencing the playoff odds, you know, after each night.
06:11But the Cavs are still in the thick of this.
06:13And as badly as they have played, as badly as we have talked about them
06:17and the things people have said about their physical and mental toughness,
06:22they win tonight in Toronto.
06:25And Orlando wins tonight like you have home court advantage.
06:27Or if Detroit prolongs that series, now we might get a little more rest.
06:31Like, there still are a lot of reasons to feel good,
06:34but the Cavs have to handle their business, clearly.
06:37And they're three-and-a-half-point favorites tonight on the road.
06:39So, the road team has not won a game in this series yet.
06:42They say that's when the series starts.
06:43Well, that's when the series ends, if they can win tonight.
06:47And I think with those injuries for Toronto
06:50and maybe Evan Mobley hitting those shots,
06:53those were dagger shots and they were so needed.
06:58Maybe that starts something.
07:00Because I have seen in the NBA playoffs,
07:03sometimes it just takes getting through one series
07:06or a couple of big moments for a team to rally around each other.
07:12It does happen.
07:13And as lackadaisical as we've seen this team at times
07:16and some of the hellacious turnovers
07:18and some of the effort issues,
07:20sometimes it just takes something to rattle the cage a little bit.
07:25And the Cavaliers, you don't want to look ahead,
07:27but man, seeing Boston, seeing Detroit,
07:31the Knicks having problems in their series earlier against Atlanta.
07:33You know, and this goes back, I love to make the comparisons.
07:36Can I make another comparison?
07:38You've got to finish out this series.
07:39And you know why you've got to finish out this series?
07:41Because you're seeing what's possible.
07:43I go back, 2020 playoffs, the Dirty Dan,
07:48what was Dan's name from the Chiefs?
07:50Sorenson.
07:51Dirty Dan Sorenson.
07:52And how, hey, if you were able to close that out,
07:55fourth and long, or third and long,
07:57and then it became fourth and a half a yard and they threw that ball.
07:59If you were able to close that out, who knows what's possible.
08:02If you're able to win that game,
08:03who knows what you're capable of with the Cleveland Browns.
08:06Okay, well, if you're not able to finish off this series with Toronto,
08:08I mean, you're seeing a wide open lane here.
08:10Denver's having problems.
08:11Orlando, that would be a formidable opponent.
08:13You're going to have to take either team seriously.
08:15That's right, yeah.
08:15Boston, or I said Denver.
08:17Denver does have problems because they're eliminated.
08:19Detroit has problems.
08:20Boston is having problems trying to put away Philadelphia,
08:22a team that we all left for dead three weeks ago.
08:26You have an opportunity here.
08:28And if you're not able to close out this series,
08:29say you do go to a game seven and you falter and you lose,
08:34you think it hurts now.
08:35I can't imagine what it will be because they're showing you
08:39this is an opportunity.
08:41And maybe Boston's going to get their act together.
08:43Maybe I'll end up being wrong.
08:45But this shows you an opportunity and a path to possibly not just get
08:48to the Eastern Conference Finals, get to the NBA Finals.
08:50But if you can't beat Toronto, forget about it.
08:532-1-6-4-7-4-0-92.
08:55That's what's at stake.
08:56So you got to go – and I know, I just talked about other teams.
09:00I know I got to keep the focus here.
09:01But I'm just a little bit concerned or just baffled that I'm here.
09:06Well, the Cavs just got to not beat themselves.
09:07Well, the Cavs just – is it the Cavs versus the Cavs?
09:10I would like to turn the ball over less.
09:12I would like to do that.
09:13I would like to win the possession games.
09:15All Cavs Conversations brought to you by the fine folks
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09:206.35 and 50 seconds for those scoring at home.
09:23I'd love to do all those things because I do think they help you make sure.
09:26And I do feel – I don't like to celebrate injury.
09:29I feel a lot more confident that Brandon Ingram's out, let's be honest.
09:32I feel a lot more confident that there's something tweaked with Scotty Barnes,
09:34let's be honest.
09:35Now, will he be able to go tonight, Scotty Barnes?
09:37I think he'll go.
09:37I imagine he'll tape it up and go.
09:39But he looked a little bit banged up, a little hampered in the second half.
09:42And John had set it up there.
09:45Now, John's an outsider.
09:46He's an eloper, but he's a good kid saying, well, if they lose tonight,
09:48I don't know if they're going to win a game seven.
09:50And you and me, like, whoa.
09:51That's been kind of the feeling with the Cavs this year with a lot of their fans.
09:54So, for us to just sit here and go, oh, well, you know,
09:57the Cavs can only beat themselves.
09:59Where are we getting off on that?
10:00Shows we ain't been watching a lot of Cavs basketball then
10:02if we're saying these sort of things.
10:04This ain't no thing where you're just, well, the Cavs,
10:06they only beat themselves.
10:08No, man.
10:08Like, I ain't trying to scare nobody because I think a lot of fans out there
10:11are totally in agreement going, yeah, they got to –
10:14there's some things they got to do.
10:16They got to get worked out.
10:17And I think there's a wide open lane for this team, wide open,
10:22because of what's going on in Boston, because what's going on in New York,
10:25what's going on with Detroit.
10:26There's a wide open lane for you.
10:28But you got to take care of your business tonight.
10:29And that's a good basketball team that has earned a lot of respect
10:33throughout these last couple of weeks here.
10:34And they deserve that respect over these last couple of weeks.
10:38Now, I can blame the Cavs to be a really expensive team
10:43that is playing lower than what they should.
10:45But, damn it, that's a good team out there.
10:48You got to make sure you take care of them tonight.
10:49The way that the national people are talking about the Cavs,
10:53they're down on everybody.
10:54They're down on Mobley.
10:55They're down on Allen.
10:56They're down on Harden.
10:57I want to get to Harden here in a moment.
10:59They're down on Donovan Mitchell.
11:01I mean, it's one by one by one.
11:02They're down on everybody.
11:03They're down on Kenny Atkinson.
11:06But they're up 3-2.
11:07They have a chance to win tonight and end the series.
11:11And look at all the other teams in the East.
11:14Like, do you have to give – does it all have to be negative?
11:18I realize –
11:19I'm not trying to be negative.
11:20I'm just trying to tell you the truth.
11:21I'm not being negative.
11:22I'm just saying they should win tonight.
11:24You have Brandon Ingram who's going to be out.
11:26But, damn it, you got to take care of your business.
11:27And I just think it's ridiculous that some people are saying,
11:29whoa, all the Cavs got to do is not beat themselves.
11:31Like, what?
11:31Well, it's just funny to me.
11:33Like, Atlanta, everybody was high in Atlanta.
11:35They just had one of the most lopsided elimination games in the history of the league.
11:39I think they were down, like, 50-12 at one point in that game yesterday.
11:43Yet, they were high in Atlanta.
11:44Okay.
11:45Well, the Denver Nuggets, they have Jokic.
11:48They're eliminated.
11:49Okay.
11:49So, don't we need to recalibrate things a little bit?
11:53The way we're talking about the teams that, I don't know,
11:55are still playing basketball today?
11:57Like the Cleveland Cavaliers?
11:59Can we say some good things about the team?
12:01I get it.
12:02They've done a lot of things I'm not happy with either.
12:03You know what I'm thinking is good?
12:04But they're still around.
12:05You want me to say something good?
12:06James Harden, I think, has been great for this team.
12:09I really do.
12:10He's only been here for a couple of months.
12:12I think he's the reason you're up 3-2 in this series.
12:14I agree with what the people have said.
12:16Like, at first, I know you asked me this question.
12:17I was like, well, maybe it's got to be Mitchell.
12:19Nah, you know, going back, I think it's got to be Harden.
12:21I think that when you put the poll out there, what was the poll?
12:23How many people said it was Harden?
12:25Yeah, I got it right in front of me right now.
12:26I asked at the end of the show yesterday,
12:28who's been the best Cavalier in the first round?
12:30And James Harden, a runaway winner with over 1,000 votes,
12:3677% of the votes, still two hours left on the poll.
12:40And then it's tight between Evan Mobley, who's number two,
12:43and Donovan Mitchell, number three.
12:46I think James Harden, and I know that there's some turnovers.
12:49There's some audio we're going to play here in just a moment.
12:50But I know that turnovers have been a bit of an issue.
12:54But if you've got a ball-dominant guard
12:55and a guy that you want to create offense,
12:57yeah, he's going to have some turnovers,
12:59especially when they blitz him like they've been blitzing him here
13:01over these last few games.
13:03So I'm not going to be surprised that James Harden
13:06had a couple of turnovers, had more than a few turnovers,
13:09if you really want, because I still think that he's the reason
13:11why you're up 3-2 in this series.
13:13There's a disagreement here.
13:15Nick Wilson on afternoon drive, he said he doesn't care
13:18how much James Harden scores.
13:19He thinks he's been a bit of a problem.
13:21For the last three games, he's averaging seven turnovers a game.
13:24He's only averaging, I want to say, just over six assists per game.
13:27I don't care how many points a game he scores.
13:29Even rebounds.
13:30Like, I got guys to do that.
13:31Your number one thing is running the offense.
13:33I don't think it's a coincidence that the offense really hit the skid
13:38in the two Toronto games while you're on the road,
13:41and he had, I want to say, eight turnovers the first game
13:44and seven the next game, or it might be strike that and reverse it,
13:46but he had 15 turnovers in two games.
13:48No, the turnovers are a problem.
13:49No one's denying that the turnovers aren't an issue.
13:52I would just say, I think he's outweighing the turnovers
13:55with what his play is.
13:56Like, even last night, again, when you score 23,
13:58it's not just scoring 23.
13:59It's doing so on over 50% from the field.
14:01Like, he's been highly efficient.
14:04I totally agree with Jonathan.
14:06I do care about him scoring points.
14:08I care about guys who score the basketball.
14:10That's what I care about.
14:11And I know that you had some turnovers there, and yes,
14:13they've got to clean them up as best they can.
14:14But on the other side of that, you have to also be charged
14:17with creating offense.
14:18He's creating offense for others.
14:20If they can't score the points, then he's got to find a way
14:22to score the points himself, and I think he's been doing that.
14:24I think that Donovan Mitchell, yes, has struggled.
14:27I know that he struggled in game four of this series.
14:30I understand these things.
14:31But damn it, when you look back on this series
14:33and see why they're up 3-2, I don't think they're up 3-2
14:36without James Hart.
14:37I don't think that they're up in this series
14:38with Darius Garland, flat out.
14:41I don't know how anybody could say they would be.
14:43I can't believe that anybody would say,
14:45and I hate to bring it on Darius, but I have to
14:47because it was a trade.
14:48I have to do this.
14:49Do you believe that they would be up 3-2 in this series
14:52with Darius Garland?
14:52No, not on nine toes either.
14:53I'm not trying to knock him, but I'm just trying
14:55to tell the truth here.
14:56I wish well to the young man, but this is the truth
14:58of the matter.
14:58This would not have been a series for him.
15:00Exactly.
15:01Exactly.
15:02He would have had all sorts of issues.
15:04They would have hunted him down in a way,
15:06and this is what I think Nick was missing
15:09in this conversation.
15:10And I had even some backup yesterday
15:13by one of the more prominent writers slash podcasters,
15:17Zach Lowe.
15:17Oh, here we go.
15:18I know we have a producer who's not too fond of Zach Lowe
15:21because apparently left him on red.
15:23Can we get Zach to send some boots here?
15:26Because Lyman's got to lick something.
15:28Okay?
15:29So we got to have Zach Lowe lick some boots.
15:31Go ahead.
15:32Or Zach Lowe sent some boots for Lyman to lick.
15:33There we go.
15:34Go ahead.
15:35I know we have a producer who, because Zach won't get back to him,
15:37he's not happy with him.
15:38But he's one of the authority figures when he talks about the league.
15:41He doesn't mean it's gospel, but he watches things.
15:44He's a fine tooth comb, all that stuff.
15:47Like, pouring over all the numbers.
15:49And I've got the numbers, too.
15:51Like, James Harden has not been a defensive liability in this series.
15:57In fact, I make the argument, and I've got numbers to back it up
16:00with his defensive rating.
16:01I had some very important defensive metrics,
16:03and you've got to throw rebounding.
16:04Nick says, I don't care about rebounding.
16:07You better, because rebounding is what really hurt us
16:09in those two games in Toronto.
16:11Well, that's part of the possession game.
16:13And James had eight defensive rebounds in the last game.
16:15Exactly.
16:15That's part of the defensive.
16:16Because the possession ends when you grab the basketball.
16:19Yes.
16:19And part of what Kenny Atkinson said in the postgame after game five
16:23was winning possession battles.
16:24I mean, when you had the one game where they had, what,
16:26I think game four, was it, Toronto had 23 more offensive possessions?
16:30Going, holy hell.
16:31I wasn't excited with their pace of play, to be honest with you.
16:34But when you have another team that has 23 more possessions
16:37than you offensively, you wonder why an eight-point lead
16:41evaporates and an 11-point lead evaporates there.
16:43And look, they've just been flat-out better with Harden on the court
16:46despite the turnovers.
16:47Yes.
16:48So, yes, bring up the turnovers.
16:49They're hellacious, and it is one of the bad things about James Harden.
16:54But I think he, in totality, has definitely made up for the turnovers
16:59and then some.
17:00You can't just look at assists to turnovers.
17:01I'll go one further.
17:02Which one Nick did yesterday.
17:03I'll go one further.
17:04And I know you look these things up, but I'm going to tell you right now,
17:07I watch in this series, and I've had a couple of people say it,
17:10and I think they're right.
17:11We've had a couple of callers say it as well.
17:12I think that he's made up for a little bit of a lack of defense
17:15from Donovan Mitchell.
17:17Yes.
17:17I think that he's made up for that.
17:18Yes, he's played way better defense than Donovan Mitchell in this series.
17:20He's had active hands.
17:22He has not allowed guys like Ingram and Scotty Barnes
17:25and R.J. Barrett to back him down.
17:28Other guys have.
17:29They can't really budge.
17:30Old man Harden, who looks like, what do you think he weighs right now?
17:34James Harden.
17:35We don't have to worry about that.
17:362-10.
17:36Okay, we'll go with that.
17:38The off and on numbers, the metrics.
17:41Offensively, they are 115.8 in offensive rating with him,
17:46without him 109.
17:47So there's a nine-point deficit there.
17:50Defensive rating, much better.
17:52With James Harden on the floor, 106.9.
17:55Without him, 120.
17:57So a net rating positive of 8.8 overall.
18:00So you cannot find a metric that tells me this team is better with Harden off the floor.
18:05And just, what's the eye test?
18:07Who do you trust right now more?
18:09James Harden.
18:09And that's with a guy turning the ball over the way he does.
18:12Do you trust Donovan Mitchell or do you trust James Harden?
18:15I still trust Donovan Mitchell.
18:17Just in this series.
18:18I'm just trusting James Harden more in this series.
18:20That's where I'm at right now.
18:21And the last part of this, which I think is the one thing that Nick and everybody,
18:26all the national guys who are criticizing Harden are missing.
18:29I use the term unafraid.
18:31And I think that's important.
18:33There have been times, especially after losing those two games in Toronto,
18:38where you had a lot of guys that looked afraid.
18:39You needed somebody like James Harden in game five to come out in the first quarter
18:44and be in takeover mode.
18:46Because you can't wait around forever for other guys to pick up the slack.
18:50Because you'll be eliminated.
18:51Just ask the Denver Nuggets right now.
18:53They're done.
18:54Their season's over.
18:55Cavs are still playing basketball today because of James Harden.
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