00:00But remember, today is also a day which needs to be remembered for another reason.
00:06Exactly a year ago, this day, Lashkar-e-Toi-ba terrorists from Pakistan killed 25 tourists,
00:14all Hindus, one local Kashmiri in Pehalgaam.
00:17Three Pakistani terrorists were also killed in the anti-terror operations that followed.
00:22India launched Operation Sindhu to punish Pakistan for launching those terror attacks.
00:28But ironically, a year later, the country that is seen to have supported terrorism, cross-border terror,
00:35used it as a state policy against India, is playing the role or attempting to play the role of a
00:41peacemaker
00:41between the US President Donald Trump and Washington and the regime in Iran.
00:48That's quite a turnaround.
00:50And that, in a way, suggests how geopolitics has changed in the last 12 months alone.
00:56That's what I want to now turn to.
00:59Has geopolitics changed so dramatically in one year since Pehalgaam?
01:04Is the world now ready to ignore Pakistan's terror links?
01:08Does the world suffer from a sense of global amnesia?
01:11Will Pakistan give up its role in sponsoring cross-border terror?
01:16Is it genuine about a change in stand?
01:20Those are some of the questions I want to pose.
01:22I've got two special guests.
01:23They'll join me one by one.
01:25My first guest is General VP Malik.
01:27Former Army Chief joins me at this point.
01:30General Malik, I'm trying to contrast just how the world has changed.
01:33A year ago, Pakistan clearly found itself in a situation where it was deeply embarrassed,
01:41one would have hoped, by the manner in which it had allowed its soil once again to be used
01:47for cross-border terror against India and Pehalgaam.
01:50Now it's trying to play peacemaker and in a very high-profile role between Iran and the United States.
01:56How do you see it?
01:58Has global geopolitics changed so dramatically in the last year?
02:03Good evening, Rajdeep.
02:06Yes, geopolitics is always dynamic, and we have to remember that.
02:11Situation can change from time to time.
02:14It all depends on the national interest of the players who are playing that game at that time
02:21in a particular situation.
02:24And also, I think we have to give credit to Pakistan's narrative building
02:31and the manner in which they indulge in diplomacy,
02:36going to the people who have been their friends in the past
02:43and bending down to get their interest.
02:48So, politics has changed, and today there is no doubt that Pakistan has a good image abroad,
02:57may not be fully justified.
03:00But does that, General Malik, as a military man, make you angry
03:06that here is a country which over the last three decades and more
03:10has repeatedly engaged in cross-border terror against India,
03:14has nurtured the likes of Masood Azhar, of a Hafiz Saeed,
03:18of a Daud Ibrahim on their soil, and many others,
03:21and yet the world doesn't do enough to call out Pakistan?
03:26Right.
03:30Well, I am disappointed, yes.
03:32It doesn't make me angry because I understand the dynamics
03:36that is going on in geopolitics.
03:38So, yes, I am disappointed that people are not conscious
03:42of what Pakistan has been doing all along.
03:45And it has now become their favorite nation for some time.
03:54But could we do more?
03:56Do you believe we could do more to sort of make sure
03:59that we talk of zero tolerance against terror?
04:02Pahalgam happened and was a wake-up call again.
04:05Do you believe it's possible to do more?
04:08Do you believe Operation Sindur sent out enough of a tough message
04:11to Pakistan that India will even go and target terrorist camps inside Pakistan?
04:18Do you believe Sindur had a kind of effect as a deterrence,
04:23a credible deterrence on Pakistan?
04:26Look, Operation Sindur was a much stronger response from our side than we had done earlier,
04:34whether it was surgical strike or even balakot strike.
04:38Operation Sindur was a much stronger message that was sent to Pakistan.
04:43Pakistan, and unfortunately, I believe that our narrative building was not as strong as it should be in such a
04:50situation.
04:52And Pakistan did take advantage of that.
04:56Munir made himself a field marshal and continues to rule the country today.
05:02And the other thing is that we could probably, in diplomacy,
05:08we could have been slightly more aggressive
05:13and we could have probably done better in our relationship with countries like USA and others.
05:24Make sense of General Munir for us.
05:26Here is someone self-anointed as a field marshal.
05:30You've been a general of the Indian Army,
05:32and one of the great distinctions is between the Indian Army,
05:34which has always stayed in the barracks,
05:36and the Pakistani Army, which has always sought par.
05:39Here is someone.
05:40How do you read Asim Munir?
05:41Someone today who's a state guest of President Trump in the White House
05:46is now negotiating between Tehran and Washington.
05:50Well, he's not the first one.
05:52If you recall, even Parvez Musharraf, after the Kargil war,
05:56had been fated in Washington, D.C.
06:00And he was also making the...
06:03So that is the way USA functions.
06:07And that is the way Pakistani generals,
06:09who have a lot of friends in USA, all along they have been.
06:13So they take advantage of that.
06:15And as I said, it is disappointing,
06:19but then we have to be realistic and see the situation as it develops.
06:25Do you see General Munir very much like Parvez Musharraf,
06:28or do you see General Munir as even far more dangerous,
06:31because he seems by all accounts just as powerful in Pakistan today?
06:36No, I think he is far more powerful and he is far more dangerous
06:41than even Parvez Musharraf was,
06:43because Parvez Musharraf tended to be a little more secular than Asim Munir.
06:52Asim Munir is a person who makes no bones about two-nation theory.
06:57He thinks that Pakistan is following two-nation theory,
07:01and therefore Hindus and Muslims, they are absolutely pose a part.
07:06And he has no function in saying that Hindus are our enemies.
07:11So he is far more dangerous because of the position in which he has got into,
07:17the position that he has acquired in Pakistan today,
07:19as well as the mindset that he has.
07:24I am going to leave it there, General Malik.
07:28Always good to have you on the show.
07:29As you said, General Asim Munir now poses an even bigger threat
07:33or a challenge in the way he leads Pakistan.
07:36I want to turn now to Vivek Karju,
07:38another senior diplomat who served in the region.
07:41Mr. Karju, one year after Pahlgaam,
07:44as I said, the contrast between a country
07:46which was responsible for sponsoring cross-border terror,
07:49terror now plays mediator between Tehran and Washington.
07:53Does this at some level suggest a failure of Indian diplomacy
07:57to do sufficient, to push the idea that Pakistan is a country
08:03that needs to be ostracized rather than a country that needs to be embraced?
08:08Look, it's unrealistic to think that Pakistan can be ostracized or isolated.
08:14It is a country of around 240 million people.
08:18It has nuclear weapons.
08:20And therefore, all countries wish to engage in such a state.
08:26If for nothing else, they don't want such a state to go down the tube.
08:31So, let's not look at this aspect.
08:34Yes, I think we've got to be smart in projecting Pakistan
08:41as a haven for terrorists.
08:45We have to focus on their terror modules on the Lashkar, on the Jaish.
08:53But at the same time, we have to be mindful of the fact, of two facts.
08:59One, that the moment when terror was a priority in the world has gone.
09:07I think that's past.
09:10The Western countries, the advanced countries and other countries
09:14are not facing terror in as sharp a way,
09:19or not even have they faced terror in a concerted manner for many, many years.
09:25I think that is one fact.
09:29And second, as soon as something happens between India and Pakistan,
09:34the world's main interest is to prevent an escalation.
09:39They don't want, no one wants India-Pakistani, first of all, tensions to get into a military
09:47conflict.
09:48And when a military conflict occurs, they want it to stop as soon as possible
09:52because everyone is too scared of escalation.
09:56I think in these issues, we've got to develop new narratives.
10:02And I feel that it is possible to develop these narratives and push them to the world.
10:09No, no, but just a minute.
10:11You've said something significant.
10:13You've said that you believe terror is not a priority in most global capitals at the moment.
10:19And therefore, even if India raises Pakistan's role in cross-border terrorism,
10:24it's not attracting the same attention.
10:27How then does India go one year after Pahlkam,
10:30after this terrible, heinous attack that took place there?
10:33Is this the collective amnesia of the world, particularly the Western world?
10:38And how should India then counter it?
10:41Because God forbid, another Pahlkam happens.
10:45And if the world is engaged in Ukraine, engaged in Gaza, or engaged in Iran,
10:51where does that leave us?
10:53I think it's a very difficult job for our diplomats and our narrative builders at hand.
10:59It is very difficult.
11:00But nevertheless, it's not impossible.
11:03I do believe that means can be crafted to push the idea, Rajdeep,
11:08that the first step on an escalatory ladder between two nuclear states is an act of terror.
11:15It is not the response to terror, but the act itself.
11:19And therefore, the world should be warned that if there is a terrorist attack from Pakistan,
11:27we will respond.
11:28All the policymakers in the major countries have to be informed of this in such a manner
11:36that as soon as some…
11:38Such a manner that, first of all, they keep warning Pakistan.
11:42And there are ways and means of warning Pakistan not to embark on this path,
11:45but to wind up this enterprise.
11:48It won't be easy, but that's the job at hand.
11:54Okay, those are very wise words, Mr. Vivek Karchu.
11:57I hope someone is listening to you as always.
12:00I appreciate you joining me also and putting some context to what's been happening at the moment.
12:06Thank you very much.
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