- 13 hours ago
In an exclusive interview with India Today, Tamil Nadu minister Dr P Thiaga Rajan explained why the southern states are protesting the delimitation bill.
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00:04and my first newsmaker today is a special guest joined by dr p thiagarajan senior dmk leader
00:11minister in the tamil nadu government appreciate your joining us here dr thiagarajan we've seen
00:17today your chief minister mk stalin saying that tomorrow thursday will be declared a black day
00:23that there will be protests across tamil nadu against this bill and delimitation
00:27is this a political stance motivated by the fact that there are elections next week
00:33in your state and therefore you're trying to stir an emotive tamil sentiment or is it based on an
00:40objective assessment of the bill the modi government is bringing in parliament are you stirring an
00:46anti-center tamil sentiment with this agitation that you're threatening
00:52yeah i think it is uh outrageous it is beyond any logic if it was us intended in stirring agitation
01:01who decided the timing of bringing this bill it's not that we wanted it the day before the election
01:06right somebody brings the bill they think that we will not be able to react they think that when we
01:12do react in the expected way we would react they can blame it on elections and us trying to take
01:17advantage it is outrage is ludicrous for anybody to suggest that this is a topic that has been front
01:22and center of our minds for a long time our chief minister has spoken about it multiple multiple times
01:28and said that this is a looming threat and the way it is being done on two days notice in
01:35a two-day
01:35special session with no kind of pre-announcement discussion no question of consensus no question of
01:42awareness means that everything he has been saying till now has been more than justified
01:48because this is a complete dictatorial you know my way or the highway approach two days notice two
01:54days special session right in the middle of state elections happening in five states it couldn't be
01:59more grotesquely wrong than that
02:05okay let let me break down what you've just said first uh you're saying it was the government the
02:11modi government who's brought this bill just before the election so don't blame us but we've heard mr
02:16stalin today say that if the union government refuses to respect tamil nadu's voice and steps and doesn't
02:23step back you will face the consequences the price you will pay will be heavy as a self-respecting
02:29tamil this is my stern warning what does that mean what is what is the chief minister trying to
02:34convey i think he is explicitly saying look what happened to tamil nadu to the union to india when
02:42you try to impose hindi on us once in the 60s actually once before in the 30s but that will
02:48attribute to
02:49the british and you see what resulted it was complete breakdown of the social structure and order
02:55so this is something that we are not going to take lying down you look at history for uh kind
03:01of evidence of what it means in practice and tomorrow will be a black day in tamil nadu and
03:06every house will fly a black flag and every one of us will wear a black armband or a black
03:12shirt
03:12and show how strongly and how deeply we protest this anti-constitutional anti-democratic move by the union
03:25but but let's come to specifics uh your party your chief minister saying southern states are being
03:31punished for successfully implementing family planning that your representation in parliament
03:36will go down the government says look we're going to proportionally proportionately increase
03:41all states by 50 percent so it is that's what they say that one state will lose out and other
03:48states yeah that's what they say no no but that's what they say in their voice on the street that's
03:54not what is in the bill so first of all i have to make the distinction anybody can say anything
03:59on the street it is not binding what is inside the document presented to the parliament and what gets
04:06processed and heard and hopefully never approved is the basis for decision making so we have three
04:12profound problems with this bill beyond the fact that it should never have been brought at all in fact
04:16let me take a step back as far as i am concerned as a citizen of india this is beyond
04:22the pale to the
04:23extent that this is a new india today after the introduction of this bill and it was a different
04:29india before the introduction of this bill this has been the greatest insult and the greatest slap to the
04:35notion of a union of states federal society that was envisioned by the constitutional fathers and this is
04:42completely going to change the relationship between the southern states and the union and it is going to
04:51breach the trust that had been built over 70 75 years so let us start from that point on that
04:57point i said
04:59will not be allowed to go without significant uh kind of explanation of these three four issues first issue
05:08why rushing to do this second issue why are you asking for blanket approval without any details you
05:15have not said what the basis of delimitation will be you have not said who the members of the commission
05:20will be you have not said what the terms of reference given to them will be you have said that
05:24like in
05:25previous delimitations that they cannot be challenged in a court of law so here you're asking for a blank check
05:30we know from experience what happened to the appointment of the chief election commissioner
05:35after the supreme court had given the order they went and passed a legislation that basically took
05:40out the supreme court chief justice and brought themselves into a majority so they can appoint
05:44whoever they want this dictatorial tendency is not make-believe it's not like you know hyperbole
05:50it's not like hypothetical it has been seen in practice so here we have a deeply flawed bill
05:56that doesn't commit anything at all it says that we will decide to do whatever we do whenever we do
06:03and you cannot challenge it in court how is that acceptable to any thinking person
06:11no no that let me you see the fact is as you said the home minister has on more than
06:16one occasion said
06:17they will ensure that the southern states don't lose out you obviously don't trust it because you're
06:22saying in the bill itself there is no mention of the 50 percent increase uniformly across the states
06:28so tomorrow if on the floor of the parliament that assurance was to be given that 50 percent will
06:34be increased so tamil nadu will go let's say from 40 including punucherry to 60 up will go from 80
06:40to
06:41120 maharashtra will go from 48 to 72 will that be acceptable if they agree in principle 50 percent
06:48or are you saying that's not good enough absolutely not acceptable for three reasons one
06:54why is this 50 they happen to decide 50 that itself is going to be a problem because though it
07:00increases pro rata in terms of the numbers required to get majority or the numbers required to kind of
07:06get two-thirds majority it again skews the outcome this is just mathematics it skews it further towards
07:12the north than it does to the south that's the separate issue the second issue which is even more
07:17important than the first is why should it not be in the bill what is the word of a minister
07:23who can
07:23stand and say whatever they want more compared to what is in the text of the bill when it is
07:28passed
07:28in the house that text if it is not followed can be constitutionally challenged or judicially
07:34challenged somebody says something on the house let's say they don't follow through with it it's
07:38only a privileged motion in the house that's the extent of it right so not only is it the wrong
07:43number
07:43we're not quite happy with 50 not only is it not in the bill the third question is the process
07:49itself
07:49is flawed where is the consultation you're changing the country profoundly great leaders
07:54like tiramadi indra gandhi like tiru atul bihari vajpai thought that it was better to not open this
08:01can of worms and kick it down for 25 years here we have a process that has been stalled for
08:0650 years
08:07being changed sir but you can't sir but you can't kick it down sir but sir but you can't kick
08:13it down
08:13endlessly the point is dr oh really really tell me a situation tell me a solution that you think is
08:23better than kicking the can down the road let's you and i have an intellectual debate tell me i'll tell
08:28you what i'll tell you why kicking the can down the road is much better than anything else let me
08:32tell
08:33you then you argue with me or you argue first then i'll argue back you you go first yes no
08:39you go
08:39first you go first you tell me i i i it's you who has to answer the question okay i'll
08:44go first then
08:44then let me tell i'll tell you why because you're in a country now you can't make it up as
08:50you go
08:50several log sabha constituencies which one several no i'm telling you several log sabha constituencies
08:56are 30 lakhs and more several log sabha constituencies are 25 30 lakhs they need to you need delimitation
09:02there cannot be an endless freeze i say that you can do delimitation within the existing number of
09:08seats within the state and not have a problem with doing that you can still keep the freeze on the
09:13number of states it has happened before it has happened in in tamil nadu in tamil nadu we have
09:18234 mlas some mla constituencies are only 1 lakh 20 000 some mla constituencies are 6 lakh they need
09:25delimitation but it can be done with 234 as the number it doesn't require me to change the number to
09:31do
09:31that what's your answer to that but my answer is that you still have large unmanageable constituencies
09:41many believe you need smaller constituencies more importantly the question is you're not against
09:45women's reservation you want one-third of women's reservation if you want one-third of women's
09:50reservation the government is suggesting they claim a way out by increasing the number of seats so that
09:55you effectively are able to accommodate one-third women without necessarily discriminating against
10:01those who may want to continue to contest in elections the point the government is making that
10:06the freeze was always temporary it was never meant to be permanent do you agree with that or not
10:14as if sometimes i wonder whether you argue for the sake of arguing because i know you're a thoughtful
10:19person and you're not parroting the line of the government but sometimes you talk for so long as if
10:23you're like an advocate in the court continuing to like take their position to the judge why don't
10:28you make your point briefly and stop you keep saying 16 things let me tell you let me tell you
10:32in reply
10:33i'm saying let us leave the women's reservation aside for a second women's reservation can be done in
10:38many ways it can be one-third of the existing seats it doesn't need one-third more seats to be
10:44reserved this is the kind of smoke screen obfuscation that this government specializes in
10:49my point is there is a clean and elegant solution which our chief minister bringing all the southern
10:56states together have requested a continued freeze for another 25 or 30 years why is that a clean and
11:03elegant solution because any other solution is going to be much more complicated than that
11:07and i will tell you two reasons let me please finish before you again start becoming the lawyer of the
11:14government let me tell you two reasons why i think it is not such a big deal if there is
11:19a
11:20disproportional representation by the number of citizens per mla or mp first at this point the
11:28legislatures are mere rubber stamps for the executive anyway the way that the system has evolved
11:35especially with the anti-defection bill it is not that there are five hour eight hour debates what is
11:41the point of a legislature when bills such as this can get passed on 24 hours 48 hours how does
11:47it
11:47matter how many legislators you have the only thing that matters is how many legislators you need to form
11:53the government that is the only thing that this prime minister and home minister are interested in
11:57if they were really worried about debate and saying let more people have a voice there would be hundreds
12:03of hours of debate in the loksaba about this particular problem because it is such a structurally
12:09changing the constitution in the nature of our country problem so there is not really any debate
12:14going on that tell me the last time any mp spoke for more than eight or ten minutes or any
12:18mp's
12:19discussion changed the course of a bill never not in the last 10 years 15 years second point i'm saying
12:25if this is a government that is so so so principled about equality of representation
12:31this is the government that has enacted a gst law that says one state one vote and arunachal pradesh
12:38that pays in point one percent of the annual taxes of the government of india yes the same vote as
12:44maharashtra that pays in 18 percent or tamil nadu that pays in 12 or 15 percent and that is considered
12:51acceptable why is it that that is okay that's even more grotesque disproportionate representation
12:57than the one that you are talking about you know the fact is that uh you have your chief minister
13:06saying that why are the states of the south being punished for contributing to india's progress many
13:12of them are high growth states now revan threadi the telangana chief minister suggested a hybrid formula
13:1850 percent based on population 50 percent based on gstp uh do you agree with that that you can
13:24have a formula of population and growth come together do you believe therefore you're open
13:30to the idea of consultation on finding a new model that can at least lift this freeze on seats
13:35and thereby have a more workable consensual formula
13:40let me put it two ways i think the first is that based on everything i have ever seen in
13:46the world and
13:46all the experience i have in the uncertainty that we face today the world is going through great
13:52uncertainty the world order as we knew it in terms of post world war ii till 2025 is now broken
13:59truly
14:00completely by trade tariffs by wars by breakdowns of alliances such as nato by increasing irrelevance
14:08of things like wto un therefore we are in a very volatile world by technology the advent of ai and
14:16the
14:16automation of white collar work is going to dramatically change the world in this great flux in this great
14:21volatility in my personal opinion there can be many many solutions that will improve the outcome
14:28while still maintaining the freeze for the first 30 or next 30 years as has been advocated and requested
14:33by the southern state chief ministers in their collective request if you say i am a purist i say that
14:40i still need
14:41to do delimitation fine well let me just finish please if you say i'm a purist and you still i
14:46need to do
14:47delimitation surely there must be 20 or 200 better formulas than one passed overnight with a blank check to
14:53the government of india you won't tell us the formula you won't tell us the commission members and we must
14:58agree
14:59like before that is not subject to judicial review how is any reasonable human being to take this as comfort
15:05and pass this bill
15:10so i i i are you are you clear that if this bill is sought to be bulldozed is the
15:15word that uh that the
15:17opposition is using now and being your advocate for a moment if this bill is sought to be bulldozed you
15:23still the government doesn't have a two-thirds majority in lok sabha you expect the opposition to hold
15:28together am i correct you believe this bill will be defeated in parliament yeah i i i don't i don't
15:35believe and and trust this government to do or this parliament do anything i can't believe that the the
15:40speaker and the the chairman vice chairman of the raj sabha rejected the impeachment motion without even
15:46considering it when it was signed by the right number of mps we don't live in a country which follows
15:50the rule of law or the procedure code of the parliament of the legislatures anymore let's be clear so
15:55anything can happen but if you ask me will there be hugely negative consequences if such a draconian
16:02bill is passed my chief minister has spoken i follow him
16:10are those consequences that you fear that india will get balkanized
16:14northwest divide is that fear mongering or do you believe that is a genuine fear that this bill has raised
16:20no no no no i hundred percent agree and as far as i'm concerned let's not even wait for the
16:25passage
16:26of the bill the fact that such a bill has been introduced after years of southern states expressing
16:34a fear of exactly such an action itself you have transformed the country you have today like you
16:41remember let me just give you an example i was asked to give a speech on the new world order
16:45at some
16:46big convention center conference on the first of march for uh you know the the amount of work
16:52available i was not able to write i know i always speak off the top of my head but i
16:55write up some
16:56bullet points and i go in this case i was so busy i couldn't even write the bullet points and
17:00then i
17:01went on march first and i said i'm sorry i haven't prepared anything but in a way it's good i
17:05haven't
17:05prepared anything because the new world order as i would have talked about on february 28th would have
17:10been irrelevant on march 1st because on the night of february 28th israel and us have bombed iran and
17:16we are now in a different world order on march 1st than we were on february 28th as far as
17:22i'm concerned
17:22the introduction of this bill and the manner of its introduction we are already in a different india today
17:28than we were two days ago the amount of mistrust the amount of fear the amount of kind of uh
17:35uncertainty
17:36this has shown in the people of southern india in the people of tamilnadu is so high that it is
17:43a
17:43wound to the integrity it is it is a stain on the fabric of the unity in india already right
17:51it will
17:52only get worse from here okay i'm going to leave it there those are very strong words that you come
18:00up with i just want to tell you uh dr peter agarajan i'm not the government's advocate i'm not the
18:05opposition's advocate my job is to ask questions of all i appreciate though that you've taken the
18:11questions in the right spirit and given me your strong viewpoint always good to have you on the
18:16show thank you very much thanks thanks for having me
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