- 48 minutes ago
In an exclusive interview with India Today, Professor Jeffrey Sachs, world-renowned economist and public policy analyst, accused US President Donald Trump of either lying or being delusional about Iran deal negotiations.
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00:00Which leaves me to raise the big question. Can you really trust a Donald Trump? Is there a deal or
00:06no deal? Are Trump's calls increasingly linked to market movements? And is the war any closer to an end game?
00:16I want to be joined now by a very special guest. Professor Jeffrey Sachs joins me. World-renowned economist and
00:23also best-selling author as well as public policy analyst. I appreciate you joining us there, Professor Sachs. Tell me,
00:32Professor, at a time when the world is once again turning upside down, Donald Trump's sudden announcement yesterday about a
00:40pause in the U.S. attacks on Iran power plants.
00:43Let's start with that speculation. Are Trump's announcements timed with the opening and closing of markets? Do you see that
00:52as a coincidence? Do you believe that it requires a deeper investigation into charges being made of insider trading and
01:00market manipulation? Could that at all be possible?
01:06Well, I think that his decisions are, of course, very short-term, very erratic, never truthful.
01:16And yes, they are related to the market, at least in the minimal sense that he saw coming a market
01:27disaster with the stupidity of his previous announcement. So he wanted to head that off.
01:34Given how corrupt everybody is in the Trump administration, you have to believe that there is front running of these
01:44announcements because he's surrounded by crooks. He himself is a grifter. So yes, I would think that even if it's
01:52not the main motivation, they probably cash in each time you have these wild swings.
01:59But I think from a deeper point of view, we should take a deep breath and think about the reality
02:08of a man who is the president of the United States,
02:13who is so untruthful, so impulsive, so haphazard, so lacking in any honesty, that he endangers the world through these
02:34very disturbed personality traits, not to mention American foreign policy.
02:41So what we've observed, even more interesting than the question of whether there's front running of the markets by White
02:49House insiders, is the bizarre, I would say delusional behavior of the president of the United States.
02:57You know, you are a critic of the president, and you've really spoken in strong words just now yet again.
03:04But the fact is, Professor Sachs, he is the president of the United States. He's the chief executive, but he's
03:10part of a wider administration of a U.S. system that includes the U.S. Congress,
03:14to which he's gone with asking for more funding for the war.
03:19Now, if Donald Trump is taking irrational, impulsive decisions, including announcements like threatening to target power plants in Iran, which
03:28is prima facie of war crime, where are the checks and balances?
03:31What does it say about the U.S. Congress and the system in the country if the rest of the
03:37administration is simply going to keep quiet?
03:42The U.S. system is in an extra-constitutional order.
03:50Our constitution is not functioning.
03:52Our institutions are not working.
03:55You see Congress is irrelevant to everything,
04:00though it is the branch of government that, under our constitution, is singularly responsible for the declaration of war,
04:08even when it asks itself, do we want to get involved in this, it votes no.
04:14Don't bother us about this.
04:17So this is an executive branch government without almost any checks and balances,
04:26though I do want to salute the Supreme Court for knocking down the grossly illegal grab of power by Trump
04:37regarding tariffs, something that was blatantly against the law and against the Constitution.
04:43And in that case, the Supreme Court knocked it down.
04:46But the Congress did not.
04:48The Congress did not try to assert its unique role in tariff policy,
04:55which under Article I, Section 8 of our Constitution is wholly the prerogative of the U.S. Congress.
05:01Now, within the executive branch, we're in a worse shape than any time in modern times.
05:10I've, of course, watched many presidents for many decades.
05:15Donald Trump is the most untethered from reality and from institutional control.
05:21He is surrounded by a small group of yes-men and toadies and sycophants that are all incompetent as well.
05:33Look at Mr. Hegseth, for example.
05:36This man should be nowhere near any kind of power, much less the power of the Pentagon.
05:44You know, those are very strong words yet again.
05:47But you've been saying this for a while, Professor Sachs, that this war is being driven by Benjamin Netanyahu
05:52and Trump, in a sense, is being strung along.
05:55Do you believe that even now that Donald Trump is being strung along?
06:00Because the announcement that he made yesterday about the pause
06:02was followed immediately by Israeli strikes once again on Tehran.
06:06So it almost seems as if both the countries now are operating on different levels.
06:11Trump is talking about a deal and Israel continues with its attacks.
06:16Trump talks about the Strait of Hormuz being reopened as a priority.
06:20Israel doesn't refer to that.
06:22They want to decimate the Iranian regime.
06:24How do you explain divergent paths now?
06:29Well, I haven't said that this is a war caused by Israel alone.
06:34This is a partnership.
06:35The partnership operates at three different levels.
06:40One is the general Israel-U.S. alliance.
06:47That is longstanding.
06:49The U.S. has long sought global hegemony.
06:54Israel has long sought regional hegemony.
06:57The second level is the CIA and Mossad,
07:02which typically are the main drivers of action by the two governments.
07:07And this is a strong relationship that goes back many decades.
07:13Then the third level is the individual level of Trump and Netanyahu.
07:17We happen to have two leaders who are, as I said,
07:22from a clinical psychological point of view, malignant narcissists and psychopaths,
07:29meaning that there is no care for how many people die or are hurt by their policies.
07:35And so we have three levels.
07:38I would guess at this point that this war is largely personalistic because all of the reports
07:47that we are hearing is that Netanyahu and Trump decided together that they would kill
07:54the Supreme Leader Khamenei, and they believed maybe it was Netanyahu's poisonous advice to Trump
08:05that by assassinating the Supreme Leader and other top government officials,
08:11there would be a quick regime change and a puppet regime would come to place.
08:17This is delusional.
08:20It was predictably delusional.
08:23But we have a president who was subject to delusions.
08:27But, you know, let me for a moment push back on that, Professor Sykes.
08:30You're using strong words about Trump and Netanyahu saying they're narcissists, delusional.
08:36But there will be those who will say, what about the Iranian regime?
08:40Many also see that regime as malevolent,
08:43a regime that has caused enormous hardship to its own people, brutalized its own people.
08:49And therefore, there are those who believe that this war was also necessary
08:52to see some kind of regime change, that you cannot, if not regime change,
08:58allow Iran to continue to export terror through its various militias.
09:02Do you believe to some extent that Donald Trump and Netanyahu could claim
09:06that this war, therefore, needs some kind of decimation,
09:13if not undermining, of the Iranian regime as it stands?
09:19Well, I reject this entire characterization of the Iranian government.
09:24It is, of course, the Israeli-U.S. propaganda,
09:30but it is wildly incorrect and false.
09:34The Iranian government, since at least 15 years,
09:40and very practically for a dozen years,
09:42has been saying at every moment,
09:45we want to negotiate peace
09:50and end any doubts about our nuclear intentions
09:54and end to the crushing economic sanctions
09:58that the United States has imposed on the Iranian people,
10:03sanctions that are illegal, by the way, under international law,
10:07because these are not U.N. sanctions.
10:09These are U.S. sanctions.
10:11Iran and the United States
10:12and the rest of the permanent members of the U.N. Security Council in Germany,
10:18so P5 plus one,
10:20negotiated the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action in 2015.
10:24It was endorsed unanimously by the U.N. Security Council,
10:28and Trump and Netanyahu ripped it up.
10:32Basically, Netanyahu argued that it should be ripped up.
10:38Trump went ahead and ripped it up.
10:40Since then, the United States and Israel have been assassinating Iranian leaders.
10:47They have been bombing Iranian facilities.
10:53So, this is a terror by Israel and the United States.
10:58Assassinations.
11:00Can I, though, Professor Sachs, turn to the end game?
11:04Are we finally seeing an end game?
11:08A deal, as Donald Trump calls it.
11:10Do you see Donald Trump claiming victory in the next few days?
11:15He's already, as I said, spoken in a way, in terms that suggest so.
11:19And if so, what is the kind of victory or an end game
11:23that we could possibly be seeing from a Trump perspective?
11:30I would like everybody to focus on something very basic and utterly bizarre.
11:37The President of the United States said,
11:41I have called off my threat because we have had two days of intensive,
11:50very productive negotiations that have brought us to a comprehensive agreement.
11:57And I like the tone and tenor of these negotiations.
12:02This is what the President of the United States said.
12:05Then, within moments, the Iranian government said,
12:10we have had no contact and no negotiation whatsoever.
12:15This is fake news.
12:16This is purely a lie.
12:19Which, overwhelmingly, is the case.
12:23You have a President of the United States...
12:25You're saying Trump is lying.
12:26...who either brazenly lies
12:28about issues that affect the fate of the planet
12:32or, alternatively, lives in a psychiatric delusion.
12:39We don't know which, to tell you the truth.
12:42I consulted one psychiatrist today to ask the opinion,
12:46and the opinion was that this was actually delusion.
12:51I don't know for that.
12:52But what I am saying is something very serious
12:55that I would like all grown-ups to examine.
12:59Trump made a detailed statement
13:02which was refuted immediately.
13:06Immediately.
13:07In other words, it was either a lie or a delusion.
13:11And the bombings by Israel of Iran continued,
13:15by the United States continued,
13:17and by Iran on Israel continued.
13:21So the whole thing was made up.
13:24So, to go back to your original question,
13:27was it to front-run the market?
13:29Could be.
13:30Or maybe those around Trump used it for that way.
13:35But the President of the United States
13:38either brazenly lied
13:40or is detached from reality.
13:44Then, to go on and ask,
13:46well, is there a peace agreement about to be reached?
13:49Of course not.
13:50Of course not.
13:51We're in a bizarre situation
13:54where there's no truth,
13:56no trust,
13:57and no negotiations.
13:59All we have is war.
14:01So, we should not normalize what's happening.
14:06We should understand
14:07that we have a very, very unstable
14:10United States government.
14:12You know, you're saying this is in a way,
14:16what you're telling me today
14:17is that the U.S. President is lying.
14:20You're telling me that he carries on with this war of aggression,
14:25and therefore you don't see an end game.
14:30This is a war of aggression.
14:32What of aggression?
14:33Directly, completely dangerous,
14:35unprincipled,
14:36a grave threat to India, by the way,
14:38because India absolutely is dependent
14:42on the energy from this region.
14:45And the energy supplies are not only being temporarily disrupted,
14:51they are being destroyed.
14:55So, given what you're just telling me,
14:59what do we see at all as the end game
15:01to this West Asia crisis?
15:02If there is so much of mistrust on all sides,
15:05there are no real negotiations,
15:07the U.S. President, according to you,
15:09is not telling the truth,
15:10is possibly lying to be more,
15:14to reflect what you're saying.
15:16And people here at the top
15:18are living in a make-believe world.
15:20Are you saying that we will not see an end to the war
15:23even when this five-day deadline expires?
15:26This is an illusion?
15:29Well, I have one hope,
15:31that the few grown-ups in this world
15:35that have grown-up behavior
15:38will speak to Mr. Trump.
15:40And that is Prime Minister Modi,
15:43President Putin,
15:44President Xi,
15:45President Lula.
15:47Because these are the grown-ups in the world right now.
15:50So, you're saying,
15:51you're saying importantly,
15:52you hope that the BRICS nations,
15:55you mentioned Lula,
15:56you mentioned Xi,
15:57you mentioned Putin,
15:58you mentioned Modi,
16:00you're saying BRICS has a key role
16:02to play in a negotiated settlement,
16:03not the Pakistans,
16:05the Turkeys and the Egypts,
16:06as is being widely speculated.
16:11That is exactly what I'm saying.
16:13We need the world's superpowers,
16:16that is India,
16:18that is China,
16:19that is Russia,
16:20to play the role of responsibility right now.
16:24And to explain to the United States,
16:26you cannot,
16:27and to Israel,
16:28but it's really the United States,
16:30because without the US,
16:31Israel could do nothing.
16:34That is,
16:35you cannot do this,
16:36Mr. Trump.
16:37You cannot blow up the world
16:39on your whim.
16:40No,
16:41it's been called a war of choice.
16:44But somebody rightly said,
16:46in a column
16:47that I read yesterday,
16:49this isn't a war of choice,
16:51this is a war of whim.
16:53Because we were having negotiations,
16:55the Omani mediator said,
16:59the moments before this bombing started,
17:02great progress has been made,
17:04significant concessions had been made
17:06by the Iranian side,
17:07and that was immediately followed
17:09by the launch of a war of naked aggression.
17:13It's interesting the way you're putting it.
17:15This is a war that has been fought on a whim,
17:18and therefore what you're telling me
17:20is that the grown-ups in the room
17:22need to send a firm message to Donald Trump
17:25and presumably to Benjamin Netanyahu
17:27that enough is enough,
17:29it's time to get back to a rules-based world order.
17:33Have I effectively summarized you,
17:35Professor Sachs?
17:39You have put it eloquently.
17:41Better than I.
17:43This is exactly the point.
17:45Okay, I'm going to leave it.
17:46I'm going to leave it there.
17:47As I said,
17:47very, very tough, strong words coming from you.
17:50You're saying that the U.S. president
17:51is lying about a deal with Iran at the moment.
17:56I appreciate, though,
17:57you joining me on the show, Professor Sachs.
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