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Entrevista en el programa Memoria, conducido por Samuel "Chiche" Gelblung, emitida pocos días después del evento ocurrido el 31 de julio de 1995 en San Carlos de Bariloche.
- Chiche Gelblung: Conductor y moderador. Dirigió la entrevista bajo un tono sensacionalista, confrontando los testimonios de los pilotos con la visión de los escépticos.
- Jorge Polanco: Testigo principal (Piloto de Aerolíneas Argentinas). Comandante del Boeing 727; relató el encuentro cercano y las maniobras de escolta del objeto durante el aterrizaje.
- Juan Domingo Gaitán: Testigo en vuelo (Comandante de Gendarmería). Piloto del avión Piper Navajo; validó el avistamiento desde una segunda aeronave, confirmando los movimientos inteligentes del objeto.
- Juan Faillá: Investigador ufológico de campo. Aportó datos sobre casos que involucran a pilotos.
- Antonio Las Heras: Ufólogo y Doctor en Psicología. Defendió la hipótesis de la inteligencia extraterrestre, analizando el comportamiento del fenómeno como una entidad no humana.
- Alejandro Agostinelli: Periodista y miembro del CAIRP. Representó la postura escéptica; cuestionó la interpretación de los pilotos y buscó fallas en el relato testimonial.
- Heriberto Janosch: Ingeniero y miembro del CAIRP. Analista técnico del bando escéptico; intentó encontrar explicaciones que no requirieran naves espaciales.
Dinámica del Enfrentamiento
La estructura del programa de Chiche Gelblung enfrentó dos bandos claramente definidos:
- Lado Pro-OVNI / Testigos: Polanco, Gaitán (como testigos directos de los dos aviones), Juan Faillá (ufólogo con datos de campo) y Antonio Las Heras (defensor de la hipótesis de inteligencia no humana).
- Lado Escéptico (CAIRP): Agostinelli y Janosch, quienes actuaron como el filtro racionalista, sugiriendo que el fenómeno podía ser un evento natural o técnico aún no comprendido, pero no necesariamente una nave.
- Chiche Gelblung: Conductor y moderador. Dirigió la entrevista bajo un tono sensacionalista, confrontando los testimonios de los pilotos con la visión de los escépticos.
- Jorge Polanco: Testigo principal (Piloto de Aerolíneas Argentinas). Comandante del Boeing 727; relató el encuentro cercano y las maniobras de escolta del objeto durante el aterrizaje.
- Juan Domingo Gaitán: Testigo en vuelo (Comandante de Gendarmería). Piloto del avión Piper Navajo; validó el avistamiento desde una segunda aeronave, confirmando los movimientos inteligentes del objeto.
- Juan Faillá: Investigador ufológico de campo. Aportó datos sobre casos que involucran a pilotos.
- Antonio Las Heras: Ufólogo y Doctor en Psicología. Defendió la hipótesis de la inteligencia extraterrestre, analizando el comportamiento del fenómeno como una entidad no humana.
- Alejandro Agostinelli: Periodista y miembro del CAIRP. Representó la postura escéptica; cuestionó la interpretación de los pilotos y buscó fallas en el relato testimonial.
- Heriberto Janosch: Ingeniero y miembro del CAIRP. Analista técnico del bando escéptico; intentó encontrar explicaciones que no requirieran naves espaciales.
Dinámica del Enfrentamiento
La estructura del programa de Chiche Gelblung enfrentó dos bandos claramente definidos:
- Lado Pro-OVNI / Testigos: Polanco, Gaitán (como testigos directos de los dos aviones), Juan Faillá (ufólogo con datos de campo) y Antonio Las Heras (defensor de la hipótesis de inteligencia no humana).
- Lado Escéptico (CAIRP): Agostinelli y Janosch, quienes actuaron como el filtro racionalista, sugiriendo que el fenómeno podía ser un evento natural o técnico aún no comprendido, pero no necesariamente una nave.
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TVTranscripción
00:27The Bariloche UFO
00:52The Bariloche UFO
01:00The Bariloche UFO
01:29The Bariloche UFO
01:59We descend and from the very vertical plane of the airport
02:04We begin what is known as the distancing
02:08To then begin the final approach to the airport
02:12As we moved away, I began to see, along with my colleagues in the Boeing cabin.
02:20We began to see a light in a position that we called the 11 o'clock orientation.
02:26Which would be positioned clockwise to have a position in space
02:31And I consult with the tower
02:36If I was unaware of any other aircraft that remained after that blackout
02:41Perhaps flying nearby, waiting for things to improve.
02:44They confirm to me that they don't.
02:47And then
02:49Commander Gaitán was already in the vicinity, about 40 miles away.
02:55He is questioned by the communications team and he confirms that it is indeed true
03:01They were seeing the same thing from different heights
03:03No, no, no, he hadn't reached the vertical yet, he was coming
03:07That's when we started to doubt that it was another plane.
03:12But we weren't certain.
03:15We were only seeing a light that was increasing as we approached.
03:20To begin the final phase
03:22At one point we started making lights
03:25Because that had already begun to take on a very important dimension of light and was approaching
03:30Because they can also signal with lights from the plane.
03:32Yes, yes, that's what we did
03:34And at the precise moment when we stopped making lights
03:40This object apparently changes its position
03:43And its light intensity decreases, becoming a much smaller white light
03:47And from the same pitiful distance, or as if he had withdrawn?
03:51No, apparently as if it had remained in place
03:55From the moment we started making lights, right?
03:59We began making the turn to enter the final approach to the airport
04:05And at that moment we were already having doubts.
04:11And here Gaitán was listening to the communications
04:14Because he, meanwhile, was getting closer to the airport.
04:18Above the position of our aircraft
04:20Did you express this with some alarm?
04:24Yes, we were worried because we didn't know if it was a plane or not.
04:29Whether it was an object or unidentified
04:31And also, since we had no identification, we didn't know what direction it was heading.
04:35What was the activity you were maintaining in the sector?
04:38And from different heights, do you perceive the same light effects?
04:43No, up to that point we were already about 18 miles, 20 miles
04:48That is, around 32 or 33 kilometers vertically from Bariloche
04:52And at that altitude it was impossible to identify any light other than that of the Boeing 727
04:59So you had to see the plane
05:01Yes, we saw the plane.
05:03Now the process continues with the 727 in final.
05:08And at that moment the power goes out again in Bariloche.
05:13It was as if I were practically accompanying them on the flight
05:17The thing is, when we started
05:19As I was explaining
05:23The final approach
05:24That's where we started to notice on our right
05:29That the white light had transformed into something
05:32With two green lights at the ends
05:35An orange light in the center
05:36And that it was beginning to approach
05:38Accompanying us on the descent
05:42Without ever putting at risk
05:44Because it gave the distinct feeling that they were accompanying us in some way.
05:48But they were getting closer
05:50More and more towards...
05:52How far did we reach, measured in aerial terms?
05:54And it was no more than between calculations of 60, 80 meters, 40
05:58It was right next to me, yes.
05:59Because it was the dimension that we could perceive through the airplane window
06:03It was that it was...
06:05And were you listening to it?
06:06He was listening to the conversations, that's right.
06:09Excuse me, but that's a question I'm going to ask.
06:10But did you only see a Polanco light?
06:13I saw a light and I saw a well-defined shape.
06:15Of a kind of inverted plate
06:18But I couldn't determine up at the top
06:21If that's because of the orange light it had there
06:23What did it look like?
06:25I mean, you saw this, let's say, you perceived that it could have that form
06:28I couldn't see the back part
06:30But I did see the tips clearly defined.
06:31And the green lights flashing at the tips
06:35Giving it its final shape
06:39Ending in a point like a plate
06:41So, you get the impression that it's a device?
06:44Well, I'm not going to get into any kind of discussion.
06:47I'm going to tell you what I saw
06:52Because there is a reality
06:53That's what I saw
06:55Then we can call it
06:56Object...
06:57No, no, no, what I'm asking you
06:59That is, if you got the impression that he was solid.
07:00That's what I meant
07:01Well, it had a solid shape
07:03Well, there it is.
07:05That's what I wanted to ask.
07:05I can't imagine it being hollow.
07:08That's probably it.
07:09It doesn't matter, but your visual impression
07:10This is your first experience with that
07:11Yes, of this type.
07:13And you loved him too...
07:14Yes, but that is to say
07:15Our intervention begins, let's say
07:17Following what Captain Polanco recounted
07:21He was forced to make an escape
07:24When the power went out
07:25The Bariloche aerodrome
07:26Does escape mean going back up?
07:27It is a published procedure
07:29For the purpose of relocation
07:32To restart again
07:33An instrument approximation procedure
07:36The escape that is published
07:39It's towards the Bariloche area.
07:41At an approximate distance of about 8 miles
07:44Seeking altitude
07:45And then a turn is made
07:47To return to the vertical of the airfield
07:51When he is making the escape
07:53We managed to position ourselves directly above Bariloche.
07:57At an altitude of 11,000 feet
08:00And Polanco with the 727
08:03I had already reached an altitude of 10,000 feet
08:06When we set our course towards the mountain range
08:09It's on our left.
08:11The city of Bariloche
08:13Facing Lake Nahuel Huapi
08:15Completely dark
08:17But you could see it, let's say
08:19No, it looks like a black space.
08:21A dark ship
08:22And the mountain range too, black.
08:24Because there was even a thin layer of clouds
08:27At approximately 10,000 feet
08:29When we were in that position
08:31And the airline turning approximately
08:33On Cathedral Hill
08:35An amber-colored light
08:39I roughly estimate that if I had been
08:41600 meters above the surface
08:44From the lake
08:45It moves rapidly westward
08:47But up to that point, nothing was strange.
08:50The problem was the maneuver he made next.
08:53The maneuver he performed next
08:55It was ascending at the same speed
08:56That estimated
08:58We could talk about 600, 700 kilometers per hour.
09:02It ascended vertically
09:04I don't know
09:07An aircraft or a device that can do it
09:10Now
09:11Within the physical law known to us
09:14There is no device that can
09:15Not even those famous Sea Harriers
09:16What are helicopters and airplanes?
09:18The topic is, apart from that, it complements
09:20Because it reached the cloud layer during its ascent
09:22We expected to see it at that speed
09:24To go out more or less up to the stratosphere
09:27And it remains
09:28But it stopped
09:29In approximately what would be
09:32The airline's future trajectory
09:35Well, there
09:36When the airline finishes making the turn
09:39We've already surpassed it
09:41And he passes under us and to the right
09:43That is to say, what we saw
09:46From our aircraft
09:47That's what happened to him
09:50With the problem of the blackout in Bariloche
09:52We listen to your communications
09:54In other words, they followed it completely.
09:55Of course, they followed everything that happened
09:58And then you see it.
09:59And then we see a light
10:00I cannot describe a way
10:03Because I was at an altitude of 3,300 meters.
10:06And when he rises
10:08Stop, as if approaching the Boeing of Aerolíneas
10:11It's roughly 12.5 kilometers away.
10:14Now, let's say, you are people who are used to
10:17To spot objects in the air
10:20In other words, you can clearly identify
10:22When it's an airplane
10:22I've been flying for 15 years.
10:24Yeah
10:24The main commander, Sipuzak
10:26He was the aircraft commander
10:28Who was acting as co-pilot at that time
10:30It has been in operation for over 20 years.
10:32And you, Polanco
10:33In the activity
10:3425
10:3425 years
10:36We will leave the testimony
10:38Does it change anything for you?
10:39What are your thoughts on the UFO phenomenon?
10:43A testimony, let's say, qualified like this one?
10:44Because we cannot say that this is a testimony
10:48Not rated
10:51No, on the contrary
10:52Nothing changes.
10:53And I tell him
10:54For example, in countries like the United States
10:57There are scientists like Richard Haynes
11:00It isn't true?
11:02Who worked for many years
11:04Compiling cases of this type of anomaly
11:07In other words, specifically speaking
11:08Aircraft that have had these encounters
11:11With these lights or objects
11:13For lack of a better expression
11:14We call them UFOs
11:16And he has cataloged some 300 cases of this type
11:19For lack of a better expression
11:22He calls them anomalous aerial phenomena
11:25Which would be something similar
11:27An unidentified person
11:29Does it change anything for you, Alejandro?
11:31What is your stance on these kinds of things?
11:33I would like to have one
11:34Well, let's say, an analytical power
11:36Having the UFO in front of you
11:37No, a more detailed report, right?
11:39From observation
11:39And to be able to compare a series of data
11:42That can be useful
11:43To identify the object
11:45In other words, the description could be adjusted.
11:47To an unconventional aircraft
11:50I would even respect your comment.
11:52That he had never seen anything like it
11:54There may be some new technology
11:56That corresponds to those characteristics
11:59We also don't have a very clear understanding of the object's characteristics.
12:02So, in short
12:04The characteristics were defined by Polanco, let's say
12:07Like a kind of...
12:08The topic is the following
12:09I defined it very clearly
12:10I don't know if you at the moment, for example
12:13By observing these objects
12:14They were calm
12:17Or if they experienced a special emotional climate
12:19They saw it as if it were something conventional.
12:21No, it's not normal.
12:23But the thing is,
12:25Me at all times
12:26What I did was
12:27First, attend
12:29My job
12:30What is driving?
12:32This...
12:32Piloting my plane
12:33In a very particular circumstance
12:36And at a very particular airport
12:37What is Bariloche like?
12:38But when we
12:41This object is placed upon us and shapes us.
12:43As we say in aviation, next door
12:45That is placed next to him
12:46There was no longer any doubt.
12:47That it was an object
12:48It had a shape
12:50It was delimited with two lights at the ends
12:52So...
12:54It doesn't fit me...
12:54And couldn't those two lights be from wings, for example?
12:56Why an object with a shape...
12:59I don't know
13:00Because it was showing through...
13:01It was visible...
13:02It was quite clear
13:04That ended in a way like this
13:05Under those two little lights
13:07TRUE?
13:08In other words, the shape was well identified.
13:10The only thing that could not be identified
13:11It was the back
13:12What it commonly says at the top
13:15Because there's an orange light there.
13:16Now, of course, it doesn't make sense to me.
13:16Gaitán was 10 kilometers from 727
13:21And the UFO, the supposed UFO
13:23It was 60 meters from the 727
13:25And could you see it?
13:27Discriminate between the two
13:28When you are referring to that
13:30That's not the case.
13:31When he had him 60 meters away
13:33I was 18 miles away
13:3638 miles
13:3732 kilometers
13:39When he was in final
13:40And he stands next to her
13:42I don't...
13:43What I said
13:45He couldn't even discriminate.
13:48If it was
13:48From a different light than that of airlines or not
13:51One can make a difference
13:54Between an airplane light
13:56Which is very powerful
13:57It is usually well oriented
13:59And besides, it's above the horizon level
14:01They are different
14:02It is another effect that it produces
14:04Now, I never said
14:06In that case
14:08I noticed something different from the Boeing 727
14:11Now, what I said I did see
14:14It was a light that surpassed me from below.
14:16At high speed
14:17And it rises violently towards the vertical
14:19As if to position oneself on the trajectory
14:23Of...
14:23This...
14:24The Boeing 727
14:25Chiche, there is a third important testimony here
14:27I heard you say, Polanco
14:29Someone from the airport
14:32They ignored
14:32I had also seen something
14:35And even when you got off
14:36No, I spoke with Benavente
14:38I think his name was
14:39Benavente
14:39Benavente
14:40He is also an airline pilot.
14:41That I was walking
14:42I'm talking about someone from the airport
14:44You indicated that someone from the airport
14:46Yes, there were people from operations.
14:47And the customs broker
14:49Including us
14:50Today we learned
14:52That people
14:53He's in the control tower
14:55He has been banned from making statements
14:57They are employees of the Air Force
14:59And that, well
15:02Obviously they can't say anything
15:04More than
15:07Discuss it among themselves
15:08But we
15:09Once
15:10The flight has ended
15:11I went down
15:11We landed
15:12And the commander landed
15:13We went to the airline operations room
15:16We held a briefing
15:17Among all of us who had
15:19This...
15:19Had participation
15:21AND
15:21I think we checked.
15:22What we had seen
15:23What we had seen
15:24What had happened to us
15:25Even corroborated by the
15:27The airport manager
15:29He came to the plane
15:31At first
15:32Very excited
15:34By the way
15:34I want to clarify this for Polanco and Catán
15:36That we are not subjecting him to it
15:37To a skillful interrogation
15:39Nor objecting
15:41The testimony
15:42I have an important piece of information
15:43Let's see the data
15:44The information that Llanos has
15:47He/She has applied
15:48That the blackout was caused
15:50Because of the UFO
15:50And the data we have
15:52From the research we conducted
15:53At the CAIRP Foundation
15:55The thing is
15:56There is a human error problem.
15:58During the blackout
15:59Engineer Che Goyen
16:01I just spoke with him
16:01Before coming for the program
16:02Yes, yes
16:03From the energy company
16:05Rio Negro
16:06State-owned company
16:07He tells me that at 8:15 p.m.
16:10One of the employees
16:11That was in the transformers
16:12From Bariloche
16:12In other words, they receive
16:14From Alicurá
16:14They receive high voltage
16:16Arrive towards the city of Bariloche
16:19There at 132,000 volts
16:21It drops to 33,000 volts
16:22And at 13,200 volts
16:24There are two transformers
16:26In parallel
16:27There the employee
16:29He was in charge
16:30About the transformers
16:32And when it happened
16:33The blackout
16:34The blackout
16:34Che Goyen
16:35He calls him
16:35And he tells her
16:36I made a mistake
16:38No, it's fine.
16:39But anyway
16:40They didn't say
16:41That the blackout
16:42It had happened
16:43But the media
16:44The media
16:44Ah, the media.
16:45The media
16:45Yes, yes
16:46Two phenomena
16:46Separated
16:47Also
16:47It was established
16:48A relationship
16:48Cause and effect
16:49Between the blackout
16:51And the observation
16:51But there is something
16:53That is important
16:54The blackout
16:55From the track
16:56From the airport
16:56From Bariloche
16:57It's not there
16:59Taken
16:59From energy
17:00That the city receives
17:01Yes, also
17:01Che Goyen
17:01Che Goyen too
17:02He told me about that
17:02But from a group
17:04Generator
17:05What does the airport have?
17:06Regardless of that
17:07And what is it that
17:08Apparently
17:08They cannot
17:09What is a group?
17:09Manual ethogen
17:10According to what he tells me
17:10Engineer Che Goyen
17:11They can't explain
17:12That suddenly
17:13And because of the cold
17:14What was in Bariloche
17:16That was a day
17:17You already know
17:18What are the conditions like?
17:18In Bariloche
17:19The airport was closed today.
17:20He tells me
17:21Engineer Che Goyen
17:22That possibly
17:24Because of the cold
17:24They may have had problems
17:25To start
17:26The group
17:26Manual generator
17:27And he also tells me
17:29One very important thing
17:29That the day
17:32What happened
17:33The incident
17:34At 8:15 p.m.
17:35It was recorded
17:36The maximum
17:37Density
17:37Of, let's say
17:39Electricity consumption
17:40Historical
17:41In Bariloche
17:42Electricity demand
17:44Electricity demand
17:45That's why they've jumped
17:45About the transformers
17:46But it has nothing to do with it
17:47With the generator set
17:48From the airport
17:49Of course
17:50From the airport
17:50It was working
17:51It's not that it didn't start
17:52The generating set
17:54From the airport
17:54I was replacing
17:55The lack of energy
17:55You are working
17:56With fragmented information
17:57Let me explain why
17:58What needs to be properly separated
18:00It's because of the airport
18:01It has a generator
18:02Specifically for those cases
18:03Of the first things that happened
18:04We had to do
18:06A 10-minute wait
18:08Before arriving in Bariloche
18:11Because the city
18:12The power went out.
18:13And after that
18:14When it recovers energy
18:16The airport
18:17With its own generator
18:18I am informed
18:20Once I landed
18:21They were going to
18:22They were going to do
18:23The energy shift
18:24From the city
18:25To the airport
18:26But while
18:27To avoid modifying
18:28Nothing
18:28They were going to wait
18:29Our landing
18:30With own
18:32Generator set
18:33And it begins
18:34That's the one.
18:35Start
18:35It works well.
18:36Everything until
18:37We were
18:38Near
18:39No more than 5 kilometers away
18:417
18:42With the clue
18:43In sight
18:43There to land
18:44While this object
18:45He was accompanying us
18:46That's where it happens
18:48The blackout
18:49Given our proximity
18:50Or of the object
18:51So it's not linked
18:53With the light
18:54That the city received
18:55It isn't true?
18:56Then the dequisitions
18:57Whatever anyone wants to do
18:58At anyone's expense
18:59We are not interrogating him
19:01Unfortunately
19:02We have to go
19:03On another topic
19:03We still have to do this
19:05The real reason
19:06From our call
19:08That has been altered
19:09Because of the appearance
19:10From the UFO
19:11Specifically
19:11I would like to leave
19:12At the cut
19:13At least
19:14To see
19:14The film
19:15That has summoned us
19:16So that you
19:16Even if it's
19:17Look
19:17Some images
19:18From the movie
19:19We're not going to explain it to him.
19:21What is it about?
19:22But we can say
19:23Yes, it is trout.
19:24This one is fake.
19:26Are you going to show
19:27Or are you going to stop explaining?
19:28There's the UFO
19:29No, we're going to show it there.
19:30There
19:31This is a movie
19:32Just as it came
19:33And we'll leave it there.
19:34Mr. Director
19:34Just get her out of there
19:36This
19:36But what a damn thing!
19:37No, but the week
19:38There it is
19:39It's a vivisection
19:40It's not an autopsy
19:42From a UFO
19:44Oh well
19:44Unfortunately
19:45Polanco is to blame
19:47The UFO
19:48Gaitán
19:48So
19:49That they have not been altered
19:50Today's topic
19:51We summon you
19:52For next week
19:53To discuss
19:54What truly
19:54Today he had summoned us
19:55And we're going to talk about a topic
19:57Perhaps so dark
19:59As
20:00By the
20:01He
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