"We Shouldn't Join The US!" | Majority Of Brits Are Against UK Joining Iran War, Polls Show

2 days ago

"We Shouldn't Join The US!" | Majority Of Brits Are Against UK Joining Iran War, Polls Show

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00:00I'm delighted to be joined now by a proper politician. First time I've spoken to him, Sir Malcolm Rifkin, former

00:04Foreign and Defence Secretary. You're very welcome to Talk Breakfast.

00:07Good morning.

00:08How are you?

00:09Well, it's been well worth waiting for this conversation, initial conversation between the two of us.

00:14Well, thank you. There's so much, there'll probably be no balance to the questions. I'll start by asking a man

00:20who held two of the highest cabinet roles in the land, Foreign and Defence Secretary.

00:25Sir Malcolm, if you had been in either of those roles two weeks ago, would you have sent British planes,

00:33British ships to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Americans and the Israelis, or would you have gone down the

00:40Sir Keir Starmer route?

00:41Well, there's two separate questions here, and I've got to deal with both of them in order to give you

00:45a proper answer.

00:46The first is, should we have been part of the attack on Iran, which Israel and the United States have

00:52been carrying out for some time now,

00:55First of all, the United States did not approach any other country that I'm aware of, asking them to join

01:00them.

01:01And in any event, I don't think we should have done, because if the purpose is regime change, you cannot

01:05achieve regime change, much though we'd love to see it happen, by air bombardment alone.

01:11You need to have troops on the ground, and the United States itself has completely ruled that out.

01:17Now, the other part of your question, though, is something much more relevant to the United Kingdom at this moment,

01:22and that is, as soon as we saw a crisis of this scale developing in the Middle East, and there

01:28was always a possibility that the Iranians might retaliate,

01:30Then the United Kingdom base, sovereign base on Cyprus, was obviously a potential target, not an inevitable one, but a

01:39potential target.

01:40They were attacking other innocent countries like Kuwait and Bahrain, UAE, so of course it was possible.

01:47At that moment, the first sea lord in charge of the Royal Navy and the Ministry of Defence and the

01:53Cabinet should have already agreed to send a frigate at the very least and other means of support to indicate

02:01that the Cyprus as a whole, as well as the base, would be well protected.

02:06That did not happen, and I'm as critical as anyone is of that failure.

02:11Did that not happen because of, excuse my French, governmental ideology, or was that a reaction to...?

02:18No, I don't think it would have been ideology on this particular point, because there is no ideological objection, even

02:23with this current government, to protecting sovereign British bases, such as the one in Cyprus.

02:29I don't know the answer, because I'm not privy to what may have been the discussions over the last week

02:35or so in the government and in the Cabinet on such a matter.

02:39But the end result was that until the attack actually happened, no decision, as far as we are aware, had

02:46been taken to even send a frigate to remind other forms of support.

02:51And I think that what I was going to say with ideology, Sir Malcolm, was I think it rather sums

02:56up a man who, and I've said this many times, leadership is about making decisions, not always that are popular

03:03with your own party, your own cabinet, or even the country, but you lead because you have it inside you.

03:07This man seems to govern by, I don't know, what the latest focus group or SPAD or whatever.

03:14I'm being completely serious about the parliamentary party.

03:17I'm not going to give a general answer to your question, but let me give a specific one, which I

03:20think goes to the heart of it, of the recent controversies.

03:23And that is the fact that it took four days after the Americans said, can we use the base on

03:29Chagos, before Starmer came round to saying, yes, you can.

03:35And I do acknowledge that during those four days, the situation did develop in a way that gave him an

03:41excuse to change his mind.

03:43But he should never have had to change his mind in the first place, because what was holding him back

03:49was clearly advice he had got from the attorney general as to whether it would be against international law to

03:59allow the Americans to do what they wish to do.

04:02Now, there's a lot of confusion about the term international law.

04:05When you hear the word law being used, you think of our own legal system, our own law, which means

04:11that if you break the law, you can be taken to court and the law can be enforced.

04:15International law is not law in that sense.

04:17It's basically rules that have been established over the last 50, 60 years for very good reasons, to try and

04:24discourage countries from behaving unfairly, improperly in times of crisis, to prevent wars, in other words.

04:30But occasionally, you have to ignore what so-called international law may or may not say, because your own national

04:38interests are very, very much at stake.

04:40And all countries have done that. We've done that in the past. And it's a sensible thing to do.

04:45On this occasion, Starmer declined to use that approach.

04:49And there's a famous remark by Edmund Burke, I don't object to being governed by law, but I do sometimes

04:55object to being governed by lawyers.

04:57And I think this is what happened.

04:59This was my point. I was trying to get out earlier that to me and to many listeners and viewers,

05:06Sir Malcolm, it's a movable feast, an excuse that's given when he just puts that lawyer's hat on with Herma.

05:15And you absolutely are right. There are all sorts of situations where all sorts of countries have gone, it's in

05:21our national interest to avoid or ignore or put to one side whatever that piece of legislation says.

05:28Do you think the international, just help me out here, you'd know this.

05:31Do you think that so much of this international law stuff that's spouted, do you think it's relevant to today?

05:36Do you think that you said it was set up to do the right thing, but the world's changed, hasn't

05:41it?

05:41Well, look, you've got to look at the short answer is yes, I do think whether it should be called

05:45international law or international rules is another matter, but it's hugely important.

05:50These were established after the Second World War to try and make sure there was not going to be a

05:56Third World War or other local wars of a totally unnecessary kind.

06:00So it was basically a standard system of rules whereby the big countries, not just the small ones, all agreed

06:07they would try to conform to these international rules and not use their raw power, just like Putin has done

06:15in Ukraine.

06:16When Putin invaded Ukraine, he ignored all the international rules or international law.

06:21Now, I'm afraid, and I hate to have to say this, in some respects, a similar criticism could have been

06:26made of the decision that Trump took to declare a war on Iran, not because America was being attacked or

06:34ever likely to be attacked by Iran, but because it suited his political agenda.

06:39So that is where that inevitably creates considerable instability in the world as a whole, which can lead to other

06:46conflicts.

06:46So you try to avoid that. Sometimes you can't avoid it because, as I said earlier, there is a real

06:51national interest immediately at stake.

06:54And that's why you have to make that judgment if you have a statesman rather than merely a politician in

06:59charge.

07:00Yeah, but we're talking to a proper politician, former Foreign Defence Secretary Sir Malcolm Rifkin.

07:04Blatchery will get you somewhere.

07:05No, no, but it's true, man. It's true. You just have to listen to you.

07:08Right. Some questions, specific answers.

07:11Do you think the special relationship has been damaged irreparably, or does that maintain itself because the two men ultimately

07:19will fall out of power and they don't get on?

07:21Well, it was damaged when Trump made these very disagreeable remarks.

07:26But you said irreparably. No.

07:29It's happened so often before.

07:31Harold Wilson refused to send British troops to Vietnam, rightly or wrongly.

07:35Most people think rightly.

07:36The Americans were furious. They did not ultimately damage the special relationship.

07:42Margaret Thatcher, under whom I served, had a flaming row with Ronald Reagan when American troops invaded a small island

07:50in the Caribbean called Grenada,

07:52which was not only a Commonwealth country, but happened, although it was independence, still to have the Queen as its

07:58head of state.

07:59And the Americans didn't even think to consult the British government before they did that.

08:03Now, these were furious occasions. Reagan apologised. He knew he'd got it wrong.

08:08He'd mucked it up. He did apologise. He and Thatcher got on very well.

08:12Now, the fact that a conversation took place last night, you described at the beginning of this piece as a

08:17humble event,

08:19implying that Starmer had humbled himself. Not at all.

08:22Well, I'm sorry, the Daily Mail is not the font of all wisdom.

08:27No, it's true.

08:27No, they're trying to sell newspapers. And I know your programme is much more bound by integrity on these matters.

08:33Good man, Sir Malcolm. Let's get that on a jingle. Fantastic, good man.

08:37Just let me make the point. The point that the phone call was what two sensible people do when they've

08:46had a disagreement and they try to make up...

08:48I'd be much more shocked if there hadn't been such a phone call.

08:52And there is an additional factor here. The reason why American relations with Britain are going to be pretty healthy

08:58over the immediate future

08:59is, of course, because our King is making a state visit to the United States.

09:03And there is nothing that Trump would be more upset about if his own behaviour led to the cancellation of...

09:10Several... But I can say this with respect. I mean, and I love your opinion. You're an ex-politician now.

09:15With or without respect, I don't mind.

09:16Well, so, think that Labour MPs undoubtedly are demanding the Foreign Office postpones the King's visit, those who think the

09:23attacks are wrong.

09:24And bearing in mind we have a Prime Minister who, it will be fair to say, governs by trying to

09:28please all the people all the time

09:30and seemingly, to a lot of us, seems to alienate most of the people most of the time.

09:35Do you think that... I don't know how to put this, but Keir Starmer as a person is very loyally.

09:43We had all the debacle of the last few years. I've described it as, I don't get the feeling as

09:49a voter that he's political, that he has antennae, that he has it in his DNA to make a decision.

09:54It's all focus group based and what that person tells him. I just don't think he's Prime Ministerial, Sir Malcolm.

10:00Well, I agree with a considerable amount of what you're saying. I think on domestic political issues, that is absolutely

10:06true, that he's shown lousy political judgment, hence the resulting 14 changes of mind that have had to be taken,

10:14take place.

10:14So his political judgment has been very, very poor, because, of course, he was not a political animal.

10:19He was director of public prosecutions until he joined the House of Commons already in sort of late middle age.

10:25So that's part of his personality.

10:28Whether he's the right person to lead the Labour Party, that's for the Labour Party to decide, and I'm not

10:32going to invade on that sacred territory.

10:35But what I would say is that until a few weeks ago, and I'm no friend of Starmer, but I'm

10:41trying to be objective here, Starmer's foreign policy was not that bad.

10:45He had developed a good working relationship with Trump. Not easy, given how different they were in personality and background.

10:52And he'd also worked very closely and successfully with the French president, the chancellor of Germany, on Ukraine policy, where

10:59Britain was continuing to carry out a very, very important role.

11:03It all then went very pear-shaped, first of all, with the controversy over the Chagos Islands, which is turning

11:10out to be a very unwise decision.

11:13The quicker they dropped that whole proposal, the better.

11:16And then the remarks in the last few days, when Trump got very, very angry.

11:20So that is a spat, but we've been through spats under successive prime ministers, including our greatest prime minister, Churchill,

11:27who had many such rows with Roosevelt as to how to conduct the Second World War.

11:32Are you saying that Churchill was greater than Thatcher, Sir Malcolm? Outrageous.

11:36Well, if I have to make a comparison, I would say that Churchill was greater than Thatcher, and Thatcher was

11:40greater than all others that have come either before or since.

11:43I would agree. I wrote this down before my producer wrote down his question.

11:49And objectively, you'll be able to answer this.

11:51One of the things that I have found has risen its ugly head and it should have done over this

11:56crisis is that successive governments, including Tory governments,

12:00and I'll be given all the stuff about Cold War and whatever, I think it's an utter disgrace that the

12:06defence of this realm has been hammered from the moment of austerity and all the way through.

12:11And we've fallen, it seems, to a point where I don't know whether we're not as secure as we once

12:16were.

12:16But when you hear stories of ships not being able to leave ports and aircraft carriers not up to the

12:21job and soldiers low in numbers on the ground,

12:25it seems very un-British, Sir Malcolm, doesn't it?

12:29Yeah, you're right. But let me just try and get this into focus, because you're absolutely right.

12:35And most of this is caused by inadequate resources. And yet there is extraordinary paradox.

12:40The United Kingdom at the moment has the fifth largest defence budget in the world.

12:46There's 180 countries in the world. Only the United States, China, Russia, and we're very close to France,

12:55we're slightly ahead of France, have a comparable defence budget.

13:00So why is it that we have all these problems?

13:02And people then go behind that to find out the reason.

13:05And there's lots of reasons. Some of it is incompetence, some of it is waste.

13:09But I doubt if the Pentagon have a huge amount of waste as well.

13:13But the reasons that are relevant to the United Kingdom is, first of all,

13:17that the Treasury insists on including the budget for the Trident nuclear submarines

13:25carrying nuclear weapons into the defence budget.

13:27Now, that is somewhere between 15% and 20% of the budget, which cannot be used on a day

13:32-to-day basis

13:33for conventional conflicts, for frigates, for all sorts of things that you would normally spend the defence budget on.

13:39And that's a huge whack of the budget.

13:42The second is something which is even more important, but not often mentioned.

13:46The United Kingdom has always been determined in the way we use our armed forces,

13:51that we want to have the best ships, the best aircraft, the best military equipment that is available in the

13:58world

13:59to ensure that we win wars if we have to fight them.

14:02And that means we use incredibly expensive defence equipment.

14:08Most countries can't afford that and don't even try to do that.

14:11They go for bulk, more troops, more ships, without relevance to the quality of them.

14:17Now, if you're wanting to have first-of-class a frigate or an aircraft fighter,

14:23then the technology is such they're hugely expensive.

14:27And when you make that order, it takes several years to build them.

14:31And halfway through the building, the technology is improved, you're informed.

14:35And if you want to maintain state-of-the-art, you're going to have to pay another $2 or $3

14:39billion.

14:39Now, just imagine how that adds up.

14:42The United States can do that quite easily because it's got the wealth to do it.

14:46Britain, France and other countries can't.

14:48And therefore, we have to now start asking ourselves, are we trying too hard?

14:53Maybe we should actually concentrate on having a larger army,

14:58on having more frigates and destroyers, even if some of them are not the best in the world.

15:04Might I respectfully jump in and say that many people that I speak to

15:07would prefer a much smaller welfare budget and a much more secure defence system?

15:11Well, that's a separate question.

15:12That's as may be.

15:13Many people would, and that's a very painful decision for all governments to have to take.

15:18What I'm saying is if that's not available or if it doesn't resolve the problem,

15:21we have to take hard decisions within the use of the defence budget.

15:26Do we spend on getting the best, which has always been the criteria?

15:29And I don't object to it in principle,

15:31but if it means we have far fewer frigates and destroyers,

15:34if our army is only 75,000, when it should be at least 100,000, and so forth,

15:40then maybe we're getting our priorities slightly mixed up.

15:43I had a great...

15:44My final question for you, because I asked it of Lord Richard Danner,

15:47and the look on his face was something else, Sir Malcolm.

15:50Army chiefs, as the world careers towards disaster,

15:53have launched a review, we discover over the weekend,

15:56and watch his face, into whether male soldiers can wear make-up.

15:59The gender-free changes which have been put forward by a body within the British Army

16:04could see men wearing make-up with hair extensions, painted nails and earrings.

16:09Now, for many of us, aged 60, like me, who were brought up with Thatcher and normality,

16:14this just smacks of even more madness by the minute.

16:17I'd love your responses.

16:19Well, if you were the Defence Secretary and that landed on your desk,

16:21what would you have said, Sir?

16:22Well, I agree there should be a review.

16:24It should last 30 minutes, and the answer should be, forget it.

16:29Final question.

16:30We've got to get you back on.

16:31We love having you on.

16:32Which job did you prefer, the Foreign Office or the Defence Secretary's role?

16:35Genuine question.

16:36Well, I love them both, because they were the two most fantastic departments.

16:39But when I entered the political world a long time ago,

16:42my great aspiration, which I never thought I would realise,

16:45was to be Foreign Secretary.

16:46If I'd been asked, which is the job you'd most like to do,

16:49it wouldn't even have been Prime Minister,

16:50it would have been Foreign Secretary.

16:51So that was...

16:52Do you miss it, or do you look at it now and think,

16:55God, I'm glad I'm out of it?

16:57Both.

17:00Great to have you on.

17:01Sir Malcolm Rifton, thank you so much indeed.

17:03Former Foreign and Defence Secretary,

17:05exclusively to talk breakfast.

17:079.23.

17:23Thank you for your work.

17:25You

"We Shouldn't Join The US!" | Majority Of Brits Are Against UK Joining Iran War, Polls Show

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