00:00Morning Ian. Nice to see you. Middle East is your brief of course, this is your area, so
00:04back in July 2024 when you were given that post, did you think at that point, well it might be
00:10a
00:10little quiet over there for a couple of years, and then this, so you couldn't have had a busier
00:15couple of weeks if you'd tried? Of course it wasn't that quiet in July 2024. I was going to say
00:20yes,
00:21I mean we're talking about the Middle East of course. It's obviously a pleasure to serve but
00:25I was, it was a surprise to end up a minister. What is, I mean let's just start off with
00:30this,
00:31I'm sure you hate the T word being mentioned, as in Trump, but I mean what has gone on here?
00:36We've
00:36now got Trump saying, you know, we don't even want your help, you know, you joined a war that's already
00:40been won. Now we can argue the intellectual case on his point there, I don't think it has been won,
00:47but the wider point that he was making of course is that, you know, where were the UK on this?
00:52Tony Blair was always there, all the others were always there, Harold Wilson maybe not, but
00:57what's happened? Where has it all gone wrong? So I think we've just got to be clear, Ian,
01:02there were two decisions that faced the Prime Minister over the course of last weekend.
01:06One was, will the UK get involved in the initial strikes against Iran alongside the United States
01:12and Israel? And the Prime Minister rightly decided that we would not support those strikes.
01:18The second decision was, right, in the face of Iran attacking the whole region completely recklessly,
01:25and with hundreds of thousands of British nationals in that area, should we take the
01:31specific and limited steps required in order to ensure that those Iranian ballistic missile
01:36launchers were destroyed as quickly as possible? And again, the Prime Minister, that's a separate
01:40decision, that's about making sure that those missiles can't fly against our friends,
01:44our partners, our people. And he took the right decision to say, yes, we will.
01:48But what, on the first day, it seems, and this is as far as I can tell, and I'm sure
01:53you can
01:54let me in on the finer detail here, a phone call went in from the White House, Prime Minister,
02:00can you help us? Diego Garcia, we need some, you know, and others. We need air bases. We just need
02:05that level of assistance. We're not asking you to fly RAF jets over Tehran and start bombing or put
02:10soldiers in the hills or anything like that. We just need the use, as we've always had that
02:14agreement. Is that OK? Starmer, it appears, might have said yes, but when put to Cabinet,
02:20Ed Miliband lost his mind, started crawling up the walls saying, no, this cannot happen. There's
02:25going to be a rebellion or something of that nature. And Keir Starmer changed his mind.
02:29Do you recognise that description of what happened?
02:32So I think, Ian, you're referring to commentary around what happened in the National Security
02:37Council meeting. I was in that meeting and there was absolutely no way that I would comment
02:42on the substance of those meetings. That's the most important thought.
02:45You can tell us.
02:47While I have every confidence in the talk TV viewership, I'm sure that your viewers will
02:53understand that for the most sensitive, secret discussions of national security at the very
02:58highest level, it's not right for ministers to talk.
03:00But there is. No, I agree. And I wouldn't expect you to sort of whip out the agenda right now.
03:04That would be curious. But there is always a sort of a public summary, if you like, of
03:11what the next steps would be. And it appears that there was an argument and there was a
03:18discussion. And I know that a lot of this stuff is set off the record. And Keir Starmer
03:24may well have initially been ready to assist America and now isn't. Because that's the point
03:29from listening to Donald Trump last night and his Truth Social post. And I know he says
03:34a lot of stuff on there and it is Donald Trump. He's got his own way of speaking, etc. But
03:38it appears that that's the bit that he can't get over. He's not to... He's saying, look,
03:42you can send your aircraft carriers now, you can send your jets or whatever. You're too
03:47late, mate. That's what he's saying, isn't it? We've lost the trust of America. Our relationship
03:52is blown. Well, I think... So I've obviously been in the crisis centre every day since this
03:58crisis started. And there's obviously two quite distinct things happening. One is what
04:03is happening in Iran, that initial US-Israeli decision and everything that's flowed from
04:09it. And then there's a separate thing, which is what's happening in the region. And what's
04:12happening in the region is you are seeing Israeli drones, Israeli... Sorry, Iranian drones,
04:17Iranian missiles flying all over the place. People are genuine. I've got... I mean, I've
04:22got to tell your viewers how shocked people are by what Iran is doing, because they aren't
04:26just targeting Israel. They're not even just targeting Israel and bits of the Gulf. They're
04:32targeting Azerbaijan. Dubai. Dubai. There have been missiles. Cyprus. What Iran is doing
04:38is truly, truly reckless. So we could, as you say, we could have a debate about those initial
04:44strikes. But something else has happened subsequent to those initial strikes. Something really
04:49reckless that threatens not just our people, but some of our closest, longest partners and
04:54a whole set of British nationals in those countries. And that's why we took the decisions
04:58that we did in relation to those developments.
05:00Why do you think the most successful leader that the Labour Party has ever had, Tony Blair,
05:04has now waded into this, it seems? When America needs you, you'd better show up, he said.
05:09Now, this, I understand, was from the classic secretly recorded moment in a meeting. His
05:15people have said this was never meant to be a public statement in any form, but it's
05:20out there now. And that was always Blair's position. A documentary that was on recently,
05:26you may or may not have seen it, that looked at that time, didn't really learn that many
05:30new facts, but there were one or two little morsels in there. He said it there as well, you
05:34know, where do we want to be? With America or not with America? It was unthinkable to Blair
05:38that this would not be unequivocal, every step of the way.
05:42Well, look, I think there are clearly a whole range of views in British politics. There's
05:46some people who think we should always be with America under every possible circumstance.
05:52And there's some people who think we should never be with America under any circumstance.
05:56I think the Prime Minister was right. With those two decisions that I describe, I think
06:00he was right that he took them not on the basis of the views of our allies, however important
06:05they are, but a view on what's in Britain's national interests. And I think that's the
06:08right approach to decisions of this significance.
06:10I would say in defence of Keir Starmer, though, I mean, the UK isn't the only country that
06:16has question marks. I mean, on that first, I think it was a Saturday when the United Nations
06:21gathered, I think it was the French that were first out of the traps with a very prolonged
06:26vocal attack on what was happening here. They seem to have somehow, I don't know how Macron
06:31sort of swerved all the mood music on that time. It all seems to be going Starmer's way.
06:34And Macron's got a free pass on this. The Spanish made their position very clear. I don't know
06:39whether you've spoken to your Spanish counterparts as to why they've chosen that position. Is
06:43there any news on what our other EU allies are thinking at the moment and where they are
06:49on this?
06:49I mean, I'd say, Ian, that there's always probably a lot more interest and emotion associated to
06:57the US-UK relationship. We have just a much, much closer relationship than any other European
07:03power with America. We have a truly integrated security and defence system. I mean, we've at this
07:10moment got American planes flying from British bases. The defensive operations that we're flying
07:15in the region, we do so in close coordination with our American allies. We obviously, in a way
07:21that almost no other countries in the world have been shoulder to shoulder in such a range of
07:25conflicts. Of course, we don't always agree. You mentioned a few times where we have and
07:29a few times where we haven't. But I appreciate that there is emotion associated with any time
07:35when the US and UK don't take the same decision. I've worked for myself. I was a diplomat for
07:39a long time. We served in places like Afghanistan. I did so alongside many excellent American counterparts
07:45and there's a real depth of personal contact between our two countries.
07:49Where do you think, Minister, this is going in the next... I mean, Trump, it was always said,
07:54Trump is very much a get-in-get-out kind of man. He would cite Venezuela as an example of
08:02that,
08:02and it's not an equivalence, but I think you take the point. This looks like it's going to go
08:08longer than perhaps even America intended. We spoke with John Bolton on Friday, of course,
08:14Trump's former national security adviser until they had an almighty route. He seemed to think
08:19this is long-haul territory. Do you share that? Well, there is a real risk that we could see this
08:25conflict taking on a wider and wider significance. I know your viewers will be very conscious of
08:31the restrictions around the Straits of Hormuz, which is an absolutely vital maritime passageway.
08:37I'm sure people will have seen the developments in Lebanon, which are concerning as well. There is a
08:43risk in any conflict, and particularly in this one, that it grows and grows. And that's not what the
08:48UK wants to see. We want to see regional stability. We really do care about this part of the world,
08:53about the Middle East, the Eastern Mediterranean. We'll do everything we can to bring back regional
08:57stability. But despite what Mr Trump said, and he does say some curious things on his own
09:01social media platform, etc., do you envisage a ramping up of our inclusion? And could that get to
09:10the point where we send more of the RAF to that region, where we are looking at the army,
09:15we are looking ultimately at boots on the ground? I mean, contingency plans are always in place for
09:20possibilities. I'm not expecting you to comment on the specifics. But can you imagine this escalating
09:26to a point where those conversations become very real?
09:29Look, we've set out what we will do. We've set it out very clearly in relation to those two
09:34decisions. I can't imagine moving in the direction that you describe. But of course,
09:40conflicts are very uncertain things. And we are taking the necessary defensive actions to protect
09:46our people and our friends and our interests. And if we needed to do more, we've talked about the
09:51movement of the Type 45 destroyer to the Eastern Mediterranean, we need to do more capability-wise
09:56than of course we will.
09:57On a final point, a slightly lighter note, although in some respects, maybe not that lighter. I know you're
10:02not my MP, but could you take the trouble, please, as a foreign office minister, to write to the petrol
10:08stations in my area and say, stop putting up your prices, you're still using the same petrol
10:12that you owned three weeks ago?
10:15I, well, as I...
10:16It'd be great. I mean, if it came from a foreign office minister, they might go, wow,
10:19the boys and girls of BP in Shell might be going, wow, it's come from Hamish.
10:23Ian, I would, I would love to, but unfortunately I'm not your MP and I deal with these questions
10:28in and around Lincoln on a regular basis. So I would like to...
10:31You're telling me to ask Laura Trott, aren't you?
10:33You ask Laura Trott and I'll look after Lincoln.
10:35Fantastic. Minister, good to see you, sir. Thank you.
10:38Good to see you.
10:39Good to see you.
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