00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:37I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Kathleen Chalopoulos,
00:47former member of the Church of God of Prophecy.
00:51Kathleen, it's very good to have you on and to tell your story about the Church of God
00:55and prophecy.
00:56I am just vaguely familiar with this from a distance.
01:02I've been studying how things evolved into what they have become today, and there's this
01:09weird intersection with the Branham cult religion and the Church of God and apparently the spinning
01:15off of the Church of God and prophecy.
01:17I think that's actually how we connected through the internet, but you had more to tell, and
01:23I'm very excited to hear your story.
01:25So maybe if you could just tell everybody a little bit about yourself.
01:28Well, I live in Florida, and I'm a retired nurse, and I, maybe four months ago, I recently
01:41came out of the Pentecostal movement, but I was not a slash charismatic.
01:46I was not attending the Church of God of Prophecy for that entire time, because after eight years
01:56in the Church of God of Prophecy, I decided I didn't want to go back to that, but I did
02:04not understand that maybe there were further issues with the Pentecostal slash charismatic
02:10movement.
02:10So I recently have come out of that, and I'm in a, I call it a period of detox.
02:17I can imagine that that's quite an adventure coming out of it and experiencing something
02:22else.
02:23I'll never forget whenever we left the Branham movement, which was very similar to the Pentecostal
02:29movement.
02:30I know it is different in some ways, but it was, for us, it felt like shell shock going
02:35into a new church and meeting new people and finding the way that they behaved and act
02:40in church was, for me, it took a lot of work to get used to it.
02:45I would say my first obstacle was how quiet it was, and not the charismatic rock band music
02:57or very lively music, and just very quiet.
03:02It was very hard to get used to.
03:04Yeah, for me, it was the opposite experience, because in my grandfather's church, my grandfather
03:09apparently had this distaste for music, and he, even clapping, if you started clapping,
03:16it was like you had committed the great offense, and he would get up and tell the song leader
03:20that person claps, so let's slow this song way down where they don't clap.
03:25And then I went to a new church, and they had the whole band in the back.
03:30And for me, it was shell shock in a different way, but I have seen the Pentecostal services
03:35and watched the bands and the runners.
03:39Did you have any runners in your church?
03:41Yes, and I will have to sadly admit I may have participated in that.
03:47That was probably one of the first things that attracted me to the Pentecostal movement,
03:56which I knew nothing about when I became part of it, was the worship.
04:03In my naive mind at that time, it was, wow, these people love God like I do
04:10and have a relationship with Christ like I do, and they're showing it externally,
04:18the happiness and the joy they have now that they've found Christ.
04:22So, but as I said, I had no knowledge of the Pentecostal movement at the time,
04:31and probably not, I fully really didn't understand it up until maybe 10, 15 years ago,
04:39and I still did not think it was, in my personal opinion, wrong teaching in a lot of areas.
04:48I'm interested to get into that a little bit and talk through some of the wrong teachings,
04:52but the running just fascinates me.
04:54We did not have that either, and I have good friends who have escaped other similar movements,
05:00and one of my friends was also a runner.
05:03See, I was not, and towards the end of my time in the Branham cult,
05:07I was a little bit larger than I am now.
05:09But had I been a runner like you, I would be just as skinny.
05:13Okay.
05:15I'm a cyclist.
05:16I'm no longer a runner.
05:18Now I'm a cyclist.
05:19Oh, okay.
05:19Not as in motorcycle, but as in bicycle.
05:22And to anybody who's listening who is not familiar with what this is,
05:25in some Pentecostal groups, whenever the Spirit hits your feet,
05:30you get up and you run circles around the congregation,
05:32and you can find videos of this.
05:35And it's, you know, I understand if you're in it,
05:38it's probably offensive for me to be laughing like this,
05:40because you associate that with the Holy Spirit.
05:42But to somebody who wasn't in it, you have to understand that this is just a little bit odd.
05:47So, I became a follower of Christ or born again,
05:55whatever term one feels comfortable using,
05:59when I was in my early 30s.
06:02And my husband and my two children were living in the United States.
06:06He's of Greek descent, and we felt it would be better quality of living for our children
06:12and us to move to the country of Greece.
06:17So, we did move there a little bit outside of Athens.
06:22Initially, the American bases were there.
06:24So, there was a variety of English-speaking churches, main line.
06:29I had been going to a Baptist church when I lived in the United States.
06:35And so, I did go to a mainline Baptist church in Greece.
06:40It was English-speaking.
06:42And it was basically all Americans, mainly 99% from the bases.
06:50For exact reasons I do not know,
06:53the Greeks asked the American bases to pull out, mainly.
07:01And so, all those churches left in the American community.
07:06And the church that I was attending at the time
07:09was then taken over by a Greek-American missionary
07:15and his American wife.
07:19And being a, I think they call them empaths,
07:27empathetic people,
07:28who are very vulnerable to narcissistic behavior.
07:33I was taken aback by the over-friendliness,
07:38especially of the pastor's wife,
07:42and felt like I was her best friend immediately.
07:46So, I felt very comfortable that they had taken over.
07:49And I knew they did not say they were a Pentecostal movement.
07:55I believe they, well, I would say they say the Church of God,
08:00which I was familiar with,
08:02because my mother came from the Church of God,
08:05but not out of Tennessee, Cleveland,
08:07but out of Anderson, Indiana,
08:09which I think there's some differences there.
08:12So, the Church was probably 95% women
08:21who were in a similar situation.
08:25They were foreign women,
08:26foreign to not Greek,
08:29and married to Greek gentlemen.
08:31We were all raising children,
08:32so we had a lot of similarities,
08:35and so there was a lot of commonalities and friendship,
08:39and we felt like family,
08:42because most of us didn't have family,
08:45except maybe our Greek in-laws.
08:48So, at the beginning of the Church,
08:52it was not anything hyper-Pentecostal or charismatic,
08:57although the worship was,
09:02but everybody seemed to really enjoy that.
09:05You mentioned that you weren't aware that it was Church of God,
09:08and that's one of the things that,
09:09I don't know if it's purposefully this way,
09:11but it's somewhat insidious.
09:13Whenever some of these groups move into an area,
09:16they really don't advertise what they are.
09:18You have to get in,
09:19and they want to get their hook into you
09:21before you really see what's going on.
09:24Again, it's probably not on purpose,
09:29but the design of it seems a little bit,
09:31for me, it's just a little bit scary.
09:33Well, this was before access to the Internet,
09:40and there were not, that I'm aware of,
09:45books that would have any information on that
09:49in the city of Athens as well.
09:51So there was no way to check also.
09:55And I would say most of the,
09:59probably most of the women who were there
10:01were relatively new Christians,
10:05and none of us probably had an awareness
10:09of cult-type behavior.
10:13Most of us thought, and speaking for myself,
10:17a cult would be defined as Jehovah Witness or Mormons,
10:21or Hare Krishna, that sort of thing.
10:25So there was a lot of ignorance on all of our parts.
10:33And also, I think being in a foreign country
10:37makes you a bit more vulnerable in a lot of ways
10:42if you don't have support as well as,
10:46so you tend to find people who have commonalities with you,
10:51and you kind of stick with that group,
10:52as most humans do.
10:53You stick with where we feel comfortable.
10:56Yeah, I can imagine that would be the case,
10:57because you're in another country,
10:59and here's a church that is,
11:01somehow you've got a tie to from back in the States,
11:04and you're not expecting it to be what you found out that it was.
11:09So let's talk about that a little bit deeper.
11:11What was it like whenever you first discovered
11:14that this isn't what I really thought it was?
11:18Because I was so naive and such a brand-new Christian,
11:22the only thing that was a bit peculiar to me
11:25was such a lively worship.
11:28And then slowly I heard the wife,
11:35who was the worship leader,
11:38throwing out sentences of tongues,
11:42but not in an intelligible language.
11:45So I don't know if you want to call it static speech
11:49or gibberish, whatever one feels comfortable,
11:53where they're at.
11:56And that was very curious.
11:58I'd never heard that before.
12:00But the sermons themselves,
12:04in the beginning,
12:05although they were pretty loud, I would say,
12:13I did not find anything
12:15that put a check in my spirit.
12:19But as a young Christian myself,
12:21I don't think I could have identified it,
12:25not unless it was a complete heresy
12:28that any young Christian could identify.
12:32But I would say basically,
12:34probably most would be the worship
12:38made me wonder what's going on
12:41when I started hearing the speaking in tongues.
12:44And that subject had not been broached
12:49in any of the sermons yet.
12:51So she did have women's Bible studies.
13:00And also she did have a lot of socialization
13:04with individuals,
13:06I guess, trying to make us feel
13:09like she's our friend
13:11and be part of the church, etc.
13:13And so I did ask about that with her.
13:17And then she started telling me
13:18about the second occurrence,
13:24which is called what they call
13:27the baptism of the Holy Spirit,
13:29which the Pentecost,
13:31most Pentecostal readers
13:32are a second experience
13:34after one is born again
13:38and baptized.
13:39And that it entails,
13:42the Church of God of Prophecy
13:43believes that the evidence
13:45of baptism of the Holy Spirit
13:47is speaking in tongues.
13:49And then subsequent gifts
13:51can be given
13:52as God feels that that's appropriate.
13:57And those are used in the church
13:59or outside to as God wills
14:04or gifts us with.
14:06But so I wanted,
14:11as I hear a lot of Pentecostal people
14:14say when they,
14:17after they receive tongues
14:19or not, that's a,
14:21I don't want to say that word receive,
14:23after they start speaking in tongues.
14:26that I wanted these gifts.
14:30I wanted everything
14:33that God had to offer me.
14:35And if this was going to bring me
14:36into a stronger relationship
14:39with the Lord,
14:41and that's what I wanted.
14:42And I heard this said
14:48from other Pentecosts
14:51who are willing to say it,
14:53it kind of made me feel
14:55like I had an edge.
14:56I always looked at superior.
14:58Shamefully to say that.
15:00But it's the truth.
15:02And I know that the,
15:06that I can only speak
15:08for this church in Athens.
15:11I'm sure there's other churches
15:13in America
15:13who are in Church of God of Prophecy
15:16that will be completely different.
15:21But she would say that we,
15:27she would,
15:28she verbally did say,
15:30but it was mainly insinuated
15:31that this Church of God of Prophecy
15:34is the only true church.
15:35And so that,
15:40if you're immature,
15:41like I was,
15:42that gives you maybe a feeling
15:44of looking at others
15:46as less than,
15:48which I did.
15:49Of course,
15:50I would never admit it then,
15:52but I did.
15:54And that's one of the top 10 signs
15:57of a Christian religious cult.
15:59Whenever you have a group
16:01that sees themselves as the elite
16:03and they're the only ones
16:04and what they essentially,
16:06they're doing,
16:06they're severing the body of Christ.
16:08They're saying that we're,
16:09we're the special Christians,
16:10you are not.
16:12And I,
16:13I'll never forget that feeling
16:14whenever I first had to apologize
16:16myself for being such an elitist.
16:19Because we really,
16:21it's so deep,
16:22people who have never experienced this
16:24can't understand,
16:25but it's so deeply embedded
16:26into your personality
16:27that you start to feel yourself
16:30superior in all situations.
16:32You can be at the grocery store,
16:33you can be in a restaurant,
16:35and the people who are serving you
16:37at the restaurant,
16:38they're lower than you
16:39because you're this elite Christian.
16:42I would,
16:43I would probably have to confess
16:45to that at some level.
16:46I probably would,
16:47yes.
16:48Yeah.
16:49I know it was definitely
16:50that way towards
16:51anyone in another religion.
16:54That's for sure.
16:56Um,
16:57another thing is that
16:58during that period of time
16:59in the country of Greece,
17:02um,
17:03any outside church
17:04from Orthodoxy
17:05was considered heretical
17:07except the Catholic Church,
17:09um,
17:09but all other churches
17:11were considered heretical.
17:12And there were
17:14one or two occasions
17:16that I'm aware of
17:17where the Orthodox priest
17:19came into the,
17:22um,
17:22the building
17:23that we were meeting in.
17:25It wasn't an official church.
17:26It was a,
17:27like a storefront type of thing.
17:29And they did threaten them.
17:32Um,
17:33I don't think,
17:34I think it was more
17:35a scare tactic.
17:36I don't think anything
17:36came out of it.
17:38But,
17:39um,
17:39that was greatly
17:40publicized within the church
17:43and it all gave us
17:44a feeling of
17:45martyrdom.
17:47And,
17:47um,
17:48again,
17:49that expanded
17:50the feeling
17:51of superiority.
17:53Um,
17:53also,
17:54at that period of time,
17:55the,
17:55um,
17:57Orthodox Church
17:58was very involved,
18:00uh,
18:01part of the government
18:01politically.
18:02Um,
18:03in order for your children
18:05to go to
18:05a Greek school,
18:07you had to show
18:08proof of,
18:08uh,
18:09baptism
18:10in,
18:10excuse me,
18:11in the Orthodox Church.
18:14And,
18:15um,
18:15this is a side note.
18:17But,
18:18um,
18:20if,
18:21uh,
18:22being a foreigner
18:23and not having
18:24a citizenship,
18:26if you
18:26wanted to,
18:28let's say,
18:29leave your husband
18:30and take your children,
18:31um,
18:32he could avoid,
18:33he could prevent
18:34that from happening.
18:35Um,
18:36if he was angry
18:37at you
18:38and,
18:38um,
18:40uh,
18:41wanted to make you
18:42have a difficult life,
18:44he could report you
18:45as being a heretic
18:47and bringing,
18:49proselytizing
18:50your children.
18:51So,
18:52all those things
18:53were made known
18:53to us,
18:54which,
18:55um,
18:55I personally
18:56had no idea,
18:57but it didn't affect me.
18:59Um,
19:00that wasn't the case.
19:01with myself
19:02and my husband.
19:03But,
19:03um,
19:04those were
19:05definitely fear tactics
19:06that also fed into
19:08the,
19:09uh,
19:10being maybe
19:12martyred a bit
19:13and
19:14a bigger head.
19:17Look what I'm...
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