00:00Now, in the wake of the capture of Nicola Maduro from Venezuela, President Trump and
00:06his senior advisers are becoming increasingly explicit that their next target is Greenland,
00:12either through buying the island from Denmark or using the US military to seize the territory.
00:19So how should Europe respond then to an increasingly bellicose White House?
00:24To discuss, I'm very pleased to welcome to the programme Barry Andrews.
00:28He's an Irish member of the European Parliament, where he is a member of the centrist Renew
00:35Europe bloc.
00:36Good afternoon to you and thanks for joining us.
00:39My pleasure.
00:40Delighted to join you.
00:41Can I just ask you directly, first of all, look, what is Europe going to do if Donald
00:46Trump keeps to his word and tries to acquire Greenland potentially by force?
00:53Well, it's obviously something that we want to avoid.
00:56We will exercise every diplomatic channel to make our case to the United States.
01:04And of course, Denmark will be in the lead.
01:05The Kingdom of Denmark has offered to meet with their counterparts, in particular Marco Rubio,
01:13to explain exactly what Denmark's position is, to underline the fact that there is already
01:21substantial US military presence on the island of Greenland.
01:26And the Danish government have been very clear that they're very happy to discuss expanding
01:31that US military presence so that if it is the genuine concern of the Americans that
01:39their own national security is somehow under threat because they're not present enough in
01:45Greenland, that is something that can be addressed at a diplomatic level.
01:50Failing that, of course, I understand your question is, well, what happens if President Trump carries
01:55through his threat to expand American territory?
01:59What happens if President Trump carries through his threat that is implicit in his national security
02:05strategy and indeed in his inauguration address last January?
02:09Well, then the European Union is faced with a really, really difficult position.
02:14My own view is that militarily, of course, there's no question of taking on the United States.
02:21But there are many, many trade and economic levers that Europe can potentially use in order
02:30to challenge unilateral action taken by the United States in this regard.
02:34OK, so you say military, some kind of military response by Europe, almost certain to be off
02:39the table should Trump make sure on his threat here.
02:43Look, if any of this does actually happen, I mean, help us understand the gravity of this.
02:48It is the death of NATO, isn't it?
02:51It's the death of the transatlantic alliance.
02:53Well, I mean, you go back to 2017 and you see that President Macron was quite explicit at
03:02that time that he felt that NATO had already suffered brain death and serious question marks
03:08now have to arise putting Greenland to one side as to whether Article 5 still abides and
03:16still applies as regards to the members of NATO.
03:19You know, I just underline the fact that I represent the constituency of Dublin.
03:23In Ireland, we are militarily non-aligned like three other European Union countries.
03:29So essentially, it is a matter for the NATO members to decide what they're going to do.
03:33But it is clear from the statement of Prime Minister Mehta Friedrichson that she views the
03:40potential threat from Trump to be a red line and obviously an end of NATO.
03:46And I think that is something that has been taken very seriously in Washington.
03:51You know, everybody thought it was a joke a few months ago, frankly, that Trump had his eyes on Greenland.
03:59But he's made good on threats to Iran.
04:03He has bombed Nigeria.
04:05He has kidnapped, essentially, the president of Venezuela.
04:08And the unorthodox nature of his foreign policy, the inconsistent and transactional nature of that foreign policy has caught everybody by surprise.
04:19But I think the European Union has anticipated it in its strive for strategic autonomy in security and defence matters.
04:28And I'm glad that that has happened and that that is taking place.
04:32It has anticipated this set of events.
04:34Whatever happens, I know that the European Union will stand shoulder to shoulder with the Kingdom of Denmark.
04:40Well, you say Europe has anticipated some of this.
04:44But you did also say on the Platform X earlier on this week that Europe must move rapidly to secure our place in what you described as an increasingly lawless world.
04:54That in the wake of the events, of course, in Venezuela, I wonder whether you have this sense then that sort of Europe is almost failing to move fast enough in this new world order that feels kind of almost colonial, doesn't it?
05:07With the US, China and Russia having their spheres of influence and Europe seemingly a little sidelined.
05:14Well, look, we're all very fond of talking down Europe and we're very fond of describing existential threats to the future of Europe.
05:24But, you know, Europe expands by invitation.
05:28There is a waiting room of countries trying to get in to the European Union, which is packed, I would say.
05:34Western Balkans, Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine and others.
05:39And the European Union's state of health is always questioned by people talking it down.
05:43And, of course, it's a different type of organization.
05:47It's different to the United States, which can act more quickly.
05:50But it has proven the test of time.
05:53It has got stronger as a result of the economic crisis in 2008.
05:58It got stronger as a result of the migration crisis, as a result of Brexit, as a result of Ukraine.
06:03And even COVID-19 strengthened the European Union.
06:06And each crisis has strengthened the fabric of the European Union.
06:09We are now facing a new geopolitical threat.
06:11And as I said, I believe the European Union has anticipated the possibility that the United States would become less reliable in terms of security and defense,
06:22would become less reliable as an economic partner, and that the geopolitical situation would fragment in the way that it has.
06:29And that's why we have moved towards strategic autonomy, not just in security and defense, but also in trade and in our economy and in our competitiveness agenda.
06:39Emmanuel Macron, the French president, has been addressing French ambassadors today.
06:43I do just want to play you, if I may, a little clip of what it is that he had to say.
06:47We are living in a world of great powers, with a real temptation to divide the world.
06:56And I believe that what has happened in recent months, or sometimes in recent days, has done nothing to change this.
07:04And so this is a great risk to the international order in which we live.
07:07The United States is an established power, but one that is gradually turning away from some of its allies.
07:12It is breaking international rules that it promoted until recently, concerning trade and certain security areas.
07:20So, Mr Andrews, Emmanuel Macron there saying, look, the United States is turning away from its allies, it's breaking international rules, he says.
07:28But he didn't criticize Donald Trump directly.
07:30I wonder whether you think Emmanuel Macron there has found the right tone with the United States.
07:36Yeah, look, I'm very sympathetic to the European leaders who are, you know, obviously recognize that Ukraine is our number one priority right now,
07:46that we have to find a pathway towards peace.
07:48We have to find a pathway towards bringing an end to the conflict in Ukraine.
07:52It's absolutely crucial for European Union's central towering interest that that happens.
07:57And of course, the United States plays a crucial role in making sure we find that very narrow pathway towards peace.
08:03And so you have to couch your language to make sure that we keep the United States on board.
08:08I think the fragility of the relationship is being underscored in the comments that President Macron has just made.
08:13And I think they're consistent with how many countries are feeling.
08:17And if I may just comment, as an Irish person, we host a lot of American companies.
08:24And while we are absolutely condemned the breaches of international law that are involved in what happened in Venezuela,
08:31we're also very conscious that we rely very much as an open global trading economy on a good relations with the United States.
08:38But we've had these crises before. Brexit was a massive crisis to the Irish economy.
08:43We survived it. Our prime minister has just come back from China, where he is developing our trade and diplomatic relations with China.
08:52So it's a very difficult world. And I agree with President Macron.
08:56And the smaller countries really do have to stick together.
08:59And as somebody has wisely said, Europe consists of small countries and those countries that don't realize they're small countries.
09:05So the more we stick together as 27, with the United Kingdom, by the way, and Switzerland and Norway,
09:12the more we stick together, the better chance we have of making sure that our values remain central to debates about the future of Ukraine,
09:19the future of Venezuela and the relationship between the United States and, of course, China.
09:24All right. Really good to speak to you today. Thank you very much for your time.
09:26You've been listening there to the Irish MEP, Barry Andrews.
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