'Donroe Doctrine: Venezuela, in many ways, is a test for the American ambitions in Latin America'

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00:00Yeah, after the ouster of Nicolas Maduro, Venezuela's regime on its guard, their uniformed

00:16patrols in the streets, and also the detaining of journalists that have been seen. Interior

00:24Minister Diosdado Cabello, who posted these images to social media, patrolling with them

00:35chanting, always loyal, never traitors, doubt is betrayal. Meanwhile, more victory laps from

00:44Donald Trump, this time addressing Republican Congress members at the Kennedy Center in Washington.

00:50But the United States proved once again that we have the most powerful, most lethal, most

00:58sophisticated, and most fearsome. It's a fearsome military on planet Earth, and it's not even

01:05close. I've been saying it for a long time. Nobody can take us. We don't want to have it.

01:09We don't have a discussion, but you read all and you see everything else. Nobody could have

01:14done that. Nobody has our weapons. Nobody has the quality of our weapons. The problem is

01:19we don't produce them fast enough. We're going to start producing them much faster. We're

01:22going to be very tough on the companies. We have the best weapons in the world, but it

01:26takes too long to get them.

01:27With us is Andrew Hillier from our International Affairs Desk. Trademark Trump not reading from

01:33the prompt or always in those remarks.

01:35Yeah, absolutely. A victory lap, as you said. At times, it has to be said, long, rambling

01:41speech given to House Republicans. And yeah, there was absolutely an element of Donald Trump

01:47again doing a victory lap following this operation to snatch Nicolas Maduro. He, as we heard

01:52there, extolled the remarkable success, he said, of the U.S. military operation, bragging

01:57that no U.S. military personnel were killed, boasting even about turning off the power before

02:05the attack in the early hours of Saturday morning. He also incidentally said that he'd been annoyed

02:10about how Nicolas Maduro had, he said, imitated his dance. And then he continued by saying that,

02:17well, Nicolas Maduro was a violent guy. However, this speech, you have to remember,

02:23is taking place against the backdrop of growing calls on Capitol Hill for more transparency and

02:30particular disclosure about U.S. operations in Venezuela. Monday night, a small group of

02:36congressional lawmakers were approved by Marco Rubio, Pete Hegseth, and other officials.

02:41Responses to that briefing falling back along party lines. Mike Johnson, House Speaker,

02:46Republican, saying he didn't expect any troops to be deployed. Democrats who took part in that

02:50meeting saying that, well, they emerged with more questions than answers. Worth pointing out that on

02:55Wednesday, senior Trump officials will also brief all senators about the military raid that captured

03:02Maduro. And what you are seeing is that despite this victory lap, there are growing questions,

03:07there are growing calls for more disclosure, particularly questions amounting over the next

03:12steps. Lawmakers were initially very timid to ask questions in the aftermath of this raid,

03:17nobody wanting to be seen as siding with or giving any sympathy to Nicolas Maduro. But we are seeing

03:24now calls for more disclosure. All right. So grabbing Nicolas Maduro, the easy part,

03:28if you will, it was interesting to see the remarks of the Senate majority leader, John Toon,

03:36who's qualified the new Venezuelan president, Delcy Rodriguez, as, quote,

03:41a practical, pragmatic person and will understand the importance of figuring out a path forward to

03:48where America's national security priorities can be prioritized by Venezuela.

03:53Yeah, well, in a nutshell, that basically reflects what the Trump administration's strategy

03:57appears to be at this stage, Francois, which is to lean on the current power structure in Venezuela,

04:04which carries less risk, as they say, as they see it, to do what the Trump administration

04:10wants them to do. So that power structure, who is it? Well, Delcy Rodriguez, who you just mentioned,

04:15they're the acting president of Venezuela, her brother Jorge Rodriguez, the head of the National

04:19Assembly. You've also got Diosdaro Cabello, who we saw in those pictures as well,

04:23interior minister, and Vladimir Padrino Lopez, the defence minister, powerful figure, of course,

04:29in the armed forces. And the thinking in Washington, in the Trump administration right now,

04:35is that the power structures, they are the ones, the figures there, they are the ones that hold the

04:40sway in key institutions in Venezuela, the military, the electoral council, parts of the judiciary. And

04:47not just that, they also have the connections with Venezuela's business elite. And remember that

04:52the Trump administration, presumably, if they're going to be entering into Venezuela's oil industry,

04:58they will want to maintain connections with that business elite. So that's the strategy it would

05:03appear to be at this stage, leaning on the current power, the current figures who are still in place,

05:10essentially the elements of Maduro's regime. All right. For more, let's cross to Geneva. Jamil Shad is

05:17a Brazilian author and investigative journalist. Thank you so much for being with us here on France 24.

05:25François, happy new year. Very good to be with you. Happy new year to you.

05:29Jamil, again, we're still digesting this concept of replacing the leader, but not the regime. Your thoughts?

05:38First of all, Maduro was not the regime. He was part of a power structure. You just mentioned it. And

05:48it is very clear that for the American government, it was wiser to maintain the structure. But this

05:56actually means that the kidnapping, or whatever you want to call it, of Nicolas Maduro had nothing to do

06:05with democracy, had nothing to do with human rights. It was absolutely an act of an attempt

06:13by the United States to make it clear that Latin America is part of its vital sphere. And it does

06:21want to control the region geopolitically, but also its natural resources. If it was for democracy,

06:28why would you maintain the entire structure of the Bolivarian revolution?

06:37Rodriguez and all the others that you just mentioned, they are part of a structure. You just

06:42mentioned how they are absolutely everywhere in the country. And they also control huge parts of the

06:49economy. So in a way, Maduro, yes, was an important figure. And by the way, indefensible. It's not that we

06:59have any sympathy towards him. But if it was for democracy, if it was for human rights, taking down

07:08Maduro himself is by no means enough. Yeah. And we've had companies like

07:17ConocoPhillips, which claims that it could now restart refineries or manage refineries in Venezuela.

07:28Is this pleasing authorities in Washington or are they serious?

07:31Well, let's wait and see, because obviously the project of basically exploiting these natural

07:41resources, it's not as easy as it seems to be. Just minutes ago, Francois, at the OAS,

07:48at the Organization of the American States, the U.S. delegation said that it would not allow

07:55one of the biggest oil reserves in the world to be under the control of adversaries. So

08:03this was an argument that was just presented minutes ago in an official meeting, meaning that in a way,

08:10yes, the American government is looking at these reserves and basically the control of these reserves

08:16as a strategic element in this story. I wouldn't be surprised if we simply

08:24did not have any elections in Venezuela in 2026, while claiming that this is a transitional period,

08:33that the country needs to get ready for a future election, while obviously maintaining and getting

08:41contracts in order for these natural resources to be channeled to proper destinations.

08:48Now, we've been talking about it, Jamil. Neighboring countries are nervous. We heard Colombia's

08:54foreign minister this Tuesday saying the military there should be ready in case the U.S. tries to

09:00violate the country's sovereignty. What's the feeling in your native Brazil?

09:07A lot of preoccupation. A lot of people very much worried that this means actually

09:14an attempt to interfere again in Latin American politics for the years to come. This brings us back

09:23to the worst scenarios, to the worst images of Latin America and the United States of the 50s,

09:29of the 60s, of the 70s. So the region knows that these things can happen. The reality is that many

09:37of us thought that this was gone, that this chapter had been absolutely abandoned. But no, there it is. We

09:45have it again. Venezuela in many ways is a test for the American ambitions in Latin America. If it works out

09:59with democracy or without democracy, it will generate obviously a lot of fear that this model,

10:06this doctrine, could actually be replicated anywhere in Latin America.

10:12Now, Brazil votes general elections in October, by the way, after Colombia, which votes in May.

10:20Will there be more or less support for Donald Trump?

10:25Let us see. But the government is worried that this would mean that, yes,

10:30yes, Washington will be looking at ways to interfere both in Colombia during the elections, but also

10:38in Brazil in October. So this is the, I would say, the main element of consideration.

10:45Because here's the, Jamil, Trump had been on a winning streak. He'd weighed in and helped

10:55Milay in Argentina to win the midterms. In Honduras, the Trump administration made clear

11:03who its preferred candidate was. You have the far right winning in Chile in a presidential election.

11:10This intervention in Venezuela, will it help or hurt his cause among ordinary citizens in South America?

11:21Well, today, the region is divided. That is the truth. As I just told you, the OAS meeting,

11:29the Organization of American States showed this very clearly. Now, the question is whether this will

11:35boost any, I would say, right-wing candidates around the region, especially in Brazil and in Colombia.

11:42In Brazil today, we already see the right-wing candidates claiming that this is a big victory

11:49for freedom in South America. But I insist, if it was about freedom, if it was about democracy,

11:57why do you maintain the entire structure in power? Basically, democracy is not on the table at this

12:06moment in Venezuela. So in many ways, this looks like to be much more of a theater than anything else

12:14in terms of arguments. The central element, no doubt, is the ability of the United States to make it clear

12:23that the Western Hemisphere is their region. America first means something, Francois. It means

12:33America first, as it says. Andrew Hillier.

12:38Yeah, just I want to pick up on something Jamil said that was quite interesting regarding the concern

12:41that there might not be any election at all held for the foreseeable future in Venezuela. That is

12:45perhaps just one area. We haven't heard Republicans really speaking out and criticizing Donald Trump about

12:50this operation. But one area in which you might hear Republicans speaking out, we heard that today,

12:55is regarding elections. We heard from one Republican Congressman Carlos Jiménez from Florida,

13:02whose constituency is home to a large Venezuelan community, calling for elections to be held within

13:08months. Of course, that stands at odds with what Donald Trump has been saying. He says that it's too early to

13:14hold elections. And of course, if Washington is going to rely on this current power structure,

13:19and given that Washington appears to be openly framing this around oil and not around democracy

13:25and human rights, then it would be very hard to see the administration pushing for elections.

13:29Speaking of elections, Jamil Shad, they're having elections also in the United States, midterms.

13:34We're 10 months away, November. Is this a factor or is this just considered for Americans as

13:41something that's foreign policy and doesn't really matter? Well, I did see one poll showing that only

13:50one in every three Americans think this is a positive development for the United States, meaning the

13:59kidnapping or the bringing Maduro to trial in the United States. So I'm not sure how much this will

14:08wait in the entire election. But in the Latin American community in the United States, this may have

14:16an effect, especially in Florida, in all those regions that we know that could count, obviously, for

14:22Republican votes. Now, let's remember, this is happening at the same time as deportations are happening

14:29from the United States, where a lot of Latin Americans are very much disillusioned about

14:36Donald Trump. For many months, they thought, no, this will not happen to me, only to criminals. And

14:42suddenly they see that everyone is basically under threat today, everyone meaning Latins in the Latino

14:49community in the United States. So let's see. Let's see. Certainly, certainly we'll have a lot to debate on that.

14:56All right. May, thanks, Jamil Shad, for joining us there from Geneva. I want to thank, as well,

15:02Andrew Hillier for being with us. We'll be talking more about how the rest of the world sees

15:09America first in the France 24 debate. That's coming up in a little under 20 minutes time.

'Donroe Doctrine: Venezuela, in many ways, is a test for the American ambitions in Latin America'

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