00:00Stay in Washington with correspondent Fraser Jackson.
00:04They're firing on all cylinders where you are.
00:08And with Venezuela, what's happening there?
00:12Donald Trump's Truth Social post overnight saying that the U.S. would be using
00:18what he claims to be 30 to 50 million barrels of Venezuelan crude that's been seized.
00:25And now the breaking news of these two ships seized, one in the Caribbean and the other
00:32in the North Atlantic.
00:37Yeah, basically, the big news, really, that one in the North Atlantic, that ship has been
00:43tracked for over a month by U.S. authorities.
00:46They first tried to apprehend it, but ultimately they have now succeeded a month later in boarding
00:52and seizing that tanker, which has been linked to the Venezuelan oil shadow fleet.
00:57Now, this vessel was initially called the Bella One.
01:00It was believed to be heading towards Venezuela a month ago when they tried to intercept it
01:04initially, but it has since changed its name to Marinara and its flag from Guyana to Russia.
01:10Now, the tanker basically escaped that naval blockade that is existing in the Caribbean
01:15and has been pursued by U.S. ships ever since.
01:18Russia even sent ships and a submarine to escort the vessel for the rest of its journey.
01:23But the U.S. Coast Guard ultimately managed to board the ship before they arrived.
01:27The vessel also currently located between Iceland and the British Isles, around 200 miles or so
01:34southeast of Iceland.
01:36And of course, that ship's standing accused of breaking U.S. sanctions and shipping Iranian oil.
01:41Although, like I said, it's also been historically transporting Venezuelan crude oil.
01:45But reports do say that it is empty at the moment.
01:48That second tanker, though, also a seized, was in the Caribbean.
01:52The SOFIA, a stateless tanker, as we just heard from Caroline Levitt, that she says was conducting illicit activities.
01:59The SOFIA being escorted also to the United States, we just heard from the press secretary there,
02:03as well as part of the U.S.'s Operation Southern Spear.
02:06Now, we've heard from other officials as well.
02:09PXX calling the blockade of sanctioned and illicit Venezuela oil remains in full effect anywhere in the world.
02:16And it's important because this is really part of the United States' tactic to put a financial squeeze on Venezuela,
02:24which they believe will bring the Venezuelan interim president to the table and force her and the regime that she now presides over into the U.S.'s way of thinking.
02:34And there are already some signs that that is starting to bear some fruit.
02:39Stay with us, Fraser, because we're going to cross to Birmingham in England.
02:43Stephen Wolfe, Professor of International Security at the University of Birmingham.
02:48Thank you for joining us here on France 24.
02:52Hello.
02:52The day began with the Wall Street Journal reporting a Russian submarine approaching what had been the Bella One,
03:01what is now the Marinara, this shadow tanker that was purportedly heading towards the Russian port of Murmansk in the Arctic.
03:12And yet the seizure here by the U.S. Coast Guard.
03:16Your thoughts?
03:17Well, I think the seizure and the approach of the Russian submarine are clearly connected in time.
03:26I think that was probably the last moment that the U.S. could move relatively safely
03:31before Russia would have more of its own naval assets in the area.
03:37As you can see on the map there, obviously, also, it's quite conveniently located relatively close to one of the key transatlantic allies of the United States,
03:46the United Kingdom, who have given some operational support to this seizure of this tanker that's clearly been violating longstanding U.S. sanctions.
04:00So from that perspective, it's an escalation, but it's probably not as bad an escalation as it would have been had the seizure happened later in the presence potentially of more Russian naval assets in the area.
04:13Right now, the Russian reaction is talking about violations, but it's relatively understated.
04:23It's early days, all we have are communiques on the part of Moscow.
04:28In the longer term, how do you see Vladimir Putin reacting?
04:34Well, I think what it clearly indicates to Vladimir Putin is that if push comes to shove,
04:40the U.S. under President Trump will do whatever Trump and his close team feel to be in the best of U.S. interests,
04:49and that there is very little that the Russians actually can do.
04:53I mean, we have seen that over the developments in Venezuela.
04:57I mean, Venezuela is clearly one of the, if not the most important allies of Russia in Latin America.
05:06Trump went in, abducted Maduro, and all the Russians could do was issue furious statements of protests.
05:15Same thing we are seeing now with this tanker again.
05:19I mean, in the long run, there is probably going to be a further escalation of these types of actions,
05:27but I don't really see much leverage that Russia has here at the moment to really contain these clear attempts
05:36and successful attempts of the U.S. reasserting its dominance in the Western Hemisphere and beyond.
05:43And, Stefan, clear this up for our viewers, because it's confusing.
05:47Even in that press conference we just heard from the White House, on the one hand, as you say,
05:54showing firmness when it comes to Russia and China.
05:57On the other, keeping on the table the possibility of a military action against a NATO ally, Denmark,
06:05when it comes to Greenland.
06:07And at the end of the day, which side is the United States on?
06:13Well, I think if you asked that, either the White House press secretary or the president himself,
06:19he would say they are on the side of the U.S.
06:22So it's clearly an America first policy, and that at times has these very confusing and not very logical moves.
06:33On the one hand, putting very clear pressure on Russia and China by basically destroying their foothold in Latin America
06:43or one part of their foothold in Latin America.
06:45On the other hand, also not shying away to say, actually, well, this is the Western Hemisphere,
06:50and Greenland is part of the Western Hemisphere, so we want Greenland as well.
06:55So I think from that perspective, this is not, certainly from a European perspective,
07:00a very coherent policy of the administration here.
07:05But I also think we should not overstate, at the moment, the likelihood of an actual military mission by the United States to take over Greenland.
07:16I think Secretary of State Mario Rubio was very clear this morning,
07:22and as has been reported also in his comments to leaders of the U.S. Congress,
07:28that the military option is really off the table.
07:33So the thing that Trump still talks about it is very much meant to put pressure on the Europeans
07:39to come to some kind of deal that he would like to make over Greenland.
07:46And let me bring in on this our correspondent there in Washington.
07:58even the Speaker of the House of Representatives,
08:02who's pushing back a little bit on the limits of America First in this case.
08:12Yeah, I think, you know, there's a certain line that some Republicans are not willing to cross,
08:19and, you know, there is concern that this will escalate and bring the U.S.
08:25into a more direct conflict with people who are supposed to be, you know,
08:30American allies and very close allies of the United States.
08:34It's interesting.
08:35I've been, you know, obviously this has been being talked about for months now,
08:38but it's really kind of escalated in the course of the last couple of days.
08:41I've been speaking to a couple of sources over the course of the last 24 hours or so,
08:46and, you know, some of them are very worried and see this as a very legitimate threat.
08:49And also listen to the words of Marco Rubio, who just in the press conference on Sunday,
08:55when we heard about this operation in Venezuela,
08:59Marco Rubio said that people need to learn that the United States president is not joking
09:05and is serious when he says things.
09:07But I've also spoken to other sources who believe that the Europeans are playing this completely incorrectly
09:12and kind of falling into Donald Trump's trap here.
09:15And if anything, they're worried that what will end up happening is the Europeans will end up painting Donald Trump into a corner
09:21where his only way out of it is to use military force because of the rhetoric that Europe has been pushing forward
09:30and effectively calling Donald Trump's bluff.
09:32So, you know, there are a couple of ways that this could go,
09:35and I thought that was a very interesting take from this source.
09:37But it is a legitimate concern for the Europeans, of course,
09:41who've said that the only people who can dictate the future of Greenland are the people in Greenland itself
09:48and, of course, Denmark as well.
09:50Yeah, we heard from the White House press secretary earlier.
09:53Let's listen to what the U.S. Secretary of State had to say, Marco Rubio, on Capitol Hill,
09:59before speaking with lawmakers.
10:01The U.S. intend to buy Greenland.
10:03And can you clarify your comments to lawmakers this week?
10:06Well, that's always been the president's intent from the very beginning.
10:08He said it very early on.
10:09I mean, this is not new.
10:10He talked about it in his first term.
10:12And he's not the first U.S. president that has examined or looked at how could we acquire Greenland.
10:18There's an interest there.
10:18But so I just reminded them of the fact that not only did Truman want to do it,
10:21but President Trump's been talking about this since his first term.
10:24We're joined by Philip Turrell from our international affairs desk,
10:28who's been monitoring reaction out of Denmark, of course.
10:32Philip, there's going to be, Marco Rubio announced it, a meeting taking place with the Danes.
10:38This is something Copenhagen had requested.
10:42You heard Fraser saying how some people think the Europeans are playing this wrong.
10:47What's the view from Denmark on this?
10:48I don't think that the Danes think that they are playing this wrongly.
10:52They say that they have the control of Denmark.
10:55They are not willing to hand that over to the United States.
10:58They're not willing to sell Greenland to the United States either.
11:05And that's the end of the story.
11:07I think they've been asking.
11:08I think there is definitely worry in Denmark itself about the military action and what would happen.
11:13I think the news that Marco Rubio is going to meet with Lancelot Arasmussen,
11:19the foreign minister of Denmark next week, is going to come as a relief to the Danes.
11:25That's what they've been pushing for.
11:28But it's true that the feeling in Copenhagen is that if the United States moves into Greenland,
11:36takes control of it, well, the Danes will have nothing else to do but to pull out.
11:39And if they pull out, that is going to be very bad news for the people of Greenland
11:43because everything in Greenland comes from Denmark.
11:46The food is imported in.
11:47There's no agriculture there.
11:49The only thing that the Greenlanders, the Inuits, only 57,000 people,
11:54they depend on the fishing industry.
11:56But there is no agricultural industry at all in the country.
12:03Everything comes from Denmark and the health system comes from Denmark as well.
12:06So if all of the Danes, the Danish backing pulls out, then the country will collapse.
12:12Is the United States interested in that?
12:14I'm not sure that is a high priority on the US's agenda.
12:18What they want is to take control of Greenland for military purposes,
12:21to protect the United States and also get their hands on raw materials in Denmark.
12:25So that's a very worrying position for the actual residents in Greenland themselves.
12:30And that's why there's such a huge number of Greenlanders who are not in favor of the United States taking control.
12:38Only 6% of Greenlanders, when asked, say they favor a US takeover.
12:42Although a much greater number of Greenlanders would like independence from Denmark,
12:46but they're not looking for another country to take over control if the Danes are to pull out.
12:51Stéphane Wolff, your thoughts on how the Europeans are playing it.
12:55And remember, we saw those images on Tuesday evening of all those European leaders here in Paris,
13:01alongside Donald Trump's envoys, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner.
13:08I think the Europeans have to tread a very careful line here.
13:13I mean, there are a lot of things at stake for European security at the moment.
13:19There's still quite a strong fear of American abandonment that the Europeans want to avoid.
13:28And above all, I think they are very clear that they do not want to necessarily irritate Trump.
13:36That said, I also think that it is right to actually put out some very clear red lines here
13:44that the Europeans would not be willing to see crossed.
13:48Now, we are not talking here the mutual defense clause of the treaty on European Union
13:54and potentially a war between the US and Europe.
13:59But I think there would be very serious implications, including for US national security.
14:05On the one hand, Greenland is only part, one part of Arctic security.
14:10Arctic security extends to Iceland, it extends to Norway.
14:14So from that perspective, I mean, the US would be very well advised to actually think about
14:20alliance options in the North Atlantic more generally.
14:25And also, as we have just seen, the US still depends, to some extent at least,
14:30on good defense cooperation with Europe.
14:33I mean, the tanker near Iceland was seized with operational support from the United Kingdom.
14:39If it really comes to some sort of blues over Greenland, if the NATO alliance disintegrates,
14:47I mean, what would happen to all of those joint command structures?
14:50What would happen with US military forces based in Europe?
14:55What would ultimately happen with US abilities to project force beyond the Western Hemisphere?
15:01I think all of these are things that need to be considered.
15:05And I think it's quite important also to see that obviously there is already some pushback in Congress.
15:13The United States administration under Trump is not as united as it might seem.
15:19And I would also doubt that the Pentagon is particularly in favor of dismantling military alliance structures
15:28that have grown over the past decades into helping the US to become and remain for a very long time
15:37the preeminent military power in the world.
15:39One quick final question for you, Stefan.
15:41Is this great power policy being redrawn by the United States or performative politics?
15:50I mean, we're showing on our channel those images fed to us by the Trump administration of ships being seized.
15:57It almost looks like an action movie.
15:59Is that what this is?
16:02Yes, I think there is a lot of performance in here.
16:06But these performative actions also, of course, send signals.
16:09And they are sending signals in the case of the seizure of the tanker, very clearly signals to Russia.
16:17The capture of Maduro signals to Russia, to China, but also to Maduro's allies in Latin America, for example.
16:26And, I mean, the moves over Greenland.
16:28And again, I mean, this goes back to 2019 when Trump brought this up first.
16:34He had visits by Vice President Ranz and one of Donald Trump's sons to Greenland last year.
16:42I mean, all of this is performative, but in this performance lie very clear indications also of what the US is actually thinking and where it might be heading.
16:54So, in this sense, I think we need to take this seriously, but not to the extent that we are allowing ourselves to slip into some hysteria or panical mood.
17:03Stefan Wolf, many thanks for being with us.
17:06From Birmingham, I want to thank Fraser Jackson, our correspondent in Washington, Philip Turrell.
17:11Yeah, we're talking about the US's Monroe Doctrine for the 21st Century.
17:18It's a claim on the entirety of the Americas.
17:23The Americas where the European Union still wants a faster way in.
17:30The EU agriculture ministers are meeting in Brussels as we speak with an eye to sealing a free trade deal with the Mercosur South American bloc.
17:39As you can see from these images, it's come up with resistance from French farmers who are dead against.
17:47Thus, it's a reluctant Italy that could be the one in the end that seals the deal.
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