- 4 months ago
John welcomes Sam Danner to share his story of involvement in the Shepherding Movement, setting the stage by describing how it emerged as an outgrowth of Branham’s influence and helped shape what later became the NAR. Sam recounts how he first encountered the movement as a young believer in the early 1970s, describing Christian coffeehouses, Pentecostal fervor, and the excitement of discipleship, which soon shifted into rigid submission and authoritarian leadership. Together, they discuss the figures at the heart of the movement such as Derek Prince, Charles Simpson, Bob Mumford, and Don Basham, while exploring how teachings about demons and submission created an atmosphere of fear and control. John adds context by connecting the movement’s roots to Branham, T.L. Osborn, and Christian Identity influences, showing how these networks interlinked.
As the discussion deepens, Sam shares personal experiences of exorcism meetings, authoritarian control, and the emotional toll it took, leading to years of anxiety and mental health struggles. John and Sam connect this to broader patterns in Pentecostal and charismatic history, drawing lines from Branham to Shepherding, to the Jesus Movement, to later revivals like Toronto and Bethel. They reflect on how sincere intentions turned extreme, how networks amplified destructive ideas, and how control was often marketed as discipleship. The conversation ends on reflections about leaving behind controlling systems, the challenges of processing trauma, and the importance of finding healthier faith expressions.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Sam Danner’s Testimony and Early Discipleship
02:38 The Birth of the Shepherding Movement
04:49 Demon Hunts and Fear-Based Control
07:41 Mental Health vs. Demonic Deliverance
08:47 Christian Growth Ministries and Branham’s Influence
10:16 TL Osborne, Racism, and International Crusades
12:11 Submission, Control, and Spiritual Abuse
15:05 John Wimber, Charismatics, and Overlapping Networks
18:03 Radio, Marketing, and Evangelical Growth
19:38 Music, Hippies, and the Jesus Movement Connection
22:01 Juan Carlos Ortiz and Mashed Potato Love
23:25 Extremism and the Cult Mindset
25:49 Anxiety, Coverings, and Control Mechanisms
27:43 Holy Laughter and the Toronto Blessing
29:01 Christian Identity, Egyptology, and UFO Beliefs
30:37 Abuse and Adult Spankings in the Shepherding Movement
32:22 Leadership Retreats and Manipulation
36:02 Toronto Blessing Spreads to Local Churches
40:01 Revival Networks and Cross-Pollination
41:24 Outcast and Branded as Judas
42:32 Advice to a Younger Self
44:55 Healing, Therapy, and Processing Trauma
49:02 The Importance of Speaking Out
52:00 Influence of Branham’s Associates
53:11 Closing Reflections
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
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As the discussion deepens, Sam shares personal experiences of exorcism meetings, authoritarian control, and the emotional toll it took, leading to years of anxiety and mental health struggles. John and Sam connect this to broader patterns in Pentecostal and charismatic history, drawing lines from Branham to Shepherding, to the Jesus Movement, to later revivals like Toronto and Bethel. They reflect on how sincere intentions turned extreme, how networks amplified destructive ideas, and how control was often marketed as discipleship. The conversation ends on reflections about leaving behind controlling systems, the challenges of processing trauma, and the importance of finding healthier faith expressions.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Sam Danner’s Testimony and Early Discipleship
02:38 The Birth of the Shepherding Movement
04:49 Demon Hunts and Fear-Based Control
07:41 Mental Health vs. Demonic Deliverance
08:47 Christian Growth Ministries and Branham’s Influence
10:16 TL Osborne, Racism, and International Crusades
12:11 Submission, Control, and Spiritual Abuse
15:05 John Wimber, Charismatics, and Overlapping Networks
18:03 Radio, Marketing, and Evangelical Growth
19:38 Music, Hippies, and the Jesus Movement Connection
22:01 Juan Carlos Ortiz and Mashed Potato Love
23:25 Extremism and the Cult Mindset
25:49 Anxiety, Coverings, and Control Mechanisms
27:43 Holy Laughter and the Toronto Blessing
29:01 Christian Identity, Egyptology, and UFO Beliefs
30:37 Abuse and Adult Spankings in the Shepherding Movement
32:22 Leadership Retreats and Manipulation
36:02 Toronto Blessing Spreads to Local Churches
40:01 Revival Networks and Cross-Pollination
41:24 Outcast and Branded as Judas
42:32 Advice to a Younger Self
44:55 Healing, Therapy, and Processing Trauma
49:02 The Importance of Speaking Out
52:00 Influence of Branham’s Associates
53:11 Closing Reflections
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channe
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LearningTranscript
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Sam Danner, former member
00:47of the Shepherding Movement.
00:49Sam, it's good to have you on and to talk about the Shepherding Movement.
00:52Charles and I, as we've been going through the revival history, we touched on it a little
00:58bit, not as much in depth as I would like to in the future, but the Shepherding Movement
01:02was basically the movement that came after Branhamism, and it was a precursor to, basically
01:08it was the architectural design that the NAR was built upon, where you had these very controlling
01:15figures and these shepherds, as they call themselves.
01:19So I'm very excited to have somebody on who was a part of that movement.
01:23I've actually wanted to several times, and getting somebody to actually talk about it
01:28is more difficult than it should be.
01:31So thank you so much for doing this.
01:33Maybe if you could just take a moment and introduce yourself and tell everybody a little bit about
01:38yourself.
01:38Well, in 1973, I was 19 years old.
01:44I'm now 72 years old, and I came to know Jesus Christ as my Savior, my Lord and Savior, at
01:52a Christian coffeehouse in Hager, San Marino.
01:56And it was through this Christian coffeehouse where I came to learn a principle of what they
02:06called the discipleship in those days.
02:10And the Apostle Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ.
02:15And the leader of that particular Christian coffeehouse went to a Pentecostal church, which
02:23was a vibrant, really active, you know, holiness-type church, fire-baptized.
02:29You know what I'm talking about, John.
02:31And they propagated the same kind of thing.
02:34And they were into this movement out of Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
02:40The shuffling movement with it was Bob Mumford, Charles Simpson, Don Basham, and two others,
02:50Ern Baxter, and I missed one.
02:52But anyway, I have it written here, but I'm not going to look at it right now.
02:55And this thing of submission, those fellows down there in Fort Lauderdale, it was called
03:05Christian Growth Ministries.
03:07They really, they meant well.
03:09They meant well.
03:11They didn't come out and say, okay, we're just going to start a call.
03:15And, you know, we're going to get into them, and everybody's just going to, they're going
03:20to follow what we say, and we're just going to start our own thing.
03:26They were sincere brothers in Christ.
03:30Well, I mean, some are still alive today.
03:33They're up in their 80s.
03:34And I'd like to talk to them today, but they just went to extreme.
03:42And later on, like, two of them, I know, I've regretted what they've done.
03:48There was Derek Pence, who was big on the demon thing.
03:52That caused a lot, Derek Pence and another one.
03:55I'm not sure.
03:56But they were big on this demon thing.
03:59To the point, to me, it was frightening.
04:00Because I remember one of the leaders in the church was looking for demons everywhere.
04:07I mean, everything had a demon.
04:09And there was a young man who came down to the coffee house on a Tuesday night during a Bible study.
04:19And for some reason just started to speak out all kinds of nonsense out loud and disturb the meeting.
04:25So, right away, our leader, who was in this discipleship thing, this shepherding thing, he jumped up and pounced on this guy and wrestled him to the ground and started this demon cast-out thing.
04:46Well, I was part of this thing.
04:47So, I had to help hold the guy down because he was thrashing and kicking.
04:54There was just something out of the booker accident.
04:57In my mind, he wasn't fucking against his mouth, but it came close to that.
05:02And try to visualize this in your mind.
05:05It was really scary looking.
05:06And the leader is talking to the guy and telling the demon to identify himself.
05:14He's telling him, identify yourself.
05:16Come out!
05:17I don't, you know, really pronounce.
05:20Scary.
05:22Excuse me, but it was scary as hell.
05:25And he was fighting.
05:27You know, you know, you know what's going on.
05:29I've only been a Christian in four months.
05:31And I'm seeing this kind of stuff.
05:33To me, it's real.
05:35It's all real.
05:37I don't know what to think.
05:39So, everybody around, there's a whole bunch of young Christians.
05:43These young, born-again Christians.
05:45Girls and guys.
05:47Even little kids.
05:49People brought their, you know, babies.
05:50Someone babysat brought their kids along with Bible study.
05:53It was during the time of the Jesus movement.
05:56Out of California.
05:58The big Jesus movement.
05:59Chuck Smith and all that.
06:02Anyway, back to the demon thing.
06:04They're telling the demon to come out.
06:08So, this went on for at least 20 minutes.
06:12So, finally, things kind of died down.
06:15I can't remember in detail what did happen.
06:21But things kind of stopped.
06:23You know, it's interesting because one of my early memories.
06:25I don't have a lot of memories from my early childhood through PTSD.
06:30I guess I lost a lot of them.
06:31But I do remember in my high school years.
06:35And we had one student in high school.
06:39I was unusual in the Branham sect in that I was allowed to attend high school and then later college.
06:45Many people weren't.
06:47Not everybody was allowed to go.
06:48But I went to high school and I remember this one kid who had mental health issues.
06:54And he went into a mental health episode while we – I clearly remember this.
06:59We were in PE class and he was walking right through the gym and his episode hit him.
07:05It attacked him.
07:06And much like you described, these men had to get on him and kind of hold him down as this is happening.
07:11And people kept asking, do you know who you are?
07:15Do you know who you are?
07:15And he would say, I'm the Queen of Sheba.
07:17I'm the Queen of Sheba.
07:19And, you know, I know I'll get backless for saying this, but there is a fine line between what is a mental health episode and what is a demon that needs to be cast out.
07:30And interestingly, if you're in the mindset of the people who are casting out the demons, those are actually one and the same.
07:37So it gets to be an interesting conversation.
07:40But the years that you're mentioning, that's really why I was so interested to have you on.
07:47It's a fascinating history because when Branhamism, after Branham died, and as it transitioned into the shepherding movement, the name that you're mentioning was – you mentioned all of them but one.
08:01The name you struggled to recall was Derek Prince.
08:04He was involved with this too.
08:06Derek Prince was part of this.
08:08But the years that you're mentioning, you're talking about the Christian growth ministries.
08:14That was spearheaded by a guy named Eldon Purvis who was a well-renowned leader in Christian identity.
08:23So this is – as this movement is emerging from William Branham's version of Christian identity into now shepherding, it's interesting to me that a Christian identity leader is spearheading it.
08:34But more than that, there was – there was a Branhamite who is incredibly famous in the Word of Faith movement, T.L. Osborne, who was supplying training materials to Eldon Purvis and Christian growth.
08:49Well, T.L. Osborne believed that William Branham was God in the flesh, and he openly declared it at William Branham's memorial service.
08:58So you had a memorial service in 1966, then not long after that – I want to say it was about the same year all of this began to form –
09:07T.L. Osborne, who thought Branham was God in the flesh, is supplying other Christian identity leaders, and that explodes into exactly what you're talking about in the years that you're talking about.
09:18T.L. Osborne was a big impression. He had this great big – he had a great big slick-looking type newspaper magazine thing, I remember.
09:25And he had this – it's like a goatee-looking deal. He was like a hip-looking guy. So that was attractive to us.
09:33I remember he wasn't well-known amongst the circles I hung with. I mean, he was known, but he was – he wasn't like Billy Graham-like was known, because he was a big evangelist down in his – wait a minute, was it South America?
09:46T.L. Osborne. I think it was Africa, yeah.
09:48T.L. Osborne. Africa. You know, and I was talking to my son last night about how in third world countries, thousands and thousands come to Christ, and thousands of miracles seemingly take place, and because of the simplicity.
10:03I mean, they don't – they don't have all this Western thought and stuff and try to think things through, and I mean, they just believe.
10:10They're poor. They're hungry. They'll take anything. You know what I mean?
10:15There's a couple of interesting things. So T.L. Osborne, in William Branham's – I don't know what you call this. It's like a museum, but it was his den.
10:25In the den is this very, very, very racist statue of a black slave, and it's got the protruded belly button.
10:33I mean, this is a horrific thing. That was gifted to Branham by T.L. Osborne, but you're mentioning the South Africa and how hundreds of thousands of people saved, I think you would advertise.
10:45Right, exactly.
10:46Well, Bob Scott and I had this conversation. You could go into some of those countries during that era, and you could say, come bring your family. We're going to heal you. We're going to offer free meals to those that are hungry.
11:00That last phrase, free meals to those that are hungry, you'd have 100,000 people there.
11:06And then what would happen, they would take photo opportunities. They would take all these pictures of the hundreds of thousands of people. What they didn't show you was the meals that came after.
11:18Was his wife's name Daisy?
11:20I think it was.
11:21Daisy Osborne.
11:22I think it was.
11:23I remember that. She reminded me of Catherine Coleman, because she had to do one of those long gowns.
11:30Catherine Coleman, those were the days, the 70s.
11:32The 70s really took off, and there was, gosh, severing.
11:38I've got so many memories.
11:40It was, it was, I remember Baxter had a book.
11:43And I remember his face on the front of that book, and the name of the book was, I Almost Died.
11:49And I thought, this is really shocking.
11:52You know, why would he write a book, I Almost Died?
11:54I thought, we're all dying.
11:56I mean, he died.
11:58But, and I looked, something about cardiac.
12:00I mean, I had a heart attack in 22.
12:03And I thought, you know, I just, some of the things they would write, provoke thought in me, and so why would they write them?
12:08I, I, I didn't.
12:10If you're supposed to emulate their behavior, because they're into discipleship.
12:15If you're supposed to, some of the things they made, that they said, I would not want to emulate.
12:21If they were followers of me, you know, be ye followers of Christ.
12:24What would Paul say, you know, be ye followers of me, even as I am of Christ.
12:30And some of the things they did and said, if you're going to disciple somebody, or suffer somebody, why would you want to say the things that they said?
12:40I mean, to me, they went to so much extreme, that they let them down the wrong path.
12:46And, and a lot of people, but myself included, suffered mental health issues.
12:52I mean, I, I had a terrible time in the 1980s.
12:56I remember, this is 1973, late 60s, early 70s, on up through the 70s, into the 80s.
13:03And I had an awful time with panic disorder.
13:06And anxiety, generalized anxiety disorder.
13:08Now, some of that stuff, I'm sure, was a genetic predisposition to that.
13:15But, I mean, with all the shuffling issues, you know, the discipling thing.
13:22Uh, I remember when I was, I went to Zion Bible Institute in East Providence, Rhode Island.
13:29If you look up, it's longer there.
13:31They morphed into North Point Bible College, up in New England somewhere.
13:38Anyway, when I came back from Zion, my pastor went there.
13:43And he gave me this thing about following him.
13:48Now, remember, he's, he's, he's been influenced.
13:51He didn't follow these guys.
13:52Well, he was heavily influenced by them.
13:56He was big in the bill of Gothard.
13:58I don't want to go into a tangent.
14:00But, Gothard was influenced by these guys.
14:02He, this thing about submission.
14:07Uh, there was a diagram I saw somewhere.
14:09It may have been Gothard seminars.
14:11It may have been from you, John.
14:12I don't know.
14:13There was a diagram of an umbrella.
14:16Somebody holding an umbrella.
14:18And these arrows coming down from the sky.
14:21And there was holes, a great big passage, holes in the umbrella.
14:26And there were leaks.
14:27It was like a covering, being covered.
14:31But, I don't know, how was it?
14:33Maybe I shouldn't have said this, because I'm not sure how it went.
14:35I have seen the exact diagram.
14:37It wasn't for me, but it was basically an umbrella, and it was letting the bad things through.
14:42The bad things through.
14:43Yeah.
14:44I guess the bad things were from Satan, right?
14:46I mean, the covering was from what?
14:47Submission to the.
14:49That's just the thing.
14:50There are so many different ministries that were influenced by this.
14:55Exactly.
14:55I've got a lot of pushback when I make those historical connections, because people say,
15:00wow, they were never part of this.
15:02Like John Wimber.
15:02Well, it was.
15:03You find John Wimber on the magazine.
15:05He's touring with these guys.
15:06He's saying the same things these guys are saying.
15:09Now, they are correct in that John Wimber would have never said that he's part of this cult called the shepherding movement.
15:15But whenever you are parallel to and working with the same groups, you're part of the problem, because you're not stopping the problem.
15:23That's right.
15:25You're not stopping the problem.
15:26These guys are so excited.
15:30And being back in that day, I was excited because I didn't know anything different.
15:35You were excited in Bram's block because, you know, you don't know anything different.
15:42You know, you're much more mature now.
15:45Back then, you know, it's a prophet of God.
15:47It's a word of God.
15:49Who am I to argue against the word of God?
15:51Who am I to argue against the word of the man of God?
15:54How dare I even question him?
15:57I mean, that's not that called thinking Jim Jones.
16:01David Koresh.
16:03Yeah, Jones and Koresh and any of these guys.
16:05It's the same thing, you know, and when you're younger and she has stuff in Time Magazine and Newsweek.
16:11I remember looking at all the things.
16:12Oh, that's how can anybody do that?
16:15But I did.
16:16I did and didn't know it.
16:19It's like the frog.
16:20And, you know, you know, the analogy with the frog in the word.
16:23You know, one degree at a time of it gets it gets bored.
16:27And no one ever suspects it.
16:29So I'm always, it's checks and balances.
16:30I'm always thinking.
16:32And when I ran across you.
16:34And I don't know how I did.
16:35But leaving the message.
16:36Man, it's like I'm telling everybody.
16:40And I'm not even being discreet anymore.
16:42I mean, I didn't tell everybody, hey, I'm going to be on this program and talk about my past about this stuff.
16:47But especially the shepherding thing, because it's something I could just, once I get focused on certain things about what you talk about, it really, I get upset and think, ah, man, John, how do you find out?
17:00And you listen, you have a listening age of people that's influenced your life that I'm so impressed with.
17:07You named a DJ down in the Washington, D.C. era that I used to listen to, the kind of rock and roll guy.
17:13Man, I haven't heard that in 50 years.
17:15The guy that played Christian Rock, what was his name?
17:19I'm trying to remember the name.
17:20You know, I have come across so many different connections, it's hard to piece it all together.
17:24And I wasn't alive, I guess I was alive, I wasn't present of mind during that era.
17:31So I'm learning it from history.
17:32So I've got this bucket of, I'll bet there's 10,000 names in my bucket that I have to go through and I have to look it up each time.
17:39No, I'll look it up.
17:40But I thought, how did he find out?
17:42Because I thought, wait, I'm older than him.
17:44He certainly can't.
17:45I wish I had the memory, if I had the memory of Charles who works with me, I could just pull it up.
17:53But yes, and I'll say this, the radio DJs, part of the reason why I have some of those names is I'm interested in the history and all the lineage, how this all connects together.
18:05Well, you have to understand to think of it from a business standpoint, because really in its essence, that's what this whole movement is.
18:13It is a business, it is a huge, huge business, very profitable, but to have the business, you also have to have the marketing engine.
18:20And to have the marketing engine during that era, you had to have radio.
18:26It transitioned into television, obviously, and television became the big thing.
18:30But there was a period of time in which if you weren't on the radio, you weren't a minister.
18:33So I started going through the newspapers for the radio advertisements, and I start to see the DJs that are starting to play these guys.
18:40And it's kind of crazy when you piece it all together.
18:43Interestingly, I have had DJs of current Christian ministries who have now escaped this thing contact me, and they'll tell me the inner workings of how all this happens.
18:52You know, they're talking to different parties.
18:55And if you promote Evangelist A, you get so much sum of money and so many sponsors for that person.
19:04And this guy told me, I don't even respect the doctrines coming from that person, but our radio station can't play it, because without him, we don't get the sponsors that come with him.
19:14I mean, isn't that disgusting?
19:19I mean, oh, gosh, that makes me so sad.
19:26That's depressing.
19:29I don't know.
19:32That's a shocker.
19:36I was thinking, last night when I was preparing for this, I didn't notice, but I saw Chuck Duarte pass away on August 11th.
19:44A love song.
19:45Chuck Duarte was big in the Jesus movement, and he was influenced by Branham.
19:56I guess you did.
19:57I didn't see you light up or anything when I said Chuck Duarte, but he was a big, big deal in the 70s with love song.
20:05Love.
20:05Love song.
20:07The Jesus People Band.
20:08It was a very popular group.
20:11Everybody in the shuffering movement would know who all these people are, because all the hippies, the hippie movement was drawn to the shuffering movement.
20:21And what I saw, because all of us, a lot of us, I'm exaggerating, not all of us, in the fellowships, these two fellowships that were connected, they all weren't ex-hippies, but a lot of us were.
20:35You know, long hairs and beards and the whole deal.
20:39And that was a big deal to go to a Pentecostal church, and you had long hair.
20:44You know the deal.
20:45You had that.
20:46All the churches that I had seen, people had white walls.
20:52For you out there who don't know what a white wall is, you know, you had your hair short.
20:56Yeah.
20:56I mean, real short.
20:57I knew what it meant.
21:00It's that white wall that you have when you shave the sunburn off, and you shave the hair underneath the sunburn, you have a white wall.
21:07Exactly.
21:08Exactly.
21:09I mean, you know, I remember a preacher saying, you know, look ugly for Jesus.
21:15Yeah.
21:15It was disgusting.
21:19And they would beat that scripture about, you know, it was about looking, having long hair was effeminate.
21:28In Corinthians, am I saying that right?
21:30Or in Timothy, somewhere.
21:33It was effeminate.
21:34It was the same for a man who had long hair.
21:36And then everybody would argue and bicker about, well, what was long hair?
21:40Or, and get lost is all sentencing about that.
21:44So, getting back to shepherding, I got to pull myself in.
21:47Because these shepherds are, these leaders, the disablishment movement.
21:54They were always wanting to pull you back in line to get you to think in the way that they thought.
22:00And remember that?
22:01Their intentionality.
22:02Their intentions were always sincere.
22:05There was one fellow.
22:07I have a memory.
22:08I thought I didn't have to look at my nose.
22:09That really impressed me.
22:12And the leadership encouraged me, encouraged a bunch of us.
22:16When I say us, the young man in my fellowship, the one I went to, to get involved with him.
22:22It was a book called Disciple by Juan Carlos Ortiz.
22:27That's J-U-A-N-J-U-A-N-J-A-N-C-A-L-L-O-S-O-T-E-S.
22:31And they wrote a book called Disciple.
22:34And he talked about a thing called Mashed Potato Love.
22:36And these were like new concepts, mashed potato love.
22:41Gee, that sounds really cool.
22:44That sounds charismatic.
22:46I mean, this was exciting, exciting doctrine.
22:49So, anything exciting in the charismatic movement was just delicious for new Christians.
22:56Any new experience.
22:58I mean, I can see why, I'll say it, I can see why John MacArthur, a fundamentalist Christian,
23:06gets all bent out of shape, or God will be, you know, he says going to be with Jesus,
23:10gets all bent out of shape about the Pentecostals and the charismatic.
23:14I can understand that fully, because there was so much extremism.
23:21But this Ortiz guy, back in those days, anybody that followed Mufford and Simpson,
23:29and the guys down at New Line or down in Fort Lauderdale,
23:33those men, especially people like Derek Prince, when I came to the demonology thing,
23:39they could basically say whatever they wanted to say.
23:42And I say this reverently of them.
23:45But if they would say,
23:46it's okay to eat five ears of corn on Sunday morning at six o'clock,
23:54people would do it.
23:55I mean, I'm making me a stupid here.
23:56But you know what, it's something stupid.
23:58And because they say that, that's a spiritual thing.
24:01Well, this is how I eat the corn at a certain time.
24:03And the Holy Ghost would come down.
24:06And just weird stuff.
24:08Just anything eccentric.
24:12I'm glad you said it like that.
24:13I have tried to explain this to people who,
24:16when you're in that mindset, you really can't fathom what I'm trying to say.
24:19You can't understand it.
24:22But when we were kids, we used to play with,
24:25I used to have, you know, cardboard boxes.
24:27We'd cut out a sword.
24:28We'd hold the sword.
24:29We'd have the other kids around us.
24:30And we'd say, no, you're the knight.
24:32And you're the, whatever it is.
24:33And you say, no, you're going to go conquer the dragon that's behind the tree.
24:38And, well, there's no dragon behind the tree.
24:39But they'd go off and they would pretend they're fighting the dragon.
24:43Well, come to the adult world,
24:45this is an adult version of that same game.
24:47You can say whatever you want.
24:49People are going to go pretend that they see it too.
24:52The problem is, you mentioned the anxiety,
24:54with that pretending as an adult,
24:58it comes with the same package of anxiety.
25:00Because now, oh my gosh,
25:02there is a dragon behind the tree and I can't see it.
25:05I'm scared of this dragon.
25:06This dragon could destroy my life.
25:08I need the sheltering of God or what,
25:11there's different phrases that they use.
25:12But I need this protection from God
25:14for this invisible thing that I can't see.
25:16And it comes with a package of anxiety.
25:18As a kid, you don't get this
25:20because you know the dragon is probably not real.
25:23And then in the adult world,
25:26I need that covering.
25:27I, even I suffered, my pastor,
25:30where are you?
25:32I mean, I was the same when I was 19 years old.
25:36I went to these guys.
25:38If I had any kind of questions,
25:40I was on the phone.
25:41And back in those days,
25:42it was hard for our phones, you know,
25:44calling them all the time for anything.
25:46And they never, they didn't answer the phone.
25:48He said, if he was,
25:51I'm going to word this really good.
25:52If he was intimate with his wife,
25:55he'd have to break it off
25:56and answer that phone
25:58because that may be a soul.
26:01That may be a soul that needed
26:03to have a question answered about anything.
26:05And we don't know about salvation here
26:07or something critical.
26:08We're talking about,
26:09was it okay to eat corn on a Sunday morning?
26:12You see where I'm going with this?
26:14Yeah.
26:14And that is how critical,
26:16that's how weird
26:16and out of focus
26:18this whole disableship thing got
26:20because they're so committed.
26:22And how denigrating to the wife
26:24who's probably sitting there listening,
26:25thinking,
26:26well,
26:26what do I rate in this?
26:28How do I rate this button?
26:33Yeah.
26:33In the grand scheme of things.
26:36Shocking.
26:37That was a good point.
26:38I'm glad you,
26:39I'm glad you said that.
26:40But, you know,
26:42I saw so much of that.
26:44Then I thought about Rick Joyner
26:46and the Toronto blessing,
26:49people barking like dogs,
26:51rolling around like,
26:52you remember the Three Stooges
26:53when Crowley and Crowley joked?
26:56And Crowley used to...
26:57I'm a huge Three Stooges fan.
27:00Yes, I remember that.
27:01You know,
27:03Crowley used to spin around like a top.
27:04Well,
27:05I've seen that for real.
27:07Down at Ashlyn Pentecostal Campground
27:09in Ashlyn, Virginia.
27:10This is back in the 70s.
27:11Then people are long gone.
27:13You know,
27:13and I thought that was the coolest thing.
27:17I was 20 years old then.
27:18I guess a year.
27:20I've grown a year in the Lord.
27:22And that's not all it goes.
27:24I thought that's,
27:25I thought that's the power of God.
27:27Gee,
27:28was I in for a shock
27:29when I married,
27:31got three children,
27:32got grandchildren.
27:34Gosh,
27:35going through,
27:36how many wars have we been to?
27:37And all the things,
27:39all the things going on in the world.
27:42And all the paradigm shifts.
27:47That we have to deal with
27:48as Christians.
27:51And now we got
27:51UFOs.
27:53We got
27:54discovering things in Egypt.
27:56We're only the parents.
27:58Have you ever wondered
28:00how the Pentecostal movement started?
28:02Or how the progression
28:03of modern Pentecostalism
28:05transitioned through the latter reign,
28:07charismatic,
28:08and other fringe movements
28:09into the new apostolic reformation?
28:12You can learn this and more
28:13on William Branham Historical Research's
28:16website,
28:17william-branham.org.
28:19On the books page of the website,
28:21you can find the compiled research
28:23of John Collins,
28:24Charles Paisley,
28:25Stephen Montgomery,
28:27John McKinnon,
28:28and others,
28:29with links to the paper,
28:30audio,
28:31and digital versions
28:32of each book.
28:33You can also find resources
28:35and documentation
28:36on various people and topics
28:38related to those movements.
28:40If you want to contribute
28:41to the cause,
28:42you can support the podcast
28:43by clicking the contribute
28:45button at the top.
28:46And as always,
28:47be sure to like
28:48and subscribe
28:49to the audio
28:50or video version
28:51that you're listening to
28:52or watching.
28:53On behalf of
28:54William Branham Historical Research,
28:56we want to thank you
28:56for your support.
28:57The shepherding movement,
28:59as I mentioned,
29:00it was connected
29:00to the Christian identity movement.
29:04Buried deep in the Christian identity theology
29:06was also Egyptology.
29:08They believed that the Great Pyramid of Giza
29:10had spiritual significance
29:11and was a road map
29:13to the end of days,
29:15basically.
29:15And they also were,
29:18they were big into the Zodiac.
29:21There was this doctrine
29:22where you're,
29:23how did they call it?
29:24They,
29:25basically your soul
29:26would go up to it
29:27to meet its celestial body.
29:29So,
29:30your soul was going up
29:31to be married
29:32with this other thing.
29:33Well,
29:34whenever all the UFO craze hit,
29:36the Christian identity people
29:38went berserk
29:38because they said
29:39these are these celestial bodies
29:41coming down to pick us up.
29:42And when you think
29:43of where that went,
29:44you had all of the UFO cults
29:46and you had the people who
29:47were even well into,
29:49what was it,
29:49the 80s or 90s people,
29:51Heaven's Gate cult.
29:52Heaven's Gate.
29:52Heaven's Gate cult.
29:54If you really understand
29:55the premise for all of that,
29:58that weird theology,
29:59it developed into
30:01very destructive cults.
30:02But that was the core basis
30:05for what was being created
30:06in the shepherding movement
30:07through Eldon Purvis.
30:08Some of the other people,
30:09obviously not,
30:10but I know that
30:11Baxter was teaching
30:13some of the Christian identity themes.
30:16Baxter was working with Purvis.
30:17All of this,
30:18all of this was connected
30:19in ways that I don't think
30:21people really understand.
30:22I don't know, man.
30:23I think about this all the time,
30:25but, you know,
30:25the Word of God
30:26and there's no aliens,
30:28there's no,
30:28forget that word,
30:29there's no other life,
30:30is what I'm saying.
30:32Is there?
30:32I don't know.
30:33The shepherding movement
30:34did a lot of damage
30:35to a lot of people.
30:37And you can go read stories online.
30:38And there are some guys
30:40helping me research.
30:41I can't give his name,
30:42but he's helping me
30:43piece together
30:44a lot of the moment in time
30:47in which Branhamism
30:49began to shift
30:49into John Wimber's movement,
30:51the Jesus movement,
30:52and all of this.
30:53He's given me pieces
30:54to that puzzle
30:55that, quite honestly,
30:57it's difficult to find.
30:58A lot of these histories
30:59have been covered up.
31:01One of them,
31:02as the shepherding movement
31:03was transitioning
31:04to become more destructive,
31:06they were having adult spankings,
31:07they were having.
31:09Basically,
31:09they were taking the minds
31:11of the adults
31:12and bringing them down
31:13into a beaten,
31:15trodden-down childhood state.
31:17So if you picture
31:18a parent who is
31:19an abusive parent,
31:21well, this is the same thing
31:22as happening
31:23with the pastor
31:24or the quote-unquote shepherd
31:25to the adults,
31:27to the extent
31:28that the adults are,
31:30mentally,
31:31they have the mindset
31:32of an abused child.
31:34So that's how far
31:36extreme it went.
31:37How far did the groups
31:38that you were in contact with
31:40go with the destructiveness?
31:42Did you see anything
31:43that was as destructive
31:45as I'm describing
31:46or was it somewhat mild?
31:47It was mild.
31:48I'm trying to think.
31:50That's Spare the Rod,
31:51and what is it?
31:52Spare the Rod's
31:52for the child
31:53in Proverbs.
31:56There was a bunch
31:56of discussion about that,
31:58but I never saw
31:59any extremes where,
32:02I mean,
32:03there was a lot of discussion
32:04about discipline.
32:08This goes back
32:10to the Gotham thing
32:12which has nothing,
32:13like you said,
32:13he was influenced
32:14by this movement
32:16in Florida,
32:17this shepherding thing.
32:20Gosh,
32:21I mean,
32:21having this little discussion
32:23here now
32:23makes me be slight.
32:24I think you're right.
32:25I mean,
32:25everything.
32:26Whenever the Jesus movement
32:28began to emerge,
32:29did your group
32:30in the shepherding movement
32:32join with that
32:33or did you stay separate?
32:35No,
32:35they joined with it
32:36and they tried to incorporate,
32:38they took the Jesus people
32:39and tried to do
32:41the shepherding
32:41with all of them.
32:43All of them.
32:44And I don't remember
32:44anybody rebelling,
32:45but then,
32:48yes,
32:48let's talk about that.
32:49Good point,
32:50John.
32:51Let's talk about that.
32:53I remember
32:54the lead shepherd
32:55in this group,
32:59the lead shepherd
32:59had a,
33:01it was called
33:02a leadership training seminar.
33:05He had this
33:05and he only had
33:06a select few.
33:07I was in this,
33:08I don't want to say
33:08this out of prior name,
33:09but I was in that group.
33:12And in the early years
33:14of me being
33:16in that fellowship,
33:17I knew that,
33:18I mean,
33:18I used to be a song leader
33:19and I'd preach
33:21and,
33:21you know,
33:22every,
33:23every young Bible student
33:25or Bible college
33:26ambitions I had.
33:29I'm not even going
33:30to be a moody
33:31or anything like that,
33:33but,
33:34you know,
33:34I had aspirations.
33:37So,
33:39he would have
33:41these retreats
33:43way up in the mountains.
33:44It was really cool.
33:45He ran out this lodge
33:46and the church
33:47would put the bill.
33:49They,
33:49they'd get these books
33:50like George Mueller
33:51of Bristol
33:52and all these famous
33:54people of faith,
33:57Reese House,
33:58Hudson Taylor,
34:00quite a few.
34:02They'd buy all these books
34:02and we got these books,
34:04church paid for that,
34:05paid for the lodge,
34:06paid for meals,
34:07overnight,
34:08two nights,
34:08and the select
34:10people would go up
34:11and the lead shepherd
34:13would,
34:15he didn't use the words,
34:16I'm going to shepherd you.
34:18The best way to do them,
34:19follow me
34:21as I follow Christ.
34:23Make,
34:24I mean,
34:24he told me this.
34:25He wanted me to follow him.
34:27This is in the cross,
34:28I told you this earlier.
34:29This was the intentions.
34:31So,
34:33there was an outcry
34:34in the church,
34:35in the fellowship.
34:37Well,
34:37you know,
34:37it was a whole bunch of people,
34:38they had hurt feelings
34:39over this.
34:40Oh man,
34:41they didn't pick me,
34:43you know,
34:43we won't be recognized,
34:45we won't be leaders.
34:47That's what they're saying.
34:49So,
34:50gosh.
34:52Anyway,
34:53he wound up having,
34:53having like a,
34:55a flash mob,
34:56so to speak.
34:59Kind of like
34:59shoved on his front door,
35:01I'm embellishing this,
35:02all right?
35:03For,
35:04it kind of action
35:05just a little bit.
35:06And anyway,
35:07so he wound up having
35:08a whole mob
35:10at these things
35:11and I,
35:12I saw what was going on,
35:13I thought,
35:14well,
35:14you know,
35:16this has turned
35:16into a real circus,
35:17so I just,
35:18I bailed out.
35:19I just was not interested.
35:22I had to check my heart.
35:24Well,
35:24Sam,
35:24what are you doing this for?
35:26Are you really interested
35:27in serving Christ?
35:29Are you interested
35:30in this fellowship?
35:31I mean,
35:31you know,
35:31what,
35:32what are your,
35:33what's your intentionality
35:34in being a minister
35:36or being a preacher
35:37or serving the Lord
35:38Jesus Christ?
35:40Well,
35:40you know,
35:40where is your heart?
35:43Um,
35:44I had to check,
35:45I had to check myself.
35:46so I just got out of that
35:48and eventually
35:49my wife and I
35:51had to leave that church
35:52because of all the,
35:54all the weirdness.
35:56Well,
35:56I'll tell you what,
35:57that,
35:58that thing over there
36:00in Bethel,
36:02we talked about
36:02the Toronto blessing
36:03and the parking
36:05and all that bit.
36:06Well,
36:07that came over
36:07to our church.
36:09They got this
36:10spirit of laughter
36:11and I took my mother
36:13one night
36:14on a Sunday night
36:15to a service
36:17to hear,
36:19to hear a guest speaker,
36:21I won't mention his name,
36:23well known
36:23in these circles
36:25in that Bethel group
36:28and all of a sudden
36:30you got this
36:31Holy Ghost laughter
36:32and the whole
36:34elders,
36:35everybody
36:35got to laughing
36:37hysterically.
36:39I mean,
36:39they were holding,
36:40holding their chest
36:41or stomach
36:41starting to hyperventilate.
36:44I mean,
36:44it was,
36:45I was laughing
36:46and then laughing.
36:47It was funny to see this.
36:49I was so embarrassed
36:50I could die
36:51in a thousand deaths.
36:52I looked at my mother
36:53and there she is
36:55and she's got
36:56this smile on her face
36:56and I thought,
36:58oh, here I am.
36:59I mean,
37:00it was a Pentecostal church
37:01and she knew
37:01what she was up against.
37:04But to have her
37:07see this,
37:09I mean,
37:10I was so embarrassed.
37:12I was so embarrassed.
37:14And to see
37:14my pastor up there
37:16just laughing and laughing
37:19and I could still
37:19see him rocking
37:20going like that.
37:22It's really hard
37:22to believe
37:23because what
37:24these guys have done,
37:25they've taken
37:25things that happen
37:27psychologically to people
37:29and then they use them
37:30against the same people.
37:32When somebody's laughing,
37:33it's hard not to laugh.
37:34In fact,
37:35whenever I'm talking,
37:38so here's one of my secrets
37:39when I record
37:40for those who don't know.
37:41Whenever somebody is talking
37:42and they get to be
37:43a little nervous or upset,
37:45I start laughing
37:46even though
37:46it doesn't show
37:48in the recording
37:49because if I can show my tone,
37:51it kind of projects it on them
37:52and then it lifts their spirit up.
37:53So as I'm talking to people,
37:55I had this one lady say,
37:56wow,
37:56it's really easy
37:57to talk to you
37:58but I was kind of
37:58helping her along
37:59as she was going
38:00and that's the component
38:03of a human being
38:04with a human
38:05and the human interaction.
38:07Well,
38:07laughter is much the same way.
38:09If somebody starts laughing,
38:10it catches on
38:12and if multiple people
38:14do it at the same time,
38:15everybody's laughing.
38:16And so the guy
38:17who came up with the idea
38:19that there's this holy laughter
38:21and when you get filled
38:21with the spirit,
38:22everybody laughs.
38:23That is a brilliant tactic, man,
38:25because it's a human element
38:27nobody can control
38:28and if you can put a brand on it
38:30and market it
38:31and sell it as your version
38:32of Christianity,
38:34it's powerful.
38:35Well,
38:35that's an excellent analogy.
38:37Did you come up
38:37with this psychological insight
38:39or what?
38:41I just,
38:42I learned by doing
38:43and I,
38:44That's pretty cool.
38:44Literally,
38:45I was watching this one lady,
38:46I was working with this one lady
38:47who had a really,
38:48really,
38:49really hard story
38:50and she was just struggling
38:52and I was thinking,
38:53what can I do to help her?
38:54And there's no way
38:55you can help somebody
38:56who is struggling
38:57with her past
38:58other than to encourage
39:00and smile
39:01and so I would,
39:01at the right opportune moments,
39:03I would kind of smile
39:04and, you know,
39:05show myself,
39:06well,
39:06she would watch this
39:08and I could watch her change
39:09as I did it.
39:10So it's more of just
39:11learning by doing
39:12and ironically,
39:15I'm certain that's how
39:16this holy laughter thing
39:17came about.
39:18Somebody learned by doing.
39:19If I start laughing,
39:20I wonder what happens
39:20to the audience
39:21and somebody probably did it,
39:23they probably watched,
39:24well,
39:24this guy down in the front,
39:25he started laughing too.
39:27He had no reason to laugh
39:28because I didn't even tell a joke,
39:29I just started laughing.
39:31So this kind of thing
39:32catches on
39:33and once it does
39:34and it turns into a way
39:35to monetize it,
39:37it becomes a big thing.
39:39Well,
39:39this Toronto blessing,
39:40that was a church
39:42that was at the airport,
39:43right?
39:43Toronto,
39:44International Airport.
39:45How did all that come about?
39:47I mean,
39:47who,
39:48did,
39:49who,
39:49did somebody from Bethel
39:50go over there
39:50and stir them up
39:52or,
39:52I mean,
39:53you got the gist of that
39:54or is that in your book
39:55and I can just read it?
39:56Well,
39:56there's multiple,
39:57so when you think of revival,
39:58there's multiple aspects
39:59that I think people
40:00don't really catch.
40:01You can go to the internet
40:03and you can type in
40:04the Toronto Street blessing,
40:06Toronto blessing,
40:07Toronto revival
40:08and you can see the names
40:09of the people
40:10that started the revival
40:12but you have to understand
40:14the way this works
40:14in these apostolic networks,
40:16somebody will start a revival
40:17and if it makes news
40:19in the network,
40:20well,
40:20then you'll have big names
40:22from other connected networks
40:24start attending
40:25and more and more people
40:27start attending.
40:28I'm told that Paul Cain
40:29was actually one of the people
40:30who was there
40:31who became big
40:32in the IHOP circles,
40:33obviously.
40:33The IHOP, yeah.
40:34Yeah,
40:34so you have multiple people
40:36who join into this
40:37but the way it happens
40:39is whenever that,
40:41when that begins to happen,
40:43now you get all
40:43of this cross-pollination
40:44of ideas.
40:46So,
40:46what,
40:47a lot of the mistakes
40:48that people do
40:49when they try to connect
40:50all of these histories
40:51is they'll go to
40:52whatever is the revival,
40:53they'll look who's the host,
40:54to who are the main speakers
40:56and they limit their research
40:57to that.
40:59And if you miss
41:00all of the other people,
41:01you totally miss
41:02the power
41:04of multiple ministries
41:06coming together
41:07and influencing
41:08multiple people.
41:09That's well thought out.
41:10Then people get credit
41:11that don't really deserve it.
41:12Yeah.
41:13Yeah.
41:14Yeah,
41:15that's not right.
41:17Yeah,
41:18you,
41:19that's well thought out.
41:21Gee,
41:22how long have you,
41:23gosh,
41:23how long have you been
41:24researching this,
41:26John?
41:26Because you,
41:27you were so good.
41:28I was part of the ministry,
41:30I was part of the movement,
41:31the Branham movement,
41:31so I had that
41:32for my lifetime,
41:34but I really didn't begin
41:35studying all the other
41:36networks of
41:37Pentecostal,
41:39until 2012,
41:40that's right.
41:41So,
41:42it's been,
41:42what,
41:4313 years?
41:44Yeah.
41:45When you started
41:46the research and stuff,
41:48did,
41:48were you an outcast
41:49and you're going to hell
41:51and all,
41:51you know,
41:51what was,
41:52what's the reaction
41:54of your peers and stuff?
41:55Oh,
41:55I'm still an outcast,
41:56man.
41:57I'm,
41:57I've been,
41:58I've been branded Judas.
42:00Nobody,
42:00nobody gets that term,
42:02man,
42:02unless you're the bottom
42:03of the bottom
42:03of the bottom.
42:05But,
42:05you know,
42:06it's,
42:06it's a problem
42:08more to the cult mentality
42:09than it is the people
42:10who are throwing
42:12the accusations.
42:13They really can't help it.
42:14They're part of the movement,
42:15they're part of the framework.
42:16They don't know.
42:17It's just like
42:18the holy laughter.
42:19Once you're,
42:20once you're trained
42:20and manipulated
42:21to hate another person
42:22if they question,
42:24you're going to do it
42:25because that's what
42:25everybody else is doing.
42:27That's how it,
42:27that's how it works.
42:28You don't know
42:29any different.
42:30Yeah.
42:30If you could go back
42:31and give some advice
42:32to yourself
42:33whenever you were
42:34an early Christian
42:35and you were starting
42:36to become influenced
42:38by the shepherding thing,
42:39and give yourself
42:40some advice
42:41to help you through it,
42:42what advice
42:43would you give yourself?
42:44I'm going to be
42:45straight up honest with you.
42:48You were,
42:49you were born
42:51and brought up
42:51with the Pentecostal church
42:53and brandism.
42:57Being at my age now,
42:5972,
43:00going to Bible college,
43:02studying Bible,
43:04I studied Bible,
43:04I got a Bible
43:05right here next to me.
43:07And knowing everything
43:08I've been through,
43:09and knowing everything
43:10I probably would have
43:12went to some,
43:13some conservative
43:16Christian church
43:17and trying to use
43:19the word,
43:19avoid the word
43:20fundamentalist church
43:21because they go
43:22and do extremes.
43:24But something
43:25that will lead towards,
43:27gosh,
43:28I want to avoid
43:29you saying the word
43:29John MacArthur,
43:30but something
43:31that leans
43:32in a conservative way
43:33because,
43:36I guess I'm,
43:36I guess I'm driven
43:38to think that
43:38because,
43:39because of the
43:42extremes I've seen,
43:44I think I'm reading
43:44that book he read,
43:45I'm still going through it.
43:47And he mentions
43:48all this,
43:49a lot of things
43:49that you know
43:49I'm talking about.
43:51That book he wrote,
43:52The Charismatics.
43:53And he speaks
43:54so much truth.
43:55It's hard.
43:56It's really hard
43:56because my heart's
43:57been broken.
43:59You know,
43:59I have panic disorder.
44:00I don't have that now.
44:01It was years ago.
44:02But I went through
44:03so much pain,
44:04so much suffering.
44:05I had to see a psychiatrist,
44:06psychologist.
44:07It was all meds.
44:09I know people,
44:11I know a book author,
44:12it goes,
44:12book's right behind me,
44:13Confessions of a Bible Thumper.
44:16And he went into
44:18the mission field.
44:18He had a nervous breakdown.
44:21And he grew up,
44:22he was a Jesus person.
44:23His name is Michael Camp,
44:24I'll just say it.
44:26You can edit it out.
44:27Anyway,
44:27he's written three books.
44:30And he's just totally,
44:31he's just dropped out.
44:33And we're friends.
44:34I mean,
44:34I write to him,
44:36talk to him.
44:37I've done these,
44:38I did a Zoom with him.
44:40I took a course he gave.
44:42Now,
44:42I don't agree with that
44:43or everything he said now,
44:45but he was,
44:46he was foundational with me
44:49and helping me through
44:50a lot of things,
44:51a lot of deconstruction
44:52I had to do.
44:53Because I've read somewhere
44:54about where it was hard
44:56for you to go through
44:56deconstruction
44:57that you've had to do
44:59yourself,
45:00personally with brandism.
45:01That's the other thing
45:02I wanted to bring up
45:03before I leave this session.
45:06It was,
45:06Big Ten helped me
45:07three years ago.
45:09It was a three,
45:10when I first came here
45:11from Australia,
45:12it was in 2021
45:14or 2022,
45:16I discovered
45:17a thing on Spotify.
45:20It was a group of,
45:20a group of podcasts
45:23called
45:23I Was a Teenage Fundamentals.
45:26There was 115
45:27of these things
45:28done by two guys
45:30in Australia.
45:31And there were
45:32two Pentecostals
45:33involved in a
45:34Pentecostal church
45:35called Christian,
45:36Christian something church
45:38in Melbourne,
45:40Australia.
45:41And they
45:42went through
45:43all the stuff
45:43that you and I,
45:46they weren't,
45:47it was doctrinal
45:48more than just
45:48following a person.
45:49Like,
45:49if you follow
45:50William Brown,
45:52it's just doctrinal
45:53stuff and extremism.
45:55There's spoken word
45:56and some of the things
45:57that you get it,
45:59you get it,
45:59you and I have
46:00gone through.
46:01And of course,
46:02you know,
46:02they have gone out
46:03and they've gone
46:06to other things.
46:06They're just totally
46:07out of it.
46:07Just totally out
46:08and just use
46:10all kinds of,
46:11their talks are
46:13full of profanity
46:14and disgust.
46:16And, you know,
46:17but I can see
46:18where they come from.
46:19I mean,
46:20I don't approve
46:20of their behaviors
46:21and stuff,
46:21but who am I to judge?
46:23Who am I to judge
46:23their heart?
46:24God sees what's going on.
46:26And so,
46:26I mean,
46:27I like,
46:27I like,
46:28I've talked to these guys,
46:29I've written to them
46:30and I see exactly
46:32the hurt,
46:32the damage
46:33that's been done.
46:34Like you said,
46:34the psychological damage
46:35is immeasurable.
46:37It breaks my heart.
46:38That makes me so sad.
46:40Yeah.
46:41I don't know.
46:42You know,
46:43you must have had bad
46:44and talk to your wife
46:45and think about this.
46:47And talk this through
46:48and talk that through
46:49and look that script shot
46:51and what does it say
46:52in the Greek,
46:53but 10 different versions
46:54and it's hard
46:56when you've been taught
46:57something.
46:58And especially
46:59when it's the person
47:00that taught you
47:01is divinely appointed.
47:03So,
47:03you know,
47:03in your mind
47:04you're thinking that.
47:06I don't know
47:06how you break yourself
47:07with that.
47:07I mean,
47:08how do you do it?
47:10And you're doing it now.
47:12You're still doing it.
47:12It's not like
47:13you've got the limit of it,
47:13right?
47:14I don't know.
47:15I ain't been awesome.
47:16Tell me I'm wrong.
47:16Or say,
47:17Sam,
47:17shut up.
47:17It's a lot to process.
47:20I don't care who you are
47:21or how limited.
47:23I talked to one guy
47:24who was,
47:25he had only been
47:25in the movements for,
47:27I want to say
47:28it was something
47:28like five years.
47:30But it destroyed him
47:31mentally in the same way
47:33it destroyed somebody
47:33who I had also spoken
47:35with just a week prior
47:37who had been in it
47:37for 60 years.
47:39It really depends
47:41on how much
47:41you allow your mind
47:42to be compromised
47:43by these guys.
47:45And there's no limit
47:47to how much
47:47they will hijack your mind
47:49if you let them.
47:50You said five years?
47:51Five years.
47:52That's it.
47:53Five years.
47:54Compared to one guy
47:54who was 60 years.
47:55Yeah.
47:56But he,
47:57you know,
47:57the problem is
47:58the indoctrination,
47:59if you allow them
48:00to hijack your mind,
48:01they'll wreak havoc
48:02in your mind.
48:03The interesting part,
48:04it isn't so much
48:05the minister
48:06who is
48:07operating
48:09under the tactics
48:10of mind control
48:11that affect you.
48:12It's what's going on
48:13already in your head.
48:14If you already
48:15are struggling
48:16with various issues,
48:17then you combine
48:19that with this indoctrination.
48:20It's like a cycle
48:22that it's a,
48:23it spins out of control.
48:24It's the cycle
48:25that keeps growing
48:26faster and faster.
48:27And a lot of people
48:28have anxiety attacks
48:29because that anxiety
48:30is forming in the head.
48:32So the time
48:33doesn't really matter.
48:34But then trying
48:36to escape it
48:37the most difficult
48:39thing is
48:39you have to process it.
48:41And most people
48:41are afraid to process it
48:43because it is
48:43extremely painful.
48:45And if you don't process,
48:47then you build
48:48all of these memories
48:49in your head
48:49around what,
48:51this elephant
48:52that's in the room
48:53in your head.
48:54And it takes time
48:55to decompress that.
48:56The longer you go
48:57without addressing it,
48:58the more difficult
48:59it is to bring that out.
49:02So it's very good
49:03that people are talking
49:04and now many more people
49:05are speaking out
49:06against it.
49:06Are there any sites
49:08that you send people
49:08to on the internet
49:10these deconstructions?
49:13You know,
49:14I mean,
49:14I've gone to these places
49:15on Facebook
49:16and people go
49:18and mow them and whine
49:19and, well,
49:19I mean,
49:19what else are they going
49:20to do?
49:21Well,
49:21there's places to go to
49:22and they're talking
49:23about,
49:24and I can relate
49:25and you can relate
49:25to everything you're saying.
49:27But we're having
49:28this in-depth
49:29talking and I,
49:30I don't know,
49:31what am I trying
49:31to ask though?
49:32I guess,
49:33I don't know,
49:33have you,
49:33I guess what I'm
49:34trying to ask is,
49:35have you experienced
49:36places that you
49:38can search out
49:39that have been
49:40therapeutic to people?
49:42Yeah,
49:42every person is different.
49:43Like,
49:43so I process much
49:45differently than the next guy.
49:47The way that I process
49:48is I want the information.
49:50I want to know
49:50how did they do it
49:51to my head?
49:52I wanted to know
49:53why they do it
49:54to my head.
49:54What drove them
49:55to do it in my head?
49:57What was the environment
49:59that they were in
50:00that caused them to do it?
50:01I go to levels
50:03and extremes
50:03that most people don't.
50:04For me,
50:05that's therapeutic
50:05because I can understand
50:07why it happened,
50:09what happened exactly,
50:10and then you have
50:11to study a bit
50:12of psychology
50:12to understand
50:13what actually happened
50:14in your head.
50:15So for me,
50:16it's therapeutic
50:17for me to go
50:18and just read
50:19and research,
50:20and there isn't
50:20a single site for this.
50:22It's literally,
50:23if you consider
50:24the internet,
50:24it is the internet.
50:26It's all of it.
50:27It's every book.
50:27It's as many things
50:28as I can get my hand on.
50:30Yeah,
50:31as many things
50:32as I can get my hand on.
50:33Now,
50:33there are other people
50:34who don't process
50:36in the same way,
50:37and quite frankly,
50:39they're not.
50:39I have an analytical mind,
50:41and so people
50:42who don't have
50:43an analytical mind
50:44can't do this.
50:45They actually have
50:45to have a physical person,
50:47so they have to go
50:48through a therapist session,
50:49and it takes a few times
50:51of therapy,
50:51but they can also conquer it.
50:54But the therapy
50:54is basically,
50:55the therapist
50:56is working
50:57in the same way.
50:58It's helping them
50:58to process in their mind
51:00what happened
51:00to their mind.
51:01So I'm processing
51:03in my mind
51:04what has happened
51:04to their mind.
51:05They are as well.
51:06So I always recommend
51:07if you're not
51:08an analytical mind
51:09or you don't have
51:10access to information,
51:12go get help.
51:12It's the same thing
51:13as going to a doctor.
51:15If you injure yourself,
51:16if you cut your arm
51:18or whatever,
51:18you go to the doctor
51:19to get help.
51:20Well, in your head,
51:20it's the same way.
51:21You go to the doctor
51:22for your head.
51:23So very good
51:24to get help
51:25if you need it.
51:25But anyway,
51:26thank you so much
51:27for doing this.
51:28This has been
51:28incredibly fun.
51:29I enjoyed it.
51:30I enjoyed it.
51:31One last thing.
51:33Was there any other people
51:34besides Bram
51:35from the Bram thinking?
51:39Maybe another associate
51:40of his
51:40or assistant pastor
51:41that influenced you
51:45differently
51:46than the way he did?
51:47You have to understand
51:48the way that
51:49the indoctrination works,
51:50even though everybody
51:51has a direct implant
51:53of the cult leader
51:55or the central figure's
51:56personality
51:57and doctrinal beliefs,
51:59because no central figure
52:02can be always consistent
52:04on their beliefs.
52:05One person
52:06will be indoctrinated
52:07with exactly
52:08what the central figure said,
52:10but it won't match
52:12the other person
52:13who is indoctrinated.
52:14So this gets really interested
52:15when you think
52:16of a pyramid tier
52:17of a cult.
52:18You have the central figure
52:19at the top
52:20where you have
52:20all of these enforcers,
52:22I call them,
52:23this middle tier.
52:25And here's me,
52:26the rank and file member.
52:27Well, the enforcers,
52:28they're enforcing
52:29in the way
52:30that their mind
52:31is programmed,
52:32not in the way
52:33that the cult leader
52:34wants them to project.
52:36So what they project
52:37is always different.
52:39I was influenced
52:39by people,
52:40a wide variety of people.
52:42Some of them actually
52:42was very solid influence.
52:44Some of the things
52:45that was trained
52:46in my head
52:47are very good things,
52:49but there was always
52:50that bad seed
52:50that was in it.
52:52And if you understood
52:53how deadly
52:54that bad seed was,
52:55you'd reject
52:56the whole thing.
52:57It wasn't until
52:58I discovered
52:59that this is a cult,
53:00this is very destructive,
53:02that I began
53:03to start processing that.
53:04But yes,
53:05simple answer is
53:06I was affected
53:07by a lot of people,
53:08and I think most
53:09people in a cult are.
53:11Excellent.
53:12But thank you so much
53:13for doing this.
53:14You're quite welcome,
53:15brother.
53:15If you've enjoyed our show
53:16and you want more information,
53:18you can check us out
53:18on the web.
53:19You can find us
53:20at william-branham.org.
53:21For more about
53:22the dark side
53:23of the new apostolic
53:24reformation,
53:25you can read
53:25Weaponized Religion
53:26from Christian Identity
53:27to the NAR,
53:29available on Amazon,
53:30Kindle,
53:31and Audible.
53:31Thank you so much,
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