Has Amit Shah silenced Opposition on vote chori? Experts weigh in

1 day ago

Union Home Minister Amit Shah addressed the Lok Sabha, countering the Opposition's 'vote chori' (vote theft) allegations and claims of irregularities in Haryana's voter lists. Shah stated the Opposition resists the Special Intensive Revision (SIR) of electoral rolls to protect infiltrators, prompting a walkout. The debate on electoral reforms also featured former Chief Election Commissioner Dr. S.Y. Quraishi, who advocated for a national election fund to control money power, and Lok Satta founder Jayaprakash Narayan, who argued for proportional representation. This special report also covers the deepening crisis at IndiGo airlines, with the DGCA summoning CEO Peter Elbers following mass flight cancellations and ordering the airline to curtail its schedule. Additionally, the program reports on the tragic Goa nightclub fire at Birch by Romeo Lane that claimed 25 lives, with an investigation into the cause underway as the co-owners have reportedly moved for bail.

Transcript

00:00Hello and welcome once again to the news today, your prime time destination news, newsmakers,

00:05talking points, news without the noise. Let's tell you what our big talking point this Wednesday

00:10night is. It comes from Parliament where Home Minister Amit Shah versus Leader of the Opposition

00:15Rahul Gandhi no holds back battle on vote chori allegations. Has Amit Shah silenced the opposition

00:22or not on vote chori? Also, our continuing focus on Indigo Airlines, the DGCA's fix for Indigo

00:29will it work or is it too little too late? We'll have plenty on all those stories but first as always

00:35it's time for the nine headlines at nine. The debate on electoral reforms ends in the Lok Sabha

00:42Amit's acrimony. Opposition walks out after Home Minister Amit Shah says vote chori charges are an

00:49attempt to protect infiltrators. A heated exchange between Shah and Rahul Gandhi dominates the proceedings.

00:59Delhi High Court comes down hard on the centre over the Indigo crisis. Asked how did the government

01:06allow airlines to charge exorbitant prices that hit consumers? DGCA summons CEO of Indigo,

01:14Peter Albers, again tomorrow.

01:18Fugitive Luthra brothers file an anticipatory bail plea in the High Court after the fire at their Goa

01:25club killed 25 people. Their partner Ajay Gupta is arrested. Bombay High Court pulls up the police

01:35for protecting Ajit Pawar's son, not naming him in the Pune multi-crore alleged land scam.

01:41A Nirbhaya-like horror in Gujarat's Raj Court. A minor girl brutally assaulted survives an attempt to rape.

01:50The accused allegedly inserted a rod in her private part. He's been arrested.

01:57The Karnataka SIT exposes an alleged Dharmastala plot as a manufactured narrative. Investigators say

02:05the entire mass burial charges were leveled to defame the Temple administration.

02:12U.S. Trade Representative Jameson Greer in India for Trade Dialogue says the talks with India are fairly far advanced.

02:22Says India is a tough nut to crack.

02:25After Microsoft, Amazon now set to increase its India investment to over $35 billion by 2013.

02:32The investment will focus on AI-driven digitization, export growth and job creation.

02:39And no relief for Raj Kundra and Shilpa Shetty in a fraud case.

02:43Court demands 60 crore rupees deposit orders the full amount to be deposited if the couple wants to go abroad.

02:50But our top story tonight, where we've seen today one of the most fierce debates that parliament has witnessed in recent times.

03:04Home Minister Amit Shah in a no-holds-barred attack on the opposition and Rahul Gandhi in particular at the conclusion of the electoral reforms debate.

03:15Mr. Shah rejected the charge that the opposition has been consistently making of vote chori or vote theft.

03:22He also expressed confidence in the ongoing special intensive revision exercise across the country.

03:29The opposition walked out, particularly when Mr. Shah claimed that the opposition was against the revision of the electoral rolls because they wanted to protect ghuspetias or infiltrators.

03:41It was a debate that showed just how polarized parliament can become at times.

03:48It's going to be our top focus.

03:50Do we really need electoral reforms or not?

03:53Take a look at first what happened in the Lok Sabha today.

03:57Speaker Sir, my last question was my last question, which was the first decision decision that the election commissioners will give full immunity.

04:16A people will show education.

04:18Right.

04:20I haven't completed its deeds after that.

04:23The thinking that that the people's been asked for, the ones we have strongly.

04:25Above that it , Local lie.

04:27One question is not them, the other, taking certain parteward, these people have made out,

04:34they are in charge for the direction in other nations,

04:38Actually, let us have a debate on my press conference.

04:53Let us go.

04:54Let us have a very good idea.

04:57Let us have a debate on my press conferences.

04:59Amishan ji, I challenge you to have a debate on the three press conferences.

05:05foreign

05:11foreign

05:19foreign

05:29I want to speak to my first time.

05:34I want to speak to my 30 years.

05:39I want to speak to my own.

05:42I want to speak to my own.

05:47The people say to me,

05:50I want to listen to my own.

05:53My own mind will not go out.

05:56I will do the same thing.

05:59I will do the same thing.

06:02Mind, mind, mind,

06:05they should keep their answers.

06:08They should keep their answers.

06:11I will give them one-one answer.

06:14But my soul will not do that.

06:18I will do it because I am saying it.

06:26Rahul Gandhi Ji,

06:305 November 2025,

06:34a press conference in a press conference.

06:38And he said,

06:42that in Haryana,

06:47in one house,

06:49501 watts.

06:51He said,

06:53that the house number,

06:57265,

06:59there is no place.

07:01There is no place.

07:03There is no place.

07:05But here,

07:07there is no place.

07:09Every neighborhood,

07:11there is no number.

07:13All the houses,

07:15all the houses,

07:16501.

07:17And one neighborhood,

07:193 people,

07:20there is no place.

07:21And when the whole number,

07:23the whole number,

07:25when Congress was in Congress,

07:27the whole number was still running.

07:29This is no number,

07:31there is no house,

07:33no water,

07:34this is no house.

07:35We will be talking about 200 times, we will also talk about one of our NDA's policies.

07:57I never detect, I mean, look at it, delete it, don't forget it, cut it in the name, and then deport it.

08:08We will do the same process by detecting, delete, and deport it.

08:16I've been talking about the government of the country.

08:21Look at this.

08:24If I have so many views on Sri Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi, his father, Sonia Ji, then he was running away.

08:37He ran away from the government, because our policy is to delete and deport it.

08:46His policy is to normalize the GUSPET.

08:49After that, take advantage of it.

08:52And put it in the law and formalize it.

08:58We have kept the points.

09:00We have not given the answer.

09:02We are talking about one example.

09:04It is a completely defensive response.

09:06Look at it.

09:08There were several things.

09:09I said, give everyone a transparent voter list.

09:13I didn't say anything about it.

09:15I said, give everyone an EVM architecture.

09:19I didn't say anything about it.

09:21I didn't say anything about it.

09:23I said that BJP is giving votes in Haryana and Bihar.

09:27I didn't say anything about it.

09:29I didn't say anything about it.

09:32Okay, after that big face-off in parliament, let's raise the big questions on the news today.

09:37Has Home Minister Amit Shah silenced the opposition on the charge of vote-chori and collusion with the Election Commission?

09:44Is there an urgent need still for electoral reforms?

09:47Is SIR essential for cleaning up electoral rolls?

09:52Is the Home Minister justified in raising the infiltrator bogie as he did?

09:57And must the EC open itself to greater scrutiny?

10:00I'll look at the reforms part later with two experts.

10:03But I want to first look at the contentious issue of the Home Minister's attack on the opposition.

10:10Joining me now, Manikam Tagore.

10:12He is the whip of the Congress in the Lok Sabha.

10:14He's a member of parliament.

10:15And Tuhin Sina, BJP's national spokesperson.

10:18I want to come to you first, Manikam Tagore.

10:21It seemed that the Home Minister was making his point very clear.

10:25He says the Congress is a sore loser and therefore is choosing to blame vote-chori.

10:33When you win, everything is fine.

10:35When you lose, you claim the Election Commission is in collusion with the BJP.

10:40How do you respond to that fundamental attack that the Home Minister made on the opposition today in parliament?

10:47Thank you Rajdeep.

10:50The main issue is that this debate is a discussion on the electoral reforms.

10:55The discussion for electoral reforms started yesterday at 12 o'clock in the noon.

11:00And till like 6 o'clock yesterday.

11:02And today it's continued from 10 o'clock and 5 o'clock the Honourable Home Minister replied.

11:08Leader of opposition intervened yesterday.

11:11And Manish Tiwari ji opened the whole debate itself.

11:14Whatever the opposition was asking for it.

11:16Opposition was asking for reforms.

11:18We wanted that election commission, election reforms are needed.

11:24Therefore, we were giving ideas to the government.

11:27The election commission and the process, all other details that put by around 40-45 parties has put their ideas together.

11:37Leader of opposition gave four big ideas to that.

11:40But one by one, Mr. Manish Shah, when he spoke, he rejected all the ideas.

11:45He wanted to keep the election process the same.

11:49He feels that there is no reforms needed in this election process.

11:53Therefore, the problem is that Mr. Manish Shah's thinking is that status quo should be maintained.

11:59Therefore, he was giving different logics and others.

12:01It is his way of making his argument.

12:05But we were expecting that we were...

12:07No, no, he says...

12:08No, no, Mr. Tagore.

12:10Mr. Tagore.

12:11Mr. Tagore.

12:12Mr. Tagore.

12:13He says the status quo should be maintained because he says, as I quoted at the outset,

12:17that when the opposition wins a particular state, including Congress, you have no problem with the election commission or the EVMs, is what he claimed.

12:25Your problems come when you lose.

12:27You are not willing to introspect, he says.

12:29You are blaming vote chori without adequate proof, is what he claimed.

12:34And that there is nothing wrong with the electoral rolls in the manner in which the opposition is claiming there is.

12:41And even if there is, the SIR exercise is going on.

12:45That's the problem with Mr. Manish Shah, because the debate itself is for reforms.

12:50The discussion is on the...

12:52If you see the business of the House, it says that discussion on election reforms.

12:58It clearly states that thing.

13:00When the Home Ministry is not ready for reforms, and he is ready to protect whatever, say, whatever it is right, whatever it is happening.

13:09These kind of words, it is very unfortunate, because we have to understand it.

13:13Where the vote chori has started now?

13:15The talk of vote chori started after the Maharashtra elections, and Karnataka Parliament elections.

13:22The Parliament elections just concluded in 2024, one year before, when the BJP from 303 was reduced to 440, which wanted to have 370 numbers.

13:34They wanted to have 370 for them.

13:37They wanted to have 370.

13:40Their target, Mr. Modi in the House promised, when I was in their house, he promised that they are going to win 370 seats alone, and charge of power for NDA.

13:50That was their target in 2024 before elections.

13:55What people made them?

13:56People made them to be 240.

13:58From 370, their target was 370, they were 303, and people gave them 240.

14:06They were able to, that 240 itself, we feel that there is a complete vote chori has happened.

14:12Mahadevapura election was a model for which, how fake voters, all this kind of double voting, all this process has been done.

14:22For that only, Mr. Rahul Gandhi had press conference on Mahadevapura.

14:26He put out the facts.

14:28Then came the Haryana election, then came the Maharashtra elections.

14:31We came out with some facts.

14:33Then we wanted to show that there is a vote chori happening.

14:37Kindly let us reform.

14:38Let us fix this thing.

14:40This country needs the right of the vote to be protected.

14:43That was our aim.

14:45Mr. Amisha took it totally into a different line.

14:48You know, you are saying he took it at, you know, Tuhin Sina.

14:54Let me spell out the reforms.

14:56Just a minute, sir.

14:57Let me spell out Tuhin Sina, the reforms that Rahul Gandhi spoke on.

15:00He spoke, for example, on providing machine readable voter lists one month before the election to all the political parties.

15:07The election commission has refused that.

15:11He wants the CCTV footage to be available not just for 45 days.

15:16It should be available right through.

15:17Why only for 45 days?

15:19Why should the election commission have complete immunity from any prosecution?

15:23Now, Mr. Amit Shah answered some of these.

15:26He didn't answer the machine readable voter list.

15:29But the seeming belief is sab changa hai.

15:32All is well.

15:33So you've got the Congress claiming vote chori and you've got the BJB claiming all is well.

15:38Is there no middle ground?

15:40Should a system not look at some of these reforms at least Tuhin?

15:43Good evening.

15:44Well, good evening, Rajdeep.

15:48Good evening, everybody.

15:49You know, I'm going to address all of these issues.

15:52But before I even come to that, you know, I'm quite appalled by the logic of Mr. Tagore,

15:58who seems who has proved with his arguments that he's a true disciple of Rahul Gandhi.

16:02He says, you know, because we were claiming 370, we would win 370 seats.

16:07But our final tally was 240, which would not have been 240 any which way there is vote chori.

16:13What kind of argument is this?

16:14I mean, he's a seasoned member of parliament.

16:16He should come up with more cogent arguments.

16:18Now, coming to reforms.

16:20Let me just, you know, pinpoint three crucial reforms which have been undertaken in the last three in the last 11 years.

16:27VVPAT was notified by Election Commission of India on 14th August 2014 as an add-on to EVM.

16:33Enhanced voter IDs linking with Aadhaar card.

16:37Today, 65 crore voter IDs are linked with Aadhaar card.

16:40Online voter registration has been taken up on a very large scale.

16:43So these are crucial reforms.

16:45Of course, long term reforms can be taken over a period of time.

16:49But again, coming to the fallacious, the malefied charges of Rahul Gandhi.

16:54Why is CCTV footage not available beyond 45 days?

16:58This was a rule which has come.

17:00Forget CCTV footage.

17:02This was a rule which has existed since the 1950s that beyond 45 days, any election verdict cannot be challenged in the Supreme Court.

17:12So by an extension of that logic, the footage need not exist.

17:16My point is, why does the Congress party wait for 45 days and start, you know, alleging vote chowri on or start reaching out to the start filing complaints on the 46th day?

17:27For example, it's been 28 days since the results of the Bihar election came out.

17:32Barring the frivolous allegations of vote chowri, which they've always leveled, have they filed even one official complaint with regard to any of the results?

17:41They have not.

17:42So it's a mischievous intent of this Congress party.

17:44And I'm glad Honorable Home Minister has called it out with facts on every particular issue.

17:50Let me, let me just, let me just make one fact check.

17:56The, it was a specific decision by the election commission that after 45 days, the CCTV footage will not be available.

18:03That is a decision that was taken by them post the Haryana election.

18:07That's a fact.

18:08Now, I want to bring you Manikam Tagore because in, in what Tuhin Sina says, there may be a point.

18:13But it's an extension.

18:14You see, the Congress, no, no, one minute.

18:18Sir, just a minute.

18:20You know, I'm only stating the fact.

18:22The fact is the election commission moved a specific, sir, the, sir, the election commission moved a specific order.

18:28You're right that you have to move a complaint within 45 days.

18:31If you move the complaint, then the footage remains.

18:33But an order was moved.

18:35My only question, therefore, to you, Manikam Tagore, is the fact is that you've got, first you blame the EVMs.

18:44Then EVMs does not become an issue.

18:46It becomes electoral rolls that the mass scale fake voters and duplicate voters are there.

18:52Now, when the SIR exercise is taking place, there is a belief that SIR exercise is being used to weed out specific voters.

18:59The goalposts seem to change.

19:01I want to complete clarity from you.

19:04Earlier, we used to have boot capturing that took place also.

19:07It's not as if before 2014, before the BJP took over, there were no irregularities in elections.

19:13My point is, I want to understand, why only now are you convinced that there is vote chori?

19:21I didn't hear this word in 2024 during the general elections when you all won 99 seats.

19:26Nobody told me, vote chori is the BJP 240 seats.

19:31Exactly.

19:32That's a very good question.

19:33Because it all started from Maharashtra and Haryana.

19:37The way the parliament elections, how they badly, more or less, they lost the elections.

19:42They were able to, from 303, BJP lost a single party to 240.

19:47And with the alliance partners, three, four of them had formed this government.

19:52Therefore, people has more or less rejected Mr. Modi in 2024.

19:56But, but, can you hear me?

20:02Go ahead.

20:03Yeah.

20:04The, the, the main story, the main issue is that they are the, we were able to analyze those

20:11datas because machine readable, uh, water list was the main important thing.

20:16We found that there is some kind of thing which is happening with the water list, water list.

20:21Therefore, machine readable, uh, water list was asked.

20:25And we had been thinking, we, we approached the election commission after the Haryana defeat.

20:30Then Maharashtra defeat was also a different thing.

20:33Then we thought that when parliament, the same result and assembly results in six months,

20:37what miracle has happened in this thing?

20:39People rejected the BJP in Haryana and Maharashtra, but they voted in assembly.

20:43What happened to that?

20:45They, they gave a diversion that gave, they gave some direct benefit stories and others.

20:49But the, the, the, the match was different.

20:52Therefore, only there was a mismatch between the number and the real thing.

20:55Therefore, only when we digged in, there were some, a lot of evidences came up.

21:00Mr. Rawal Gandhiji had a press conference on Madhya Vapra, the Khadataka, Bangaloo central seat.

21:07And then he, uh, Haryana also, he had a, the same, uh, side of press conference.

21:14So are you, sir, that cannot become, so are you telling me the entire voter lists are contaminated and they were only contaminated after the 2024 elections?

21:25Are you telling me post 2024 election, the list suddenly got contaminated?

21:29Is that what the charge is now?

21:31No.

21:32Until then, everything was okay.

21:34We are, we are saying that there is a pattern.

21:36There is a new pattern evolving through these kind of, uh, election manipulations.

21:42Every time, Rajdeep, you had been a journalist for long years.

21:45There was a time for booth capturing.

21:48There was in the nineties, there was booth capturing happening.

21:51Now we can't, you can't capture a booth now.

21:54Therefore, the story has changed.

21:55The goalposts, the model of Chori has changed.

21:58Therefore, we need to understand that in a new world in 21st century, we need to fix this problem.

22:05Therefore, only we asked for a discussion on electoral reforms.

22:08We were not asking for a vote Chori discussion.

22:10Sir, but now the government, sir, government is saying that.

22:13Sir, government is saying we have brought.

22:15No, no, no.

22:16Mr. Manikam Taghor, government is saying that's why we have brought SIR.

22:19Because the opposition says there are irregularities in voter rolls.

22:22We are bringing SIR.

22:23But the opposition objects to that also says Amit Shah.

22:25He says, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

22:28That's a good thing.

22:29But Mr. Amit Shah mentioned from 1950, 60, 70, 80, 2002.

22:36He went on saying about SIR.

22:38When SIR happened?

22:40Every SIR happened for six months.

22:42Every SIR in that time happened six months.

22:45When the elections were not there.

22:47If you remember 2005 elections, when Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh election, Arnachal elections were announced, SIR was stopped.

22:57Because they don't want to do with the SIR exercise for the elections.

23:02You need to give people their time to register again in the SIR process.

23:08What we are saying is these people are clubbing Yaneshwar Kumar and their team and the gang of people who are operating in the election commission are just changing that whole thing.

23:19They are elections before two months they are bringing in SIR.

23:22They are bringing in SIR.

23:23Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Assam elections, Bengal elections, before three months they are bringing in SIR.

23:28You are saying the SIR, you have no objection to SIR, but you have objection to the haste with which the SIR is being brought just before the election.

23:38Exactly, exactly.

23:40Amit Shah towards the end said that this SIR exercise is designed or the opposition does not want SIR because the opposition wants Ghospatya voters or infiltrators.

23:57Can the Home Ministry or indeed anyone tell me how many Ghospatyas have been found in this SIR exercise?

24:03Why suddenly the SIR, why suddenly bring in Ghospatyas into it without proof?

24:07Bihar has had a full SIR.

24:09We asked the election commission how many Ghospatya, they are not able to give an answer.

24:13Focus, this country wants clean electoral rolls.

24:17Why bring in Ghospatya every time?

24:19That's your politics then.

24:20You missed out, Radeep, you missed out a big confession, you know, which Mr. Tagore just made.

24:29He confessed that Ghospatya used to happen in the 1990s through both capturing.

24:34Yes, I must compliment him for this because we saw that in 1987 in Kashmir.

24:38We saw that in 1995 in Bihar and 2000 in Bihar when 1500 repents were ordered.

24:44Answer my question on Ghospatya.

24:45Of course, I'm coming to that.

24:46You know, it is not the job.

24:48Of course, it is not the job of the election commission to identify illegal migrants.

24:54It is the job of the election commission to ensure that no illegal voter votes.

24:59Subsequently, it is the task of the local administration.

25:02Then it is the job of the Home Ministry.

25:03Can the Home Ministry tell us how many illegal migrants?

25:07When this question was asked from the Home Ministry in the parliament, they are not able

25:12to tell us how many Ghospatya.

25:14It's work in progress.

25:15That is work in progress because like I said, the first part of the job is done.

25:21Illegal voters have been identified.

25:23Now, it is for the local law-enforcing agencies to get into the verification of papers and figure

25:29out which among these are illegal migrants and weed them out.

25:32But let me assure you, we are very serious about illegal migrants, whether it is Santhal

25:37Parganas in Jharkhand, whether it is Simanchal in Bihar.

25:40All of these will finally be identified and weeded out.

25:44So, you know, the leeway which Congress government used to provide, the days of that is over.

25:51But just one last point, you know, Mr. Tagore was asking, Mr. Tagore was asking, was saying

25:57there is a pattern in these results nowadays.

26:00Of course, yes, there is a pattern.

26:02And I will tell you what the pattern is.

26:04The people of this country have begun to punish the Congress party.

26:07They have really begun to punish the Congress party for its negative, for its fly-by-night

26:12operating style, for its hoot-and-school, you know, for its, you know, wild allegations

26:16which they are not able to substantiate.

26:18And for their habit of blaming the constitutional bodies and institutions without any logic,

26:24without any reason.

26:25They are punishing this Congress party.

26:27Okay, I will give Manikam Tagore exactly 30 seconds to respond to that.

26:34Manikam Tagore, in all of this, let's assume that there are question marks over electoral

26:39roles.

26:40But will there be question marks over the way you all also run your campaigns, be it in

26:44Maharashtra, be it in Haryana, be it in Bihar?

26:46Or is the Congress not going to introspect on its own failings?

26:49A quick final answer.

26:50No, we need to understand that we wanted an electoral reforms discussion.

26:56The electoral reforms idea has been rejected.

27:00And vote jury, Mr. Amisha was explaining about, he has not done vote jury.

27:05It has become one and a half hours he was explaining about, he has not done vote jury.

27:09That is the whole speech to us for his explanation.

27:13We, we reject that speech.

27:16We feel that he is not ready for reform.

27:18No, that's because you have been attacking.

27:20No, no, let's be.

27:21No, no, no, sir.

27:22Because you have been, Mr. Tagore, you have been attacking the home minister for the last

27:27several months now, saying that is vote jury, saying that the government is in collusion

27:32with the election commission.

27:33He is entitled to respond to that.

27:35You are having press conference after press conference saying vote jury.

27:39Why should he not then respond to you?

27:41He has the right to do so.

27:43We came for, Rajdeep, we came for a discussion on electoral reforms.

27:46We were not, Mr. Rahul Gandhiji spoke about vote jury in his speech.

27:51Go to the speech.

27:52Here, is there any word he used at vote jury?

27:55Whether Manish Tiwari used the word vote jury?

27:58Whether KC Venugopal used the word vote jury?

28:01No.

28:02We speak for ideas for electoral reforms.

28:05Okay.

28:06Amisha came for a clarification that I have not done vote jury.

28:09Okay.

28:10One month of hours, he was explaining about vote jury.

28:15Okay.

28:16Okay.

28:17Let me leave it there.

28:18We've heard two sides to the story and there are two sides to this story in particular.

28:22And I think that parliament debate showed that.

28:25That you've got a government which seems to believe that when, that they, in a sense, are winning because the people want them.

28:34And you've got the opposition which seems convinced that something is wrong with our election process.

28:40And the government.

28:41No.

28:42No, sir.

28:43I've run out of time.

28:44The government is in collusion with the BJP.

28:45But I'll give you with the ECIF.

28:4730 seconds.

28:48Two inches and a half.

28:49Just 30 seconds.

28:50Rajdeep, imagine at the end of this debate, Mr. Tagore is saying we never came to discuss vote jury.

28:59You know, this, this shows that they have no ground, you know, I mean, they have been battered in this discussion.

29:04They have been, they have been ripped apart left, right and center with facts.

29:08They never came to discuss vote jury.

29:10Of course, this was the allegation which Rahul Gandhi has been leveling for the last four months ad nauseam.

29:14And today they are saying they didn't want to discuss vote jury.

29:17Well, this shows that this is the end of the matter.

29:19Well, Rahul Gandhi also suggested they were just whole winking and misleading the country.

29:23We came for reforms.

29:26Okay.

29:27Well, Rahul Gandhi also suggested specific reforms.

29:30Okay.

29:31You said you came for reforms.

29:32Sir.

29:33Okay.

29:34That reflects in a way to use that have come in this debate.

29:37I appreciate, I appreciate both of you joining me.

29:40Thank you very much to Insina and Manikam Tagore.

29:43Let's move on.

29:44Okay.

29:45So we've heard from the politicians.

29:47Let's now hear from those who've spent a long time of their careers looking at electoral reforms.

29:54Did this parliament debate address those reforms?

29:57Joining me now are Dr.

29:59S.Y.

30:00Qureshi, former chief election commissioner and Jay Prakash Narayan, who is the founder of Lok

30:05Sakta, a group that looked to clean up politics.

30:08Thank you both very much for joining me.

30:11I want to turn to you, Dr. Qureshi, first.

30:13Do you believe that there are important reforms that need to be initiated outside this terribly polarized debate on vote

30:22that can actually strengthen public faith in the election commission and indeed in the idea of free and fair elections?

30:30Yes, indeed.

30:32The election commission itself has been proposing reforms over a period of time almost for three decades.

30:38Almost 100 reform proposals are pending with the government.

30:42And one or two reforms with government is now attempting like simultaneous election.

30:46It's not the kind of reform that we were demanding.

30:49But the reforms which are long felt are not being addressed.

30:54And first of which would be controlling the role of money power.

30:59Give me an example.

31:00Give me an example.

31:01Yes, I'm telling you.

31:03The first and most important reform that we need is a reform of controlling the abuse of money in the election.

31:11Because money is playing havoc with the election.

31:14And there has been a proposal that corporate funding should be banned because there is no free lunch.

31:20If they give you crores, they want something in return like a license or a contract or even a bank loan with which they run away to the UK.

31:28So, therefore, you know, controlling the money power is the first thing.

31:31And the solution has been on the table for a long time that let there be a national election fund

31:37to which the corporates can donate without really bothering whom it will be addressed to.

31:45And from the election fund, the election commission or an independent body can distribute that fund on the basis of your electoral performance.

31:57That is one.

31:58Can I take that to Jay Prakash Narayan?

32:01Because in this entire debate, Jay Prakash Narayan, that went on for two days in parliament on electoral reforms,

32:08the role of money power, which has become staggering.

32:11I've met candidates in some states who say they've spent 50 crores, 60 crores on Vidant Sabha elections.

32:18Now, given the scale of the money involved, do you think this was the question that should be squarely addressed?

32:25Or this is a question too close to the bone, particularly for those who get elected on money power?

32:32Thank you, Rajdeep. It's a great question. You know, there are two broad issues here. One is the conduct of election.

32:41The second is the political crisis we created ourselves with money power and entry barriers.

32:49Unfortunately, much of the political debate in parliament and outside is all about the conduct of election, which actually is pretty good.

32:56I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's as good as it can be it's being improved.

33:01Mr. Qureshi, many other chief election commissioners, election commissioners, then and now they've been doing their best.

33:06So the problem is not with the ballot box or polling booth or electoral rolls, though there are some improvements required.

33:13The real challenge is the entry barriers, the party autocracy, who is the candidate chosen?

33:19What is the role that the members of the party or the people have in that?

33:23The best citizens are repelled to join politics because money power.

33:27I disagree with Mr. Qureshi about his understanding of money power.

33:31The problem of money power is not corporate funding or individual funding for legitimate political campaign.

33:37That is 70 lakh rupees or 1 crore rupees per Lok Sabha, 28 lakhs or 30 lakhs per assembly.

33:42It's peanuts. That's not the real issue. As I said rightly, the 40-50 crores are spent, what for?

33:48Not for campaigning. It is for vote buying and inducements.

33:52Both parties, the major parties are spreading that inducement across the electorate.

33:57Typically in the state where I'm sitting now in Telangana, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu,

34:01in an assembly constituency, one and a half to two lakh, voters are distributed, depending on the party,

34:06500 rupees, 1,000 rupees, sometimes 2,000 rupees, 3,000 rupees.

34:11Now, without that ability to spend money or without the willingness to spend money…

34:15But how do you change that? How do you change that?

34:19This does not change…

34:20But how do you change that? You see, we all know, we all know what the devil in the room is.

34:24How do you change it?

34:25Great question. Great question.

34:27No, this cannot be addressed by technical fixes, or by routine law, and by punishing people,

34:33putting them in jail, because everybody is now in cahoots.

34:36You know, in many states now, if people do not get the money before the election,

34:41if the money is not distributed, they're publicly saying we'll work out the poor.

34:45And television cameras were noticing it. So the problem is systemic, not legal.

34:49No, how do you address this? The only short-term way of addressing is change the electoral system.

34:55Why is the money power so important? Parties are desperate to get the marginal vote.

35:00The political party may get 30-40% vote if it's a serious contender for power.

35:06But the winning margin comes from your ability to gather the vote because of the candidate and the money power.

35:12What is happening is, if you distribute money, then you're taken to be in serious contention.

35:17If you don't distribute money, there's no chance of getting elected in 99 out of 100 cases.

35:21People are pretty clear about it.

35:23And therefore, money power has become an immense barrier.

35:26Parties, there's no point blaming them and accusing them.

35:28They are now victims of a vicious cycle.

35:30If you move towards a system where the voting percentage is rewarded,

35:34not the particular number of votes in a territorial constituency,

35:38some form of proportional representation, but with caveats.

35:42Ensure stability, there are ways of doing it.

35:44Ensure that there's no fragmentation, there are ways of doing it.

35:46If you do those two things, without upsetting the system or the stability,

35:51you can remove the entry barrier, get the best elected.

35:54A Manmohan Singh, an Arun Jaitley and many other good people are not electable in our system.

35:59They are coming through the upper houses.

36:01Whereas the people electability, a bridge portion or somebody else,

36:04I have nothing against an individual.

36:06We all know that they are not desirable in politics and governors,

36:09and yet without them the parties cannot win.

36:11That situation must be altered by electoral system change.

36:14You know, you're in a way talking about radical reform,

36:21which from time to time is mentioned in seminar rooms,

36:24but the politicians will seem to prefer, or many of them at least seem to prefer,

36:29first pass the post because they benefit from it.

36:31You agree with that, Dr. Qureshi, that that also needs to be one of the key debates in parliament.

36:38It's all very well to talk about electoral reforms in the context of alleged vote chori.

36:42You're not going to change anything unless you dramatically change the system.

36:45Now you've got Jaiprakash Narayan Singh,

36:48look at proportional representation more seriously.

36:51If you really want to control money power,

36:53it will reduce some of the entry barriers into politics.

36:56Well, I agree partly with Jaiprakash Narayan.

37:01Of course, when I mentioned one point about the electoral fund,

37:05it is only part of the problem and part of the solution.

37:08He has opened up many other issues, which are all very legitimate and genuine,

37:13and about the electoral system of first pass the post and proportional representation.

37:18Initially, I was the votary of first pass the post system.

37:22When I wrote my first book for an undocumented wonder,

37:25the making of the great Indian election,

37:27I batted for first pass the post system after discussing all the system.

37:32But when my third edition came after the 2014 election,

37:36I openly confessed that my conclusion was wrong and I'm changing my opinion.

37:41And this was based on a real life experience.

37:43And what was that?

37:45In UP, Mayawati's party got 20% vote share and zero seats.

37:50Now that is not real representative electoral democracy.

37:5420% of the voters have no voice in the parliament.

37:59That is when I have been saying that a mixed system,

38:02which was originally practiced in Germany,

38:06but has been adopted even in Asia and Sri Lanka.

38:09In more recently, Nepal, they have a mixed system that half the or 60% of the voters have passed the post.

38:16The other half are based on the number or the percentage of votes that you get.

38:22I think that is a system on which a serious debate is required.

38:25So more and more people are now talking about it, but no serious debate has yet started.

38:30And I wish it can start after this program.

38:33You know, it's interesting that you're saying this.

38:39I hope someone is listening.

38:40This is where we are coming to the more constructive part of the debate on electoral reform.

38:45Jay Prakash Narayan, is there any other reform besides proportional representation

38:49that you think will ensure a more level playing field?

38:52I keep using this word level playing field.

38:54I get a sense that politics today, in the way elections are fought,

38:58is not a level playing field at all.

39:00How do you ensure a level playing field?

39:02Yes, Rajdeep, before coming to that, just one point about proportional representation.

39:06You mentioned it's a radical reform.

39:08Actually, it's a very simple reform.

39:10The constitution provided for that.

39:12Nowhere in the constitution does it say they must be first past the post system

39:17with single member constituencies.

39:19It is what we created by practice.

39:22Dr. Ambedkar very carefully put it in the constitution to say that,

39:27the constituencies will divide in such a manner that the number of seats allocated to each constituency

39:34will be proportionate to the population.

39:36It is seats, not one seat of a territorial constituency.

39:41Because we are used to Westminster model, we are Anglo-centric.

39:44We don't think of anything else in the world.

39:46Therefore, we simply adopted that.

39:48Now, therefore, technically it's a very simple thing.

39:51Provided, let me again reiterate, I know there are genuine fears of instability with proportionality.

39:56There are ways of overcoming instability by giving bonuses to the largest party,

40:01both at the national and state level.

40:03There are genuine fears of fragmentation.

40:05We can't allow all fringe elements to be represented.

40:08Therefore, a reasonable threshold level to meet, so that they don't simply come and mess up the political system.

40:13Now, other reforms, political parties, you know, parties mediate the whole politics and democracy.

40:21And if parties are autocratic, how can you run democracy?

40:24Because without parties, let's be truthful.

40:26Technically, you can contest, you can have all kinds of things.

40:29But in reality, without political parties outside of Switzerland, there's no single instance where democracy is managed.

40:36They are the platforms of a people's participation.

40:39And yet, they become private estates and political fear of terms.

40:42In Germany, under Article 21 of the Basic Law, there's actually a provision by which the parties are regulated in terms of democratic management.

40:52Membership choice, funding, candidate choice, leadership choice.

40:58Now, our election is rigged before the election.

41:01Because you've already chosen some people who you think are electable,

41:05unrelated to what the people want or the country needs, because they are winnable.

41:09Our fight is about who is winning. No, it doesn't matter who is winning.

41:12It's the same kind of people.

41:14And oftentimes, one fellow is in this party today, three years later, another party.

41:18We are all fighting the shadow boxing.

41:20There's no real fight.

41:21So, political parties, internal democracy.

41:24The third thing is, unless fiscal prudence is brought in, because in a lot of Bihar we have seen,

41:31the temptation to yield to the short-term maximization for the voters, cash transfers and so on and so forth,

41:37at the cost of the country.

41:38So, Constitution provides space for that in Article 293, Article 262, etc.

41:45We must tighten these rules and make sure that borrowed money cannot be used for short-term freebies.

41:51You can do whatever you want, welfare and anything, current expenditure with current revenues, but not borrowed money.

41:58Because you cannot steal the future from the children of our country.

42:02Intergenerational equity is affected. It's a grand theft of the future.

42:05If this much is done, I think our democracy is stable.

42:08The problem, let me reiterate, is not with the EVMs.

42:11Every Chief Minister who lost the election went to the Supreme Court saying EVMs are bad.

42:15They won with the same EVMs, thumping the majority later on.

42:19It's not EVMs.

42:20Electoral laws are flawed, but they've been corrected.

42:22That's not a problem that is not equal to voter fraud.

42:26And it is not about the election commission.

42:29Every election commissioner in the country, from Sukumar Sen till date, they have done a pretty good job under difficult circumstances.

42:36There was one Chief Election Commissioner who was sought to be removed by due process.

42:40The government declined.

42:41He became Chief Election Commissioner.

42:43That didn't make a difference to the country.

42:45So, let's not think those three people are shaping the future of Indian democracy.

42:48No.

42:49It is shaped by other processes.

42:54Okay.

42:55I think we've heard two sane voices.

42:57I wish we had more sanity in that parliament debate where these real issues, money, power, the need to look at proportional representation,

43:04need to look at inner party democracy within political parties was looked at more seriously.

43:10I appreciate Jay Prakash Narayan and Dr. Qureshi hopefully for triggering a wider debate.

43:17Whether our netas will bite the bullet, I'm not so sure.

43:21But at least we will continue to look for possible solutions to make our electoral process much more robust.

43:28Thank you both very much for joining me.

43:31Thank you very much.

43:34Okay, let's turn then from there to the very latest on the Indigo meltdown.

43:39The DGCA has now summoned the Indigo CEO tomorrow and wants a full report on how the airline is going to get back on track.

43:49The Delhi High Court has also stepped in saying that the center needs to do more to protect passengers from such hardships

43:56and also has come down heavily on India's largest private airline.

44:01Take a look at all that happened in the Indigo story today.

44:09The Indigo crisis enters day nine.

44:11Flight cancellations continued on Wednesday causing trouble to flyers.

44:15The Directorate General of Civil Aviation or DGCA has summoned Indigo CEO Peter Elbers on Thursday

44:22for an update on the steps taken by the airline to smoothen its service.

44:26The summons come a day after the center announced 10% cut in Indigo's winter schedule.

44:31Top sources tell India today that the government will redistribute these flights among other air operators.

44:37But other Indian air carriers may struggle to fill the Indigo void.

44:42Sources say the flight cuts are more than the total flights of Akasa and Spicejet combined.

44:48Air India has added 12 flights while Spicejet has added 100 to meet the demand.

44:54While these measures may provide a little relief, the flight shortfall could lead to a hike in fares.

45:01The Delhi High Court took up a public interest litigation plea on the crisis.

45:05A two-judge bench of the High Court pulled up the government over the hardships faced by passengers and delayed response.

45:11Amid the massive crisis that has hit Indigo during the past week,

45:15the Delhi High Court bench headed by Chief Justice D.P. Opatriya took up the matter for cognizance today

45:20and stated that even though the PIL that has been filed before the Delhi High Court lacks in merits,

45:25it's important for the court to step in in larger public interests.

45:28The central government as well as the DGCA were pulled up by the Delhi High Court,

45:33where questions were raised as to why the crisis was allowed to happen in the first place

45:39and why the government and the DGCA had failed to act against Indigo and other airlines

45:44when they had not met their civil aviation requirements as per the 2024 guidelines.

45:49Meanwhile, the opposition is hammering the centre and the DGCA.

45:54The DGCA should have monitored the airline to see whether they're actually recruiting people.

45:58They had enough time to recruit it. There was no monitoring by the DGCA.

46:02It's a collective failure of the management of Indigo, of the DGCA and the ministry.

46:07The NDA is on the back foot.

46:10There's a lot of mudsludging against TDP and the India Alliance here by YSRCP and other parties saying

46:15because Ramon, I was at centre, this is why I was at centre.

46:18I don't know because it's more of a union government issue, which I don't have a great understanding about.

46:25But from my point of view, I think some mistake is I think better not to, you know, make it,

46:31blow it out of proportion. I think somewhere all of us should look into it and we should turn down.

46:36Indigo cancelled more than 4,000 flights over the last nine days.

46:40The airline claims to have paid over 900 crore rupees in refunds.

46:44The crisis has exposed the plight of passengers who do not seem to have any recourse for compensation for the hardships they faced.

46:51With Amit Bhardwaj, Apoorva and Nalini Sharma, Bureau Report, India Today.

46:57So how should we read the measures taken now by the Ministry of Civil Aviation

47:03and the Director General of Civil Aviation against Indigo Airlines.

47:07Joining me now is Vijay Gopalan, former CFO, AirAsia India.

47:11I appreciate your joining us.

47:13Mr Gopalan, everyone is now targeting Indigo today.

47:17The courts have targeted it.

47:18The government has, of course, ordered a 10% cut in its flight operations.

47:22Do you believe that this is the right message that has been sent out to Indigo for the fiasco over the last week?

47:29Firstly, thanks for having me over, Raj. Pleasure to be interacting with you.

47:33I think, yes, some tough measures had to be taken on Indigo.

47:38There's no way that you can wash off your hands saying that, you know, there were operational issues.

47:43This is not 10, 15 flights cancelled.

47:45I mean, we are talking about literally the entire Indian civil aviation coming to a grinding halt.

47:49So, I believe that the measures were justified.

47:58You are saying that the measures were justified, but do you believe that this will set some kind of a precedent now?

48:06There will be those who will even argue that, is this government intervention in the marketplace?

48:12Or do you believe that this is the way regulators must act when a particular airline, however large it is, seems to try and arm twist both the government and indeed the passengers?

48:27I absolutely agree with you. I agree with you on the latter point, Rajdeep.

48:31There is a regulator for a reason. When things are going as per market practices, we don't have a problem, they don't interfere.

48:37But when it's actually affecting the country, I think the regulators have to intervene.

48:42I mean, it's like saying there are market practices, you have regulators restricting monopolistic trade practices,

48:48and that's actually interference with the market practice.

48:51So, this is no different. When things are not going as it should have been going, it's perfectly justified for regulators to intervene.

49:00You've been a CFO with an airline. What impact do you believe this will have on Indigo itself?

49:09Is Indigo simply too big to fail? Will this be just a blip in their balance sheet?

49:16Truth be told, we thought Jettaways was too big to fail. Initially, we thought Kingfisher was too big to fail.

49:22But if at all Indian aviation has taught us anything, nobody is too big to fail.

49:26Having said which, I don't want to fearmonger at this point in time saying that Indigo is going to fold.

49:30I don't think that's the right thing to do. But this is going to have an impact, Rajdeep,

49:34because 10% of the flights in the festive season, because Q3, the third quarter of a financial year,

49:40especially December, will speak for any airline company to see profits.

49:46And 10% is a very sizable sum for any airline to take ahead.

49:51So it is going to have an impact on their financials, 100%.

49:58But, you know, the question we've been asking a number of guests who've come to us on this,

50:04do you believe what's happened in the last week will encourage more players to enter the civil aviation industry,

50:10or will they back off, fearing that this is an industry where it's not, it's becoming increasingly financially unviable according to some?

50:21This is a graveyard, Rajdeep, and I've also told this in many, many forums at this point in time.

50:26We need structural changes if we have to attract more players.

50:29You can't have taxes, the fuel taxes at 30% in a few states. It's extremely high.

50:3575% of my payouts are in dollars. And if my rupee is constantly going to be depreciating at a rapid pace,

50:41then my costs are going to increase. And we haven't even scratched the surface when it comes to engineering,

50:46MRO, and the crew training infrastructure in the country.

50:50We are talking about slot-related issues in a lot of airports.

50:53Take Chennai airports, I don't think you have sufficient slots now if you want to come in.

50:56So there are a whole lot of structural issues we need to sort out and make it a financially viable sector

51:02before investors start thinking about coming in here, Rajdeep.

51:09So what you are saying is that this should be a trigger in a way not just to penalize Indigo,

51:15but also to initiate structural issue, the structural failings of the civil aviation industry in this country. Am I correct?

51:23Absolutely right, Rajdeep. Perfect.

51:26Okay, that's a good way. Not too many guests will say absolutely right, perfect to me, but good to hear that.

51:35And maybe some of those structural issues we'll debate.

51:38We'll have a round table later this week looking at this critical issue of India's civil aviation sector

51:45and open skies policy. The trauma that passengers have faced in the last week has been immeasurable.

51:51Thank you very much, Mr. Gopalan, for joining me.

51:55Okay, let's turn to the other big story that we've been tracking.

51:58The terrible nightclub fire in Goa in which 25 people died.

52:03Well, today the co-owners of the property who have escaped to Thailand, Saurabh Luthra and Gaurav Luthra applied for anticipatory bail in the Delhi High Court,

52:16claiming that they were victims of a media witch hunt.

52:21One of the co-owners, Ajay Gupta, a partner in the company, was meanwhile picked up from Delhi.

52:28The question still remains, when will the government bring back the Luthra brothers or will they remain fugitives in Thailand?

52:37Take a look.

52:3825 lives lost.

52:56Four days of crackdown.

52:58And now a hunt to get the two owners of the birch by Romeo Lane who fled the country after the nightclub fire tragedy.

53:06After the Interpol Blue Corner notice was issued against brothers Gaurav and Saurabh Luthra,

53:12the two businessmen have moved a petition for anticipatory bail in Delhi's Rohini court.

53:18India today has accessed the bail plea.

53:21In the petition, Luthras have alleged witch hunt in the case and claimed they had all the required documents to run the nightclub.

53:30The Luthras also argued that the brothers had gone to Thailand for work on December 6 itself and that they are unable to return as they are anticipating a rest in Delhi.

53:42The brothers alleged that vindictive nature was being shown by authorities against them.

53:47The plea says that Luthras and their partner were not involved in the day-to-day operations which were managed by the on-ground restaurant managers.

53:58But the heat on them is rising.

54:00Goa Chief Minister Pramodh Savan declared that the owners will be arrested soon.

54:05He assured strict action against those who flout rules across Goa.

54:09So far, six people have been arrested in the Arpora nightclub fire case, including Luthras partner Ajay Gupta.

54:17Three government officials have been suspended.

54:42They have confronted Ajay Gupta, who is the latest to be arrested.

54:45He claims to be only a sleeping partner with Luthras.

54:49I am a sleeping partner.

54:51I don't know anything about this.

54:53I am a sleeping partner.

54:55But what do you say about this?

54:57How do you say about this?

54:59Where are you spending money?

55:00Because you are lying.

55:01You are lying.

55:02Where is the police on the apartment of the police?

55:03That, when you are lying, they are lying.

55:04How are you doing?

55:05And there is no one.

55:06I am not wrong with it.

55:07You are lying.

55:08I have aДа, bitch.

55:09That is bullshit.

55:11I am sorry, right?

55:13All right.

55:14I am sorry.

55:15I haven't said that.

55:16The chorus of the police, I have been there.

55:17And I have a fault that, you don't know.

55:19They have turned on from the police,

55:21and the police side of it.

55:22The police have left available.

55:23And it is.

55:24The truth is, there was no other choice.

55:25To say, I am not a liar.

55:26The court has allowed transit remand of Ajay Gupta.

55:39However, GST documents accessed by India today show Ajay Gupta registered as one of the partners with Luthara Brothers.

55:49Yesterday, another club of Luthara Brothers, Romeo Lane at Vagator, was demolished by the tourism department.

55:56It also had an order earlier also.

55:59But it is being told that the Luthara Brothers, despite demolition being carried out by the tourism department,

56:07they had constructed it again and were functioning till Sunday afternoon.

56:11With camera person Siddhesh and Ritesh Desai.

56:14This is Divesh Singh in Goa for India today.

56:17Okay, let's turn to tonight's good news today.

56:19A story which comes from Chhattisgarh where hundreds of senior citizens appeared for an examination a couple of days ago in Chhattisgarh as part of a literacy campaign.

56:30It's an ambitious campaign to ensure that even senior citizens who didn't have the benefit of going to school when they were young can now be fully literate within the next five years.