- 15 hours ago
A day after the showdown over Vande Mataram, the Lok Sabha on Tuesday witnessed a mega face-off over electoral reforms.
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00:00All right, the latest news break coming in right now.
00:04It seems big action has taken place against Indigo.
00:09The government has curtailed Indigo's 10% operations.
00:13Further action on Indigo by MOCA to reduce cancellations,
00:17order issued after MOCA, Ram Mohan Naidu,
00:22which is the Civil Aviation Minister,
00:24Ram Mohan Naidu and Samir Sina's meeting with Indigo CEO Peter Elbers.
00:31Indigo will continue to cover all its destinations.
00:35It will abide by 10% curtailment of operations ordered by MOCA.
00:40That's the latest that is coming in.
00:43My colleague Amit Bhardwaj joins us with the latest coming in from the Civil Aviation Ministry.
00:48In just about a minute, we're going to also cut across to what the Civil Aviation Minister said.
00:52Amit had spoken to the Civil Aviation Minister a short while ago.
00:56Let's quickly cut into what the Civil Aviation Minister told us.
01:02But we're going to cut across to Karishma Sudhani.
01:04Karishma, as expected, the government had come under pressure
01:07for not taking adequate action against Indigo.
01:1210% curtailment of operations right now ordered by the government.
01:17What more can we expect?
01:18Well, Preeti, a 10% cut primarily speaks a lot about a strict action
01:27that government has been wanting to take against the airline
01:29for the chaos that it landed itself up in early last week
01:37because of its operational issues and not abiding by the FTDL norms.
01:41Now, this 10% is going to be heavy on their financials
01:46because Indigo, which holds 65% market share in the country,
01:50has catered to more than 100 destinations.
01:54While they'll continue to cater the same destinations,
01:56they'll have to reduce their flight slots,
02:00which will likely be given to Air India, Akasa Air and Spicejet.
02:03And a 10% loss, as small as it seems, is big for an airline like Indigo,
02:09which was majorly operating under the monopoly scene
02:14of serving maximum flight to maximum destinations.
02:18It does not come as a good news,
02:19but it's also expected that the government will take strict action
02:24against the management.
02:25That's still possible because investigations are ongoing.
02:29A high-level committee by DGCA is also studying the case
02:32and an internal committee has also been set up to understand
02:36what and how things went wrong with India Airlines.
02:41All right, Karishma.
02:42I appreciate you joining us with the very latest.
02:44So, the Ministry of Civil Aviation has come out with not just guidelines now,
02:49but finally they've been under enough pressure
02:51of not taking adequate or tough action against Indigo
02:54that practically enjoys a monopoly in Indian skies.
02:5710% containment of operations.
02:59Those slots now will be awarded to other airlines
03:02like Air India, Akasa Air and Spicejet.
03:05Will there be more action where Indigo is concerned,
03:08where the management is concerned?
03:09That's something that would be keenly watched.
03:11All right, with that, let's cut across to the latest
03:13that is coming in from the Parliament.
03:15If yesterday were scenes where debate in Parliament took place,
03:20a 12-hour debate on Wande Maataram.
03:23Today, it was electoral reforms.
03:25Take a look.
03:33After a caustic clash in Wande Maataram,
03:35The battle for India's ballot was fought in the Lok Sabha.
03:55The Congress and opposition India bloc launched a direct assault on the government
04:00over the special intensive revision and the broader electoral process.
04:04All the institutions...
04:06Leader of the opposition Rahul Gandhi questioned the very credibility
04:10of democratic safeguards, alleging a systematic attempt
04:14to hijack free and fair elections.
04:17There is no bigger anti-national act that you can do than vote should.
04:25Because when you destroy the vote, you destroy the fabric of this country.
04:32You destroy modern India, you destroy the idea of India.
04:37Tempers flared when Rahul Gandhi invoked the RSS.
04:43The Treasury benches erupted, disrupting proceedings
04:47and forcing repeated interventions from the chair.
04:50Unfaced, Gandhi intensified his attack, demanding direct access to EVMs,
05:05stressing that transparency cannot be selective.
05:08What is the architecture of the EVM?
05:11Give us access to the EVM.
05:13Let our experts go and see what is inside the EVM.
05:15Till today, we have not had access to the EVM.
05:21We are not shown the architecture of the EVM.
05:24We are not physically allowed to go and see an EVM.
05:26His charge resonated across the opposition,
05:33reviving calls for a return to paper ballots
05:35amid growing public distrust in EVMs.
05:39Who has the source code of these EVMs?
05:42I did not receive an answer that day.
05:44I have not received an answer till now.
05:47100% VVYPAD की counting हो.
05:50और यहा, जो से बढ़िया सालूशन है,
05:55कि हमको पेपर बैलेट पे वापस चला जाना.
05:57सबसे बड़े सुधार की जरुत यह है कि लोग तंत्र में फिर से भरोसा जगाये जाए.
06:02The BJP struck back, dismissing the allegations as a political stunt.
06:16Gandhi family beta Nishikant Dubey was fielded right after Rahul Gandhi's speech,
06:22accusing the opposition of targeting constitutional institutions and sowing doubt ahead of crucial elections.
06:29The key elections looming, the battle over India's voting process
06:53has become a full-blown political flashpoint, a fight for trust and credibility.
06:59What remains to be seen is what will be the political and electoral fallout.
07:05Will the opposition sustain the charge of vote joddy?
07:08Importantly, will it register and find echo with the voters?
07:12Bureau Report, India Today.
07:17All right, let's take the debate further.
07:19I'm joined right now by Mr. Yogindri Yadav, co-founders, Swaraj India,
07:23and Mr. Rajat Sethi, political analysts.
07:25Both of you will be getting an uninterrupted two minutes' time to put your point forward,
07:29and then we'll go to the other guests and come back to you for a rebuttal there.
07:34Mr. Yadav, to begin with you, earlier on, the sheer fact that EVMs were introduced on the same premise
07:39of the ballot papers being criticized in the time of Mr. Rajiv Gandhi.
07:44The question also, Yogindri Yadav ji, is today, that is the SIR a problem?
07:49Is the voter roll a problem? Is the EVM a problem?
07:53Because it seems today, the messaging from the opposition is that everything is a problem.
08:00Indeed, so much is the problem.
08:02Electoral reform is a bit of a euphemism,
08:05because what we are dealing with today is electoral deform and attempt to curb it.
08:12We have three levels of deforms.
08:14One is the issue conducted, related with vote jury,
08:18which is about voter list manipulations,
08:21which is about EVM,
08:22which is about the conduct of local officials,
08:26which is about bribery at the time of elections,
08:28and so on and so forth.
08:29That's only one level.
08:30At the second level is what is all over the world called abusive constitutionalism,
08:37which is use of law in order to institutionalize this story,
08:41which is the case.
08:42To my mind, SIR,
08:45One Nation, One Election,
08:46and delimitation of the kind that is being proposed, we believe,
08:50would be in that category.
08:52And the third level is capture of the institution,
08:57the election commission itself,
08:59which is meant to address all these things.
09:02So what we have today is that the whole country is moving towards a system
09:09in which we would have a semblance of elections,
09:12the formality of election, the formality of competitiveness,
09:17while for all practical purposes,
09:19it's a very uneven playing ground.
09:23Someone is being asked to run on a flat surface.
09:26The other party, the opposition,
09:28is being asked to climb uphill,
09:31and both of them are being given 100 meters to climb.
09:34And then someone would say,
09:35all right, the result is there.
09:36Someone has done run it fast.
09:38This is a completely uneven playing ground,
09:42which is being created in a way which is worse than ever before in the history of this country.
09:48Therefore, not only the issues that you mentioned,
09:51much more is the problem.
09:53And in a sense, it's unfair to ask which one of them is a problem.
09:56Of course, all of them are a problem.
09:58And all of them put together,
10:00today are placing Indian electoral system in a loss of credibility like never before.
10:07Mr. Yadav, I'll come back to you for your two minutes.
10:09I want to bring in Rajat Sethi.
10:10Rajat Sethi, the charge today is that there is a slow institutionalization of a system.
10:16You know, it can be the VVPAT, it can be the EVMs, and then it was the SIR.
10:21Then it would be delimitation.
10:22Then it's one nation, one election.
10:24That there's a concerted move to move towards a semblance of democracy,
10:28which is, in effect, compromised.
10:32Titi Ji, good evening.
10:36This continues to be a very boring, predictable rant and or a loser's lament.
10:43All we are hearing is platitudes and euphemisms around trying to give a smokescreen to the core cause.
10:51The main cause is where, you know, the previous speaker was highlighting that everything is wrong,
10:57except the opposition.
10:58If this is the diagnosis that the opposition has of everything that is going on currently,
11:04this just shows that they live on a parallel planet.
11:07They have zero connect with the public.
11:08They have zero understanding of what the genuine needs of the public are.
11:12And they have completely crippled what an opposition should look like.
11:16Ideally, they should be picking up issues on the floor of the parliament which matter to the public,
11:21if they have any evidence.
11:22And it, therefore, has to be a legal fight, which you have to fight it out in various platforms,
11:28and if you deem fit, and there are genuine undeniable evidences,
11:33you should have brought forward even on the floor of the parliament.
11:35But so far, we have seen repeatedly what has changed when this hydrogen bomb was dropped by Rahul Gandhi till today.
11:42The only event that has happened in the middle is that they have badly lost the Bihar election.
11:47Nothing on the ground reality has changed.
11:49Windows of opportunities that existed even after Bihar election to file complaints against any discrepancy that they saw in the electoral process have all lapsed.
11:59Not a single complaint has been put forth by them.
12:02You know, you don't want to follow the due processes of law, but just like a prince,
12:06you want everything to fall in place and surround themselves with, you know,
12:10with a set of advisors like Yogendra Yadavji, who try to take them on to mars where a different set of politics operate.
12:17That is the challenge.
12:18The challenge right now is that you have stopped hearing to the public and the public's genuine grievances.
12:22And you will continue to lament and continue wasting time,
12:25not just of the opposition space, but also of the common public.
12:28Carry on with it.
12:29All right.
12:30I'm going to give both our panelists two minutes each.
12:33Yogendra Yadavji, I want to bring you back into this conversation,
12:36because there is no redressal with what we have seen.
12:39There are charges after charges that the opposition has made.
12:42And Yogendraji, it also comes with the fact that while you will have the Congress criticize the Bihar election,
12:48call the Bihar election rigged, it will also celebrate the win of a by-election in Jubilee Hills.
12:53So there is a fair amount of confusion in the voters today that how is one election fair
12:59at the cost of the other, which is unfair.
13:02So either then the opposition goes ahead and says we don't believe in the election system.
13:06We will not participate in an election which we think is fixed.
13:11That precisely is the dilemma in competitive authoritarian states.
13:15I'm telling you briefly, this is a global trend now.
13:19India is just one of the examples of what is happening here.
13:22The basic idea is that you turn the electoral playing ground so uneven that while the chances
13:31of the opposition winning are not exactly zero, but they are so slim that you can continue,
13:38you can constantly put them on the wrong track.
13:40The funny thing is that my, and then the interesting thing about this is that you cite the very results
13:49of the system as a proof of your popularity, which itself is under question.
13:56So how can you keep citing, oh, we win election, oh, we win election, but that's precisely what
14:00is being questioned.
14:01How can that be a proof of what is being argued?
14:04My friend wants to know where is the proof?
14:06I'll pick two things that Akhilesh, because he probably wants me to speak only about Raul
14:11Gandhi.
14:11He has some obsession with those things.
14:13I'll bring two things about what Akhilesh Yadav said today.
14:17He mentioned Mao.
14:19What has happened in Mao?
14:21And there is complete evidence.
14:23He has produced it.
14:25I have personally checked that evidence.
14:27Before SIR began, in the two months prior to SIR, 20,000 names were removed of people of
14:35one kind of community.
14:36The result is that in SIR, even enumeration forms will not be given in those houses.
14:44They are completely thrown out.
14:46Is that not an evidence?
14:47I'll give Kundarki.
14:49Kundarki is a place in Muradabad where by-elections were held after the Lok Sabha election.
14:58Suddenly, and there is absolutely documented proof, statistically checked by econometricians.
15:04I'm serious about it.
15:05Some of the best minds in the country have checked that evidence, which shows that suddenly
15:10in those booths, Kundarki is a constituency that Samajbadi party has always won.
15:16Suddenly after the Lok Sabha election, all the booths with Muslims there, voter list is prone.
15:24Okay, sir, your time is up.
15:26I'm giving you 10 seconds extra, which I'll allow Rajat as well.
15:29As Samajbadi party loses that by one lakh vote, is that not an evidence?
15:32I want to get in Rajat.
15:35Rajat, the fact is the opposition pan party, it's not just one particular Congress, it's
15:42Samajbadi party, it is the TMC, who've raised certain issues which the credibility of those
15:49will only be judged once there is a verification and an investigation.
15:52Do you think that at least now, there has to be some meeting ground, if these, one after
15:58the other, for a fair amount of time, the opposition is raising this issue, something needs to be
16:04done about it instead of just brushing it aside and saying, you know, they're sour losers.
16:09So, Preeti ji, there are checks and institutional checks and balances that exist.
16:16There are institutions to supervise and do judicial reviews around any decisions of executive
16:23nature or otherwise anybody is taking in the country.
16:28But the problem is, these so-called econometricians, who fortunately for this country, you cannot
16:35land up in a situation where you are the judge, jury and executioner.
16:38That is good for us because, you know, otherwise, on a daily basis, verdicts on our democracy
16:42will be issued by individuals like Sri Yogendra Yadavji.
16:47The problem here is that they don't want to knock the doors of the courts, which they,
16:51by the way, they have very special access to.
16:53They can actually wake up the courts in the middle of the night also and they will get
16:56a due hearing, but they don't have the necessary evidences so far to either put it on public
17:01platforms or to take it to the court.
17:03If you genuinely feel there are grievances, there are ways to do it, but they want to circumvent
17:07all of that and do drama and theatrics around it.
17:11You know, you, when you say and you present an example of a constituency where Samajwadi
17:15party has never lost and is losing the election, you need to go back to the drawing board, try
17:20to understand why is public not voting for you.
17:22Minus that main question, they will address everything else around it.
17:26This is a simple case of beating around the bush.
17:28They want to carry on with it.
17:30Good luck with it.
17:31It is really unfortunate for the, for the country because you do not have a responsible
17:35opposition in place of a responsible connected opposition.
17:38You are filled with people who have zero connect, who can't win a single election in this country.
17:43And somehow they are, you know, they are calling on to the verdict on, on such a thing like,
17:48you know, whether our democracy is failing or not, that is an unfortunate scenario.
17:52I still believe that if genuine people, you know, occupy opposition chairs, they'll understand
17:59where the lacuna is.
18:01By the way, a lot of the Congress party workers and the Akhilesh Yadav's workers are understanding
18:06where the gap is.
18:07Look at how hard Akhilesh Yadav's party, Samajwadi party is working in tandem with the same SIR,
18:13setting up boots after boots onto the villages and urban areas to ensure that the voters are
18:18getting registered.
18:18That is the response that you need to have, not to be anarchist.
18:22If you want to carry on your anarchy attitude and hope and pray that Nepal will happen or
18:26Bangladesh will happen, then let me tell you, this country has seen all kinds of discourse
18:31and anarchists in the country.
18:31I'm going to just turn, I appreciate both you gentlemen for joining us.
18:34I'm going to turn to our political debate and we're going to take the conversation further
18:38in the political domain.
18:40We are joined by two spokespersons, Adil Singh Bhoparai, National Spokesperson Congress,
18:44Sanju Verma, National Spokesperson Bharatiya Janata Party.
18:47Adil, to begin with you, you just heard some of the panelists earlier, we've moved to
18:53a political debate there.
18:55But the question that I had asked, it is a dichotomy, Adil.
18:57The charge is that there is a semblance of a democracy that seemingly functions, which
19:01is hollow, where elections are rigged one after the other.
19:04That is what I would think I can sum up with what we heard in Parliament from your leader,
19:09Rahul Gandhi, you had an Akhilesh Yadav as well, and a Manish Tawari from your side.
19:13The fact is, Adil, then, in that scenario, this is what the opposition really believes,
19:18that the elections are rigged.
19:19We've come after Bihar.
19:21Bihar is, as per the opposition, a rigged election.
19:25It's a stolen election.
19:26But the seat of Jubilee Hills in Hyderabad in by-elections with the Congress won, is not
19:32rigged.
19:32You've won it on your own steam, you've celebrated it.
19:35How do the twain meet, Adil?
19:36Either have the gumption and say, we don't believe in this electoral system.
19:40We will boycott the elections.
19:42Either say that, or if it is this or that, how does it even match?
19:49Piti, let's just step back for a moment and look at this entire issue objectively, minus
19:56and dehors the political din.
19:59Point number one.
20:00One, why should the government, or for that matter, the Election Commission of India, be
20:05hesitant to share machine-readable electoral data, which would be available to all political
20:13parties, including the Congress and the BJP?
20:16What could be a possible hesitation to share that?
20:19Point number one.
20:21Point number two.
20:22When the Supreme Court says that the third person of the selection panel should be the
20:27Chief Justice of India, an independent person, why does the parliament, and particularly the
20:32government of the day, ramrod a bill bringing in the Home Minister as the veto for the purposes
20:39of selecting the chairperson and the election commissioners?
20:43Point number two.
20:44Point number three.
20:46What is it that the government is trying to hide when you provide for a legal statutory
20:52stipulation that the CCTV footages of every booth should be deleted after 45 days?
20:59Point number four.
21:01And this is very, very critical.
21:03Why is it that the government is shying away from transparency?
21:08Let's move away from tutu mehmeh for a moment.
21:11Democracy is always an evolving process.
21:15The endeavor is to improve systems.
21:17Why is it that the BJP, with all its indignation and anxiety, trying to bulldoze legitimate demands
21:26of the opposition?
21:28And now coming to specifics.
21:30Despite the SIR, you had lacks of duplication of photographs in the Bihar voter lists.
21:36So, what is the sum substance and the deduction from the so-called SIR?
21:41Number two.
21:43How can thousands and lakhs of people be registered at house number zero?
21:47This is beyond my understanding.
21:49This is honestly beyond my understanding that how can the election commission of India justify...
21:55Adil, you're two minutes, Harap.
21:56I'll circle back to you.
21:57I'm going to bring in Sanju Verma into this conversation.
21:59Sanju Verma, it's a charge which no matter how much, you know, the government might seem
22:04to suggest that it has no basis.
22:07But it is a charge which continues and it stays election after election from the opposition.
22:13They have strong issues with the electoral process right now.
22:18Is it time now, Sanju Verma, for once and for all, to have a court-monitored probe?
22:23Have an investigation?
22:24You know, Preeti, let me address each of your concerns by the Congress Party.
22:31First and foremost, machine-readable voter list.
22:34There is a judgment by the Supreme Court in 2019 in the case of Kamal Nath versus the
22:39Election Commission.
22:40It said that machine-readable voter list tantamounts to it being edited and there are possibilities
22:50of misuse and compromising voter privacy and hence machine-readable voter list is not, you
22:59know, viable.
22:59This is the Supreme Court, not BJP.
23:02See, so much, in many words, in 2019.
23:06The second, you know, the election commission, Chief Election Commissioner, she, you know,
23:13said the committee show has the CJI.
23:17Now, I want to say currently the CEC Chief Election Commissioner is appointed by the president
23:22but selected by a three-member committee with the prime minister as the chairperson, that
23:27is leader of the opposition and a huge cabinet minister.
23:31But for the day of the time, under all, it will be the prime minister who used to pick and
23:36choose the CEC.
23:39The leader of opposition never had that privilege.
23:41T.S.
23:42Krishnamurti became the CEC in February 2004, picked by Manmohan Singh.
23:48B.B.
23:48Tandan in May 2005, picked Manmohan Singh.
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24:37for your final two minutes,
24:38and I wanna bring in Adil back into this conversation.
24:41Adil, you know, today the issue,
24:44the point that there is an issue with the SIR,
24:47as per the opposition says,
24:49is now since the SIR started.
24:52You've made allegations of vote chori,
24:55how elections of Haryana, Maharashtra was stolen.
24:57You've said the same thing about Bihar.
24:59You've also now, this time around,
25:01in parliament circled back to a problem with the EVMs.
25:04EVMs were actually introduced with this basic problem
25:07where people didn't trust ballot papers,
25:09the then opposition in the time of Rajiv Gandhi itself, Adil.
25:14Preeti, you have to understand how autocracies
25:17and oligarchies work.
25:20It is not just a mere capture of the election commission.
25:23There is a wholesale lock, stock and barrel capture
25:27of all institutions which constitute a bulwark
25:31or which is in a position to question the government.
25:35This includes the investigating agencies.
25:37This includes the executives.
25:40This includes the ECI.
25:41And to a great extent, this includes the media.
25:44So there is a complete or a near total capture of institutions.
25:48This is how it functions, number one.
25:51Number two, please consider this for a moment.
25:54You cannot run this country by looking at the rare site.
25:58If there was a certain set of practices in 1960 where the ECI was selected in a certain manner,
26:05it does not mean that we should not improve in 2010 or 2025.
26:11Why should the government oppose having the Chief Justice of India as the third party
26:16or the third person to select the election commissioners?
26:18It is far too important just to be left.
26:21Tomorrow, BJP will not be in power.
26:24Tomorrow, we will be in power or vice versa.
26:27Why should the government be hesitant to have a level playing field?
26:31Number three, it is the arrogance of this government
26:34and the arrogance which was on display by the BJP spokesperson right before me.
26:39This arrogance is running this country down to the ground.
26:43The BJP is interested in discussing the 18th century, the 17th century and the 16th century,
26:50but they are not interested in discussing unemployment.
26:52They are not interested in discussing that legal citizens, Indian citizens are being disenfranchised.
26:58They are not interested in discussing issues which we are grappling today in 2025.
27:04And finally, Preeti, let me say this with a sense of urgency and responsibility.
27:09If we have to take this country further, if we have to strengthen institutions,
27:14then we require bipartisanship.
27:17And for that, we must...
27:18All right, Adil, your time is up.
27:21Okay, quick two minutes, Sanju Verma.
27:23That's all that we have the time for now.
27:25Go ahead, final concluding statement.
27:28Preeti, I want to read out what Justice Vikram Nath said November 2024.
27:32While listening to criticism on EVMs by the opposition, particularly a debilitated leader like Rahul Gandhi.
27:41EVMs are tampered when you lose and fine if you win.
27:45Let us be very clear.
27:46EVMs are safe, secure, user-friendly.
27:49By doubt, the electoral process, you cannot justify an attitude where speculation override the due process of action.
27:58So, the Supreme Court has called out the above Rahul Gandhi.
28:02I don't need to say more.
28:03But I'm saying, when were elections tampered?
28:06When a man called T.M. Session, who was the Cabinet Secretary under Rajiv Gandhi,
28:11actually became the Chief Election Commissioner and was then given the Rahman Magisayev Award.
28:17When were elections tampered?
28:19When a man called M.S. Gill became the Chief Election Commissioner between 1996 and 2001,
28:24became the Union's Post Minister under the Congress Government in 2006.
28:29And guess what, Preeti?
28:30He was awarded the Padma Vibhushan.
28:33And elections were tampered when a man called Naveep Chawla, handpicked by Sonia Gandhi,
28:37was given Italy's award, the Madhzini Award, and was made the National Icon of the Year.
28:43Yes, that is the award he's got.
28:44But I want to tell, you know, the Congress spokesperson.
28:49For the first time, EVMs were used in 1998, state elections in Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Delhi.
28:55Congress won all three, BJP lost all the three.
28:58We didn't know it.
28:59First time EVMs were used in general elections in 2004 and 2009, BJP lost.
29:05Congress won.
29:06Some were not any GDP leader.
29:08I was not interested in that.
29:09But nobody played, spoiled sport.
29:12And let me tell you one thing, if there is anybody who's undermining democracy,
29:17if there's anyone who's enjoying all the hopes of being a member of the government,
29:23he experienced that spirit and still bring down the institution,
29:27it's an anti-national called Rahul Gandhi.
29:30All right, ma'am, your time is up.
29:32Ma'am, your time is up.
29:33You know, like I said, your memory is rich.
29:35But also, it was your leader, Mr. L.K. Advani, in 2009,
29:39who wanted ballot papers back because he didn't trust the EVMs.
29:42But we're going to leave it at that.
29:44On that note, we're going to leave it at that.
29:46Thank you, both of you, for joining us.
29:48Two days after a deadly fire claimed 25 lives at Birch by Romeo Lane in Gua Zarpura,
30:08government begins crackdown on restaurants not complying with norms.
30:11On the orders of Chief Minister Pramodh Savant,
30:15the authorities have demolished the nightclub,
30:17which was set up in violation of many flouted norms.
30:20This is a completely illegal structure.
30:32There is no permit.
30:34There is no license.
30:36No permit to run a restaurant.
30:38No permit to run a shack.
30:40No permit to run a bar over here.
30:42This is a completely illegal club.
30:45Another club of Luthra brothers and completely illegal.
30:4925 people died there.
30:51And only after that,
30:52the Goa government woke up
30:54and they sealed this property
30:56and along with other three properties
30:58belonging to the Luthra brothers.
30:59While 25 people fought for their lives
31:03in the blaze at the Birch in Arpura,
31:06the owners, Saurav Luthra and Gaurav Luthra,
31:09were busy packing their bags
31:11to quietly slip out of the country.
31:18Just hours after firefighters managed to control the inferno,
31:22the Luthra brothers were comfortably seated
31:25on a 5.30M Indigo flight to Phuket,
31:27leaving behind the smoke, the bodies
31:30and the questions they did not want to face.
31:34As the probe picks up speed,
31:37the police are unearthing lapses one after another.
31:41Narrow entry exits, illegal construction,
31:44no safety fire clearances and negligence,
31:47non-functional fire detection and suppression systems,
31:50combustible interiors and decor
31:52and no escape routes or ventilation
31:55in the lower levels are just a few of the violations.
31:59Five people have been arrested so far,
32:02but the ones who should be answering first
32:04are in hiding abroad.
32:06This even as they find time
32:08to post social media messages
32:09offering condolences.
32:11A Delhi police team visited the Luthra residence
32:20in the national capital,
32:21but found it deserted.
32:23The illegal constructed part was on the land
32:30belonging to Goa government.
32:33And for good five years,
32:35this club was functioning,
32:38catering to customers
32:39who was protecting the Luthra brothers.
32:43Why no immediate action was taken?
32:46How illegal construction was allowed?
32:48How illegal activities without any permits,
32:51without any licences, without any approvals,
32:53how were these clubs functioning?
32:56That is the question over here.
32:58With camera person Siddish and Ritesh Desai,
33:01this is Divesh Singh in Goa for India Today.
33:05My colleague Divesh joins us right now from Vagathora.
33:08Divesh, you've been tracking the fallout of the fire,
33:13the tragedy of the fire very closely.
33:15Till now, those arrested are low-hanging fruit.
33:17The way this club was functioning
33:21without any licences, with impunity,
33:24not just one, but a second property as well.
33:28Where is the DM?
33:29Where is the local MLA?
33:31Who is protecting the Luthra brothers?
33:33Any action been taken on that account?
33:35Well, right, Pritik.
33:42That is the question that arises over here.
33:44Who was protecting Luthra brothers?
33:47How were they able to run five such properties in Goa
33:52without a trade licence, without permits,
33:55without approvals, violating the CRZ norms,
33:59coastal regulatory norms, violating pollution norms?
34:01There is no fire safety and, in fact,
34:04at the club where the unfortunate incident happened,
34:08the basement was a trap.
34:10It had no ventilation.
34:12It had no exits.
34:13It had just one entry and exit point,
34:16which led to the first floor
34:18where the performance was happening.
34:20And on the lower basement,
34:21there was changing room,
34:22there was kitchen,
34:23and there was workers' area.
34:25That is where 23 people suffocated to death,
34:29while two were charged to death on the upper floor.
34:33These 25 people died because of sheer negligence
34:36and because the Luthra brothers
34:39endaged their life and personal safety
34:41of everyone visiting the club.
34:44Not just the staffers,
34:46but even the patrons, even the customers.
34:48Over 200 people were present there.
34:49And just behind me,
34:51you can see that this is the demolished part
34:54of Romeo Lane at Waggator.
34:56We are present here.
34:57And it's just not one particular resort,
34:59which the Luthras own.
35:00There are multiple resorts
35:01that are functioning with impunity,
35:03without any licences.
35:04I want to cut across to our guests this evening,
35:07Yashavarda Nazad,
35:08former IPS officer,
35:09Akasha Madhgavkar,
35:11VP North Goa Travel and Tourism Association of Goa,
35:15and Dr. Kiran Bedi,
35:16who's joining us.
35:17Dr. Kiran Bedi,
35:17you know, usually it's just a low-hanging fruit.
35:20But the larger question,
35:21who is protecting the Luthras?
35:23The sheer fact,
35:24they could leave so easily on a flight
35:27outbound to Phuket, Thailand,
35:29at 5 a.m. in the morning.
35:31Why weren't any checks in order?
35:35I think they've been exceedingly smart
35:37because they left overnight.
35:39They knew what was coming.
35:40So obviously,
35:41what they were doing very smartly,
35:44they've done it further smartly
35:45by fleeing away at the earliest,
35:47midnight.
35:48So I think they were very smart.
35:50That's what happened.
35:51Because they knew otherwise it was coming.
35:56Who takes responsibility,
35:58you know,
35:59Dr. Kiran Bedi,
35:59because this is the low-hanging fruit
36:01in terms of the arrests
36:02that have taken place.
36:03Even the Luthras,
36:04well,
36:04they need to be brought back.
36:06There's a blue-collar notice against them.
36:07But the larger question,
36:09who takes responsibility?
36:11Who is in collusion?
36:13Who is trying to protect the Luthras?
36:15How is it that these clubs
36:16were functioning without any license
36:18on government land,
36:19illegally at that?
36:22Preeti,
36:23it has to be the bigger hand.
36:24It is finally the hand that governs.
36:27And the local governance is.
36:29It cannot be without that local hand.
36:32And the local hand
36:33will clear only in seeing
36:35what is in it for him or her.
36:37We do not.
36:38And the local MLA,
36:40local MLA is bound to be a beneficiary.
36:43Otherwise,
36:43the local MLA can go and agitate against it
36:46and say,
36:47yeh nahi mhunne de na mani.
36:48Mujhe bata diji jiye
36:49kitnye local MLA's hote hai
36:51aisei galat jagah per jaa kar kehte hai
36:53meh nahi mhunne de na
36:54mai baihtha ho ga.
36:55I tell you,
36:56the day the local MLA's
36:58start taking
36:59these kinds of corrective measures,
37:02and take charge,
37:04I think India will not change.
37:06We need to now go after
37:07the local MLA
37:08and the local district magistrate.
37:11We need to find these two people.
37:13Once they do that,
37:15one is professionally responsible,
37:17the other is electorally responsible.
37:19Don't go after these small fries.
37:21These small fries are just surviving,
37:22living hand to mouth
37:23or unless of course making a lot of money.
37:26Appreciate you joining us, Dr. Bedi.
37:28Thank you there
37:29because the corrupt collusion
37:31is now blatantly
37:34at display.
37:35How is this restaurant?
37:37There's not just one.
37:38There are multiple restaurants
37:39owned by the Lutharas itself.
37:40On the other hand,
37:41there are multiple other clubs
37:43that have been found
37:44where they are functioning
37:45with abject impunity,
37:47without any clearances
37:49on government land,
37:50without licenses.
37:52You're absolutely right.
37:53I've been going to Goa
37:54and this is the story
37:56of almost most of the restaurants
37:58in Goa
37:59who, you know,
38:01sort of have this
38:02Jugaad theory.
38:03Wherever they have a capacity
38:04of 50,
38:05there'll be 500 people there.
38:07But there's a serious issue here.
38:10Even the panchayat,
38:11it's a very strange phenomena,
38:13Preeti,
38:13that even for a house construction,
38:15residence house construction
38:17is the panchayat
38:18which gives,
38:19you know,
38:20license.
38:21Amazing.
38:22You know,
38:22these are all,
38:23this new fag,
38:25fang democracy
38:26which is coming to the roots.
38:28And of course,
38:28it's with major consideration
38:30that you get it.
38:31Even the panchayat
38:32was protesting,
38:33so you're absolutely right
38:34that he has his hands
38:37right up at the top
38:38and the top ones
38:39are supporting.
38:40This kind of a support
38:41has to be political.
38:43It has to be,
38:43that is why it filters
38:45through the district magistrate
38:47and about their going out.
38:50My heart goes out
38:51to two kinds of people.
38:52One who died in the basement
38:54who were,
38:54you know,
38:55ordinary laborers
38:56from different states
38:57who don't have GPF,
38:59who don't have any security
39:00and also to those small timers
39:03who have been arrested
39:04for no reason.
39:05Tell me,
39:06how does a gatekeeper know
39:07about violation of license
39:09or a general
39:11chota mota manager?
39:12General manager,
39:13the CEO,
39:14yes,
39:15and the Luthor brothers.
39:16So, you know,
39:17as you said,
39:18the low-hanging fruit,
39:19it doesn't serve
39:20the purpose at all.
39:22The question is
39:23that in Goa,
39:24even the foreign tourists
39:25are running away
39:26because this is
39:27the kind of thing,
39:28the security,
39:30the safety
39:30is now absolutely gone.
39:33And in North Goa,
39:34it has become
39:34a hotbed of corruption
39:36and all kinds
39:37of get the wrong businesses.
39:40No,
39:40you know,
39:40the fact is
39:41it's a corrupt
39:42collusion
39:43of conspiracy,
39:45all of that
39:46brought together
39:47and it seems,
39:48Mr. Madgaokar,
39:49that everyone
39:49has their hand
39:50in the till
39:51because how can
39:53these clubs
39:53be allowed to function
39:55without any licenses
39:57at all?
39:58It's just,
39:58it's mind-boggling.
40:02This has been
40:03just a collective failure
40:04on all those
40:05concerned.
40:07A deep
40:07introspection
40:08has to be done
40:09to prevent
40:09such incidents
40:10in the future.
40:12Yes,
40:12various departments
40:13are involved,
40:15absolutely.
40:17The basic requirement
40:18here is that
40:18government officials
40:19should be allowed
40:20to do their jobs
40:21according to the rules
40:21without any
40:22political interference.
40:24If that was done,
40:25I'm sure
40:26such incidences
40:27wouldn't have been done,
40:28but there's clear
40:29political interference
40:31maybe at state level
40:32and from what
40:33we are hearing
40:33here in Goa,
40:34probably from a
40:35central level
40:36since the owners
40:37of this club
40:37are from Delhi
40:39and North India.
40:40Are you alluding
40:41that there is
40:42interference,
40:43political interference
40:44at a central level?
40:45That's a big charge,
40:46Mr. Madhgaokar?
40:47It could be,
40:48definitely,
40:49because otherwise
40:49government officials,
40:50if they are allowed
40:51to do their job,
40:52this wouldn't happen.
40:54Even if you go
40:55to see,
40:55you know,
40:56a major clampdown
40:58has to be done
40:58on illegal businesses.
40:59There are a lot
41:00of fly-by-night operators
41:01who have come
41:02into Goa
41:03post-COVID,
41:04which, you know,
41:05associations
41:06like the TTAG
41:07have pointed out
41:08to the government.
41:09The government
41:09is taking action,
41:11but, you know,
41:12it's been rather slow
41:13and, you know,
41:15not,
41:16it's more reactive
41:17rather than proactive.
41:18Like, you know,
41:19now something
41:20has happened,
41:21maybe, you know,
41:22because of this incident,
41:23there will be an audit
41:24done,
41:24which came out
41:25in the news today,
41:26and action will be taken,
41:27but we should rather
41:29be proactive
41:29than reactive,
41:30you know.
41:32So, you're saying
41:32everybody has their
41:33hand in the till.
41:34This could go all the way
41:35to a central leader
41:36in Delhi,
41:38and that's why
41:38there is collusion
41:39is what you're indicating.
41:40As you can see,
41:41it's multiple departments.
41:43It's a collective
41:43Okay, multiple departments.
41:45It's a grave charge.
41:45Yashavarda Nazad,
41:46you wanted to come in
41:47very quickly, sir.
41:48You know,
41:49you can't throw your hands up
41:50by saying the centre
41:51is involved
41:51and this is involved.
41:52If a district magistrate
41:53doesn't allow
41:54a structure like this,
41:56who's going to tell him?
41:56Chief Minister will tell him
41:57no, please allow
41:58this structure.
41:59No, it doesn't come like that.
42:02And it is a one city state.
42:04There are thousands
42:05and there are so many officers,
42:06the IIS officers
42:07and IPS officers.
42:09You think this is not noticed?
42:10You think the Chief Minister
42:11does not notice all this?
42:13It's a one city state.
42:14Even if one minister
42:15is allocated
42:16a particular area,
42:17one district,
42:18they can do it
42:18in 30 days.
42:21It's a hotbed
42:22of corruption.
42:23It's a lack
42:23of political commitment.
42:24And I tell you,
42:26it's called
42:26failing the people.
42:28Well, it's a corrupt
42:29conspiracy of collusion.
42:31That's very clear.
42:32I appreciate both you gentlemen
42:33for joining us.
42:34We're going to keep
42:34a keen eye
42:35on all developments
42:36of this story.
42:36We're not going to let it go.
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