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00:00Welcome to Crime Night. I'm Julia Zemiro. This is the show where we take a look at the
00:18myths, motives and the psychology that drives people to commit crimes. Tonight we're looking
00:23at the power of conformity and its role in crime, the social pressure that drives otherwise
00:28sensible people to make decisions they'll come to regret. Completely unrelated, let's
00:32meet who's decided to join us tonight. Dean at Griffith University, Professor of Criminology
00:38and a genuine crime expert. When she talks, even the suspects take notes. Please welcome
00:43Professor Danielle Reynolds. Danielle, how many people does crime actually affect?
00:51Crime affects everyone, Julia. That's why you should watch Crime Night so you can learn
00:55all about it. Wow. She's only been here two minutes and she's already doing some nice
00:59self-promotion. Thank you. He is a leading expert on fraud and white-collar crime and unlike
01:05the criminals he studies, his credentials are legit. It's Dr. David Bartlett. David, when
01:14you're at a dinner party and people find out you're a criminologist, do they treat you differently?
01:18Sometimes people start to look really nervous. Do they? Can you give advice? Oh, I try and avoid it.
01:24Wow, what are you doing here? Joining our experts, she's a comedian and podcaster who's never
01:32met a bad idea she couldn't be talked into. It's Claire Hoover. Claire, are you here tonight
01:39under peer pressure? No, I've just come to learn how to do crimes, Julia. He is a comedian, radio
01:48host, and against all professional advice, he's here representing himself. Please welcome
01:52Nick Honey. Always represent yourself. Have you done it before? Have you represented yourself
02:01in court? No, but I did legal studies year 10, so I'm good to go. When you picture a criminal,
02:07you probably imagine a lone wolf. But often crime isn't about rebellion at all. It's about
02:11belonging. Because ultimately, we just want to be accepted, right? That's what everyone else
02:16thinks. I mean, I'm happy to be wrong, whatever you reckon's best. Conformity has been powerful
02:22since the beginning. In prehistoric times, outsiders perished, insiders got fire and shelter. Psychologists
02:29say we read rejection as danger, and you don't have to look far to see social conformity everywhere.
02:35Standing ovations, waiting till everyone's food has arrived, and pretending we understood
02:39what that TV show Severance was all about. But what happens when that pressure pushes you
02:45to accept what's clearly wrong? That was the question posed in the 1950s by psychologist
02:51and bona fide life of the party, Solomon Asch. His now-famous experiments showed just how quickly
02:57group pressure can steamroll your better judgment. The experiment you'll be taking part in today
03:02involves the perception of lengths of lines. Your task is a very simple one. You're to look at the
03:07line on the left and determine which of the three lines on the right is equal to it in length.
03:11Sorry to interrupt, but is anyone shocked that crime can be explained by a group of men alone
03:17in a room measuring lines? Sorry, carry on. Only one of the people in the group is a real subject,
03:23the fifth person with the white t-shirt. The others have been told to give wrong answers
03:28on some of the trials. The experiment begins smoothly with everyone giving the correct answer,
03:32but then it takes a turn. Two. Two. Two. The subject denies the evidence of his own eyes and yields
03:45to group influence. How does this experiment help us with our understanding of crime? So we think
03:50about in terms of, say, the recent Royal Commission into Banking. Oh yeah, let's talk about the Royal
03:55Commission into Banking. Yes! I knew this was going to be fun. Yeah. I knew it. Let's go. Well, some of us think
04:01this is exciting, right? No, but no, but it was, we remember it so clearly and it was an absolute
04:05disaster. It was. It was an unmitigated disaster. So what it showed is that there was extensive
04:10offending throughout the financial services sector. Now, when you think about it, lots and lots of
04:14people knew that this was going on, but very few actually put their hand up to say, hey, this is
04:18happening and it's wrong. Think about a new grad. So you've just finished university, you go get a job
04:23in a bank and you go in there and you think, hang on, this is wrong, but you see everyone else doing it.
04:28So you do, you start to question your own judgment and you're thinking, hang on, this must be the way
04:32it's done. We don't do psychology experiments like this anymore. These are so beautiful and they're
04:37so simple because they highlight just these fundamental basic social norms that we all
04:43adhere to. All of our behavior is underpinned by these basic principles. So a third of participants
04:49conformed with the clearly wrong answers that the group provided. And that pretty much suggests that
04:55in any situation, a third of us are likely to conform even when we know what we're conforming
05:00to is wrong. Now, is it that they're conforming or just a third of people need glasses?
05:06Let's expand it out a bit. Let's think about property crime and violent crime. You can think
05:10about it like this. Sometimes you hear cases where there's groups of people, might be four or five
05:14people together. One of them decides to commit an offence and the others just go along with it.
05:19And part of this experiment helps to explain that because they're not prepared to put their
05:24hand up and say, hey, this isn't right. But there is a bit of a difference between measuring
05:28a line and crossing a line, isn't it? Because your mistakes aren't that high. You'd be like,
05:34yeah, I think they're all wrong, but also who cares? Right? But we can conform in negative ways
05:39as well. You know, a classic example of staying silent when you see something bad happening.
05:44Silence can be conformity too. And we see this all the time, like on public transport
05:48and public places, where, and I'm sure lots of people have had the experience where you
05:52see something but you don't actually step in and intervene. I think of times that I've seen
05:56something like a little, you know, where you're keeping an eye on something that looks a little
06:00bit off, but you're also like, mate, I'm not the strongest person on this train.
06:05Have you ever looked around and seen all the big guys that are still sitting down?
06:08Yeah. They haven't intervened as well. Yeah, and I, um, I'm very unimpressed by this.
06:14Ash proved we'll follow the crowd even when the answer's obviously wrong. Online, the crowd
06:21just got bigger and way more persuasive. With more, here's Lou Wall.
06:26It's no secret humans love to conform. I love it. I love it. Yeah. I don't mind it myself.
06:33Back in the analogue days, it was all about getting the same haircut as everyone else or
06:37pretending to love that one show we were all talking about. How good was Friends last night?
06:41Stuff. So good. Your hair looks great. Your hair looks great.
06:47Now, conformity has had a digital glow-up. Literally, it's all like, share, repeat algorithms.
06:52Love it when we copy each other. It keeps us trending, even for a hot minute.
06:57Like and subscribe, guys. Who are you talking to? You know, everyone.
07:01Whether it is swallowing a spoonful of cinnamon. Pouring an ice bucket over our head.
07:09Or eating a Tide Pod. Wellness has gone too far.
07:14No! You know what happened last time. They went viral.
07:18And they went to hospital.
07:20Social media has embraced our desire to conform and amplified it.
07:24It's so easy to get caught up. One post and boom, everyone's doing it.
07:29Some of us is still paying for it. Water. I need water.
07:33But while we're all still busy planking and flossing, social media algorithms are busy feeding us the next online craze.
07:40It's like an online applause track. It keeps us coming back for more. And we do.
07:44Thank you at p-slash-underscore-1999.
07:48We're all hardwired to fit in and find our community.
07:51Whether that's watching friends or sucking down some cinnamon.
07:56Online conformity is just the new frontier.
07:58Anyone for Kool-Aid?
08:00No.
08:01No.
08:05Being a part of something bigger than yourself feels nice.
08:08But on the spectrum from a horse-riding club to a club that sells horse, when does your squad become a gang?
08:15Australians are fascinated by a criminal culture.
08:18From the moment Ned Kelly put a bucket on his head, criminal cliques, gangs and underworld associations have dominated our headlines.
08:25And even kept whole TV networks afloat.
08:28In the suburbs of 70s Melbourne, one such group rose to prominence.
08:32A gang so menacing, so ominous, the very sight of them struck fear into the public's heart.
08:38OK, sorry.
08:44We should have given you a warning before showing you that.
08:46The Sharpies, named after their signature sharp outfits.
08:50And I'd imagine the type of pain those jeans caused them.
08:53Were a teenage subculture that exploded onto the streets of Melbourne.
08:57Predating punk, they were a uniquely Aussie movement.
09:00And the conformity was strong.
09:01With their own dance, tattoos and a very precise uniform.
09:05Another important marker of the Sharps?
09:07The hair.
09:09Who cut your hair?
09:10Grant.
09:11Who cut your hair?
09:12Grant.
09:12Who cut your hair?
09:13Grant.
09:16Grant did not cut my hair.
09:18The Sharpies were a reaction to the suburban status quo.
09:22Proudly working class, they rejected the blonde surfies, the carefree hippies and the soft vibes of their mortal enemies.
09:28The mods.
09:29Were the Sharpies a gang though?
09:31The media sure thought so.
09:32At most of the discotheques and dancers, there's the danger of brawls between the Sharpies and the mods.
09:38How vicious do these fights get?
09:40They kick.
09:40When a chap goes to the ground, he can be knocked out and they'll still kick.
09:43There's been already one killed.
09:44He was killed that way.
09:45He was kicked after he went to the ground.
09:47The Sharpies didn't start as a gang.
09:50They were a movement.
09:51So how did they become violent?
09:53Their version of events is that their violence was simply retaliatory.
09:56So they were actually the subject of violence themselves and their violence was just in response to that.
10:00And they were fighting over things like access to public spaces.
10:04So like the clocks at Flinders Street, they were fighting over who could have access to that space.
10:08What?
10:08It's just so...
10:10I love stuff about gangs and this does not sound like gang.
10:17I grew up in Hopper's Crossing.
10:19Like, mates were in gangs and I never heard any of this chat.
10:23What gangs are in your area?
10:25Well, there was one in Hopper's Crossing called the HCB Boys.
10:28Hopper's Crossing Boys.
10:30That's original.
10:31They're a little bit dangerous, but that's more like machetes and guns and less.
10:38Grant, cut my hair.
10:41Watch out.
10:42It was a bit of a moral panic, to be honest.
10:44So a moral panic is this exaggerated fear, usually driven by the media and to some extent public figures,
10:50around a particular group or thing being seen as a threat to society and threat to societal values.
10:55And we see moral panics all the time.
10:57If you go back 20 years, hoodies.
10:59There was moral panic around hoodies.
11:00And some shopping centres even banned the wearing of hoodies in their shopping centre.
11:04Yeah, didn't have the courage to ban hoodies, though, did they?
11:09Danielle, why do people feel compelled to join groups like these?
11:12You know, these types of groups really created this space where people who were marginalised
11:17could feel like they had a place where they belonged.
11:20They created a sense of community that people felt like they could belong to.
11:24The irony with these groups is that they were rebelling against societal norms
11:28only to join a group that created norms that they all had to conform to anyway.
11:35So even when we're rebelling, we're conforming.
11:36Yeah.
11:37And conformity to group standards leads to some of the most serious crime that we know about.
11:41I mean, think about the mafia and conformity.
11:44That's like a classic example of Ash's conformity studies, but on crack.
11:49You think about the characteristics of the mafia, a really strong sense of group identity.
11:54They have these really strict codes that all members have to conform to unanimously.
11:59And you think about the implications of nonconformity for that group.
12:03In the Ash study, a lot of people conformed and the implications were feeling socially isolated
12:10and feeling socially embarrassed.
12:11Like, the implications for nonconformity in groups like the mafia are way more severe.
12:17Being ostracised from your family, violence, and sometimes even death.
12:21Claire, I don't know why.
12:23I wonder that you might have been part of a gang or a group.
12:26Oh!
12:27I mean, I feel like comedy's a bit of a gang, don't you think?
12:31You know, like, because think of how worried your friends and family were when you started.
12:35But when the money starts to roll in, they stop asking questions.
12:42It's time for our experiment of the week.
12:47They say looking up is contagious.
12:50One glance at the sky and suddenly you're worried you've missed a shooting star,
12:53a falling air conditioner, or a billionaire re-entering the atmosphere.
12:58So we thought, what happens if we start the crowd?
13:01We sent three Crime Night actors out to look up at absolutely nothing.
13:06Will anyone else follow suit?
13:08Let's find out.
13:39If you're hearing a bit of a rumble in the room,
13:48it might be because some of you are starting to recognise our three friends.
13:52We planted them in the foyer earlier tonight,
13:55just to see if anyone would follow their lead.
13:59It didn't take long before a few of you started to look up.
14:02And shortly after,
14:08the conformity became contagious.
14:11Danielle, did this audience experiment confirm what we already know?
14:25This is based off of a classic experiment called the street corner experiment.
14:30It's a classic study in conformity in showing that we definitely follow the crowd
14:36and the size of the crowd matters.
14:38David, do we follow or mimic any old person?
14:41No, no.
14:42So in another street level study,
14:43researchers looked at who people follow jaywalking.
14:47So, and what they found, it's quite interesting,
14:48what they found is that people who appeared to be of high status,
14:51if a guy's wearing a suit and tie, for example,
14:53if they jaywalked first,
14:54other people were more likely to jaywalk following them
14:57than if they were a person wearing normal street clothes.
14:59Do you think that's because someone in a suit
15:01you might look at as more risk-averse?
15:03You think they're not someone that's just going to walk out,
15:05have no idea what's going on?
15:06They're in a suit.
15:07I've got to follow you now, wherever.
15:10What, do you want me to buy Bitcoin?
15:11No, all right.
15:13You've got a nice jacket on.
15:14I think you've proved the experiment.
15:16That was our experiment of the week.
15:18Twelve strangers, one courtroom,
15:24and a decision that could change someone's life forever.
15:27That's the power vested to a jury.
15:29Juries bring to a case their personal perspectives
15:31and their varying experiences of life,
15:33but basically, they're just a potluck of people.
15:36Everyone brings something to the table
15:38and not all of it agrees with you.
15:44But when you ask strangers to reach a verdict,
15:46the pressure to go along with the group increases
15:48and, worryingly, even in a jury room,
15:51the urge to fit in can shape the outcome.
15:53Typically, juries are expected to reach a unanimous decision.
15:57In 19th century England, those who couldn't
15:59were often denied food and heat
16:01and sometimes even paraded around in a wagon
16:04until they came to a verdict.
16:07I'm glad you all think that's hilarious.
16:11Starved, frozen and wheeled through London,
16:13the original 19th century Contiki tour.
16:16In Australia, the law forbids jurors
16:22from speaking out about their experiences,
16:24so we don't get to see what happens behind closed doors.
16:27But the SBS series The Jury, Death on the Staircase,
16:30offers a rare glimpse.
16:32The program recreated a real-life manslaughter case
16:35using the original evidence and arguments presented in court,
16:38but with a mock jury made up of everyday Australians
16:41that we could observe.
16:42It might only be a social experiment,
16:45but the tension?
16:46Very real.
16:47All the jurors,
16:48apart from Craig,
16:49want to deliver a verdict of not guilty.
16:52Can they convince him to change his mind?
16:55Previously, you said,
16:56I'm highly unlikely to change my mind,
16:58but you didn't say impossible.
17:00So what would cause you to have doubt?
17:02Out of doubt?
17:03Nothing.
17:04So it's impossible?
17:04The only reason I'd change my mind
17:06is I'd want to go home.
17:07One juror held out,
17:08but in the end,
17:09it wasn't the evidence that changed his mind.
17:11It was the pressure he felt to agree with the group.
17:14Okay, you's a win.
17:15He's guilty.
17:16Let's go home.
17:18I said, you's a win.
17:19He's guilty.
17:20Let's go.
17:20Not guilty, sorry.
17:21I'm just angry at myself
17:22because I caved.
17:24Now, yeah, I felt like
17:25I'd let a criminal go free.
17:28Yeah, absolutely.
17:29Now, that was a recreation
17:30and a mock case,
17:31but he still feels the effect of what he's done.
17:33He didn't stick to his own beliefs.
17:36Danielle, how often do juries feel pressure
17:38to reach a verdict?
17:39It's impossible to say
17:41because we're not allowed to talk to jurors.
17:43The law prohibits that,
17:44but there was one study done in Western Australia,
17:47and the study showed that 21% of jurors,
17:50real jurors,
17:51who participated on juries,
17:53talked about the fact
17:54that they did feel pressure
17:55to come to a particular decision,
17:58and something like three-quarters of them
18:00said that they experienced pressure
18:01from other jurors.
18:03There are quite a few studies done,
18:05particularly in the US,
18:06with mock juries,
18:07and they show that 40% of jurors
18:10reported that they felt pressure
18:12to vote against their conscience
18:14just so that they could come
18:15to a unanimous verdict.
18:17Why can't we just have,
18:18why can't we just go with a majority rule?
18:20There's 12 people in a jury.
18:21Why not?
18:22If there's just seven that agree,
18:23we can go with that.
18:24I think unanimity,
18:25like when you have 12 people on a jury
18:28who unanimously agree on a verdict,
18:30it gives people greater confidence
18:32in the verdict that's delivered.
18:33Right, so if somebody's going to get,
18:35like, 10 years in prison,
18:36if 12 people say they're guilty,
18:39it feels a bit icky
18:40if they get 10 years in prison
18:42because seven people said they were guilty.
18:44Is that what you're saying?
18:45Exactly.
18:45I think people have greater confidence, right?
18:48They say, hey, 12 out of 12 people,
18:5012 people from completely different backgrounds
18:52have sat in a room,
18:54have deliberated the facts of the case,
18:56and have come to a unanimous verdict.
18:58I think people feel much more confident
19:00in that verdict.
19:01Maybe they'd feel even better
19:03if they knew those people
19:04had been carried around in a car.
19:07Your pride loves them.
19:09How do you deal with the Craig problem?
19:11So we get around a couple of ways.
19:13So one is that the directions
19:15that the judge gives a jury,
19:16so making that clear
19:17about what they have to deliberate and how.
19:19But the other thing is most jurists,
19:21in fact, all Australian jurisdictions now,
19:23have the ability to go for majority judgements
19:26rather than unanimous.
19:28In a majority judgment,
19:29there's sort of room for dissenters,
19:31like one or two dissenters.
19:32But there's rules around this.
19:33So, for example, in New South Wales,
19:35if a jury's deliberated for at least eight hours
19:38and the judge is satisfied
19:39that they can't reach a unanimous verdict,
19:42they can actually allow a majority verdict.
19:45So one or two people to dissent.
19:47But still, for charges of murder and treason,
19:50you still require that unanimous verdict.
19:52You could go to jail
19:53because 12 people just got tired.
19:55Some of these juries deliberate for weeks.
19:58And they come back every day into that jury room
20:00to continue going through the evidence
20:02and discussing and that sort of thing.
20:04So it's not a quick process.
20:06If you think about the practicalities of it,
20:08like digging your heels in and being like,
20:10no, let's keep debating this
20:11because I don't agree with you guys.
20:13Like practically,
20:14like this takes so much time out of your real life.
20:17How many people would do that?
20:18But I'm doing it for my fellow citizens.
20:20But, yeah, that's right.
20:22Tara and I are going to start a club.
20:24It's a wonderful thing to do.
20:25A little break from your everyday life.
20:27Yes.
20:27Opportunity to serve your community.
20:29Free horse and carriage ride.
20:31What's not to love?
20:34Hands up if you've ever been asked for jury duty.
20:37Oh.
20:37Oh, wow.
20:38Oh, my goodness.
20:39That's so many people.
20:40And who actually got to go?
20:42Oh, you can't say.
20:43You can't say.
20:44Almost got you.
20:47We're actually the police.
20:51Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do
20:53is not conform,
20:55especially when you know something is wrong.
20:57Remember cigarettes?
20:58Yep.
20:59There was a time when they were practically
21:06part of the food pyramid.
21:07It wasn't just common.
21:08It was cool.
21:10Parents smoked.
21:11Teachers smoked.
21:12Doctors smoked.
21:14We knew they were bad for us,
21:15but we also knew we could quit any time.
21:17They weren't addictive.
21:18Just ask seven CEOs
21:20from the world's biggest tobacco companies in 1994.
21:23I believe that nicotine is not addictive.
21:27I believe that nicotine is not addictive.
21:30And I, too, believe that nicotine is not addictive.
21:33Seven CEOs,
21:35if you ask me,
21:36the worst of the 12 days of Christmas.
21:37In front of the world,
21:44they denied the truth.
21:45Nicotine was dangerous and addictive,
21:47but it was also making them buckets of cash.
21:49It felt like the glory days of dart punching
21:51would never end
21:52until one of their own went rogue.
21:54This is whistleblower Jeffrey Wigand.
21:56Wigand was a scientist and an executive
21:58inside one of those very tobacco companies.
22:01He knew the truth,
22:02that he was working in a business built on addiction.
22:04Nicotine was not addictive.
22:06Cigarettes were not a health threat.
22:09White was not white,
22:10and I was living a lie.
22:11When he realised how far they were willing to go
22:14to keep people hooked on nicotine,
22:15Wigand gave interviews and testified in court.
22:18Like so many whistleblowers,
22:19telling the truth came at a huge personal cost.
22:22Bic tobacco went for Wigand.
22:24Hard.
22:25He was fired,
22:26surveilled,
22:26smeared,
22:27sued,
22:28and his family were threatened.
22:29I was not protected by any whistleblower statute,
22:32and I had no recourse except the truth.
22:35Many have gone through the hellish,
22:37life-changing experience like mine.
22:39Whistleblowers like Wigand are responsible
22:41for detecting over 40% of corporate fraud in the US.
22:45That's more than audits and regulators combined.
22:48Wigand's evidence helped trigger
22:49one of the biggest legal settlements in history,
22:52and millions of people quit smoking.
22:54One person,
22:55swimming against the tide of conformity.
22:58Geoffrey Wigand was the straw that broke Camel's back.
23:01Hey!
23:01And for those of you under 30,
23:06Camel is a brand of cigarette.
23:12And for those under 20,
23:14cigarettes are a kind of...
23:16David, how important is whistleblowing?
23:20Well, whistleblowing and whistleblowers
23:22are incredibly important.
23:23Quite often,
23:24the only reason that wrongdoing comes to our attention
23:26is because of whistleblowers.
23:28But these people go out on a massive limb.
23:30Quite often, they're breaching non-disclosure agreements,
23:33breaching company policies.
23:35Wigand ended up getting sued by his employer
23:38because he breached a confidentiality agreement.
23:40So there's a whole lot of obstacles
23:41putting people's way to whistleblow.
23:44In Australia, it's a bit cultural as well,
23:46but we don't dob.
23:47Like, even from little kids,
23:48we're taught not to dob.
23:50And whistleblowing is still sort of thought about
23:52in terms of being dobbing.
23:53But there's a huge difference
23:54between that kind of dobbing idea in a playground
23:56and this monumental thing you might do
23:59to literally change the course of history
24:01when it comes to something like cigarettes.
24:03Yeah, absolutely.
24:04But it's so ingrained from so young
24:05that you just don't tell.
24:07Now, some organisations try and overcome this,
24:10so they'll create, like, whistleblower hotlines
24:11where, you know, it might be, like, a 1-800 number
24:14you can call...
24:14Come on.
24:15No-one's fallen for that.
24:17Let's go straight to HR.
24:19You hope not.
24:22Yeah.
24:22But there are some strategies put in place
24:23to try and overcome it.
24:25But there's still massive obstacles
24:26to people actually whistleblowing.
24:29Now, one of them is, of course,
24:31that people sometimes lose their careers.
24:33Like, in some industries, if you whistleblow,
24:35you'll never work in that industry again.
24:37And that's why, in the US,
24:39whistleblowers are actually paid.
24:41So whistleblowers will get between 10% and 30%
24:43of the amount recovered paid to them.
24:45So the Securities and Exchange Commission in the US
24:49up to about 2023 had paid out
24:52almost $2 billion to whistleblowers.
24:55I need a job in a dodgy big American company.
24:59Danielle, are some people more likely
25:01to be whistleblowers than others?
25:02There are some characteristics that define whistleblowers.
25:06High or strong moral conviction and moral courage,
25:10so an unwillingness to compromise their moral principles,
25:13high levels of self-efficacy
25:16and what we call internal locus of control,
25:18which pretty much just means that
25:20there is a high likelihood in their belief
25:22that their actions will result in an outcome.
25:26And I think the last one, which is my favorite,
25:28is that they tend to be low to moderate
25:29on what we call in psychology agreeableness,
25:32which means that they're willing to be disliked.
25:34They have no issues challenging people,
25:37even if it means that it's going to result in conflict.
25:40And that's what ASH's conformity studies show, right?
25:43That's one of the reasons why they're so special,
25:45is that one of the powerful results from those studies
25:48is that it only takes one person to dissent,
25:51one person to refuse to conform to change the tide
25:55for all the people that come after.
25:57We know this takes an incredible toll on people.
26:00So it's not just financial, it's also personal.
26:02So if you think about the woman
26:03who was one of the main whistleblowers in the Robodeck case,
26:06you know, a decade later,
26:07she's still talking about the toll that's taken on her
26:10in terms of watching herself lose a career,
26:14but then also the personal toll on her private life.
26:17If we see injustice occurring, David, Danielle,
26:21how can we give ourselves the confidence to actually speak up?
26:23We need to talk to other people.
26:25Like, if you're embedded in an organization
26:26and in a culture where something's wrong
26:29and everyone's doing it,
26:30if you're at least having that conversation with friends
26:32about, hey, this doesn't feel right, what do you think?
26:35You're sort of building that social support around yourself
26:37for actually going, you know what, I'm right.
26:39You know, this is wrong and I'm going to blow the whistle.
26:42But how many people actually do find that kind of,
26:44you know, moral courage, if that's what you want to call it?
26:47And, I mean, courage, full stop.
26:49Yeah, courage, full stop, I agree.
26:50I think that it's rare.
26:52I think that the thing that research shows
26:54is that the majority of people are perfectly happy
26:57not to intervene when they see something going wrong,
27:00but there is a minority of people,
27:02you can think of them as superheroes
27:04who will intervene regardless of the context
27:07and regardless of the risk that it poses to them
27:10and their personal safety.
27:12Claire, what would you want to blow the whistle on?
27:14Oh, I mean, I don't like the repercussions of this,
27:19but all right.
27:21Making TV's really easy and we get paid too much.
27:26Come on!
27:27They even sent a taxi for me!
27:30Come on!
27:31You'd have to say, maybe not on ABC and SBS, though.
27:38Nick, what do you want to blow the whistle on?
27:40I think blokes that play golf just don't like their family.
27:50It's a waste of time and it sucks.
27:52And I'm putting an end to it.
27:54Please thank our guests, Claire Hooper and Nick Cody.
27:57And, of course, to our resident experts,
28:04Professor Danielle Raynald and Dr David Bartlett.
28:11This week on Crimelight, we found that whether it's fitting in
28:14or staying quiet, conformity can lead to everything
28:16from fraud to bad verdicts to regrettable haircuts.
28:20It's powerful, no doubt,
28:21but is it more powerful than speaking up?
28:23Hard to say.
28:25I'll probably wait and see what everyone else thinks.
28:27I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:28Good night.
28:29I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:30I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:30I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:31I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:31I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:32I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:32I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:33I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:33I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:33I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:34I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:34I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:34I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:34I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:35I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:35I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:35I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:36I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:36I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:37I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:38I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:38I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:39I'm Julia Zemiro.
28:40I'm Julia Zemiro.
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