- 3 hours ago
On this Special Report, Senior Executive Editor Gaurav Sawant anchors a debate on Defense Minister Rajnath Singh’s controversial statement that Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru wanted to use government funds to build the Babri Masjid. Speaking at a Unity March in Vadodara, Singh claimed, ‘Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru wanted to build the Babri Masjid using public funds. If anyone opposed this proposal, it was Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel.’ BJP National Spokesperson Dr. Ajay Alok defends the claim citing 1949 cabinet archives, while Congress National Spokesperson Dr. Shama Mohammed dismisses it as a distraction from pollution and demands documentary evidence. Activist Saira Shah Halim and Professor Geeta Bhatt also debate the historical accuracy and the definition of secularism.
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00:00So what should one make of Defence Minister Rajnath Singh's statement, the timing of the statement and the response of the opposition?
00:06Joining me on India first is Dr. Ajay Alok, National Spokesperson of the BJP.
00:10Dr. Shama Mohammed is the National Spokesperson of the Congress.
00:13Shaira Sahaleem is an activist and author.
00:16Professor Geeta Bhatt is an academic and analyst joining us on this special broadcast.
00:20Dr. Ajay Alok, Congress asks, where is the evidence to prove Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru sought treasury funds,
00:27government money to build Babri Masjid and Sardar Patel opposed it?
00:37If you go through the cabinet archives of 1949 when the first government was formed and Jawaharlal Nehru became the Prime Minister way back in 1946,
00:45in 1949 the proposal very much came there and which was absolutely rejected by none other than Sardar Vallabh Bhai Patel.
00:52And in the contrary, Mr. Nehru said that what was the need for the Somnath Temple,
00:56to which the answer came, what he just now said,
00:58that the Somnath Temple is completely funded by the people who have collected 30 lakhs for its renovation.
01:05The bus didn't stop here, Rostu.
01:08When Dr. Ajay Indi Prashad was invited to inaugurate the Somnath Temple,
01:12Mr. Nehru objected to it, which is there in the written, again.
01:15A letter was written that you should not go, because India being a secular country,
01:19you should not go to inaugurate a temple.
01:22This legacy continued.
01:24It didn't stop here only.
01:26If you remember, after 1991, the late Prime Minister Narasimha Rao, on the floor of the House,
01:31he said that the new Babri Masjid will be constructed by the government.
01:35So this kept on happening.
01:36This appeasement politics continued before the independence, after independence,
01:42and this legacy was carried out by the Gandhi family continuously till now.
01:46And till today, even in Bengal, we have heard somebody is making Babri Masjid from TNC, MLA.
01:53Okay, Dr. Shama Mohammed, the BJP accuses the Congress of appeasement politics
01:59and says there's a long history from the time of Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru.
02:03The BJP claims it reflects an anti-Hindu mindset of the Congress.
02:09The stance, you know, two aspects being raised.
02:11One, hostile on the Somnath Temple.
02:15Two, you know, Dr. Rajendra Prasad attending it.
02:18Rajanath Singh's statement that, you know, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru wanted government funds
02:24for Babri Masjid construction, madam.
02:27Gaurav Savant, I have known you for years.
02:29You are a good anchor, a good journalist, and you go by facts and evidences.
02:35I'm so shocked that you're doing a show on what Rajanath Singh said.
02:39Now, Dr. Ajay Alok spoke.
02:42He never said anywhere in what he said, he said Pandit Nehru was against Somnath.
02:46He said he went on to what is the other person, Narasimha Rao, our former prime minister,
02:51said this and that.
02:52But nowhere he said what Rajanath Singh said,
02:55that Jawaharlal Nehru wanted funds to build a Babri Masjid.
03:00So that itself, we can understand as no evidence.
03:04Because I'm telling you today, I just got the news, I got a call just now that Rajanath
03:09Singh is converted to Islam.
03:10Do you know that, Gaurav Savant?
03:12I just got a call.
03:13Rajanath Singh is now a Muslim.
03:15So, this is the thing.
03:17You have to do a debate on that now.
03:19Because Rajanath Singh goes out and says something that has happened, which he thinks is right.
03:25Is that the basis of you doing a debate?
03:27Have they shown you any of the evidence?
03:29He's defense minister of India.
03:31I don't give a damn he's a defense minister if he doesn't come out with facts.
03:35I don't care who the hell he is.
03:38There is something.
03:38You're a journalist of caliber.
03:41The BJP has gone mad.
03:44They come out to divert and distract from SIR.
03:47And the most important thing right now, pollution, which is killing Ajay Alok, who's a doctor himself.
03:53He knows what is COPD.
03:55Gaurav Savant, it's killing him.
03:56He lives in Noida and is saying Noida is worse than Delhi and it's killing us and many others.
04:02That's the most important topic.
04:03I want to know, Ajay Alok, I've heard that Rajanath Singh is converted into Islam.
04:08Can you tell me if it's the truth or not?
04:10Okay, Ajay Alok, since there's a direct reference to you, you want to respond to what the Congress
04:14Party spokesperson says both on the issue of the defense.
04:16Because he never said where is the Babri Masjid thing.
04:19You have to show us everything.
04:19Dr. Ajay Alok and Dr. Shamaa Muhammad, we put both the good doctors on screen.
04:24I'm insulting.
04:24One second, one more thing, Gaurav Savant, and insulting the Prime Minister.
04:28Remember, the ban of RSS was done by Sardar Vallapai Patel and not Jawaharlal Nehru.
04:34You keep telling Sardar Vallapai Patel, we are our, stop this bloody nonsense.
04:38Enough is enough, all right?
04:40Do not pick up stories about Pandit Nehru, who is one of the greatest Prime Ministers of
04:44this country.
04:45Enough is enough.
04:45Okay, Dr. Ajay Alok wants to respond, ma'am.
04:47Stories about Narendra Modi, or for that matter, Vajpayee, we will never do that.
04:51Okay.
04:52I guess...
04:52Dr. Ajay Alok.
04:53I guess I...
04:54I guess the sanct...
04:55I guess the...
04:56I don't expect the sanctity of words to be maintained here when it cannot be maintained in the Parliament.
05:00So, all the slangs of bloody and I don't care and I give a damn, keep it to yourself.
05:06We also don't care and we give a damn.
05:08And I guess you didn't hear my initial statement when I said in 1949 a cabinet proposal came
05:13to fund Babi Majid, for which the documented evidence is there, in the archives of the government
05:17of India.
05:18That is a fact.
05:19Don't run away.
05:21And if Sardar Vallapai Patel banned...
05:22Do it to me.
05:23Don't shout in between.
05:24Do it to me.
05:24Don't shout in between.
05:25Don't shout in between.
05:26I have to...
05:27Because you're talking nonsense.
05:28One by one.
05:29You're talking nonsense.
05:29One by one.
05:30We have already shown.
05:31We had already shown.
05:33Lick, lick.
05:34One by one.
05:34It doesn't go like this.
05:35Okay.
05:36Keep your...
05:36Dr. Shama Mohammed and Dr. Ajay Alok on air, please.
05:38We are going to be like this for the next 30-40 years.
05:41We have...
05:41Yeah.
05:43Go on, Dr. Alok.
05:44We have already shown the late Subhash Chandra Bose diary.
05:47We are already in the process of showing many things, which is hidden, which is not there
05:51in the history, which is going to be the part of the history, which is troubling you,
05:53which is troubling you, which is troubling you.
05:55If Sardar Patel banned us, if Sardar Patel banned us, he says, why do you
05:59Why are you shouting in between?
06:01Okay.
06:01One by one.
06:02You can see the anxiety.
06:03Okay.
06:03Dr. Shama Mohammed.
06:05Dr. Shama Mohammed.
06:05Dr. Shama Mohammed.
06:06Let, let, let, let Dr. Ajay Alok make his point, madam.
06:10Let Dr. Ajay Alok make his point.
06:12I'll come back to you.
06:12I'll come back to you.
06:13I don't want to go beyond evidence.
06:15Where is the evidence when you accuse a former prime minister who is not alive to defend himself?
06:22I want evidence.
06:22The anxiety and irritability.
06:24Yes, Dr. Ajay Alok.
06:25Your, your anxiety and irritability cannot change the facts.
06:32These are the facts.
06:33And if Sardar Patel banned, RSS, after the death of Mahas Pagandhi, Sardar Patel only lifted
06:38the ban, Sardar Patel only lifted the ban, you know, he lifted, you know, he, he heard
06:44you, hear him out.
06:45I'll come back to you, madam.
06:46Just hear him out.
06:47I can hear something which is nonsensical, Gaurav, where are the evidence, evidence, see
06:51he's a doctor, a disease has got, we do evidence-based facts.
06:54This is nothing but, this is nothing but the anxiety.
06:57So, you, the anxiety of hiding the, hiding the truth.
07:01This is nothing but the anxiety of hiding the truth.
07:03That why, why this truth is.
07:04What you are, mind your language, enough, enough, I've heard you enough, bloody, bloody,
07:12bloody, what do you think you are, you can speak anything, any nonsense on the TV and get
07:16away with it, mind your language, I'm being courteous on the substantive issue, on the
07:20substantive issue, evidence, we are not discussing our personal matters here, when I'm saying one
07:30after the other thing, listen to me, only Dr. Ajay Alok, so that he can make the point.
07:36Dr. Shama Mohammed, just let Dr. Ajay Alok complete his point.
07:40I'm coming back to you.
07:41Dr. Alok, complete your point, sir.
07:45One after the other, we have given the evidence and we'll come out with this evidence also that
07:49there was a cabinet proposal in which Nehru proposed that the Babri Masjid be built
07:53to maintain the mutual trust post 1948 communal rights, let's build the Babri Masjid, it came
07:59up in the cabinet.
08:00You know, every cabinet proposal, whether accepted or rejected, is kept in the government
08:04archive.
08:04It's there for everyone to see.
08:06Congress knows this very well.
08:07Now, they are afraid that if we bring out this, this will open another Pandora's box.
08:12Secondly, second thing, if Sardar Patel banned RSS, Sardar Patel only lifted RSS, the ban on
08:17RSS, and he wrote a good comprehensive three pages letter which is there in the documented
08:21evidence.
08:22And she talks about RSS.
08:24It was Mr. Nehru only who invited RSS post-China war to participate in a Republic Day parade.
08:30She conveniently forgets everything.
08:32This Congress party banned RSS thrice after that, during emergency, which was lifted by
08:36court.
08:3791 post-Babri Masjid demolition lifted by court.
08:38I want to once again come back to a substantive issue of Pandit Jawahar and Nehru.
08:43This is the essence of this country.
08:44Okay, Dr. Shama Mohammed, the BJP has also quoted an excerpt from the inside story of
08:51Sardar Patel, the diary of Mani Ben Patel, which reads and I quote and I put that quote
08:55out in public domain for our viewers also.
08:59It says, Nehru also raised the issue, the question of Babri Masjid, but Sardar made it
09:04clear that the government could not spend any money for building a mosque.
09:09And then it goes on to give a reason.
09:10Would you want to respond to Mani Ben Patel's book?
09:13No, no, no, Gaurav, I can write a book.
09:15Some idiot can write a book saying that, you know,
09:17Ma'am, this is Sardar Patel's daughter.
09:20You know, no, no, listen to me.
09:22I don't care who it is.
09:23I want to see evidence from...
09:25She's calling Sardar Patel's daughter an idiot.
09:28What kind of a language is being used?
09:30I want to see evidence.
09:31Parliament is called somebody cutta hai, dustta hai.
09:33Yes, she's using all kinds of bloody slang and all idiot and all.
09:36Dr. Alok, let Dr. Mohamad complete her point, sir.
09:39We have put to your ear the abusers of Congress.
09:43Yes.
09:43No, I request all my guests.
09:45I request my guests to keep the language civil.
09:48You know, this is a show which is widely watched by families and children.
09:53But Dr. Mohamad, complete your point, ma'am.
09:55My point is very simple.
09:57Listen to me, Gaurav.
09:59You are a senior journalist.
10:01You can't accuse a prime minister of somebody writing a book or something else.
10:06We don't know what happened there.
10:08Just bring out...
10:09He says it's in the archives.
10:10Bring it out tomorrow.
10:12Rajnath said you bring it out and put it out there.
10:14This is there or where there is that letter from Jawaharlal Nehru to Patel.
10:20I mean, you can't...
10:21You know, you can't do this.
10:22Enough is enough.
10:23Tomorrow, I can say so-and-so was behind the Gujarat riots or somebody else converted into...
10:29And who went to Jinnah's grave?
10:31Who went to Jinnah's grave?
10:32It was Advani.
10:33Nobody from our party.
10:35Jinnah's grave, Advani went there.
10:36One of their tallest leaders.
10:38So, that is called evidence.
10:41That's a fact because we have evidence.
10:43Now, you come out and see...
10:43Ajay Alok, give me a moment.
10:47Okay, fair enough.
10:48You're saying bring out that evidence in public domain and let it not be just anecdotal references.
10:53You know, and we have great respect for Sardar Patel and Maniwain Patel as far as India today is concerned.
11:01Saira Shahalim, is Rajnath Singh as Defence Minister of India exposing the double standards of the so-called secularism in India?
11:10Nehru, according to Rajnath Singh, was okay with government money being used for Babri Masjid,
11:17but opposed President, then President Dr. Rajendra Prasad or even Sardar Patel going for Somnath Temple inauguration?
11:24Are these double standards of Indian secularism?
11:27Is this what BJP describes as Muslim appeasement politics?
11:30And that Sardar Patel had to clarify government money was not being used for the construction of Somnath Temple.
11:37It was trust money that was used.
11:39So firstly, good evening, Gaurav.
11:41Let's be very clear one thing, that BJP is right now on a desperate mission to claim Sardar Patel and Dr. Amitkar as his own, like I said.
11:51So it's not really about Babri Masjid or Nehru.
11:54The question is about Sardar Patel, who actually wanted the artists to be banned.
11:59So I don't know whether to laugh or to cry, but BJP really needs to steal independence heroes, because all they have is Sardar Patel.
12:07Now, point two, the Liberian Commission has already held that the demolition of Babri Masjid was not a spontaneous crowd-driven accident,
12:16but a result of a meticulous planning, you know, and it explicitly named senior artists' BJP figures
12:24who were actively or passively involved with this entire demolition, right?
12:28And in other words, the BJP is responsible for the deep communal divide that we get to see in the country.
12:35And Mantriji's sound and light program is basically just a cover-up, right?
12:41So now here, I'm refuting the claim that Nehru planned to use public funds for Babri Masjid.
12:50Firstly, A.
12:51But on what basis?
12:53The strongest point is, where is the archival evidence to prove that?
12:56There should be some documentary evidence to support this specific claim that, yes, Nehru indeed planned to use public funds for Babri Masjid.
13:05Where is the proof?
13:05Because when you look at claims like this, you ask for documentary evidence where there is none.
13:11Secondly, where is the correspondence to substantiate, you know, this, that Nehru proposed,
13:16or rather intended to use government funds for Babri Masjid.
13:21There's no letters, there's no draft, there's no correspondence, none of that at all.
13:26Let me bring in Professor Geetha Bhatt to respond to this.
13:28Professor Bhatt, Professor Bhatt, just on the basis of what Mani Ben Patel wrote, you know,
13:34in the book that Defence Minister Rajnath Singh has made this claim, are we to understand that?
13:38If Pandit Nehru wanted to use government funds for Babri, as, you know, Saira Shah Haleem and Dr. Shama Muhammad asked,
13:47wouldn't there have been letters between Pandit Nehru and Sardar Patel, papers in the cabinet?
13:51Dr. Ajay Alok does refer to a cabinet note, which is yet to be in public domain.
13:57But, Professor Bhatt?
13:58Yes, Gaurav, I think, you know, Sardar Patel has been one of the most tallest leaders in this country,
14:09both figuratively, as well in the literal way, towering presence in the freedom movement,
14:13as well as post-freedom movement, where he played a very, very crucial role in, you know,
14:21integrating the princely states, more than 500 princely states, into the country.
14:25And, you know, when his daughter, Mani Bail Patel, who was also incidentally a member of parliament from Congress Party,
14:35and later on was sent to Rajya Sabha by Congress Party,
14:39it is the collection of her letters, because she spent a large amount of time with her father
14:45during very important meetings which used to take place between political leaders,
14:50before independence and after independence.
14:52So, when she is writing something, and if it is being quoted,
14:57and there is a reference which already has been given by Ajay Alokji,
15:01I think it is important to take note of it.
15:04Some people may disagree with it.
15:06But, no one can disagree that when Ram Mandir Idol was installed in Ayodhya at night in December 1949,
15:15after that, Kandit Nehru had written to the then Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh,
15:21Govind Ballappan, that this installation of idol is illegal and it has to be removed.
15:27This no one can deny.
15:29No one can deny that when Rajendra Prasad, the first president of the country,
15:34when he was going to go to inaugurate the Sonanath Temple,
15:38it has already been told that Nehruji advised him not to go in the Pran Prasad ceremony.
15:44And one more important fact is that as a president,
15:47his speech had to be telecasted by All India Radio.
15:50But it was not done so.
15:52So, Dr. Shama Muhammad, BJP insists Pandit Nehru wrote to then Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Gobind Ballappanth
16:03saying that the placement of Ram Lala's idols in the Babri Masjid was an unlawful act.
16:08He pressed for their removal.
16:10And strangely, strangely in 2005, government actually submitted an affidavit in court
16:16saying Pandit Nehru's note had mysteriously disappeared.
16:20Listen, I am not going to go into hearsay.
16:24Okay, I only go with facts.
16:26Gaurav Samanth, you do.
16:27Now, one of the facts is Shama Prasad Mukherjee worked as a finance minister under A.K. Faizul Haqq.
16:34Now, who is this person?
16:35He is the one who sent the resolution for Pakistan in 1914.
16:40We all know that.
16:41Shama Prasad Mukherjee worked in Nehru's cabinet.
16:44So, he was involved during the Kashmir crisis.
16:47So, we know what is happening.
16:48These are facts.
16:49See, I am giving you facts where Shama Prasad Mukherjee was with the Muslim League and everything.
16:54We all know what happened during that time.
16:56Okay.
16:56But for the benefit of the debate today, we are on the issue of Ram Temple, Babri, and alleged
17:02use of government funds for construction by Pandit Nehru.
17:06Gaurav, Gaurav.
17:08We are going to go by facts.
17:09You can…
17:09I will not go by hearsay.
17:11What was your discussion today?
17:13Is Jawaharlal Nehru giving money to build Babri Masjid?
17:16That was what was the discussion.
17:18Now, where have you reached…
17:18Out of government funds.
17:19Where Ram Lalla…
17:20Opposed by Sardar Patil.
17:22So, you can't continue with this hearsay.
17:26Go to Ram Lalla.
17:27Then you will reach to Babri Masjid of 99.
17:28Then you will go to Narasimha Rao.
17:30I mean, let's stop all this.
17:31Okay.
17:31Let's get into real issues because you are a senior journalist.
17:34Let's discuss SIR.
17:36Let's discuss pollution.
17:37I am there.
17:38You want to discuss Vande Matram.
17:39We can all do that.
17:40But what are you discussing right now is completely irrelevant and wasting half an hour of your precious
17:47time and the time of the audience.
17:50So, let's go by fact.
17:51Dr. Ajay Alok.
17:53Insulting.
17:54So, we have had a series of discussions on the special intensive revision of the electoral
17:59rolls.
18:00Very extensive discussions.
18:02In fact, we have had a detail, a series of discussions on pollution.
18:06And you are absolutely right.
18:07That's huge.
18:08A lot more needs to be done.
18:10But this issue, since the defense minister has raised it, also comes up.
18:16You've seen the kind of fervor with the Divya Bhavya Navya Ram temple at Ayodhya.
18:20And Dr. Alok, your government is in power at the center.
18:24Your government in Uttar Pradesh.
18:27Rajnath Singh uniquely placed.
18:29Not only is he defense minister.
18:30You know better.
18:31He's from Uttar Pradesh.
18:32Knows the state like the back of his hand.
18:35If there is such a letter.
18:36If there are these telegrams.
18:38Should these notes not be in public domain by now, sir?
18:42For the defense minister to make such a big statement.
18:48First of all, Money Man Patel, when she refers about this suggestion by Nehru to the cabinet.
18:55It's very much mentioned in the Money Man's book.
18:58Whom Shema called an idiot.
19:00Anyway, forget it.
19:02I told you that there is a cabinet note.
19:04Whether rejected or selected, it's always there in the government archive.
19:07And it is kept a secret.
19:09Even Congress never discloses it.
19:11And it's a matter of courtesy for every government not to disclose those cabinet notes.
19:14Whatever are rejected and what are selected.
19:16Number three.
19:17Now I'm telling a fact which was there in front of whole India.
19:20Mr. Narsimha Rao, Congress Prime Minister, on the floor of Loksabha, he made an announcement that we are going to rebuild Babri Masjid.
19:28Yes or no?
19:28Now there is no book.
19:31There is no evidence.
19:32There is no passing on cabinet note.
19:34It's on the floor of the house.
19:35Then Prime Minister Narsimha Rao said.
19:37And on the very same day, he passed that bill.
19:44Places of Worship Act 1991.
19:46On the very same day, the Places of Religious Act or the Worship Act was passed.
19:55So it's there on the house.
19:56What more evidence do you want?
19:58The Congress Party always had an intention to build Babri Masjid from the government's money.
20:02They have been doing it.
20:03There are numerous instances.
20:05When the government has released one to Moss.
20:07Dr. Shama Mohammed wants to come in or in Bhopal or in Bihar, every places.
20:12It's there on the records.
20:13Okay.
20:14Dr. Shama Mohammed, you wanted to respond.
20:16Narsimha Rao was in communicando when the Babri Masjid was destroyed under Kalyan Singh's government in UP.
20:23So I don't need to say anything more.
20:25You know what exactly happened.
20:27You know, it must have been regret and reward.
20:28Prime Minister in communicando.
20:30So we know he was also part of it.
20:32So let's not just keep quiet on it.
20:34We know what happened during that time.
20:35He was in communicando.
20:37Everybody knows that.
20:39So let's not get into it.
20:41Fair enough.
20:42Professor Geetha Bhatt, so what is wrong if Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru wanted the restoration of Babri Masjid
20:48or the remover of Ramlala's idol?
20:51That was his belief.
20:52That is the definition of secularism that was followed.
20:57What's wrong with it?
20:58See, when we talk about being a secular, which the defense minister actually raised in his speech that he felt that Sardar Patel was a true secular,
21:13is when you are, when there is no appeasement from the state on for particular communities.
21:19So the kind of appeasement that has been seen, especially because this is in context with Sardar Patel and also in context of Pandit Nehru.
21:28And we are discussing it at a time when this is the 150th celebration of Sardar Patel's birthday that is taking place.
21:37Let us not forget that out of all the princely state, there was only one princely state which was given to Pandit Nehruji,
21:45which he said that I am going to look after its integration.
21:47Okay, but Kashmir is another story for the moment.
21:50I am restricting myself for the benefit of this debate only to Ram Temple at Ayodhya
21:55or alleged use of, offer of using government funds to make the Babri Masjid.
22:00Yes, Barati, Barati in that case, I think, I think the Work Board Act is something which is one of the most glaring examples
22:08where how appeasement of a particular community is being done, not only...
22:13Let me bring in Saira Shah Haleem on that aspect.
22:15Okay, let me bring in Saira Shah Haleem on the aspect of this is appeasement politics.
22:23True secularism would mean state stays away from religion, whether it's Hindu religion or Muslim religion.
22:30What Pandit Nehru did or what was followed in our country for a very long time was blatant Muslim appeasement.
22:38You know, the BJP also points out and tell me if I am wrong, okay, Dr. Shamba Mohamed also wants to respond to that.
22:44But, you know, when there's conversation of visiting Jinnah's grave, the BJP has just put out a statement saying
22:51the number of times the Nehru Gandhi family visited Babur's grave.
22:57And what's the connection is something that I want to understand.
23:00But Saira Shah Haleem, you go first and then Dr. Shamba Mohamed.
23:02See, I think it's unfortunate that in 2025, instead of discussing pollution, instead of discussing the next election...
23:09No, but it's not instead, we are also discussing pollution.
23:12It's not that we are not discussing pollution.
23:14See, now one, you know, like Nehru's consistent stand, okay, throughout, has always been,
23:22and I'm sure Shamba would agree with me, that a secular state should not fund religious construction,
23:28and, you know, irrespective of any religion, right?
23:32So, if it was to fund Babur Mahjad, would you say Pandit Nehru was wrong?
23:37Let me complete, Gaurav, let me complete.
23:39So, Nehru's policy was to maintain an equidistance from all faiths, and this has been widely documented.
23:47Now, this analogy with Somnath Temple, right?
23:50Now, we come to here.
23:52Now, if you look at it, that Nehru objected to the use of public funds for the Somnath Temple,
23:58which is, again, a very important Hindu site, right?
24:01Now, it is logic, it is logic, right?
24:04And it is consistent with his stand, that he would...
24:07No, it is not.
24:08It is not.
24:09State funds were not being used.
24:11If Hindus of India want to pay money for construction of a temple,
24:15why should Pandit Nehru or anybody, for that matter, oppose that?
24:19No, government of India funds were used.
24:20No, let me finish, please.
24:22Let me finish.
24:22It is logically inconsistent that he would simultaneously, you know, knowing what he stood for,
24:29push for using the taxpayers' money for Babri Mazur.
24:32No, it has not been documented.
24:34Please show the empirical evidences which claim that,
24:39because now Babri Mazur issue was a less politically pressing structure in the early 1950s.
24:45So, let's not use this analogy of Somnath Temple and Babri Mazur,
24:50because it is not applicable here, right?
24:52So, now it is very clear that, you know, what you call, Nehru was very consistent.
24:59As far as policy is, he wanted to maintain equidistance from all faiths,
25:03and he was not for using public money for any religious causes.
25:09Sure, the ball is in Dr. Ajay Alok's court to put out that information in public domain,
25:15but Dr. Shama Mohammed, you want to quickly respond to that fact about, you know,
25:20visiting Jinna's grave and visiting Babri's grave repeatedly?
25:25So, I don't know.
25:26I've never seen any of them visiting Babri's grave.
25:28You have to show us, again, I say, evidence, all right?
25:31Hearsay is hearsay.
25:32Jinna's grave, we have facts, we have evidence on that.
25:35We have all seen it.
25:36So, and every time you all say about appeasement, okay?
25:39Nehru's appeasement of Muslims.
25:41Did he build mosques?
25:42No.
25:43Did he build madrasas?
25:44No.
25:44I don't know what is this appeasement.
25:46I'm a Muslim myself.
25:47But I've always felt Nehru has a scientific temper.
25:51He built colleges, IIT, Ames, ISRO, various things.
25:56He wanted, you know, the country to have a scientific temper,
25:58and he basically separated the church from the state
26:02like it was in the European countries.
26:05He didn't want to get involved in religious things,
26:07any of it, when, you know, in governance.
26:10And I truly agree with that.
26:11But, you know, this sort of appeasement,
26:13every time talking Muslim, Muslim,
26:15then we should have had so many Muslim representatives
26:17by now in this country, being around 15 to 16%.
26:21I can tell you today in India,
26:22Christians who are 2% have more representation in India
26:27than the Muslims in this country.
26:29Okay.
26:29Dr. Ajay Alok wants to comment on the aspect,
26:32you know, when you said that Pandit Nehru was equidistant,
26:36you know, he had a scientific temper,
26:38he wasn't in for Muslim appeasement,
26:40and the point that you're saying that
26:42where is the evidence that Nehru Gandhi family
26:44visited Babur's grave,
26:46and why is the BJP raising that
26:48whether they're visiting Ram Temple or not?
26:50And talk about Admani's Jinnah grave, no?
26:52And Admani visiting Jinnah's...
26:55Okay, Dr. Ajay Alok wants to respond.
26:57That's a very strong thing,
26:59visiting somebody who divided our nation
27:01and made Pakistan horrific.
27:02Let me come one after the other.
27:06Yes.
27:07Just Dr. Ajay Alok wants to respond.
27:09Have patience to listen.
27:10Number one,
27:13the Gandhi family is visiting Babur's graves.
27:16There are multiple pictures.
27:18Please Google it and you will get it.
27:19There's no need for any evidence, number one.
27:21Number two,
27:22Advani ji went to Pakistan
27:23and went to visit Jinnah's grave,
27:26and that was not approved by the party.
27:28Principally, I'm telling,
27:29party considered it wrong.
27:32Am I clear?
27:32I think I'm loud and clear.
27:34Party considered it wrong
27:35that he was visiting Jinnah's grave
27:37and writing something on it.
27:39Number three,
27:39Nehru was so distinct
27:41that he demolished Hindu code bill,
27:43but he developed Muslim personal law.
27:45Nehru was so selective
27:47and so scientific
27:48that he created Vakf
27:49for no reason
27:50because there was no Vakf
27:51in independent India.
27:53But Nehru created separate Vakf.
27:55Nehru was so scientific in his approach
27:57that nobody was going to take Kashmir to UN,
27:59but Nehru took it.
28:00He was so scientific in approach
28:02that he imposed Article 317
28:03and 35A on Kashmir,
28:05making Kashmir a separate nation.
28:07We had two constitutions
28:08and two signals.
28:10This was Nehru,
28:10so scientific.
28:11The scientific things of Nehru
28:13continued till the time of 1962
28:16where all the kinds
28:17of Muslim appeasement were done.
28:18And these are all fact
28:19and documented.
28:20Nehru was so democratic
28:22that even without getting elected,
28:24he amended constitution nine times
28:26before 1951.
28:28He was so democratic.
28:29Okay, Dr. Shammar Mohamad,
28:31last 30 seconds
28:32on this part of the show.
28:33I have breaking news coming in,
28:34but Dr. Shammar Mohamad,
28:35you want to quickly respond, ma'am.
28:37He talks about
28:38things.
28:39I mean, everybody knows
28:40who were in the cabinet.
28:41Even Sardarwalla Bhai Patel
28:43was there during the Kashmir issue.
28:45I mean, talking about Nehru like this,
28:47without...
28:48It was all after death
28:49of Sardarwalla Bhai Patel.
28:50And one more thing.
28:51Let me, I didn't interrupt.
28:52He spoke about
28:53we were against Adwani.
28:54The continuous appeasement
28:56carried on after
28:56Sardarwalla Bhai Patel's death
28:58and Gandhi's death.
28:59Why is Mr. Modi
29:00visiting Adwani?
29:01He changed the concept
29:02of Congress.
29:03You should have cut time.
29:04He changed the DNA of Congress.
29:06And that's why Gandhi
29:07we used to say
29:08that Congress should end.
29:10Okay.
29:11The debate will continue to rage.
29:13We shall report on it
29:14either ways.
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