- 2 hours ago
A massive political row has erupted after Defence Minister Rajnath Singh claimed that the country’s first Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru had proposed using public funds to build the Babri Masjid.
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00:00Good evening, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh has stirred a hornet's nest.
00:04He said Independent India's first Prime Minister, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru,
00:09sought to build the Babri Masjid at Ayodhya using government funds.
00:15And that Sardar Vallabhai Patel, as Independent India's first Home Minister and Deputy Prime Minister,
00:21opposed spending government money for building the mosque.
00:24The Congress has come out all guns blazing, calling this a maliceous attempt to defame Pandit Nehru,
00:30also saying that these are diversionary tactics.
00:33The Pundit Jawaharlal Nehru, who has spent money in the Babri Masjid at Ayodhya,
00:41who has spent money in the Babri Masjid.
00:42The Babri Masjid also had no need to do it.
00:45So, the Pujani's mother's death, the Sardar Vallabhai Patel did not do it.
00:50Rajnath drops Babri bombshell.
00:55Congress slams zero evidence.
01:02Priyanka says, diversion tactics at play.
01:15BJP Congress clash on Babri.
01:30That is our big focus on India first.
01:33Opposition says the real issue today, the government is seeking to divert attention from issues like the rupee being at 90 against a dollar,
01:46an all-time low, or a U-turn on the Sanchar Saathi app, insisting that pre-installation is not mandatory.
01:52So, the government is just trying to divert from real issues.
01:56The BJP has doubled down, insisting Nehru actually wrote letters in 1949 and 50, pressing for the restoration of the Babri Masjid and seeking the removal of Ramlala's idol from the structure.
02:10But is there evidence to back these claims, we debate that on India first.
02:15Also, coming up on India first at 8.30pm tonight, the implication of the RELOS logistics agreement that's now been ratified by the Russian state Duma, their parliament.
02:26parliament, what do we make of India-Russia relationship?
02:31The, what promises to be Russian President Vladimir Putin's historical visit to India that starts tomorrow.
02:38I'm Gaurav Savan.
02:40As always, let's get started with the headlines on India first.
02:43Amidst an uproar, centers U-turn on Sanchar Saathi app, removes mandatory pre-installation of the app on mobile phones,
02:56asserts Sanchar Saathi app purely meant to help citizens.
03:01Howls over, Renuka Chaudhary imitating a dog in the parliament premises, Rajya Sabha may send a privilege notice to the Congress MP.
03:17Renuka Chaudhary responds to the privilege notice with a dog-like woof.
03:23I'm preparing for the privilege motion, BJP. What will you say?
03:27Woof!
03:28Woof!
03:28And what do you say?
03:29Rupee falls to a record low, hits 90 against a dollar for the first time amidst weak trade and portfolio flows.
03:47Several Indigo Airlines flights delayed and cancelled due to check-in disruptions,
03:51chaotic scenes at Hyderabad airport, Indigo says working diligently to resolve the issue.
03:59Madurai Temple showdown escalates, Hindu groups clash with the police over lighting of a dia at the main spot.
04:14Despite Madras High Court order, Tamil Nadu police stop the devotees.
04:19Defence Minister Rajnath Singh dropped a bombshell in Gujarat today, insisting independent India's first Prime Minister Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru proposed paying for the Babri Masjid from government treasury,
04:41but it was Sardar Vallabhai Patel, son of the soil, as Home Minister, who prevented that from happening.
04:47The Congress insists there is no evidence to back this claim, that Nehru wanted to use government money, treasury funds, for the construction of Babri Masjid,
04:57and that these claims are diversionary tactics to shift focus away from real issues that face the nation.
05:04India Today's Mossmi Singh brings you a top story.
05:13The Babri Masjid debate just got a new twist.
05:18Defence Minister Rajnath Singh dropped a bombshell in Gujarat, claiming that Jawaharlal Nehru once wanted public funds to build the Babri Masjid.
05:26But Sardar Vallabhai Patel stepped in and stopped it.
05:30The defence minister added that when it came to the Somnath temple, Patel had no issue
05:57because the 30 lakh rupees facelift was fully funded by the people, not the government.
06:03Singh called that real secularism.
06:05Nehru Ji's father, Nehru Ji, who did not call the Royal Normal and própria
06:25The Congress hit back calling Rajnath Singh's claim a BJP story with zero evidence, accusing
06:44the party of trying to distract the public from current issues.
06:55The Congress hit the
07:16So history, politics and public funds are once again in the spotlight
07:34and as the debate rages on, the big question is
07:37are the claims fact, fiction or political spin?
07:41With Mausami Singh in Delhi, Bureau Report, India Today.
07:46So what should one make of Defence Minister Rajnath Singh's statement,
07:52the timing of the statement and the response of the opposition?
07:55Joining me on India first is Dr. Ajay Alok, National Spokesperson of the BJP.
07:58Dr. Shama Mohammed is the National Spokesperson of the Congress.
08:01Shaira Sahaleem is an activist and author.
08:04Professor Geeta Bhatt is an academic and analyst joining us on this special broadcast.
08:08Dr. Ajay Alok, Congress asks, where is the evidence to prove
08:12Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru sought treasury funds?
08:16Government money to build Babri Masjid and Sardar Patel opposed it?
08:25If you go through the cabinet archives of 1949, when the first government was formed
08:29and Jawaharlal Nehru became the Prime Minister way back in 1946,
08:33in 1949 the proposal very much came there
08:35and which was absolutely rejected by none other than Sardar Vallabh Bhai Patel.
08:40And in the contrary, Mr. Nehru said that what was the need for the Somnath Temple,
08:44to which the answer came what he just now said,
08:47that the Somnath Temple is completely funded by the people
08:50who have collected 30 lakhs for its renovation.
08:53The bucks didn't stop here, Rostu.
08:56When Dr. Rajinder Prashad was invited to inaugurate the Somnath Temple,
09:00Mr. Nehru objected to it, which is there in the written.
09:02Again, a letter was written that you should not go,
09:05because India being a secular country, you should not go to inaugurate a temple.
09:11This legacy continued.
09:12It didn't stop here only.
09:14If you remember, after 1991, the late Prime Minister Narsimha Rao,
09:18on the floor of the House he said,
09:20that the new Babri Masjid will be constructed by the government.
09:23So this kept on happening.
09:25This appeasement politics continued before the independence,
09:29after independence, and this legacy was carried out by the Gandhi family
09:33continuously till now.
09:35And till today, even in Bengal, we have heard somebody is making Babri Masjid from TNC MLA.
09:41Okay, Dr. Shama Mohammed, the BJP accuses the Congress of appeasement politics
09:47and says there's a long history from the time of Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru.
09:51The BJP claims it reflects an anti-Hindu mindset of the Congress.
09:57The stance, you know, two aspects being raised.
10:00One, hostile on the Somnath Temple.
10:03Two, you know, Dr. Rajendra Prasad attending it.
10:06Rajnath Singh's statement that, you know,
10:09Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru wanted government funds
10:12for Babri Masjid construction, madam.
10:15Gaurav Savant, I have known you for years.
10:18You are a good anchor, a good journalist,
10:20and you go by facts and evidences.
10:22I am so shocked that you are doing a show on what Rajnath Singh said.
10:28Now, Dr. Ajay Alok spoke.
10:30He never said anywhere in what he said.
10:32He said Pandit Nehru was against Somnath.
10:34He said he went on to, what is the other person?
10:37Narasimha Rao, our former prime minister, said this and that.
10:40But nowhere he said what Rajnath Singh said,
10:44that Jawaharlal Nehru wanted funds to build a Babri Masjid.
10:48So that itself, we can understand as no evidence.
10:52I'm telling you today, I just got the news.
10:55I got a call just now that Rajnath Singh is converted to Islam.
10:58Do you know that, Gaurav Savant?
11:00I just got a call.
11:01Rajnath Singh is now a Muslim.
11:04So, this is the thing.
11:06You have to do a debate on that now.
11:07Because Rajnath Singh goes out and says something
11:10that has happened, which he thinks is right.
11:13Is that the basis of you doing a debate?
11:15Have they shown you any of the evidence?
11:17He's defence minister of India.
11:19I don't give a damn he's a defence minister
11:21if he doesn't come out with facts.
11:24I don't care who the hell he is.
11:26There is something.
11:26You're a journalist of caliber.
11:29The BJP has gone mad.
11:32They come out to divert and distract from SIR
11:35and the most important thing right now,
11:37pollution, which is killing Ajay Alok,
11:40who's a doctor himself.
11:41He knows what is COPD.
11:43Gaurav Savant, it's killing him.
11:44He lives in Noida.
11:46And they say Noida is worse than Delhi.
11:48And it's killing us and many others.
11:50That's the most important topic.
11:51I want to know, Ajay Alok,
11:54I've heard that Rajnath Singh is converted into Islam.
11:57Can you tell me if it's the truth or not?
11:58Okay, Ajay Alok, since there's a direct reference to you,
12:01you want to respond to what the Congress Party spokesperson says,
12:03both on the issue of the defence?
12:04Because he never said,
12:05where is the Papri Masjid thing?
12:07You have to show everything.
12:07Dr. Ajay Alok and Dr. Shammar Mohamad,
12:10we put both the good doctors on screen.
12:12One second, one more thing, Gaurav Savant.
12:14And insulting the Prime Minister.
12:16Remember, the ban of RSS was done by Sardar Vallabhae Patel
12:20and not Jawaharlal Nehru.
12:22You keep telling Sardar Vallabhae Patel,
12:24stop this bloody nonsense.
12:26Enough is enough.
12:27All right?
12:28Do not make up stories about Pandit Nehru,
12:30who was one of the greatest Prime Ministers of this country.
12:33Enough is enough.
12:33Okay, Dr. Ajay Alok wants to respond, ma'am.
12:34Do not make stories about Narendra Modi,
12:37or for that matter, Vajpayee.
12:38We will never do that.
12:40Okay.
12:40I guess...
12:40Dr. Ajay Alok.
12:41I guess I...
12:42I guess the sanct...
12:43I guess the...
12:45I don't expect the sanctity of words to be maintained here
12:47when it cannot be maintained in the Parliament.
12:49So this...
12:50All the slangs of bloody and I don't care and I give a damn.
12:53Keep it to yourself.
12:55We also don't care and we give a damn.
12:56And I guess you didn't hear my initial statement
12:59when I said in 1949 a cabinet proposal came
13:01to fund Babi Masjid,
13:03for which the documented evidence is there.
13:04In the archives of the government of India.
13:06That is a fact.
13:08Don't run away.
13:09And if Sardarwalla Bhai Patel banned...
13:10Do it to me.
13:11Don't shout in between.
13:12Do it to me.
13:12Don't shout in between.
13:14Don't shout in...
13:14I have to...
13:15Because you're talking nonsense.
13:16One by one.
13:17You're talking nonsense.
13:18One by one.
13:18We have already shown.
13:20We had already shown.
13:22Lick, lick.
13:22One by one.
13:23Okay.
13:23Doesn't go like this.
13:23Okay.
13:24Keep your...
13:25Dr. Shama Mohammed and Dr. Ajay Alok on air, please.
13:2730, 40 years.
13:29We have...
13:29Yeah.
13:31Go on, Dr. Alok.
13:32We have already shown the late Subhash Chandra Bose diary.
13:35We are already in the process of showing many things,
13:37which is hidden,
13:38which is not there in the history,
13:39which is going to be the part of the history,
13:41which is troubling you,
13:42which is troubling you,
13:43which is troubling you.
13:43If Sadaar Patel banned us,
13:45if Sadaar Patel banned us,
13:47why are you shouting in between?
13:49Okay.
13:49One of you can see the anxiety.
13:51Okay.
13:51Dr. Shama Mohammed.
13:53Let Dr. Ajay Alok make his point, madam.
13:58Let Dr. Ajay Alok make his point.
14:00I'll come back to you.
14:01I'll come back to you.
14:02I don't want to go beyond evidence.
14:03Where is the evidence when you accuse a former prime minister
14:07who is not alive to defend himself?
14:10I want evidence.
14:11The anxiety and irritability...
14:12Yes, Dr. Ajay Alok.
14:13Your anxiety and irritability cannot change the facts.
14:20These are the facts.
14:21And it's Sadaar Patel banned RSS
14:23after the death of Mahasma Gandhi.
14:25Sadaar Patel only lifted the ban.
14:27Dr. Mohammed, just let him complete this point.
14:29Sadaar Patel only lifted the ban.
14:30You know, he lifted...
14:30And your mis...
14:31You know, he heard you.
14:32Hear him out.
14:33I'll come back to you, madam.
14:34Just hear him out.
14:35I can't hear something which is nonsensical.
14:37Gaurav, where are the evidence...
14:38Evidence...
14:39See, he's a doctor.
14:40A disease has got...
14:41We do evidence-based facts.
14:42This is nothing but...
14:43This is nothing but the anxiety.
14:45The anxiety of hiding the truth.
14:49This is nothing but the anxiety of hiding the truth.
14:51That why...
14:52What you are.
14:54Mind your language.
14:55Enough.
14:57Enough.
14:58I've heard you enough.
14:59Bloody, bloody, bloody.
15:00What do you think you are?
15:01You can speak anything.
15:02Any nonsense on the TV.
15:04And get away with it.
15:05Mind your language.
15:06I'm being courteous.
15:07On the substantive issue.
15:08On the substantive issue.
15:09Evidence kaha hai.
15:10We certainly have spoken before us.
15:12Okay, Dr. Alok.
15:13We are not discussing our personal matters here.
15:15Sabo tikhado.
15:17Sabo tikhado.
15:17When I'm saying one after the other thing, listen to me.
15:19We don't want to go beyond.
15:21Okay, only Dr. Ajay Alok so that he can make the point.
15:24There are evidence.
15:24Dr. Shama Mohammed, just let Dr. Ajay Alok complete his point.
15:28I'm coming back to you.
15:29Dr. Alok, complete your point, sir.
15:33One after the other, we have given the evidence.
15:36And we'll come out with this evidence also.
15:37That there was a cabinet proposal in which Nehru proposed that the Babri Masjid be built
15:41to maintain the mutual trust post-1948 communal rights.
15:46Let's build the Babri Masjid.
15:47It came up in the cabinet.
15:48You know every cabinet proposal, whether accepted or rejected, is kept in the government archive.
15:52It's there for everyone to see.
15:54Congress knows this very well.
15:56Now, they are afraid that if we bring out this, this will open another Pandora's box.
16:00Secondly, second thing, if Sardar Patel banned RSS, Sardar Patel only lifted the ban on RSS,
16:06and he wrote a good comprehensive three-pages letter which is there in the documented evidence.
16:10And she talks about RSS.
16:12It was Mr. Nehru only who invited RSS post-China war to participate in a Republic Day parade.
16:18She conveniently forgets everything.
16:20This Congress party banned RSS thrice after that, during emergency, which was lifted by
16:24court.
16:2591 post-Babri Masjid demolition lifted by court.
16:26I want to once again come back to a substantive issue of Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru.
16:31This is the essence of this country.
16:33Okay.
16:34Dr. Shama Mohammed, the BJP has also quoted an excerpt from the inside story of Sardar Patel,
16:40the diary of Mani Bain Patel, which reads and I quote and I put that quote out in public
16:44domain for our viewers also.
16:46So, it says Nehru also raised the issue, the question of Babri Masjid, but Sardar made
16:52it clear that the government could not spend any money for building a mosque.
16:57And then it goes on to give a reason.
16:59Would you want to respond to Mani Bain Patel's book?
17:02No, no, no.
17:02Gaurav, I can write a book.
17:04Some idiot can write a book.
17:05Ma'am, this is Sardar Patel's daughter.
17:08You know, no, no.
17:09Listen to me.
17:10I don't care who it is.
17:11I want to see evidence from...
17:13She's calling Sardar Patel's daughter an idiot.
17:16What kind of a language is being used?
17:18I want to see evidence.
17:19Parliamentary schools have cut and dust.
17:21Here she's using all kind of bloody slang and all idiot and all.
17:25Dr. Alok, let Dr. Mohammed complete her point, sir.
17:27I request my guests to keep the language civil.
17:36You know, this is a show which is widely watched by families and children.
17:41But Dr. Mohammed complete your point, ma'am.
17:44My point is very simple.
17:46Listen to me, Gaurav.
17:47You are a senior journalist.
17:49You can't accuse a prime minister of somebody writing a book or something else.
17:54We don't know what happened there.
17:55I just bring out...
17:57He says it's in the archives.
17:59Bring it out tomorrow.
18:00Rajdat said you bring it out and put it out there.
18:02This is there or where there is that letter from Jawaharlal Nehru to Patel.
18:08I mean, you can't...
18:09You know, you can't do this.
18:10Enough is enough.
18:12Tomorrow I can say so-and-so was behind the Gujarat riots
18:15or somebody else converted into...
18:17And who went to Jinnah's grave?
18:19Who went to Jinnah's grave?
18:21It was Advani.
18:22Nobody from our party.
18:23Jinnah's grave.
18:24Advani went there.
18:25With one of their tallest leaders.
18:27Okay.
18:27So that is called evidence.
18:29That's a fact.
18:30Because we have evidence.
18:31Now you come up and see...
18:32Okay, Ajay Alok.
18:32Give me a moment.
18:35Okay.
18:35Fair enough.
18:36You're saying bring out that evidence in public domain
18:38and let it not be just anecdotal references, you know.
18:42And we have great respect for Sardar Patel and Mani Ben Patel as far as India today is concerned.
18:49Saira Shahalim, is Rajnath Singh as Defence Minister of India exposing the double standards of the so-called secularism in India?
18:57Nehru, according to Rajnath Singh, was okay with government money being used for Babri Masjid but opposed President, then-President Dr. Rajendra Prasad or even Sardar Patel going for Somnath Temple inauguration?
19:12Are these double standards of Indian secularism?
19:15Is this what BJP describes as Muslim appeasement politics?
19:19And that Sardar Patel had to clarify government money was not being used for the construction of Somnath Temple.
19:25It was trust money that was used.
19:27So firstly, good evening, Gaurab.
19:30Let's be very clear one thing.
19:32That BJP is right now on a desperate mission to claim Sardar Patel and Dr. Amitkar as his own, like I said.
19:39So it's not really about Babri Masjid or Nehru.
19:42The question is about Sardar Patel.
19:45Who actually wanted the RSSs to be banned?
19:48So I don't know whether to laugh or to cry, but BJP really needs to steal independence heroes because all they have is Sardar Patel.
19:54Now point two, the Liberian Commission has already held that the demolition of Babri Masjid was not a spontaneous crowd-driven accident, but a result of a meticulous planning, you know.
20:07And it explicitly named senior RSSs, BJP figures who were actively or passively involved with this entire demolition, right?
20:17And in other words, the BJP is responsible for the deep communal divide that we get to see in the country.
20:22And Mantriji's sound and light program is basically, it's just a cover-up, right?
20:29So now here, whether, here I'm refuting the claim that Nehru planned to use public funds for Babri Masjid.
20:38Firstly, A, the strongest point is where is the archival evidence to prove that there should be some documentary evidence to support this specific claim that, yes, Nehru indeed planned to use public funds for Babri Masjid.
20:53Where is the proof? Because when you look at claims like this, you ask for documentary evidence where there is none.
20:59Secondly, where is the correspondence to substantiate, you know, this, that Nehru proposed or rather intended to use government funds for Babri Masjid.
21:09There's no letters, there's no draft, there's no correspondence, none of that at all.
21:14Let me bring in Professor Geeta Bhatt to respond to this.
21:17Professor Bhatt, Professor Bhatt, just on the basis of what Mani Ben Patel wrote, you know, in the book that Defence Minister Rajnath Singh has made this claim, are we to understand that?
21:27If Pandit Nehru wanted to use government funds for Babri, as, you know, Saira Shah Haleem and Dr. Shama Muhammad asked,
21:35wouldn't there have been letters between Pandit Nehru and Sardar Patel, papers in the cabinet?
21:40Dr. Ajay Alok does refer to a cabinet note which is yet to be in public domain.
21:44But, Professor Bhatt?
21:48Yes, Gauruji, I think, you know, Sardar Patel has been one of the most tallest leaders in this country, both figuratively as well in the literal way,
21:59towering presence in the freedom movement as well as post-freedom movement where he played a very, very crucial role in, you know, integrating the princely states,
22:10more than 500 princely states into the country.
22:13And, you know, when his daughter, Mani Ben Patel, who was also incidentally a member of parliament from Congress Party,
22:24and later on was sent to Rajya Sabha by Congress Party,
22:27it is the collection of her letters, because she spent a large amount of time with her father
22:33during very important meetings which used to take place between political leaders, before independence and after independence.
22:41So, when she is writing something, and if it is being quoted, and there is a reference which already has been given by Ajay Alokji,
22:48I think it is important to take note of it, some people may disagree with it, but no one can disagree that when Ram Mandir idol was installed in Ayodhya at night in December 1949,
23:03after that, Kandit Nehru had written to the then Chief Minister of Kutthar Pradesh,
23:09Yes.
23:09Govind Ballak Pan, that this installation of idol is illegal and it has to be removed.
23:15This no one can deny.
23:17No one can deny that when Rajendra Prasad, the first President of the country,
23:22when he was going to go to inaugurate the Sonanath Temple,
23:26it has already been told that Nehruji advised him not to go in the Pranpati Shakt ceremony.
23:32And one more important fact is that as a President, his speech had to be telecasted by All India Radio,
23:38but it was not done so.
23:40So, Dr. Shama Muhammad, BJP insists, Pandit Nehru wrote to then Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Gobind Ballapant,
23:51saying that the placement of Ram Lala's idols in the Babri Masjid was an unlawful act.
23:57He pressed for their removal and strangely, strangely in 2005,
24:02government actually submitted an affidavit in court saying Pandit Nehru's note had mysteriously disappeared.
24:08Listen, I am not going to go into hearsay, okay?
24:12I only go with facts.
24:14Gaurav Samanth, you do.
24:15Now, one of the facts is Shama Prasad Mukherjee worked as a finance minister under A.K. Faizul Haqq.
24:22Now, who is this person?
24:24He is the one who sent the resolution for Pakistan in 1914.
24:28We all know that.
24:29Shama Prasad Mukherjee worked in Nehru's cabinet.
24:32So, he was involved during the Kashmir crisis.
24:35So, we know what is happening.
24:37These are facts.
24:38See, I am giving you facts where Shama Prasad Mukherjee was with the Muslim League and everything.
24:42We all know what happened during that time.
24:44Okay.
24:45But for the benefit of the debate today, we are on the issue of Ram Temple, Babri,
24:49and alleged use of government funds for construction by Pandit Nehru.
24:54Gaurav, Gaurav.
24:56We are going to go by facts.
24:57You can…
24:58I will not go by hearsay.
24:59What was your discussion today?
25:01Is Jawaharlal Nehru giving money to build Babri Masjid?
25:05That was what was the discussion.
25:06Now, where have you reached…
25:06Out of government funds.
25:07Where Ram Lalla…
25:08Opposed by Sardar Patil.
25:10Yeah.
25:11So, you can't continue with this hearsay.
25:14Go to Ram Lalla.
25:15Then you will reach to Babri Masjid of 1999.
25:17Then you will go to Narasimha Rao.
25:18I mean, let's stop all this.
25:19Okay.
25:19Let's get into real issues because you are a senior journalist.
25:22Let's discuss SIR.
25:24Let's discuss pollution.
25:25I am there.
25:26You want to discuss Vande Matram.
25:28We can all do that.
25:29But what are you discussing right now is completely irrelevant and wasting half an hour of your precious time and the time of the audience.
25:38So, let's go by facts.
25:39Dr. Ajay Alok.
25:40Insulting.
25:41Okay.
25:42So, we have…
25:43We've had a series of discussions on the special intensive revision of the electoral rolls.
25:48Very extensive discussions.
25:50In fact, we've had a detail, a series of discussions on pollution.
25:54And you're absolutely right.
25:55That's huge.
25:56A lot more needs to be done.
25:59But this issue, since the defense minister has raised it, also comes up.
26:04You've seen the kind of fervor with the Divya Bhavya Navya Ram temple at Ayodhya.
26:09And Dr. Alok, your government is in power at the center.
26:12Your government in Uttar Pradesh.
26:15Rajnath Singh uniquely placed.
26:17Not only is he defense minister.
26:18You know better.
26:19He's from Uttar Pradesh.
26:20Which knows the state like the back of his hand.
26:23If there is such a letter.
26:25If there are these telegrams.
26:27Should these notes not be in public domain by now, sir?
26:31For the defense minister to make such a big statement.
26:33First of all, Mani Bain Patel, when she refers about this suggestion by Nehru to the cabinet,
26:44it's very much mentioned in the Mani Bain's book, whom Shrema called an idiot.
26:48Anyway, forget it.
26:50I told you that there is a cabinet note.
26:52Whether rejected or selected, it's always there in the government archive.
26:56And it is kept a secret.
26:58Even Congress never discloses it.
26:59And it's a matter of courtesy for every government not to disclose those cabinet notes.
27:02Whatever are rejected and what are selected.
27:04Number three.
27:05Now I'm telling a fact which was there in front of whole India.
27:09Mr. Narsimha Rao, Congress Prime Minister, on the floor of Lok Sabha,
27:12he made an announcement that we are going to rebuild Babri Masjir.
27:16Yes or no?
27:17Now there is no book, there is no evidence, there is no passing on cabinet note.
27:22It's on the floor of the House, then Prime Minister Narsimha Rao said.
27:25And on the very same day, he passed that, what do you say, that bill.
27:32Places of Worship Act 1991.
27:35Places of Religious Act.
27:36Yes.
27:37Places of Worship Act.
27:38On the very same day, the Places of Religious Act or Worship Act was passed.
27:43So it's there on the House.
27:45What more evidence do you want?
27:46The Congress Party always had an intention to build Babri Masjid from the government's money.
27:50They have been doing it.
27:51There are numerous instances when the government has released one to Moss.
27:55Dr. Shama Mohammed wants to come in and rebat.
27:58Or in Bihar, every places.
28:00It's there on the records.
28:01Okay.
28:02Dr. Shama Mohammed, you wanted to respond.
28:03That Narsimha Rao was in Communicando when the Babri Masjid was destroyed under Kalyan Singh's government in UP.
28:12So I don't need to say anything more.
28:13You know what exactly happened.
28:15You know, it must have been regret and remorse.
28:16Prime Minister in Communicando.
28:18So we know he was also part of it.
28:21So let's not just keep quiet on it.
28:22We know what happened during that time.
28:24He was in Communicando.
28:25Everybody knows that.
28:27So let's not get into it.
28:29Fair enough.
28:30Professor Geetha Bhatt, so what is wrong if Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru wanted the restoration of Babri Masjid or the remover of Ramlala's idol?
28:38That was his belief.
28:40That is the definition of secularism that, you know, that was followed.
28:45What's wrong with it?
28:48See, when we, Gaurav ji, when we talk about being a secular, which the defense minister actually raised in his speech that he felt that Sardar Patel was a true secular,
29:01is when you are, when there is no appeasement from the state on for particular communities.
29:07So the kind of appeasement that has been seen, especially because this is in context with Sardar Patel and also in context of Pandit Nehru,
29:16and we are discussing it at a time when this is the 150th celebration of Sardar Patel's birthday that is, birthday that is taking place.
29:26Let us not forget that out of all the princely states, there was only one princely state which was given to Pandit Nehruji,
29:33which he said that I am going to look after its integration.
29:36Okay, but Kashmir is another story for the moment.
29:38I am restricting myself for the benefit of this debate only to Ram Temple at Ayodhya
29:43or alleged use of, offer of using government funds to make the Babri Masjid.
29:48But for the thing, in that case, I think, I think the Work Board Act is something which is one of the most glaring examples where how appeasement of a particular community is being done not only...
30:01Let me bring in Saira Shah Haleem on that aspect of this is appeasement politics.
30:12True secularism would mean state stays away from religion, whether it's Hindu religion or Muslim religion.
30:17What Pandit Nehruji did or what was followed in our country for a very long time was blatant Muslim appeasement.
30:25You know, the BJP also points out and tell me if I am wrong, okay, Dr. Shamba Mohamed also wants to respond to that.
30:32But, you know, when there's conversation of visiting Jinnah's grave, the BJP has just put out a statement saying the number of times the Nehru Gandhi family visited Babur's grave.
30:45And what's the connection is something that I want to understand.
30:48But Saira Shah Haleem, you go first and then Dr. Shamba Mohamed.
30:50See, I think it's unfortunate that in 2025, instead of discussing pollution, instead of discussing the next election...
30:57No, but it's not instant. We are also discussing pollution.
31:00It's not that we are not discussing pollution.
31:03See, now one, you know, like Nehru's consistent stand, okay, throughout, has always been, and I'm sure Shamba would agree with me,
31:12that a secular state should not fund religious construction, and, you know, irrespective of any religion, right?
31:20So, if it was to fund Babur Mahjit, would you say Pandit Nehru was wrong?
31:25Let me complete, Gaurav. Let me complete.
31:27So, Nehru's policy was to maintain an equidistance from all faiths, and this has been widely documented.
31:36Now, this analogy with Somnath Temple, right?
31:39Now, we come to here.
31:40Now, if you look at it, that Nehru objected to the use of public funds for the Somnath Temple,
31:46which is, again, a very important Hindu site, right?
31:50Now, it is logic. It is logic, right?
31:52And it is consistent with his stand that he would...
31:55No, it is not. It is not. State funds were not being used.
31:59If Hindus of India want to pay money for construction of a temple,
32:03why should Pandit Nehru or anybody, for that matter, oppose that?
32:07No, no, no, no.
32:07No, government of India funds were used.
32:08No, let me finish, please. Let me finish.
32:10It is logically inconsistent that he would simultaneously, you know, knowing what he stood for,
32:17push for using the taxpayers' money for Babri Mazid.
32:20No, it has not been documented.
32:22Please show the empirical evidences which claim that,
32:27because now Babri Mazid issue was a less politically pressing structure in the early 1950s.
32:33So, let's not use this analogy of Somnath Temple and Babri Mazid,
32:38because it is not applicable here, right?
32:40So, now it is very clear that, you know, what you call, Nehru was very consistent.
32:47As far as policy is, he wanted to maintain equidistance from all faiths,
32:51and he was not for using public money for any religious causes.
32:57Sure, the ball is in Dr. Ajay Alok's court to put out that information in public domain,
33:03but Dr. Shama Mohammed, you want to quickly respond to that fact about,
33:08you know, visiting Jinnah's grave and visiting Babri's grave repeatedly?
33:13So, I don't know. I've never seen any of them visiting Babri's grave.
33:16You have to show us, again, I say evidence, all right?
33:19Hearsay is hearsay.
33:20Jinnah's grave, we have facts, we have evidence on that.
33:23We have all seen it.
33:25So, and every time you all say about appeasement, okay?
33:27Nehru's appeasement of Muslims.
33:29Did he build mosques? No.
33:31Did he build madrasas? No.
33:33I don't know what is this appeasement.
33:34I'm a Muslim myself.
33:36But I've always felt Nehru has a scientific temper.
33:39He built colleges, IIT, Ames, ISRO, various things.
33:44He wanted, you know, the country to have a scientific temper,
33:46and he basically separated the church from the state like it was in the European countries.
33:53He didn't want to get involved in religious things, any of it, when, you know, in governance.
33:58And I truly agree with that.
33:59But, you know, this sort of appeasement, every time talking Muslim, Muslim,
34:03then we should have had so many Muslim representatives by now in this country,
34:08being around 15 to 16 percent, I can tell you today in India,
34:11Christians who are 2 percent have more representation in India than the Muslims in this country.
34:17Okay.
34:17Dr. Ajay Alok wants to comment on the aspect, you know, when you said that Pandit Nehru was equidistant,
34:24you know, he had a scientific temper, he wasn't in for Muslim appeasement,
34:28and the point that you're saying that where is the evidence that Nehru Gandhi family visited Babur's grave,
34:34and why is the BJP raising that, whether they're visiting Ram Temple or not, you know,
34:39And talk about Advani's Jinnah grave, no?
34:40Advani visited Jinnah's grave.
34:41And Advani visiting Jinnah's...
34:43Okay, Dr. Ajay Alok wants to respond.
34:45That's a very strong thing, visiting somebody who divided our nation and made Pakistan.
34:50Let me come one after the other.
34:54Yes.
34:55Just Dr. Ajay Alok wants to respond.
34:57Have patience to listen.
34:58Number one, the Gandhi family is visiting Babur's graves,
35:04There are multiple pictures.
35:06Please Google it and you'll get it.
35:08There's no need for any evidence.
35:09Number one.
35:10Number two, Advani ji went to Pakistan and went to visit Jinnah's grave,
35:14and that was not approved by the party.
35:17Principally, I'm telling party considered it wrong.
35:20Am I clear?
35:21I think I'm loud and clear.
35:22Party considered it wrong, that he was visiting Jinnah's grave and writing something on it.
35:26Number three, Nehru was so distinct that he demolished Hindu code bill,
35:31but he developed Muslim personal law.
35:33Nehru was so selective and so scientific that he created Vakf for no reason,
35:39because there was no Vakf in independent India.
35:41But Nehru created separate Vakf.
35:43Nehru was so scientific in his approach that nobody was going to take Kashmir to UN,
35:48but Nehru took it.
35:49He was so scientific in the approach that he imposed Article 317 and 35A on Kashmir,
35:53making Kashmir a separate nation.
35:55We had two constitutions and two signals.
35:58This was Nehru, so scientific.
36:00The scientific things of Nehru continued till the time of 1962,
36:04where all the kinds of Muslim appeasement were done.
36:07And these are all fact and documented.
36:09Nehru was so democratic that even without getting elected,
36:12he amended constitution nine times before 1951.
36:16He was so democratic.
36:17Okay, Dr. Shammar Mohamad, last 30 seconds on this part of the show.
36:21I have breaking news coming in, but Dr. Shammar Mohamad, you have to quickly respond, ma'am.
36:25He talks about things.
36:27I mean, everybody knows who were in the cabinet.
36:29Even Sardar Walla Bhai Patel was there during the Kashmir issue.
36:33I mean, talking about Nehru like this, without...
36:36It was all after the death of Sardar Walla Bhai Patel.
36:38And one more thing.
36:39Let me, I didn't interrupt.
36:40He spoke about we were against Adwani.
36:43The continuous appeasement carried on after Sardar Walla Bhai Patel's death and Gandhi's death.
36:47Why is Mr. Modi visiting Adwani?
36:49He changed the concept of Congress.
36:52You should have cut time.
36:53He changed the DNA of Congress.
36:54And that's why Gandhi, we used to say that Congress should end.
36:57Okay, okay, you know, this debate will continue to rage.
37:02We shall report on it either ways.
37:04I have breaking news, I have breaking news that's coming in from Madurai.
37:07And that's a major flashpoint, the latest information that's coming in.
37:11Despite a very clear Madras High Court order to light the Deepam at the ancient Deepsthan,
37:19the stone lamp pillar, court orders were not carried out in Tamil Nadu.
37:25For over a century, the festival lamp has been lit only near the Uchi Pillayar temple.
37:34But the High Court ordered that the Deepam should be lit at the original pillar on the Thirupan Kunandram hill.
37:44But it could not happen there.
37:46It did not happen there.
37:47That order of the court was not followed.
37:50And you're looking at those images where Hindu devotees, they tried to light the lamp following court orders.
37:59And they were not permitted to do so.
38:02Now, devotees tried to climb the hill.
38:04The police blocked their movement.
38:06And this is a centuries-old tradition in Bharat.
38:11A court order.
38:14The Hindus went and took a court order to follow their ritual.
38:17You're looking at that image on your television screen.
38:20This is in Madurai in Tamil Nadu.
38:22And it's a night of unprecedented temper, tension in Madurai.
38:28My colleague, Pramod Madhav, is sending us this report.
38:32As the lamp was not lit over the Deepatun, now the protesters over here, pro-Hindu group, Hindu
38:39Murnia and such, are coming over to this, at the foothill of Thirupan Kunandram.
38:42And as we speak, they are trying to protest, claiming that there is a court order.
38:46And still, they are not allowed to go over there and light the Karthike Deepam.
38:50As we speak, over there right now, they are trying to break the barricade.
38:54And that is also a huge kind of issues happening over here with this Thirupan Kunandram hill,
38:58where, on one side, the Karthike Deepam has been lit.
39:01But on the other side, now protesters are trying to climb over to the hill once again.
39:06And they are trying to enter the other portion, where you have the Dargah.
39:10And from 50 meters away from there, you have the particular Deepatun.
39:15And they are trying to enter this vicinity.
39:17Police are trying to block them.
39:19However, protesters have entered and more are trying to come over here.
39:23Police are trying to block them over here.
39:24Still, a team has gone up.
39:26And they are claiming that they want to light the lamp over there.
39:29These are the protesters at this spot.
39:31And they are climbing atop this particular hill.
39:34This is Sikandar Malay.
39:36This is an issue, Thirupan Kunandram hill.
39:38And there, it earlier turned out to be an issue because it was called as Sikandar Malay.
39:42Then it had to go to the court.
39:43And then it was actually now, it is once again being called as Thirupan Kunandram hill.
39:48One of the protesters over here is also injured.
39:50However, the rest of the protesters are climbing atop.
39:53On the top, there is another one particular police force which is trying to block them.
39:59This is close to 200 steps.
40:01They have to climb to go over the spot over there.
40:03Police are trying to stop them, however.
40:05But they broke the barricade.
40:06They also tried to...
40:07So, India, today's Pramod Madhav reporting on the realities on ground.
40:14We'll track that story.
40:15A quick break.
40:15On the other side, the countdown has begun.
40:18Hours to go for Russian President Vladimir Putin's arrival.
40:21And just before his arrival, the Russian Duma has approved the Relos Logistics Agreement.
40:27What should we make of that?
40:29And of a visit that promises to be historic.
40:32Details coming up.
40:32So, the countdown has begun hours to go for Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit to India.
40:43And there's been a major development in Moscow.
40:45Russia's state Duma, the parliament, has cleared the Relos Agreement Pact.
40:50It's a defense pact that gives India and Russia shared access to ports in each other's countries,
40:55to airspace, to military logistics.
40:59And just before the ratification, President Putin praised India's central role in Moscow's global strategy.
41:07Ahead of the visit, Kremlin spokesperson, Dimitri Peskov, also signaled major defense conversations on the table,
41:14including renewed discussion on the Su-57 next-generation fighter jets,
41:18joint aerospace program, strong signals from Kremlin, Moscow's rising tensions with European capitals and with Washington, D.C.,
41:27and defense conversations with New Delhi.
41:30Now, this promises to be an action-packed visit.
41:33India today gets you more on the partnership between India and Russia.
41:38This is a relationship that stood the test of time.
41:41Joining me to talk more about the Sudarshan Chakra Air Defense Shield, the Su-57s, the nuclear submarines,
41:49the civilian aspect of the cooperation, Air Marshal Anil Chopra, former Director General of Centre for Air Power Studies,
41:54Vice Admiral Sheikar Sina, former Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of Indian Navy's Western Naval Aviator himself,
42:01and of course, India today's Sandeep Unnithan.
42:03Admiral Sheikar Sina, from leasing nuclear-powered submarines to conversations on S-400s and S-500s,
42:11will the focus be military or more military-oriented, or is it much, much bigger?
42:18And your reading of the reloss agreement, sir?
42:22Gaurav, thank you for getting me on your show, as always.
42:24And it's really a pleasure, and being with two of my very dear friends on the panel.
42:30You know, Gaurav, the Russia and India bilateral relations have two very important pillars.
42:38And one pillar is the defense cooperation.
42:42And the second one is, of course, the energy.
42:45Though they are now spreading into other sort of sectors,
42:49and they are probably going to make two more pillars.
42:52But coming back to what you said,
42:55you are absolutely right,
42:57that the Su-57 will very much be on cards.
43:00I think, Irmarshall Chopra will speak more about it.
43:03But as on your program, the last time I suggested,
43:06that, you know, India should go ahead with at least two squadrons,
43:09to fill up the gap,
43:11you know, so that your Ramka project also keeps moving,
43:15and the Rafale, few more Rafales, which should come to the Air Force.
43:19The second one is, I also mentioned about Sudarshan Chakra,
43:22Gaurav, Sudarshan Chakra is,
43:25you know, in all India's sort of shield against the ballistic missiles of the adversaries.
43:31And, you know, we have two nuclear-powered adversaries on our borders.
43:35And if the worst comes to that, and if it is used,
43:41then we must have something to protect,
43:43not only the northern India, but also the entire India Peninsula.
43:47As you would know, that a lot of our strategic assets are actually located in southern India,
43:53including some power plants, and, you know, the other energy sources.
43:57So, Air Marshal Chopra, okay, Air Marshal Chopra, is this a signal even to the United States of America?
44:04Despite their additional 25% tariffs, India-Russia relationship remains strong.
44:10However, the caveat I may add,
44:12India had to take a CAATSA waiver to buy the S-400s.
44:16Can we go ahead with more military hardware?
44:19Or are we to presume we buy military hardware once the Russia-Ukraine war is sorted?
44:25Yeah, you know, Gaurav, firstly, great to be with you and the same panel that we have earlier been on.
44:32And I must tell you that this is a great signaling time.
44:35Firstly, the, yeah, we are having a little, you know, rough time with Americans,
44:43if I may use the word, especially with President Trump.
44:45He is trying to push us.
44:47But there is a big signal with Putin coming.
44:50You know, mind you, Putin is coming to India for the 10th time since he's been in power since 2000.
44:55And this is his fourth visit during Prime Minister Modi's time.
44:59But he's been 20 times to China.
45:01But the signals are very clear.
45:03And I think a big signal started with the announcements in Dubai Airshow
45:08when Su-57 was offered by the company boss with lock, stock and barrel,
45:15literally giving you everything from technology, engine, avionics, radar, ASA, you name it.
45:21Everything they were willing to offer, they would want to make it in India.
45:26You know, so Su-57 and S-400 are the big thing that,
45:30but I must tell you, you know, making statements in the airshow is a different thing.
45:35But in the government circles and among the Russians, they are realistic, realists.
45:41A lot of homework has gone on between the two teams.
45:44And let me put these two subjects in context.
45:48Of course, there are many other areas of both aviation and naval side which are important.
45:53You know, make in India Su-57, it's, you know, some back channel discussions have taken place.
46:00But remember that to make in India Su-57 will directly impact your AMCA project
46:06because you cannot, India cannot at this moment afford to 5th generation.
46:125th generation, absolutely.
46:12It's not being designed and built within the country.
46:15So let me also bring in Sandeep briefly into this conversation.
46:18Sandeep, Donald Trump also sent a special representative, Steve Witkoff, to Moscow.
46:23Are we still some distance away from conclusion of that conflict between Russia and Ukraine?
46:29And should that conflict continue, will that directly impact India-Russia ties
46:34when it comes to military hardware or even energy requirements?
46:37Well, absolutely, Karub.
46:39You know that Russia-Ukraine war has impacted the India-Russia defense relationship.
46:46There's no two ways about it.
46:48It has slowed down the delivery of certain weapon systems like the S-400.
46:54The two regiments that were to have, the balanced two regiments that were to have been delivered
46:58are still in the pipeline.
47:01They're not being delivered yet.
47:02There's been a slight delay on that account.
47:03But despite that, Russia has kept up its supply of the engines for the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.
47:12There have been no interruptions in that.
47:14So, you know, and the fact is that the longer this Russia-Ukraine war continues,
47:19the more pressure there will be on India not to buy energy from Russia.
47:22Yes.
47:23Of course, like I said, our defense pipeline...
47:27Sandeep, give me a moment as we try and sort out that audio link with you.
47:30Admiral Sinha, the Duma ratifying the Relos Agreement, what impact will it have on closer
47:36military cooperation and operations together from the Arctic to the Indo-Pacific?
47:42You know, Gaurav, it is very akin to two plus two agreements that we have with the other
47:48three, four countries, particularly with the, you know, the Malabar countries or the Quad country.
47:54We didn't have one with Russia so far.
47:58This will only provide, you know, the emergency or in case the Russian ships are visiting or
48:05aircraft squadrons are visiting, they will be permitted to land here.
48:09They will be permitted to refuel.
48:11They will be permitted to go.
48:12Or if there are exercise between two countries, whether there are ships exercising or the
48:17aircraft, they will positively be birthed inside the Indian harbors and they will operate
48:21from the Indian air force stations.
48:23So, this is one very important.
48:25Though they said that army can also operate from here, but I would think that it will be
48:31limited to doing exercises.
48:32Because, you know, India has got a very firm policy of not having any other countries
48:38boots on the ground.
48:40So, that sanctity will be maintained because the armed forces are not…
48:43Hey, Marshall Chopra, the last one minute I have on this part of the show, is this a
48:47very clear message that we are not looking at American fighter jets for now and that we
48:52find Russia and France more reliable as partners, but will jet engines and spares from
48:59America remain a cause for concern given the way ties are right now?
49:05Yeah, you know, firstly, let me add to what the admiral has mentioned about the RELOS, the
49:10reciprocal exchange of logistic agreement.
49:13I think the greatest beneficiary, of course, will be the Navy because, you know, we are talking
49:18about the maritime corridor between Chennai and Vladivostok.
49:23There is also this Arctic area where we want, you know, Russian support to get into the
49:29Arctic route.
49:30That's another area where there will be a significant.
49:33And, of course, as the admiral mentioned that we will be requiring this for Army, Navy and
49:38Air Force exercises more for Air Force and the Navy.
49:42Yeah.
49:43So, you know, your voice a little… it was not very clear.
49:48Okay.
49:48So, let me also bring in Admiral Sinha on…
49:51You're saying big gains for the Navy.
49:53You're saying big gains for the Navy.
49:55Admiral Sinha, the biggest takeaway you expect from this visit, will it be predominantly military
50:02hardware?
50:03Will it be LNG, fuel or nuclear energy or space exploration or agriculture?
50:10Where do you see more movement in the India-Russia ties?
50:14You know, Gaurav, the… as I mentioned in the beginning, that one of the two important pillars
50:21are defense and energy.
50:22So, they will continue to remain the… because there are very big ticket items that gives Russia
50:28a fair amount of, you know, income from, you know, these purchases and we have to buy.
50:33So, S-400, S-500 should dominate the discussion, the extended range of BrahMos, possibly the jet
50:42engine will be a little more powerful, which can take it to 800 kilometers or 1000 kilometers,
50:47might convert it into a proper cruise missile.
50:50So, these two, I think.
50:51As far as energy is concerned, Gaurav, as you know that the Reliance Industries has already
50:57reduced the purchase of oil from the Russians, so now we are almost cut down to more than
51:0446% of what we are doing.
51:06So, India is now very seriously concerned that India should buy more things other than these
51:16two or explore new areas so that the net loss to the Russians is not very much.
51:22Nuclear energy, space exploration, so these are areas, agriculture, pharmaceuticals, health
51:30care, many, many avenues where the two countries are looking to broaden and widen the horizon
51:35of a time-tested relationship.
51:37Admiral Sinha and Air Marshal Chopra and Sandeep Unitan for joining me here on India Today.
51:42Many thanks.
51:42India Today has the best team of correspondents on ground in Moscow and in Delhi to give you
51:48a 360-degree perspective of President Putin's visit to India.
51:53That is all I have for you on India First this evening.
51:55Many thanks for watching.
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