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Martin Scorsese Presents: The Saints - Season 2 Episode 3 -
Thomas Becket
Thomas Becket
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00:00These are stories of the saints.
00:30Thomas Becket was consecrated as Archbishop of Canterbury in 1162.
00:51This was a position second only in power to the king.
01:00But in the ceremony, there was a pivotal moment when Becket was called upon to select a random
01:08passage from the Gospels, Jesus cursing the fruitless fig tree.
01:17The Gospel according to St. Matthew 2119, never shall fruit be born of thee throughout
01:27eternity, and it was forthwith cast into the fire.
01:33It was a troubling omen.
01:41The story of Thomas Becket is the story of the pitched battle between church and state
01:47in England, of which institution would win ultimate power over the other.
01:59Most merciful God, forgive me for what I am about to do.
02:05The battle over the divine right of kings lasted hundreds of years and left a long line of
02:12martyrs in its wake.
02:16Becket was the most famous.
02:21So famous that Henry VIII tried to strike his memory from every record in existence.
02:28Becket was the son of fairly prosperous, devoutly Catholic, Mormon immigrants who lived in Cheapside
02:35section of London.
02:37He was a man of great ambition, still searching for an opportunity.
02:43God?
02:45Oh, come, Holy Spirit, and bring down from heaven a ray of thy light.
02:57Without thy influence, there is nothing in man which is not weakness and guilt.
03:06Oh, cleanse that which is sordid, bend that which is stubborn, guide that which is wandering.
03:18At this moment, the monarchy was in turmoil.
03:22When King Henry I died, his daughter Matilda staked her claim.
03:28But the Norman barons refused to accept a woman on the throne, and they backed her cousin Stephen,
03:36which led to a brutal civil war.
03:41And in the midst of all this strife, Becket had an interview with Theobald, the Archbishop
03:46of Canterbury.
03:52Have the carriers arrived?
03:54They're coming, my lord.
03:55I want to finish the letter to Chichester.
03:57Of course.
03:59That matters within your jurisdiction should come to us.
04:03Now Theobald was caught in the middle of the conflict because he'd sided with Matilda.
04:07I'm told you're eager to learn and quick to speak your mind.
04:18I cannot say, my lord, that's for others to decide.
04:21I have no time for modesty, but much need of able minds and eloquent tongues.
04:26I understand you, my lord.
04:27Even a lowborn man such as yourself, if he proves useful, can improve his station through
04:33our Holy Mother Church.
04:38The carriers, my lord.
04:40Tomorrow we move to my Surrey Estates.
04:42These men are for my coffers, which go wherever I go in time of war.
04:46Nothing could be left to chance.
04:48I understand.
04:51We shall see.
04:54Theobald was wealthy.
04:58He had palaces in Canterbury and Rochester and Saltwood.
05:05Homes in Sussex, Middlesex and Surrey.
05:09He collected ecclesiastical fees and tithes to the church, as well as feudal dues from all
05:14the territories he controlled.
05:19To rise in the church was to have real power, but it was a constant struggle to hold on to
05:23that power.
05:24To use it not in the interest of the crown, but in the interest of promoting the teachings
05:30of Jesus in everyday life.
05:34If I had wanted the order of service to be rearranged, I would have called for it.
05:39The original order of the service is sanctified by ancient customs.
05:43I need no reminder from lowborn, ignorant men...
05:47The Archbishop is well aware of the venerable nature of practice customs.
05:51Which is why his very slight alteration in the order of blessings is founded in church precedent.
05:59Where can this be found?
06:01In the fourth decretum of Damasus.
06:08Precisely.
06:09Well played, Thomas.
06:25Thank you, my lord.
06:27I should have castled my king.
06:30Another game?
06:34If you wish.
06:37Theobald gave some of the money he was making from surrounding churches to Beckett.
06:42And so Beckett became rich.
06:45Now to modernize, it might look like corruption, but within the world of the church in 12th century
06:51Europe, it was more of a necessity.
06:56Theobald educated him with a tutor.
07:00He sent him to Bologna and other universities to study canon and Roman law.
07:08Maintaining the political balance between the church and the king.
07:12Between defiance and compromise.
07:15This was a constant exercise for Theobald while Stephen was king.
07:20Sometimes he gave Stephen what he wanted.
07:22Sometimes he stood firm.
07:25He always walked a political tightrope.
07:30In fact, Theobald went into exile more than once.
07:35And Beckett made sure that he came back safely.
07:41Once you reach your stand, an oarsman will take you to Dover.
07:44John will have a man there who will supply you with a horse.
07:46Then you will be escorted to Canterbury and home.
07:48I'll be recognized.
07:49There will be clothing for you.
07:51There she.
07:52You'll have to arrive at night.
07:54I can see.
07:55It's the safest way.
07:57And it's hardly been more than three months this time.
08:00Three months?
08:01Three years?
08:02It's a terrible thing to have to flee your own country with Mother Church in your hands.
08:08I pray it may never happen to you.
08:11Come on.
08:12Eventually, Matilda's son Henry, the Duke of Normandy, arrived in England with knights and a mercenary army to take up his mother's war for the throne.
08:33And to secure his own place as the rightful heir to the throne.
08:38After nearly two decades of destructive war, neither side came out victorious.
08:46Theobald and Beckett worked both parties to negotiate a truce, careful to avoid accusations of treason.
08:56They urged King Stephen to make peace with Henry and Matilda.
08:59They urged King Stephen to make peace with Henry and Matilda.
09:03And as the brokers of this peace, they took the opportunity to cement the power of the church as well.
09:23Henry was really impressed by Beckett and he understood that he had played a decisive part in the negotiations.
09:29Theobald rewarded Beckett for his part in the negotiations by elevating him to the post of Archdeacon of Canterbury.
09:39But within ten months, Stephen died from a sudden illness and Henry was crime keen.
09:55Thomas.
09:56My lord.
10:04Walk with me, Thomas.
10:09How are you enjoying your work?
10:11Well, sir, I very much like working for the Archbishop. He is a dedicated man of God.
10:17I hear you're quite the chess player.
10:21I enjoy the game.
10:23Game of strategy.
10:25Entirely.
10:26Cunning.
10:28Indeed.
10:32I'm going to give you a larger board to play on, Thomas.
10:36I like a man of strategy and cunning.
10:40I like him even better in my court.
10:42Some believe that there was a real friendship between Beckett and Henry.
10:57Others differ.
10:58Now, the truth was probably somewhere in between the kind of friendship you find in the business world.
11:04You know, mutual warmth, affection.
11:07And then it can just disappear at the drop of a hat.
11:09Henry made Beckett his lord chancellor. This was the second most powerful position in the government.
11:18But at the same time, Beckett kept his high office in the church as Arch Stephen of Canterbury.
11:25It's as I expected. I laid the groundwork for this very carefully, you know.
11:36I understand you.
11:38That's the point.
11:40You, of all people, understand that the church is God's instrument on earth.
11:53That it serves as a vital check on the greed and corruption of the ground.
12:00That his independence and power must be preserved at any cost.
12:09And to do so, the church needs trustworthy eyes and ears at the king's court.
12:22Yes, of course.
12:24If you prove yourself worthy, this will be good for us.
12:32And for Holy Mother Church, her steadying influence.
12:41Thomas, I want you to remember something.
12:46Never trust the words of princes or kings.
12:52Never.
12:55Becket lived like a king.
13:01I mean, that's what was expected of a member of the king's court, especially the Lord Chancellor, most of all.
13:07He had a fleet of ships for channel crossings, a company of knights, an army of servants, a private zoo, finest foods and wines, kitchen staff.
13:18In many ways, the low-born Norman immigrant lived a more lavish lifestyle than Henry.
13:28So what did Becket think, that he could actually answer to both Theobald and Henry at the same time?
13:36When Henry invaded Toulouse, it was Becket's job as Lord Chancellor to finance the war.
13:47He levied new taxes and the burden fell on the church, on the bishops and the abbots, including Archbishop Theobald.
13:54And Becket, as Henry's enforcer, just bled his old mentor dry.
14:00Theobald actually wrote to Becket and pleaded with him to drop the taxes on the parishes in Canterbury.
14:09These were taxes from which Becket himself was profiting.
14:11Becket never even answered him.
14:16Theobald paved the way for Becket's appointment as Lord Chancellor because he wanted an inside man.
14:24So Becket's reversal was a terrible betrayal.
14:29You have often been called, and you ought to have answered a single summons to my side, now that I am old and ill.
14:38Indeed, it is to be feared that God may punish your tardiness.
14:44If you shut your ears to the core of obedience, forgetting the benefits you have received,
14:51and despising me whom you should have carried on your shoulders in my final sickness.
14:59What did Becket feel in his heart?
15:02Was it shame?
15:04Was he longing to explain himself to Theobald?
15:08Or did he now see himself as Henry's man?
15:13We can't know.
15:15But what we do know is that he never saw Theobald alive again.
15:21And the death of Theobald created a very convenient opportunity.
15:27A vacuum of power that Henry had to fill very quickly.
15:32Just look at me, my lord.
15:37How religious is the man that you want to appoint to that holy office?
15:40You're my man.
15:42And I want my man to be Archbishop of Canterbury.
15:45Your majesty.
15:46Are you truly asking me to choose between the Archbishopric and the Chancellorship?
15:53Why, the opposite.
15:55Think of it, Thomas.
15:57The power of the crown and the power of the church, one and the same.
16:01Years of opposition and bickering abolished with a few drops of holy oil upon your forehead.
16:07Hmm?
16:10My lord.
16:13I must reflect in solitude and prayer on this decision alone with my god.
16:18It's fine.
16:20And I'll think of the earliest possible date for your investiture.
16:25Think of it, Thomas.
16:27Please understand.
16:28It's not a request.
16:38I, Thomas Beckett, chosen Archbishop of the Cathedral of Canterbury and the See of Canterbury,
16:47to profess and promise all due respect and obedience to our Holy Father, Pope Alexander,
16:57and all of his successors.
17:00So help me, God, through Jesus Christ.
17:06Lord, I confess my weakness for the things of this world.
17:12for things.
17:17So many things.
17:19And I ask for your guidance.
17:24What must I do, Lord?
17:28I know that my responsibility is to Holy Mother Church, to her protection.
17:36So what must I do?
17:38I pray that you allow me to walk in your way.
17:43I pray that you will always be in your way.
17:45Pray.
17:46Pray.
17:48Pray.
17:50Pray.
17:52Pray.
17:54Pray.
17:56Pray.
17:58Pray.
18:00Pray.
18:04Pray.
18:06Pray.
18:08Pray.
18:10Pray.
18:11The new role of Archbishop of Canterbury seemed to increase Beckett's faith, and very
18:41quickly, his relationship with the King changed dramatically.
18:47Come in.
18:54Your Majesty, we've just received an urgent message from Canterbury.
18:58So I deliver it in a low tone.
19:02We've been told that the new Archbishop of Canterbury has just resigned as His Majesty's
19:06Chancellor.
19:09What news are you bringing me of this low-born wretch?
19:11Doesn't have the heart to tell me.
19:13I try!
19:16And I am groveling on his knees and kissing my feet!
19:23Theobald had thought that placing Beckett as Lord Chancellor would give him an opportunity
19:28to have an inside man to work on the King, and the King vice versa.
19:34He thought having Beckett as his Lord Chancellor would give him a way to influence the Church.
19:41They were both wrong.
19:44It started four months after Beckett was consecrated as Archbishop.
19:47It is not right that the will of the monarchy should interfere in ecclesiastical matters, nor
20:02that the hands of royal clerks should find themselves in Church coffers.
20:06I hereby demand that you return all lands, properties, and incomes you so unlawfully seized from the Church.
20:16You will redirect the receipt of all funds collected to the office of the Chancellor, your former position,
20:22which I myself now occupy as a result of your ill-considered decision to resign the post.
20:29Little by little, Henry stripped Beckett of all his lands and the fees he collected from them.
20:35This threatened Thomas, and he responded by excommunicating one of Henry's noblemen.
20:41By the authority vested in me by Almighty God, I hereby issue this decree of excommunication against William of Ainsford.
20:51For grave offences committed against the laws and doctrines of our Holy Mother Church,
20:56and for persistently refusing to repent and amend his ways despite repeated admonitions and warnings,
21:04he is hereby cut off from the body of the faithful, cut off from the sanctity of the Church,
21:09and deprived of all spiritual privileges and benefits thereof.
21:15Excommunication.
21:16Excommunication.
21:17To be excommunicated meant to be cast out of the Church.
21:22You became an exile in your own world.
21:25That rootlessness Beckett displayed when he was Lord Chancellor now was turned on the King.
21:33Excommunication was Beckett's most powerful weapon, and he could even use it against Henry,
21:40stripping him of his right to rule.
21:42He did what?
21:43Am I not a patient man?
21:47Have I not given him grace?
21:49Now I have no more love for him!
21:51At the time, if a member of the clergy committed any crime, from theft to murder,
21:57he was tried and punished by the ecclesiastical court, the Church court,
22:01and kept protected from the King's court, the King's justice.
22:06When a priest committed murder and rape, the power struggle between Thomas and Henry escalated even more.
22:14A priest who murders a man in his own home so that he could freely ravage that man's daughter in a bed of hay,
22:21and he is entitled to protection from the royal courts?
22:25He's punished, of course.
22:27Deheaded and debowed is what he deserves.
22:29The Church does not mete out corporal punishment, as you know.
22:31Lest in that...
22:33Don't you quote canon law to me!
22:35You think nothing of excommunicating my nobles when your murderous priest is exempt from the highest law of the land, the crown!
22:43Again, sire.
22:44He was treated with the highest severity that canon law dictates.
22:47By God's eyes, I'll have that man hanging from my gallows with fortnight!
22:51Not as long as the law of the Church stands, and my bishops are behind...
22:55My bishops!
23:04These are men ordained by God, and they will be judged by God, alone, through the instrument of the Church.
23:11Where is this in canon law?
23:13I'm a greater authority than canon law.
23:17These are the words of Saint Jerome.
23:19A mere man should not exact a two-fold vengeance for one single fault,
23:23when God, judge of all men as it is written, judges no one twice for the same offence.
23:30By God's eyes, you mete out a slap on the wrist, and God says,
23:34we cannot punish him again?
23:36It is our desire to heed your word in all things, my good Lord, worshipfully.
23:40If it does not go against that which is right,
23:43if it obstructs the will of God and the laws and dignity of our Holy Church,
23:51we won't dare give our assent to it.
23:53On this day, I put the question to you all, and directly to you, Archbishop,
23:59and the question is a simple one.
24:02Will you obey my ancestral customs?
24:07The answer, my Lord, is yes in every way, salvo ordine nostro.
24:12Salvo ordine nostro.
24:15With the exception of our order.
24:18Meaning that Beckett would uphold Henry's ancestral customs
24:23only when they didn't contradict canon law, church law.
24:27This was an escalation.
24:30It was defiance of the king right in public.
24:33There's poison lurking in that sophist invention of a phrase.
24:38When we meet next, you will agree outright and expressly to my ancestral customs.
24:48Just like Theobald, Beckett had to walk that political tightrope.
24:52And more than once, he was forced to contradict himself to hedge his bets.
24:57And this angered many of his bishops.
25:01Finally, the Pope instructed Beckett to just accept Henry's demands.
25:08But Henry wanted to make a public show of it.
25:12My Lord, I freely consent to all of your demands.
25:18And I declare that I will keep all the customs of the realm in all good faith.
25:24I know I ask the same of each one of you down the line.
25:28My Lord, the Bishop of Winchester, step forward, please.
25:34I consent.
25:43Enter.
25:45The king took everything to a new level.
25:48He put it all in writing.
25:51Henry added provisions that they had never discussed.
25:54One, he put the power of prosecuting crimes committed by the clergy into the hands of the royal courts, the king's court.
26:02Two, he took the threat of excommunication off the table.
26:07And three, and worst of all, he stripped Beckett of his property and he charged him with fraud and embezzlement during his tenure as Lord Chancellor.
26:15Like Theobald, Beckett went into exile in France, but a much lengthier exile.
26:26He left all the worldly corruption and backstabbing behind.
26:33He lived in a monastery where his existence became more and more ascetic and his faith in God grew.
26:39Henry and Beckett met twice during his exile of six years.
26:50Both times, Henry needed something from Beckett and Beckett wanted to pave the way for his return to England.
26:57And both times, it ended in a stalemate.
27:03It's good to see you, Thomas.
27:05Your Majesty.
27:07Are you ready to come home?
27:09I am, my lord.
27:10I want to be back with my people.
27:14You can.
27:16You must understand it's easy.
27:20It's entirely up to you.
27:23It's also up to you.
27:27Thomas.
27:29Why is it you won't just do what I want?
27:33I cannot, my lord.
27:36I must not.
27:37I have an obligation to protect Holy Mother Church, for she is the dwelling place of God.
27:47Mother Church is the dwelling place of your power, and you're using it against me.
27:52All the power God grants us we use for the good of the realm.
27:56Your Majesty.
28:07After six years in exile, with the king's permission, Beckett finally returned to Canterbury.
28:20God Almighty, I offer my thanks and undying devotion for allowing my safe return to my beloved country.
28:28And my beloved church, with whose care you have entrusted me.
28:37He was welcomed as a hero by his monks and by the local citizens, because no matter how inconsistent his behaviour, he had stood up for the church against a power high.
28:54And then, the power struggle started up again.
28:55And then, the power struggle started up again.
28:56And then, the power struggle started up again.
28:57A man who has eaten my bread.
29:00Who came to my court, who came to my court, poor, a low-born clerk, and I, I have raised him high, and now he draws up his heel to kick me in the teeth.
29:06He has shamed my kin.
29:07He has shamed my kin.
29:08He has shamed my realm.
29:09And the grief goes to my heart, and none of you have avenged me.
29:10And none of you have avenged me.
29:11The power struggle started up again.
29:12The power struggle started up again.
29:13The power struggle started up again.
29:14A man who has eaten my bread, who came to my court, poor, a low-born clerk, and I, I have raised him high, and now he draws up his heel to kick me in the teeth.
29:26He has shamed my kin.
29:28He has shamed my realm.
29:30And the grief goes to my heart, and none of you have avenged me.
29:35They were knights on the fringes of Henry's court, and they were out to prove themselves to the king.
30:00Where is the Archbishop?
30:02Here I am.
30:03Go to the cloisters.
30:06I'm not running.
30:08May God's will be done.
30:13The king has tried to keep the peace.
30:16You have excommunicated his bishops, and now you're trying to take the crown away from his son.
30:23Lies.
30:25I tried to exalt his crown, not take it.
30:27God's wounds, how long must we bear this?
30:29And in the Lord's battle, I will fight hand to hand.
30:32Come.
30:33Answer before the king.
30:36I will do no such thing.
30:37I warn you, you're no longer under his protection.
30:40I am under God's protection.
30:42I am under God's protection.
30:45Come out of this church.
30:49If you're going to kill me, you're going to do it here.
30:53Come out of this church!
30:54You have no business to touch me, you pimp!
31:00Hit him!
31:01Hit him!
31:02Do it here!
31:03.
31:16Oh.
31:17Hello.
31:18I think I'm ready for death.
31:22Well, I think I'm ready for death.
31:42The knights were forced to murder him in the cathedral.
31:47Beckett strengthened the power of the church
31:50by forcing Henry's men to violate its sanctity.
31:59It was said that Beckett's blood had miraculous properties.
32:06His relics were carefully guarded,
32:08and he was buried quickly in a stone crypt
32:11to prevent Henry and his followers from seizing
32:14and destroying the body.
32:15Beckett's shrine became one of the most famous holy sites in Europe,
32:21and within three years of his death,
32:24he was canonized by Pope Alexander.
32:31Legions of pilgrims from all over Europe
32:34made their way to Canterbury.
32:36Henry recognized the importance
32:43of joining the cult of the martyred saint,
32:45so he allowed himself to receive a public,
32:49though mostly symbolic,
32:51flogging at the hands of Beckett's monks.
32:56In the struggle for power between the king and his archbishop,
32:59Beckett had the last word.
33:06But the war between church and state went on for centuries.
33:12350 years after Beckett's death,
33:16Henry VIII,
33:17who was bent on destroying the Catholic Church in England
33:20so that he could divorce his wife and remarry,
33:22he got revenge.
33:27The name and likeness of Thomas Beckett
33:29was removed throughout England
33:31from every missal and every prayer book.
33:37But, of course, he is still remembered,
33:39and his saint's day is still celebrated.
33:47Beckett lived in a time
33:48when it would have been virtually impossible
33:51at the highest levels of the church
33:53to not be caught up in politics and games of power.
33:58So what does his sainthood mean?
34:02It could be as simple as this,
34:05that he was able to fully express his faith
34:08and to serve God only with his own death.
34:14In the last split-second of his life,
34:16maybe he could finally see beyond
34:18all of his achievements and his possessions
34:22and beyond all the endless struggles
34:24for power between kings and priests
34:28and look right into the heart of the mystery.
34:30The big question for me, of course, always is
34:53Beckett is always presented as a man of faith, right?
34:56Being in such a secular situation,
35:00was he an opportunist at times?
35:01Ultimately, was he a true man of God?
35:04How does one balance
35:06these two separate possibilities,
35:08so to speak?
35:09The secular and, of course, the faith.
35:12Well, but it's not just secular.
35:14It's political.
35:16It's about...
35:17The whole episode, really, is about power
35:19and about that crush between the church
35:25and the crown.
35:26Mm-hmm.
35:27I think God uses, in a sense,
35:29Beckett's ambition for God's own purposes.
35:31At the end, he becomes ambitious for the church.
35:33My sense is that he has a conversion.
35:35The weight of the office of being archbishop
35:39changes him,
35:40and he realizes who his allegiance is to.
35:42And if he was ambitious to begin with,
35:44God kind of channeled that
35:46into ambition and desire to help the church in the end.
35:49Mm-hmm.
35:49My sense is also that,
35:50you know, we have an expression
35:51called the grace of office,
35:53which is that when you're ordained
35:55or when you take on a certain ministry,
35:56God gives you this certain grace.
35:57And my sense was that he got this grace
36:00to understand that this was his role,
36:02right?
36:03That he was no longer going to be the king's pawn,
36:05so to speak,
36:06but that he had to really focus on the needs
36:08of the church.
36:09And that makes sense.
36:10To me, that makes sense.
36:11You're ordained,
36:12you get a certain grace,
36:13and that enables you to discern
36:16in a way that you might not
36:17have discerned beforehand.
36:18Mm-hmm.
36:19But why in this episode
36:20do I have such a knee-jerk reaction
36:23every time they say,
36:25Holy Mother Church,
36:26I hear, like, Bank of America?
36:29I think it's intentional, Mary,
36:30because that's what we have to face.
36:32I mean, it is intentional in that
36:35the power structure was,
36:37you know, Henry,
36:39and the church was part of that
36:42major facet of the power structure,
36:43so you made sense to try to control it.
36:46Yeah.
36:47I would say two things.
36:48The church was more political back then,
36:50right?
36:51But it also still is political.
36:53It was a political force,
36:54you know, in terms of temporal power.
36:56But the idea that it's a political power now
36:58means it's, you know,
36:59it's a human organization.
37:00And I think, for me,
37:01the deeper question is,
37:02can the Holy Spirit still work through
37:04an organization that is political?
37:06You know, like the church was
37:08much more back then
37:09and still is to a certain degree.
37:11Well, that's, I guess,
37:12what I want to ask about.
37:13Why was it so much more political then?
37:16Well, I think the question would be,
37:18why is it less political now?
37:19And the idea is that it gave up
37:21a lot of the political power,
37:22gave up a lot of the land,
37:24right, in a sense,
37:25and it consciously became,
37:27tried to become less political.
37:28You know, whereas today you have...
37:29Wait a minute.
37:30You say it gave up all the land,
37:31but look at all the cathedrals
37:32and all these cities.
37:33And let's face it,
37:34we're the great real estate holder of,
37:37one of the great real estate holders
37:38of the planet.
37:39But in terms of like actual politics,
37:42direct, in a sense,
37:45influence into politics,
37:46like saying you should vote for this person
37:48is something that the church
37:49tries to stay out of,
37:50which it did not,
37:51you know, way back when.
37:53Yeah.
37:54And they advocated for one king
37:56or one queen, et cetera.
37:58Well, it also tied up that oftentimes
37:59the local rulers would have a lot of say
38:01of who the bishops were.
38:02So at that time,
38:03the king ruled by divine right.
38:05So there was a religious aspect
38:07to the monarchy,
38:08and there was only one church at that time.
38:10This is prior to the Reformation.
38:11Yeah.
38:12So it was the Catholic Church
38:13and the crown.
38:14They were intertwined in God knows how many ways.
38:18And to me,
38:19the thrust of Beckett's story
38:20and of this episode is that
38:22it's understood that there's going to be
38:24a certain amount of back and forth
38:25between church and crown,
38:27but what people rise up against,
38:29beginning with Beckett himself,
38:30is when the crown makes the church
38:32its plaything
38:33and behaves willy-nilly
38:35in the way that we see in the story,
38:37that's when Beckett said,
38:38I'm going to draw a line there.
38:39Yeah, it was very kind of difficult
38:41to disentangle, you know,
38:43where the authority of the church was
38:46and where the authority of the crown was.
38:47But the thing about that
38:48is that the divine right of kings
38:50means that as a man,
38:51you have a right,
38:52it's like saying you're the emperor.
38:54I am God
38:55because God speaks through me.
38:58So who is the pope then?
38:59Well, in other words,
39:01I have all the power
39:02because I have divine right.
39:04Yeah, so divine right of kings
39:06means that the king is in a sense
39:07God's chosen one in that particular land.
39:10But don't put yourself up there with God.
39:12That's where the line is being drawn
39:14by Beckett.
39:15That's the fight.
39:18That's the fight.
39:19But why not if you have that power
39:21as king?
39:23Why not?
39:24You know, who are you to tell me?
39:26And this extraordinary moment
39:28where Beckett is trying the man
39:29in ecclesiastical courts
39:32who is a priest who killed
39:33the father of the woman that he rapes.
39:35Yes.
39:36And you're telling me
39:37that that's going to be ecclesiastical
39:39and we can't take care of that
39:40in the king's court?
39:42What I, I mean,
39:43I could go further with it
39:44in that what I say
39:45and what I believe
39:46and what I think
39:47is a divine right.
39:48In other words,
39:49God is guiding me through this.
39:51And granted,
39:52I'm benefiting from it.
39:53But God is guiding me.
39:55Who are you to tell me?
39:56Even the unlettered peasant
39:58can sense the wrongness of that.
40:00That's right.
40:01And that's why there was such a popular
40:02support for Beckett after he died.
40:04That's right.
40:05That's right.
40:06Yeah, sure you're the king.
40:07You've got divine right.
40:08But make no mistake,
40:09nobody's above the law
40:10or nobody's on the level with God.
40:12Otherwise it literally is,
40:14you know, feudalism
40:15and slavery, basically.
40:17Well, it's always there.
40:18There's always tension between
40:19religion
40:20and the dominant powers in society.
40:22And sometimes they're fighting
40:24and sometimes they're colluding.
40:26And this is,
40:27this is the way of the world.
40:28Well, God told me to.
40:30God told me to,
40:31because he speaks through me.
40:32And I, you know,
40:33I'm looking out for you.
40:34To go to war,
40:35to do this, do that, right?
40:36Yeah, go to war and defend me.
40:37You defend yourselves.
40:38You defend our culture.
40:39We defend who we are
40:40because God has given me this grace
40:41and this power.
40:42As well as the,
40:43the kind of conflict
40:44between church and state.
40:45The Jesuits who were killed
40:46in 1989 in El Salvador
40:48were standing on the side
40:49of the poor
40:50and the government didn't like that,
40:51right?
40:52And so it's always,
40:53I think in the story of Beckett,
40:55you see kind of an early sign
40:56of the church asserting
40:57its own authority,
40:58you know, over the state,
40:59right?
41:00Which is, which is something
41:01that plays out
41:02for the next couple of centuries.
41:03Yes, yes.
41:04My question ultimately,
41:05but I think I know the answer
41:06is because he stayed
41:07in that cathedral.
41:08He hugged that pillar
41:10so that he could be killed
41:11in the church.
41:12To make that point,
41:13one could argue,
41:14well, this is his own pride
41:15that develops.
41:16Right.
41:17But to the point where
41:18he lets himself be killed
41:19by these guys in the cathedral,
41:20I don't think so.
41:21I think it's interesting
41:22between pride
41:23and knowing he's going
41:24to be killed.
41:25Mm-hmm.
41:26And he stays there.
41:27Mm-hmm.
41:28The fact that after he died,
41:29this cult of his blood
41:30Yes, yes.
41:31Kind of sprang up
41:32among the people.
41:33Yes.
41:34And such that the beginning
41:35of Canterbury Tales
41:36is about making a holy pilgrimage
41:39to Canterbury.
41:40Holy blissful mortal.
41:41There were miracles taking place,
41:42that people were healed
41:44from the blood
41:45and that it was circulating.
41:46What amazes me is that
41:48for 800 years,
41:49people have been going
41:50on pilgrimage to that place,
41:52hoping to be changed
41:53somehow themselves.
41:54Yes.
41:55Long before I converted,
41:57my son dragged me to church
41:59to see if God's there,
42:01which I would have never gone
42:03if he hadn't dragged me.
42:04But I didn't believe in anything.
42:07I had no religious background.
42:08My parents were atheists.
42:10I never dabbled in it.
42:12I didn't have a moment with it.
42:14But the faith of the people.
42:16Sure.
42:17I found very moving.
42:19So whether you're Catholic or not
42:21or whether you believe
42:22and that Beckett was holy or not,
42:25as Paul said,
42:26that for 800 years,
42:28people have been going
42:29to this place.
42:30And you think,
42:31what I think of all the hope
42:33and longing and fear
42:36that people bring to those places.
42:40Yes, yes.
42:41And is that not holy?
42:42I want to thank you very much.
42:43Yes, thank you.
42:45I would like to thank you for all the time.
42:46To be able to see your love for me.
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