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00:00.
00:15Have you ever been to Missouri before, Terri?
00:16I haven't.
00:17Everybody here is very friendly, kind of like where you're from.
00:20Not as cold.
00:21I was going to say the nice thing is there's no snow here yet.
00:24I'm glad you're here.
00:25Terri Hook is a good friend of mine now
00:27and a great cop back home in Wisconsin.
00:30I think the first shot goes, like, right here.
00:32And he slumps over like that, and now he hits him again.
00:35And I'm glad she could come and join me here in the Ozarks
00:38to look into the 1988 murder of Ronna Bremer.
00:42Ronna grew up in Iowa, and she met her husband in Iowa,
00:46and they moved to Missouri because his family's from here.
00:49She'd only been here six months.
00:50Right.
00:51She's in a new state with all new family members
00:55because they're all kin to him, and she's here all alone.
00:57It just felt kind of sad.
00:59And the fact that she had young children and was pregnant.
01:02It was very sad.
01:04It was three days before Christmas when Ronna,
01:06who was seven months pregnant at the time, went missing.
01:10According to her husband, she disappeared without a trace
01:13in the middle of the night.
01:15Two years later, Ronna's skull was discovered by hikers.
01:20This is our, I think, fourth case in Missouri.
01:22And in every single case, we had to deal with the caves
01:26that they have here.
01:26Supposedly, there's some kind of cavern that she was thrown into,
01:30but it's very close to one of our suspects' property,
01:34which is interesting.
01:36This case is really complex as there's three suspects involved,
01:39Ronna's husband, Joel, and his two brother-in-laws.
01:42And the stories that they tell from that night are strange.
01:45Are they lying?
01:46Are they trying to cover for themselves?
01:47Are they covering for each other?
01:49We have to figure out one or two actually committed the murder,
01:53and a second one or third one helped hide the body.
01:57Every single suspect's family is related to everybody else,
02:01and all the witnesses or children or wives of everybody.
02:04That is going to be difficult.
02:06That's a nice way to put it, Terri.
02:08And somebody needs to get justice for her.
02:16Hi, Sheriff.
02:16I'm Kelly Seager.
02:17Nice to meet you.
02:18Kevin Turpin.
02:19Nice to meet you.
02:20Saw your name in the file.
02:21Terri Hook.
02:21Winston Carlton.
02:22Nice to meet you.
02:23Good to meet you.
02:23We're excited to be here, Sheriff.
02:24We're glad that you're here.
02:26Been looked at for a long time, and there's
02:27a lot of good investigation that's been done over the years.
02:30Just needs a little push.
02:31Y'all all ready?
02:32Y'all studied up on it already, though?
02:33Already.
02:34Because you know everything.
02:35You worked it.
02:35I have worked it.
02:36Whatever you need, all you have to do is ask.
02:39I appreciate it.
02:39Thank you so much.
02:41I did have the opportunity to speak to Ronna's mother
02:45on several occasions.
02:47And at times, I've kind of got her hopes up
02:49with our investigation, which I look back,
02:52and I don't know if I could have handled it any differently.
02:54But maybe you'll regret that I got our hopes up,
02:57and that we weren't able to bring closure to that case
03:01before she passed away.
03:02OK.
03:04Let's start off putting Ronna's pictures up here on the board.
03:08This is probably going to be Ronna and Joel.
03:10Can you remember how long she'd been married?
03:12Three years.
03:13They were both 22?
03:15Yes.
03:15Right.
03:15Young.
03:16This is going to be Samantha, you think?
03:18She was three at the time of her disappearance.
03:20Yeah, her daughter was three, and Steven was one.
03:23Ronna Brimmer moved to Ozark, Missouri from Iowa in 1988
03:30with her husband and two children.
03:33She was a stay-at-home mother, took care of her kids.
03:36I don't know that she knew a lot of people in this community.
03:39Her parents from back in Iowa?
03:40Right.
03:41Yes.
03:42I couldn't figure out the Iowa to Missouri connection, just because all of Joel's family
03:46was down here?
03:47Is that what made him move?
03:49Most likely.
03:50His connection with his sisters, they were pretty tight.
03:53Ronna and Joel, who also went by Joe, moved a couple of miles away from his sisters, Barbara
03:59and Cheryl, and their husbands, David and John.
04:03They were hundreds of miles away from Ronna's parents, who didn't approve of Joel because
04:08of the way he treated Ronna.
04:09Joel and Ronna Brimmer, they're having some meritable issues.
04:14And he's already got tendencies to be violent with her.
04:18Oh, yeah.
04:19The history of violence, I mean, it's huge.
04:21Ronna's coworkers stated that Ronna would come to work and appeared to have been beaten
04:26up.
04:27And then the most notable documentation would be there was information that suggests that
04:32she had some type of an affair.
04:35And Joel, who had been drinking, had grabbed Ronna by the throat and choked her and then
04:41struck her in the face.
04:43When he caught her with the other guy, they were still there.
04:46In Iowa?
04:47Yes.
04:48And it wasn't long after that when they came down here.
04:51OK.
04:52According to what some people said, Joel had questions about whether or not he was truly
04:56the father of Ronna's unborn child.
04:59If so, that questioning probably placed even more stress on their already tumultuous marriage.
05:06OK.
05:07We'll start with the beginning of the story.
05:09Tell us about that night.
05:10Joel was staying with David and Barbara because of the problems he and Ronna were having.
05:15And Ronna showed up at the house that evening, and they argued in the yard.
05:22And she convinced Joel to go back with her to their house, so they left there.
05:28Two days later, on the 22nd, Joel and his sister, Barbara, they reported missing.
05:35Their sole vehicle, still there.
05:37Her contact lenses, her medication, purse, money, they're still there.
05:42I think the best way to start is if you could just tell us everything that you remember.
05:47Investigators interviewed Joel and his entire family about the night that Ronna went missing
05:52to try and nail down a timeline.
05:55Joel said that he and Ronna continued arguing at home.
05:58When she left to go pick up their kids from the babysitter, he walked off on foot.
06:02And, you know, it's still going through my head, you know, I don't want to do this no
06:07more.
06:08I don't want to be married to this woman anymore.
06:10So I still had my bag, duffel bag thing packed, so I just started walking again, took off.
06:16Joel's sister, Barbara, said that Ronna called her when she realized Joel had walked off.
06:22She was crying that she wanted to go down there, but no, it's not coming back here.
06:28According to Joel's brothers-in-law, David and John, Joel's sister, Barbara, sent them
06:34to drive around town to try and find Joel.
06:36They claimed they never found him and returned home.
06:39Later, Joel said he got cold, so he returned home and fell asleep with the kids in the living
06:45room.
06:46At what point, then, do you realize she's not there, when I got up the next morning?
06:50It all sounded kind of odd, so detectives considered Joel a suspect.
06:55So now on our suspect board, we're going to have three.
06:57I think we should start with Joel.
06:59But because they never could find her body, the case went cold.
07:03As the days went on, the investigation dies off.
07:06In 2001 is when my partner here started to initiate the investigation once more.
07:12At that point is when the witness came forward and told the story about what one of the suspects
07:20had relayed to them.
07:21I believe they were being honest.
07:23They were truly concerned for the fact that they had known about this for a while and hadn't
07:28come forward.
07:29So what story did they tell you?
07:30They had met David Gray.
07:31David Gray.
07:32David Gray.
07:33David Gray told them that he had killed a woman and that he had her in his vehicle, choked
07:37her out.
07:38He just turned around and sort of choked her and killed her and he said, what am I going
07:45to do now?
07:46And I started driving around trying to figure out what to do.
07:50Well, she apparently came back alive and didn't choke her long enough.
07:53And he was laughing, telling me he had to choke the bitch twice, you know, wouldn't die.
07:59And then he took her to a place nearby his residence and disposed of her.
08:04He also told them about John Simpson helping him dispose of the body.
08:08Now we got John Simpson.
08:11John Simpson is married to Cheryl Simpson, who is a sister to Barbara Gray.
08:17And Joel.
08:18Yes.
08:19Guys, maybe next time y'all can get us a case where everybody's not related.
08:22That would be nice.
08:24The witness claims David Gray said that he and John Simpson disposed of Rana's body in
08:29a crevice near his property.
08:30The witness then admitted that back in 1991, his girlfriend found a human skull in that
08:35area, but was scared to get involved and mailed it anonymously to law enforcement in
08:40a neighboring county.
08:41Christian County detectives obtained the skull, which had been unidentified for over 10 years.
08:46Through dental records, they confirmed that it was Rana's.
08:48They searched the disposal site, but they never found any more of Rana or her unborn baby's
08:53remains.
08:54So is this really going to be a case where the husband is really just asleep when his
08:58wife gets killed by his brother-in-law and it's not the husband who did it?
09:01I mean, it might be.
09:02Interesting question.
09:03Joel would have more to gain from Rana being gone than David did.
09:09And his story is stupid with him being asleep.
09:13He didn't hurry up to report her.
09:15Yeah.
09:16How did...
09:17Why is David Gray going around telling people that he strangled this woman, though?
09:20Why would someone tell that story, even if you're drunk?
09:22I know.
09:23Because that's what makes me think he did it.
09:25So that makes us believe they're both involved.
09:28I don't know.
09:29I've never had a case like this before.
09:31We've got a lot of work to do.
09:32Kevin, have you ever met Deanna before?
09:33I've never had her before.
09:34I bet she'll be excited to meet you.
09:35It's been 36 years since Rana Brimmer and her unborn child were murdered.
09:48Sadly, both of her parents passed away, never being able to get any answers or justice.
09:49Hello.
09:50How are you?
09:51Hi.
09:52I'm Kevin.
09:53Today we're going to meet with her big sister, Deanna.
09:54It's nice to finally get to meet you.
09:55You too.
09:56My mom's talked highly of you.
09:57Yeah, we had some good conversations.
09:58Good.
09:59I was disappointed that I didn't have something for her before she passed away.
10:00Sure.
10:01She passed away.
10:02Mm-hmm.
10:03Were you and Rona close?
10:04That's the one thing that's the saddest, is that we never got to that point where we
10:05had an adult sisterhood.
10:06But this was a couple weeks ago before we did her.
10:07He still kind of broke the same call, and as far as the parent, we were going to
10:08make the same call, but to make the same call.
10:09Not the same call.
10:10This was a great job.
10:11She actually shared our relationship with her sister.
10:12So both of our parents passed away, never being able to get any answers or justice.
10:13Hello, how are you?
10:14Hi.
10:15I'm Kevin.
10:16Today, we're going to meet with her big sister, Deanna.
10:17Great.
10:18It's nice to finally get to meet you.
10:19It's nice to finally get to meet you.
10:20You too.
10:21for her before? Sure. She passed away. Were you and Rona close? That's the one thing that's the
10:28saddest is that we never got to that point where we had an adult sisterhood relationship, you know.
10:33She always wanted to be a mom. She got married right out of high school. My sister was a lovely
10:38person. She was just sweet and sassy and we had a great childhood. We'd ride our bikes everywhere
10:43and we went to the ice cream shop a lot. We eventually moved from bicycles to mopeds so
10:49we could go out farther on the country roads. She was just very carefree and fun. It's unfortunate
10:55that someone so evil snuffed that out of her. How did you see all this affect your mom and dad?
11:04It had to have. It's hard. You should never hear those kind of guttural sounds come out of anyone
11:13you love. So that's what I remember. Losing your child. I mean, no parent should
11:19ever go through that. My dad died, you know, shortly thereafter. I think it just broke,
11:25broke him. It broke him. I think my parents never wanted to burden me with a lot of that because
11:34they didn't want to take away my future. So they tried to let me go off to college and,
11:40you know, not worry me as much with it. But was there ever the joy and the happiness that I used
11:45to see in my parents? No. I would say they probably died the day she did.
11:50Did Rona confide in you about her relationship? She did not. I heard the concerns of my parents
11:58that he was being physical. You know, we tried so hard to get her away from him and I just said,
12:03he will kill you if you stay with him. Was that before they moved down to Missouri?
12:06That was before they moved down to Missouri. Is there a reason why they moved down there?
12:11Barbara and her husband and three kids lived down in that area and she was always kind of like a mom
12:15figure to him. Every time anything came up, he always ran to Barbara. Barbara called my parents
12:20a couple of days after she went missing. Do you know what she told them? Just that she ran away,
12:27which seemed very odd to us. She didn't take anything with her and she would have never left
12:32her children. Who ended up raising them? Their father raised them. Joe did do a couple of years
12:37in prison. As if this case isn't bad enough, years later, Joel went to prison for molesting their
12:44daughter. It's not only heartbreaking, it makes you also wonder about his capacity for violence
12:49and deception. When that happened then, they finally granted my mom full custody of the children
12:56when they were high schoolers. I just would really like the truth to come for her children more than
13:02anyone, just so they can have a little bit of peace. Just knowing what actually happened and they
13:07just really never even knew her, which is the saddest thing. Justice will come. We're going to try our
13:12hardest. We are. Thank you. It's nice to see it alive. Square is still going. When I was a teenager,
13:24everybody cruised the square. Yeah. Two lanes of traffic and it was packed. Of course, nobody was
13:29drinking beer, right? Not at all. We want to examine Joel's story and his family's story about the night
13:36we believe Ronald was killed. So we're going to hop in a couple of vehicles to retrace his steps and a
13:41couple of key locations. We're going to Ronna and Joel's residence back in 1988. This is the
13:48neighborhood where they live right in here. Okay. And we're thinking it's one of these duplexes right
13:54here. That one or the one next to it. Joel's story starts at him and Ronna's duplex at 9.15.
14:01Joel said that he and Ronna were still arguing and that when she left to go pick up the kids from the
14:06babysitter's house, he left on foot to go find someplace else to sleep. It's a convenience store
14:11gas station right here. It was at Casey's then. That they walked to all the time to use the phone
14:16supposedly? Supposedly. Joel claimed that he first walked to a gas station named Casey's that's
14:21approximately two miles away. Joel and Ronna used the payphone at Casey's often because they didn't
14:26have a phone of their own. Joel said that he went here because he was going to get a lighter. So that gas
14:33station is where Ronna would have been if Ronna was making the phone call to Barbara that Barbara says.
14:55Ronna's phone call is what allegedly prompted David and John to go and look for Joel.
14:59What's strange is that Barbara claimed that she and Ronna spoke for hours. That's a long time for
15:05Ronna to be talking on a payphone in 40 degree weather with two kids to care for. Was she trying
15:10to convince detectives that Ronna was still alive while David and John were out driving around looking
15:15for Joel? Unfortunately, Barbara has since passed away so we won't be getting any more information
15:19about this phone call. This is a heck of a walk. Yeah. After Casey's, Joel said he walked approximately
15:24a half a mile to his place of work, which is a sportswear manufacturer. And this is where his story
15:29gets the strangest. Right up here is where Barbara and Joel worked, where he allegedly laid down and
15:37slept. Okay. And he said he was going to come here and sleep here until the morning so that he could
15:45get his paycheck. First of all, who's going to sleep outside in 40 degree weather? Joel's story
15:50concludes with him determining that it's too cold to sleep outside and him walking back to his house.
15:54He claims he fell asleep with his kids in the living room, unaware if Ronna was home or not.
15:59Until the next morning, when he realizes that she's actually missing.
16:02It'd be a lot different out here, pitch dark at night, huh? Oh yeah.
16:05The problem with a case like this is that it's impossible to know what's really true
16:10when everybody involved has some reason to want to lie.
16:15Hopefully, checking out the area where Ronna's skull was found can really help.
16:20So what you're seeing here is David Gray's property. It's down below us.
16:24It goes right up the ridge. It goes up to where the skull was found.
16:30Did he have that house back in 1988?
16:33Yeah, right there.
16:34And her body's found where?
16:36Along this ridge up here.
16:37Within eyesight.
16:38Yes.
16:38Yes.
16:39Come on. What are the odds that Ronna goes missing and there's his house and there's where
16:46she ends up? Give me a break.
16:47Standing here, looking at David Gray's house, I'm thinking this is probably the best piece
16:53of evidence we have in the whole case.
16:55Because who else is going to drag Ronna's body up this hill?
17:00And I can't imagine one person did it alone.
17:03Today, you get to meet Samantha, Joel, and Ronna's daughter, who was, what, three at the time?
17:23Three years old.
17:23Three years old.
17:25Most of our witnesses in the 36-year-old murder of Ronna Brimmer and her unborn child also happen
17:32to be suspects. But there's another witness we really want to talk to, Ronna and Joel's
17:37daughter, Samantha.
17:38We want to resolve this case.
17:41It would be amazing. Like, to have answers after 35 years.
17:44Samantha not only lost her mom, she's also the victim that Joel later went to prison for
17:51when he molested her. So we need to approach her and talk to her as delicately as we can
17:57without cameras.
17:58I have my one core memory from that night. I remember her being mad, and it was late.
18:04I assumed she was mad that our dad wasn't home.
18:06Okay.
18:07And we thought the lights go across the wall.
18:09Like vehicle lights?
18:10Yeah, exactly. Like somebody parking in the driveway.
18:12Right. And your mother said?
18:14There he is.
18:15Okay. Referring to your dad.
18:17Okay. And did he come in or?
18:20No.
18:20No?
18:21Samantha can still remember a car pulling up because she saw the headlights,
18:25and her mom going, there he is. But we know Joel was on foot that night. So who gave him
18:32a ride? Could it have been one of our other suspects?
18:36Did you ever ask him where she was at?
18:38Of course. We always wanted to know where our mom was. Like he would tell us that she didn't
18:42love us and that's why she ran away. Every time we'd ask what really happened to our mom,
18:46there was some crazy, mean reason why she wasn't around.
18:50I can understand a father having a hard time explaining to his child why their mother was
18:55gone. But what nobody understands is why you would tell them stories that are so hurtful.
19:00Mother says, there he is. So that goes along with your thinking that...
19:04She came out. She was mad. There was a confrontation.
19:08Everything blew up.
19:09You still got to ask yourself, how much can you rely on a three-year-old's memory?
19:12I think something traumatic like that could have a lasting impression that she would remember.
19:19Yeah, they say it imprints on your brain, right?
19:21Yes.
19:29Well, it's been a long time. Are we all good?
19:32Yes.
19:33It's been 23 years since a witness has come forward with information about Ronna's murder
19:39and the location of her skull.
19:40Fortunately, he has agreed to come in today with his lawyer.
19:45You are the foundation of the case and you're going to be a beautiful witness.
19:49And you're okay with that, right?
19:51I have to be.
19:52Yes, sir.
19:52You know.
19:53The question is, can he confirm his story today?
19:57Is it consistent with what he said back then?
20:00And is he credible?
20:01I was working for and he asked me to go down there on that property of his, clean it up,
20:08live down there.
20:09And that's where I first met Dave, right?
20:13Of course, he introduced himself as my neighbor.
20:15You know, back then, he'd drink and party and he drank a lot.
20:19At some point in time, he had made some comment about don't, you know, say things you find bones
20:28or ballons around here or something to that effect.
20:31After that, he was telling me up there, we drank them all night about how Ronna and her car had broke down
20:38and he went to go get her and she started saying a lot of stuff about she was going to ruin the greys
20:46and I never understood what she could use to ruin the greys.
20:50But anyway, he told me that when she started that, he just started choking her.
20:55I guess he thought he had her killed and she apparently wasn't dead.
21:01So he said he just choked the living hell out of her that time.
21:05What's his attitude like when he's telling you this?
21:08The most painless thing I believe I've ever seen in my life.
21:11He just, I had to kill a son of a bitch twice.
21:16I just laughed.
21:17I thought, damn.
21:19He told me he went and got John Simpson, his brother-in-law.
21:22But apparently they lugged her up the hill and dropped her in the narrow slit in the rocks there.
21:29He went up there the next day and threw some more brush and stuff in on her because he could kind of see her shirt.
21:36Today's story matches what he first told detectives.
21:40It's unclear where Ronna had car trouble, though possibly at the gas station.
21:46We also don't know what information she may have had to talk about trying to threaten the greys' family.
21:52But whatever it was, that could have been David's motive.
21:56John, at no time after that, ever told you anything about that incident?
22:00John never said anything about it, ever to me that I can ever return from it.
22:05I suspect Dave drove up there and didn't tell him what he was there for.
22:10John didn't know what was going on.
22:12Probably he got in that truck.
22:14David never mentioned Joel.
22:16Is that because he was protecting him?
22:18Maybe, but he sure wasn't protecting John.
22:21You read the file and you read how important he is to the case, but you wonder, what's he
22:51like today?
22:52And he was great.
22:53Oh, he was so good.
22:55He remembered everything important.
22:58I don't think he got any big thing wrong or inconsistent, and I think a jury's going to love him.
23:04I hope you guys do your job and I'm alive afterwards.
23:07Hello, John.
23:23You want to jump in the front with me for a minute?
23:25This case is very much complicated by the fact that you have a version of the story that came
23:30out of the mouth of David Gray, according to one very important witness, that David's brother-in-law,
23:36John Simpson, may have also been involved.
23:39Let's go through what you remember of that incident when Rana disappeared.
23:44John Simpson has been interviewed.
23:46He passed a polygraph, but you have this version of the story that puts John Simpson and David
23:52Gray in the middle of the story.
23:53So what do you do with John Simpson?
23:55We don't know until we talk to him.
23:57I went over to, down to Barb and David's.
24:00Barb come out and said, okay, she got a phone call and Ron had called, Joe took off and got
24:04in a fight.
24:05So Barb wanted Dave to go in town, so I went in town with him looking for Joe.
24:09So when you were with David looking for Joe, did you actually go to their duplex?
24:14Yeah.
24:14Did you?
24:15To see if he showed back.
24:15Okay.
24:16I could see her and him at the same time and they just talked a little bit.
24:19So Ron, I came out and talked to David?
24:21Yeah.
24:21In the doorway?
24:22Yeah.
24:22Okay.
24:23And what did he say when he got back in the truck?
24:25Oh, he said he hadn't come back home, so he didn't know where he was at.
24:28So Dave dropped me off and he told Barb he was going to go.
24:31There's like two different ways to go down to their house.
24:33He was going to go check the other way, make sure he wasn't walking that way.
24:36Did you actually see him leave?
24:38Well, his headlights were coming out behind me.
24:39Okay.
24:40John seems forthcoming and admits that he and David stopped by Ron is looking for Joel,
24:46likely making them the last people to see her alive.
24:49But did that play out as innocently as John claims?
24:53Or is it possible that David went back after dropping John off?
24:57Everybody says that you and David hunted around down there a lot.
25:01On the property, if you go up that hillside, there's a crevice.
25:06You familiar with that?
25:07Yeah.
25:07So in that area, that's where Ronna's skull, including part of her teeth, are found.
25:14Was Joel big enough to move Ronna's unconscious dead body all by himself and put it up in this
25:21area we've been talking about?
25:23It'd be hard.
25:25Here's the deal.
25:26We have witnesses that told us that David did this and that he went and picked you up
25:32in Highlandville and helped get rid of her body.
25:36All I can say is I didn't do it.
25:38Coming up on Ronna already dead and helping move her body doesn't make you guilty of murder.
25:43No.
25:43Did you have anything to do with that?
25:46Do you think that David did?
25:47Well, at the time, I didn't think it was possible, but anymore, I'm not too sure, to be honest.
25:52Because?
25:54Just too many things don't add up.
25:56Things don't add up.
25:57John's story seems pretty consistent, and he didn't even get rattled when we confronted
26:02him a little harder.
26:03Right now, I don't know what to think.
26:05If he's a liar, he's good.
26:14Today is the day that I don't think you hold anything back with Joel.
26:19Say some prayers.
26:20You know, we don't need any.
26:21We got this.
26:23We've talked to one suspect, and we've got two more to go.
26:26Next, we want to talk to Ronna's husband, Joel Bremer.
26:29We know their marriage was strange, and he was abusive, and that they argued that night.
26:33At this point, that's about all we're sure of.
26:35Hey, how you doing, sir?
26:36Uh, Joel?
26:37Joel.
26:38Will Joel tell us anything today that suggests that he actually is involved in the death of
26:42Ronna and her unborn baby?
26:44Tell me a little bit about what you remember from back then.
26:46We had an argument.
26:49I went and stayed with my sister for a few days.
26:51Ronna came down and begged me to go back to the, we lived in a duplex at the time.
26:58She was trying to make a scene, so I said, you know, fine, I'll go home with you.
27:02And she had left our kids at my niece's house.
27:05She went to get the kids.
27:07After I took my shower, the more I just got, I said, you know, I can't do this.
27:11I mean, her just ain't gonna get along.
27:15So I packed up a duffel bag, and I headed out.
27:19When I was walking, I went by the, I think it was at Casey's.
27:22I bought me a little half pint of snobs.
27:27When I came out of Casey's down there, I seen my two brother-in-laws, John and David, drive by.
27:35They were heading towards where I used to live.
27:38Joel initially told investigators that he bought a lighter at Casey's.
27:41Now he's telling us that he bought peppermint schnapps.
27:44He initially said that he only saw David drive by, but now today he's telling us that he saw David and John.
27:50These aren't huge inconsistencies, but you have to wonder if he's hiding something.
27:53I went down to where I used to work, so the next day was payday, and I was gonna get my check and go someplace.
28:00You know, I didn't really care about where the hell I went.
28:02It was colder than crap, so I ended up walking back to the house.
28:08And when I got there, I'd never seen her, and I slept on the couch.
28:14And the next morning when I got up, she was gone.
28:18Joel's story still does not make much sense.
28:20Instead of walking home, where he said he didn't want to be,
28:23he could have just used the payphone at Casey's and had Barbara come pick him up and stay at her place,
28:28because that's where he had been the night before.
28:30David wasn't like a brother-in-law.
28:33He was kind of more of like a big brother to you.
28:35Yeah.
28:35At one point, he was like a big brother.
28:36Yeah, I got along better than I do my real brother.
28:39Are you aware that David confessed to killing Ronna?
28:44Oh, he did?
28:45Yes, he did.
28:46I didn't know that.
28:47I never talked to David that much after that.
28:49Why would you never talk to him much after that?
28:51He was working.
28:54But before that, you did talk to him.
28:57Occasionally.
28:58Well, you were at his house all the time.
28:59You just said he wasn't like your brother-in-law.
29:01You said you were closer to him than your brother.
29:04Why would David want to kill Ronna?
29:08I have no idea.
29:09I mean, you had lots of reasons to want to kill her.
29:11You wanted to get away from her, and your history of abuse to Ronna,
29:17the domestic violence arrest that you had.
29:20Yeah.
29:20You and David did something to Ronna.
29:23This is crazy.
29:26Told you all the truth.
29:28I've not lied to you at all.
29:30Ask him.
29:31I don't know what you expect me to say.
29:34Thank you for talking to us.
29:36You guys have a blessed day.
29:40How'd it go?
29:41He went through kind of a similar account to some of the past interviews.
29:46What did Joel say out of Joel's mouth that puts him guilty?
29:51I don't know that there was anything that, because he just kept saying the same things over and over again.
29:57This is going to be his, what, fifth interview in how many years?
30:01Joel Bremer is very consistent, which is very unusual when someone is guilty, and you don't have any witness that points the finger directly at that night, Joel Bremer being the one who killed Ronna.
30:13But the other important thing with Joel is, remember, he also says he was done with Ronna, which I'm like, those coincidences don't happen.
30:21That's the night you're going to walk away, and she also ends up dead by somebody else.
30:24That's crazy.
30:25So I think he is in the middle of it.
30:27But the problem is, if you believe, you don't pick and choose the parts you believe.
30:33He says that David Gray told him John Simpson helped.
30:37I believe, but I don't believe David Gray.
30:41Okay, okay, gotcha.
30:43All right, good point.
30:44So you're thinking tomorrow you're going to get David Gray talking.
30:48He's going to tell us what happened.
30:49I like that.
30:57Hello.
31:09Hi, how are you?
31:10Good.
31:11Is David here?
31:12Yeah, he just went down for a nap.
31:13Oh, he did?
31:14Can we talk to him?
31:15Yeah, if he's got a few minutes.
31:17What's your name?
31:18Trinity, I'm his daughter.
31:19Oh, Trinity, hi.
31:20We've got one last suspect to talk to in the 1988 murder of Ronna Bremer and her unborn baby.
31:27Her brother-in-law, David Gray.
31:29According to a witness, David confessed to killing Ronna and disposing of her body near his property.
31:36The same property where her skull was discovered.
31:39Hello, sir.
31:40Hello, sir.
31:41How are you?
31:42Well, I was trying to say that.
31:43Oh.
31:44I'd like to visit with you for a few minutes.
31:46We don't have a strong motive for why David would have killed her.
31:51But we're looking for any inconsistencies that might implicate him, John, or Joel.
31:56You know, Ronna and Joel's marriage had a lot of problems.
32:00Yeah.
32:01What all did you see?
32:03What kind of problems did you see in their marriage?
32:05They were both too young or too stupid to get married and have kids.
32:10So that was just normal for them to be in arguments and fights, okay?
32:15Yeah, all screaming at each other.
32:17So that's pretty disruptive for you guys, wasn't it?
32:20Yeah.
32:21I sure didn't like it.
32:22Yeah.
32:22And that particular day, she came down here and they were out in your front yard having
32:27words.
32:29And then she convinced him to go back to Ozark with her.
32:31Yeah.
32:32Does that make Barbara get worried about him?
32:35Is that why you were looking for him?
32:36The whole thing had her all worked up.
32:39She was worried about Joel.
32:40Was she?
32:41He was the baby of the family.
32:43Sounds like she took care of him.
32:47Yeah, she did.
32:48Yeah.
32:49She wanted me to go back.
32:51I didn't even help him.
32:52Did you ever find him?
32:54No.
32:55Do you know who all was here when that happened?
32:57Just you and Barbara?
32:58No, John Simpson was here, my brother-in-law.
33:00Did you go to their house?
33:02No.
33:03You didn't?
33:04Where did you go looking for that?
33:06It's up and down the road here.
33:07Okay.
33:08I heard he was walking somewhere.
33:10Now, according to Joe, he saw you drive by Casey's there
33:14in Ozark.
33:14I don't think I went to town.
33:16Okay.
33:17What do you remember after that?
33:19After you said you didn't find him?
33:21We went to bed, I guess.
33:23Today, David is saying that he never went by Ron and Joel's
33:27that night, which contradicts what John told us.
33:30And he's also claiming today that he never went into town.
33:34Is he trying to distance himself?
33:36When they reported her missing, nobody ever saw her again.
33:39And then in 1991, there was a skull found right up here
33:43behind your house.
33:44And that skull was determined to be Ronis.
33:46Do you remember that?
33:49I remember they said it was mailed.
33:51We found the people that mailed it.
33:53And they told us where they found it.
33:55And it was right up here, up the hill from your house.
33:59I just worked out every day.
34:00Those people told us that you told them you got Roni in your truck.
34:05It was upset because she was causing the grief for the Gray family
34:10and you killed her.
34:14I don't think so.
34:16You didn't ever tell him by that?
34:17No.
34:18There were people that said that you told them that
34:20and that you were pretty detailed about what took place.
34:24Based on our investigation, David,
34:27you killed Roni and threw her in that hole.
34:31Why didn't you?
34:32Why would a witness make that up?
34:34And they just happened to get it right
34:36that the very space you told them you put her
34:39is where they found her skull.
34:41We think Joel's involved too.
34:43And we're here today to ask you if he's the one that did it.
34:46Because right now, the only person we're looking at is you.
34:49I think you ought to ask Joel that.
34:51We did.
34:52And he said to come ask you.
34:54Your own mouth sinks you.
34:57Your own words got you.
34:59You're in a bind.
35:00And you're going to end up getting arrested for this.
35:02What we don't understand is
35:04why you're going to let Joel get away with it.
35:09And the reason she's asking that
35:10is that you told somebody that John Simpson
35:13helped you carry that body up that hill.
35:16I don't know that I believe that.
35:17You don't want to hearsay if people are saying this and that.
35:19It's not hearsay if it comes out of your mouth.
35:21It comes from you, David.
35:22Now's your opportunity to tell us about it.
35:24You might not have that opportunity again.
35:27I told you everything I know.
35:29It's clear that David's got nothing else to say to us.
35:32And honestly, we don't have anything else to say to him.
35:36I would have given up 30 minutes before you did.
35:38That's a cold, stone cold.
35:42Excuse my language.
35:43Mother
35:45So now y'all got to eyeball
35:56Joel and David Gray and Simpson
35:59to get a clear picture of how they look in person
36:02and what their stories sound like in person.
36:04We've reviewed all the statements,
36:06talked to the suspects,
36:07gone over all the evidence,
36:09and now it's time for us to run it all down
36:11with the prosecuting attorney's office.
36:13I think that we've learned or confirmed
36:15everything that we can.
36:17I don't know what to think about John Simpson.
36:20He passed a polygraph.
36:21He's always been cooperative.
36:22He couldn't have been any more helpful today
36:24answering our questions.
36:26We hit him hard with,
36:27but why would David Gray say,
36:30you're the one that helped move her body up there?
36:32He doesn't have an answer.
36:34All I can say is I didn't do it.
36:36I don't know if I'd clear him, though,
36:38because if you have
36:39and his story is his story,
36:42we don't get to pick and choose.
36:44Only one about John Simpson.
36:46Apparently they lugged her up the hill
36:48and dropped her in the narrow slit in the rocks there.
36:52It sounds like we're all agreeing
36:54that as much as we don't want to think he's involved,
36:57we're leaving him on the board.
36:58Okay.
36:59Is it possible that John was involved
37:01or that he knows a little more?
37:03The only way we're ever going to know that
37:05is if it comes out of the mouth
37:06of someone who was involved.
37:08So now we got these two.
37:11Joel Frimmer, the husband,
37:13with all the motive in the world,
37:14and David Gray.
37:16Most of the evidence that we've collected
37:17points to David Gray,
37:19which begins with the statements.
37:21The strangling story is so specific.
37:24He just...
37:25I had to kill a son of a bitch twice.
37:28Ha!
37:28I just laughed.
37:29I thought, damn.
37:31I had to choke the bitch twice.
37:34Twice!
37:35Laughing about it.
37:36That's how much remembers
37:37that moment in his brain.
37:39You don't make that up.
37:40And then he says,
37:41if you find bones, don't mess with them.
37:43You have the bones that are found
37:45right next to his house.
37:46You can look out his front door
37:47and see where she ends up being found.
37:50But he couldn't have done it by himself.
37:52Dead weights,
37:53very hard to handle,
37:54very hard to carry.
37:55Right.
37:56And Joel didn't take her up that hill by himself.
37:58When you talk to your prosecutor,
38:00what are you going to focus on?
38:02The problems that she and Joel were having.
38:05And then Joel bringing those problems
38:07to David and Barbara's house.
38:09I think David was fed up with it.
38:11Ronna and Joel's marriage
38:13had a lot of problems.
38:15Yeah.
38:16Yelling and screaming at each other.
38:18I sure didn't like it.
38:20I think what happened
38:21is Joel goes to the gas station
38:23and he calls Barbara.
38:24And Barbara sends David and John.
38:27I think that David goes to the house
38:29to try to find Joel.
38:30He doesn't find Joel.
38:32So David drops John home.
38:34And as he's coming back,
38:36David sees Joel and he picks him up.
38:38And I think then that's how
38:39they end up back at the house.
38:41It's impossible, yeah.
38:42I think what happened
38:43is she comes running out of the house
38:45and maybe she comes at him
38:46and she's all ticked off
38:48and he just is just fed up
38:51and he snaps.
38:52If I was your prosecutor
38:53and I was making an opening statement
38:55or final argument to a jury,
38:56I would acknowledge right away,
38:58look, we're not going to be able
39:00to give you a point-by-point PowerPoint
39:02that lets you see like they do on TV
39:05exactly how this went down
39:07because that's not the way it works
39:08in the real world.
39:09People lie and people cover
39:11and they don't want to talk
39:12on their family.
39:13So what are we going to do about that?
39:14Let them get away with it.
39:16So it is time to hold them responsible.
39:19And it's not just Ronna.
39:21There was a baby.
39:23Yeah, you're right.
39:24There was a baby.
39:26We keep talking about her
39:28like she's dragging around
39:29a bag or something
39:30and there was a baby there.
39:31and that child died
39:33in the midst of all of this
39:35and we can't let that go either.
39:37I think you don't have a lot of time.
39:39Charge them out,
39:40get them in front of a jury
39:41and let the jury make the decision.
39:43There's nothing else y'all can do.
39:45No.
39:45We believe we built a strong case
39:47against David and Joel
39:49and now it's in
39:50the prosecuting attorney's hands.
39:52Okay, so y'all are meeting
39:53with your prosecutor tomorrow morning.
39:55We'll be waiting to hear
39:56what she tells you.
39:56This is exciting.
40:07Very exciting.
40:08These guys are very low-key,
40:10nonchalant about it,
40:11but it's a big thing.
40:13The meeting with prosecuting attorney,
40:14Kristen Tui,
40:15went really well
40:16and now it's time to share
40:18what happened in that meeting
40:19with Ronna's sister, Deanna,
40:21and her daughter, Samantha,
40:22who's very excited to come.
40:24Good morning.
40:25Good morning.
40:26We're glad that you can make it.
40:28We actually just met
40:29with the prosecutor
40:29a little while ago
40:30and the prosecutor has told us
40:33that she's willing to move forward
40:35with this and get some charges filed.
40:40Wow, this is bigger news
40:41than I thought.
40:42It's amazing.
40:43Could either be a big day
40:44or a really disappointing one.
40:45You guys just made it
40:46a really big day.
40:47So it appears to us
40:49that there will be two people
40:50that will be charged in this case,
40:52both Joel and David.
40:56Thank you so much.
40:58It's a good closure.
40:59I can't believe it.
41:01We've waited a very,
41:02very long time for this news,
41:04so it feels good.
41:06It feels freeing.
41:08My mom died two years ago.
41:09I just know that she's been
41:11at work on this.
41:11I just know it.
41:12So it's happening today
41:13because of that.
41:14I just, I'm convinced.
41:16It's a good day
41:17and we're so happy
41:18to give you all good news.
41:19Yeah.
41:19Thank you so much.
41:21Kevin, tell him what you said
41:22walking over here.
41:27Go ahead.
41:28I'll tell him in a minute.
41:29He's close to my mom.
41:30And he wishes she was here today.
41:32Yeah.
41:32Yeah, she is.
41:34And thank you, too.
41:35I mean, she thought
41:36the world of you, so.
41:37When are you going to arrest them?
41:41When can we get them behind bars?
41:43We would like to see them
41:44behind bars probably as much as you.
41:46We are going to move it
41:47as quickly as we can.
41:49And we're committed
41:50to putting in the time
41:51to see this through to the end.
41:54Good.
41:55Thank you so much.
41:56Ronna was taken away
41:57from this world
41:58at a very young age
41:59with an unborn child.
42:01She's had two children
42:02that had to live
42:03their whole lives
42:04being told lies
42:04about why their mother left them.
42:07Both of her parents
42:08went to their graves
42:09not ever getting answers
42:10or any kind of justice.
42:13Thank you so much.
42:15And the hope is that today,
42:18finally, for Ronna's son
42:21and daughter and sister,
42:23they can finally get justice.
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