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00:00Transcription by CastingWords
00:30It's too much for you to bury in the sand
00:34I don't know how many phone calls you get from people, news reporters and stuff,
00:41but they're always calling me and asking me about cold cases.
00:44So my phone rang about six months ago.
00:46She said, hey, what about this case in Kenosha?
00:49She said, this should have been solved.
00:51A reporter, not a cop?
00:52A reporter.
00:53Okay.
00:53A reporter.
00:54I remember the case reading about it, so I made a few phone calls and I knew the sheriff here.
00:58Steve and I are here in his home state of Wisconsin to look into a cold case that's baffled the detectives for over two decades.
01:06The 2003 murder of David Van Der Zee.
01:09He was a veteran.
01:11He was a truck driver, but then he was on disability.
01:13He fell off a dock and injured his back.
01:15The area was kind of a sleepy little summer community.
01:18So it's safe.
01:19It's safe.
01:20It's really safe.
01:20You just don't get shot multiple times in the head in your house.
01:25Shortly after 8 o'clock p.m., David's new wife, Roxanna, arrived home and found David face down on the living room floor.
01:32He was shot five times in the back of the head.
01:34There was no forced entry suggesting that the killer was somebody he had welcomed into the home.
01:38David Van Der Zee recently gotten married to Roxanna.
01:42They'd only been married about two months.
01:44Their relationship seems to move awfully quick.
01:46They meet online.
01:47She moves in.
01:48They get married.
01:48He gets killed.
01:49And then all of a sudden, his wife hooks up with his best friend.
01:52David's wife, Roxanna, became a suspect, as did his friend, John Viscosil, who Roxanna moved in with soon after the murder.
02:02Then it became apparent that David was kind of disliked in the community, which led to even some of the neighbors being considered suspects.
02:10They have a guy who's pretty careful with his belongings, his house, his property, knows about guns.
02:16And he's not the kind of Mr. Friendly that will let anybody into his house.
02:19Right.
02:19And he ends up dead on his living room floor.
02:22It just didn't make a whole lot of sense there.
02:30Have you been to this building before?
02:32Yeah, just once to get a guy out of jail.
02:35How are you?
02:36Good.
02:37I'm Kelly.
02:37I'm Neil.
02:38Nice to meet you.
02:38Nice to meet you.
02:39Thank you very much for coming.
02:39Nice to meet you.
02:40Neil, very good.
02:41I'm Jason.
02:42Nice to meet you.
02:42Jason, Steve McGill.
02:43Nice to meet you.
02:43How are you?
02:44I saw your email from the chief initially.
02:46Yeah.
02:46When I saw his name on the email, before I even opened it, I knew exactly what this was.
02:50Because you know the case.
02:51Yes.
02:51You worked on it.
02:51Yeah, I worked on it.
02:52I really appreciate you guys coming.
02:54And you drafted him?
02:55Yeah, I had to.
02:56I called him up.
02:58This case was news in the entire county.
03:00There's parts of Kenosha County where crime is virtually non-existent, let alone a homicide.
03:06David's mother was a wonderful person.
03:08Every year, she would always bake cookies.
03:10She'd bring treats.
03:11And she always was talking about her son's murder, and she wanted justice.
03:16Feel like home, Steve?
03:17It does.
03:18Even after she had passed away, I felt like I owed it to her and David to solve this case
03:24for her.
03:25How old was David when this happened?
03:29Forty-seven.
03:30From all accounts, he was known as kind of a jerk.
03:33He was kind of hot-headed.
03:34So he was not well-liked in the neighborhood.
03:37His mother was a very nice lady.
03:40I don't know really what turned him out the way he did.
03:43He had a lot of money issues.
03:45I guess I could make someone get squirrely.
03:49Did she even admit that he was difficult?
03:52Kind of, in a motherly way.
03:55Because other families certainly did.
03:57Okay.
03:57David was a decorated Navy veteran.
03:59He was also honored for his service overseas and in the Gulf War.
04:03He was active in the community and the hunting and fishing organizations.
04:07He was involved with the American Legion.
04:09He also recently started another new chapter in his life with his second marriage.
04:14He got married to Roxanna two months prior to his death.
04:18It was like a real short courtship and then they got married really quickly.
04:22Okay, talk to us about your case.
04:24David Vandersea was found murdered in his house.
04:27Roxanna came home, found him dead.
04:29She calls 911.
04:30I need to take a deep breath, okay?
04:32I know you're upset.
04:34Okay, please.
04:37There's blood all over the place.
04:39Signs of a struggle?
04:41No signs of a struggle at all.
04:43There's no evidence that there was any forced entry.
04:45There was actually a steak on the countertop and shrimp cooking on a frying pan.
04:51So he was cooking dinner, preparing for his wife to show up.
04:54Autopsy happens.
04:55What do we learn from that?
04:56He was shot five times towards the back and the side of his head.
05:00David was shot with either a .38 special or a .357 Magnum revolver at close range.
05:06The fact that David was shot in the back of the head suggests that he trusted the individual who was behind him well enough to turn his back on him.
05:12The deputies start talking to people.
05:14The guy that lives right across the street, his nickname was Rick the Prick.
05:18There's a well-known beef between these two.
05:20While they're actually processing the scene, he's having a bonfire in his backyard.
05:25He's excited that something is wrong with David.
05:28Right.
05:28I think that's why this case has been sitting here so long, because he was not well-liked.
05:33Rick Bitsu, also known as Rick the Prick, has passed away.
05:37But with David's reputation, we have to consider whether Rick or any other of David's neighbors might have been the person who killed him.
05:45That said, investigators consider two others as the prime suspects.
05:50So who do you all want to put on the board first?
05:52We can do Roxy in first.
05:53What is it about her that shows she has the propensity or the capability of committing this kind of murder?
05:59Because I don't think you wake up one day as a middle-aged woman and be able to do this.
06:04David had his issues, but was he that bad?
06:06He's very controlling.
06:08Basically, she had no say-so in anything.
06:10On the night he ends up dead, she's going shopping.
06:14Is that by itself unusual?
06:17Based on her own admission, he controlled all the money.
06:20She had basically no access to money.
06:22But the night this happens, all of a sudden, she's out on her little shopping spree.
06:26And, you know...
06:28That's a good point.
06:29Roxanna had an alibi because she was out shopping at the time, and she even has the receipts to prove it.
06:35But that doesn't mean that she couldn't have planned the murder.
06:38Some people believe that she was having an affair with a friend of theirs named John Viscosil,
06:43but who everybody in the neighborhood called Limo John.
06:46Limo John was kind of like his only friend.
06:48And then they find out, after David Van Der Zee's funeral, Limo John and Roxanna are now living together.
06:55She just picked up, moved out of her old house, and moved in with Limo John.
06:59Limo John had a live-in girlfriend named Janie at the time.
07:03And back then, Limo John and Roxanna denied to everyone that they were having an affair.
07:08But soon after, Janie's out of the picture, and Limo John and Roxanna moved in together.
07:14Since then, they split up.
07:17If they conspired to kill David, maybe they'll no longer be protecting each other.
07:23The night of, his alibi is...
07:25Fishing.
07:26Janie said that was not like him to be fishing alone, especially that time of year.
07:32And then later on, he says he never saw it coming.
07:36Oddly enough, when John was questioned by police, he indicated that David never saw it coming.
07:40Was that because John was the individual who took the shot to the back of David's head?
07:45He never saw it coming. That came out of Limo John's mouth.
07:48Yep.
07:48That's exactly what happened.
07:50He never saw this coming.
08:03David's brother, Tim. This guy's quite the character.
08:06We've got a crime scene to talk about, witnesses to re-interview, and phone records to analyze.
08:13But first, we're meeting with David's brother, Tim.
08:15Hello, Timothy. My name is Kelly. Nice to meet you.
08:18How you doing?
08:18Good.
08:19Tim did not get along with his brother, but he wants to get answers for his mom
08:24because he knows how much his mom had invested in trying to get justice for her son.
08:28When my brother died, it hit Ma real hard, and Dad was in the nursing home.
08:35The hardest thing I had to do in my life was tell my old man that his kid got whacked.
08:41I look at it this way, you know, to bring closure to Ma and Dad.
08:46That's right.
08:46You got to do what you got to do.
08:47We were hoping that by the time my father passed away, it'd be solved.
08:55He passed away, then Ma passed away.
08:59It was too late for them to see the case solved, but now's the time.
09:04I feel like you're a straight shooter, right?
09:06Yep.
09:06So we can read in the file what a lot of people said and thought about your brother.
09:11Oh, yeah.
09:12And what do you say?
09:13I got along with him somewhat when it comes to Ma and Dad.
09:17He had his views and I had mine.
09:19How'd your mom describe him?
09:21Ma got along with him, supported him, you know, loaning him money to buy his house.
09:26Did you know anything much about his wife at the time, Roxanna?
09:30I was at their wedding because Ma told me I had to go.
09:33You know, they got married in the park down at the beach.
09:37Other than that, and...
09:39Was your brother generous with his money?
09:41What was his financial situation?
09:43He was struggling.
09:45Okay.
09:45Because he always borrowed money from Ma.
09:47There's not a really clear motive here for why Roxanna would have wanted David dead.
09:53It doesn't seem financial, but you have to wonder if Roxanna didn't appreciate that David was broke
09:59until after they were married.
10:01When he ends up getting murdered, Roxanna did what?
10:05All this.
10:06She went and lived by Lin-Manuel John's house.
10:08Okay.
10:09All my theory is he was jockeying her.
10:12You mean screwing?
10:13Yeah.
10:14When?
10:15Before or after?
10:17During, yeah.
10:18What do you think about knowing that the person who shot your brother, there was no forced entry into that house?
10:24Well, in my theory, somebody knew him, went in his house and did it.
10:29I think that we can all appreciate talking to Tim that he's very honest about his brother and what he's really like.
10:37That's what it is.
10:38Yep.
10:38Yep.
10:38Even with all that, though, you can tell how much he's fighting this fight today for their mom because he knows how much his mom tried to get the sheriff's department to keep investigating the case and how much it bothered her losing a child.
10:53The passage of time for all of us might make a case harder to work on, but it doesn't take away the pain of the family.
11:00And that's kind of what Tim is reminding us here today.
11:07Going over the notes, the mom made a point of saying how much Dave was around guns and hunting.
11:13He's not an un-gun-savvy guy.
11:16So anybody that knows him is going to know to try to catch him unaware, right?
11:21We don't have access to David Van Der Zee's lake house, so we've constructed a mock crime scene to try and talk about what really happened or what we think happened that night.
11:30What can this tell us about his killer?
11:46David Van Der Zee was shot and killed in his lake home in 2003.
11:53We've constructed a mock crime scene to re-look into what happened that night.
11:58What can this tell us about his killer?
12:01Was it his wife?
12:03Was it his friend and wife's alleged lover?
12:07Or was it somebody else completely?
12:09Those are the little things that we're going to try and pick up on as we talk about all this here today.
12:13This is the breezeway door.
12:14It's kind of like a porch area.
12:17And the kitchen is right here.
12:20He's cooking, anticipating her to come home for dinner.
12:23Okay.
12:23Let's talk about David.
12:25He's found where and how in this living room.
12:27So his face is kind of this general area.
12:30His feet are over here.
12:32As far as ballistic evidence in the house, we know about this one picture frame that has a hole in it.
12:37Where's the picture frame?
12:38Right there.
12:39That one right there.
12:40So that trajectory right there tells you what all about your shooter.
12:44Can you tell if your shooter is still standing up or sitting down?
12:48He's standing.
12:49Plus it also would be consistent with that shot to the jaw.
12:52In here and out here.
12:54Yeah.
12:54How far distance do y'all think there is from the end of the barrel of our weapon to his head?
13:01That's a stellate wound right here.
13:02Yeah.
13:02I'm talking within two feet.
13:04Within two feet.
13:04Within two feet.
13:05The injury to the right chin was a stellate wound.
13:08Think of a star-shaped wound.
13:10And basically what that's caused by is the gun is near the back of the head right here.
13:14The jaw in this instance goes through the jaw and the hot gases come out, tearing the flesh as it comes out.
13:21So it leaves this stellate or star pattern.
13:23I'm sure he was aiming toward the top of his head and David was moving.
13:27He could turn.
13:28So obviously his first one misses what he wanted to accomplish.
13:31Yeah.
13:31But it was enough to put him down.
13:33If you consider the wound to David's right jaw and the bullet hole in the picture frame,
13:37you have a pretty clear trajectory of what I believe was the first shot that was fired and sent David to the ground.
13:42Jason, you be our shooter and y'all walk from the kitchen in here and kind of talk through where you think everybody is when this happens.
13:50I really think he's cooking.
13:51The suspect says something like, hey, it's me.
13:54And David says something like, yeah, come on in.
13:56I'll follow you in.
13:58He turns in there.
13:59First shot.
14:01Bam.
14:01He goes down.
14:04And then he's going to get four more shots right in the back of the head just to make 100% sure that who I just shot is going to be dead.
14:11One, two, three, four more.
14:13And then I'm out of here as fast as possible.
14:14And how do you leave?
14:15Which show are you leaving out of?
14:16Same way I came in.
14:17Same way he came in.
14:18Golly, timing that.
14:19How long did that take, the whole thing?
14:2125 seconds at the most.
14:22David did not have very many friends, so only a few people were ever welcome in his house.
14:27And his neighbor, Rick the Prick, was not one of them.
14:30But our suspect, Limo John, was.
14:33He even admitted to stopping by earlier that day to pay David for some cleaning supplies.
14:38Then the next thing that we know is that Roxanna comes home.
14:43She finds him.
14:44Her initial statement was, she came in the house, dropped her purse, and called 911.
14:50The details of the crime scene support the theory that Limo John is involved in killing David.
14:56As for his wife, Roxanna's possible involvement, maybe there's some clues in the 911 call that she made.
15:03She came in the house, she came in the house.
15:33She came in the house, she came in the house, she came in the house, she came in the house.
15:35She came in the house, she came in the house.
15:37There's blood all over the place.
15:39Where's the blood coming from?
15:44I'm going to get my name.
15:48Now you hear a run.
15:50She didn't want to answer questions.
15:52Yeah.
15:52Hello?
15:53Hi, who's this?
15:54This is Kevin, I'm the neighbor.
15:56Okay, what's going on?
15:57I have no idea.
15:58Okay.
15:59She just ran over crying.
16:00Don't hear me.
16:01Can I go in by giving?
16:03Roxanna told the dispatcher she didn't know what happened to David but later seemingly told her
16:20neighbor that he had been shot anybody would have clearly noticed that David had a head injury but
16:24there were no shell casings on the ground and I'm not sure that even I would have known at that
16:28point that he had been shot how did she know he was shot right away unless there's more to the
16:32story you call 9-1-1 thinking all you're going to say is we need help this is the address and that's
16:38the end of it you don't realize that good trained dispatchers start asking real questions that you
16:42have to answer yeah and in that moment you're not sure how to answer and that's when she takes off
16:46to the O'Halloran's and she's screaming it's it's staged I don't think she's even crying there I
16:52don't either I think she's got that fake crying fake crying I think on a jury 10 people would agree
16:59with us but there might be two that think it is real crying because you never know how people
17:03are going to read it for the most part it looks a little overdone it does kind of feel like Roxanna
17:09is running over to the neighbor's house right at the same time she's starting to get asked more
17:15specific questions about what's happening that day is she avoiding the questions it's also telling that
17:21at one point she does say she knew that David was shot limo John said that David never saw it coming
17:28well maybe Roxanna did
17:30I'm here to talk about the David van der zee on side do you remember that I remember it okay and I
17:50remember it was unsolved we're making some progress in a 2003 murder of David van der zee it's time we
17:56speak with his neighbors to see if they heard or saw anything the only thing I can kind of remember
18:03is Rick the prick was maybe being looked at I think people were just talking about who might have did it
18:10limo's name came up and Rick's name came up okay and everybody said he had a lot of enemies can you
18:16describe your relationship with David first when he moved in it was fine and then what's wrong with
18:23him he made my life a living hell yeah this man was nuts yeah really he was the car would go down
18:31the street he would call the police and say they went through those stop signs oh he aggravated people
18:37so bad but as bad as that guy was I wish you would have found who did this because that's not right do you
18:46remember anything about David and his then wife yes she used to come home at six o'clock promptly
18:53every single time but this night she didn't that's interesting and I think there was something going
18:59on between her and this little John who she was that night and stayed with according to this witness
19:05Roxanne always got home promptly at the same time right after work but not that night was Roxanne
19:12doing things a little differently to make herself an alibi typically Roxanne came home every day at
19:17six o'clock promptly and on this day what a circumstance she didn't you know the whole cell phone story
19:35it's like the meat of the window of what we care about the most right right one great thing about this
19:40case is that we have cell phone records we know that Roxanne called 911 at 8 20. the question is can
19:47we gather anything from the calls made before that 911 call at 7 46 a.m. Roxanne calls limo John's home
19:56phone I don't think it's necessarily the plan talk I think they talk every single day as she's driving
20:03to work and her sweetie pies home all alone yeah do we know what limo John or Roxanne talked about at
20:097 46 in the morning that day no but we sure know that they probably had a little bit more intimate
20:15relationship than they're telling everybody for them to need to talk to each other that early in the day
20:21okay what's next at 1 29 p.m. Roxanna receives a call from John's cell phone why is the need in the
20:30whole world to call John again when she just talked to him that morning so the next call 2 55 p.m. Roxanna
20:39calls Dave's cell phone she's calling her husband chit-chatting hey what we gonna do for dinner yeah no big
20:46deal at 5 43 p.m. Roxanna calls John's cell phone dang who's the first person she calls when she gets
20:54off of work John but they're just friends and then at 6 43 p.m. Roxanna calls Dave at home she's shopping
21:03around this time yeah grabbing receipts okay so at this time we think Dave is still alive and at home
21:08yep at 6 43 p.m. while Roxanna was still shopping she called David she told the investigators that
21:16they just talked about what he was making her for dinner this marks the last time we know that David
21:22was alive at 6 46 p.m. Roxanna receives a call from John's cell phone how long is the call a minute and 52
21:30seconds what do you think in that conversations about he's home let's do this now yeah now there is no phone
21:38usage until 7 36 p.m. Roxanna calls John's home phone and this is the Janie call she was home early
21:46this day cuz she had that doctor's appointment and that's why she remembers it all I was home when I
21:51shouldn't have been normally at home but who doesn't know that Roxanna yes at 7 36 p.m. Roxanna called the
21:58home where John lived with his girlfriend Janie according to Janie they chatted for just a few
22:03minutes about shopping in their bowling league you gotta wonder if Roxanna was hoping that John would
22:09have been the one to answer that phone I think Roxanna called to see if he was home yet after doing
22:15it yes okay the next call is at 8 11 p.m. Roxanna receives a call from John's cell phone this is the
22:25it's done call 52 seconds 52 seconds dang my theory is is that she is somewhere close to home because
22:35then at 8 20 is the 911 call so I think she hung around the area waiting for that phone call the
22:43timing and the frequency of all these phone calls give us all these little beautiful pieces of
22:49circumstantial evidence why would John need to call Roxanne when he talked to her here and he talked to
22:57her here and he talked to her there on the very night the Dave ends up being found murdered nine
23:04minutes before 911 call is made this is huge as a prosecutor this is the kind of evidence that you
23:11hope for it's never gonna be a smoking gun it's gonna be and here it is beautifully all these little
23:19bitty pieces you can make an argument that she convinced him to do it for her she gives herself
23:24an alibi he does the dirty work yeah you last talked to Janie more than 10 years ago yeah I think
23:48it's hard for her to process a close friend of mine was murdered and my boyfriend is now with his wife
23:55easy for us to talk about it but she lived it right Janie was a friend of Roxanna's and Limo John's
24:02live-in girlfriend at the time and Roxanna even stayed in their house right after the murder hi how are
24:09you I'm fine thank you for meeting with us we're wondering what Janie can tell us about Roxanna and Limo
24:17John's alleged there back then and maybe even more about what happened that night how did you meet
24:23Dave how did you meet Roxanna um so I met Dave first through John met Roxanne when she started dating Dave
24:33did you go to their wedding yes I was her bridesmaid oh whatever when and how do you think this
24:41connection happened between John and Roxanna right under Dave's eyes oh yeah it's Dave confronted him
24:48about it oh we didn't know that we didn't know that oh no Dave told him to stop following his wife
24:55around panel and John tells you that huh yeah what did John see in her what was the attraction I think
25:06she needed saving she was a damsel in distress and Dave wanted kinky sex and she was upset by that
25:16when the investigators searched David's property they found some pictures on his computer of Roxanna
25:23in some kind of fetish style sex acts could this be another reason she was unhappy in the marriage
25:29possibly let's go back to the the day this happened so I got home earlier than usual John informed me
25:36that he was going out fishing it struck me as odd because I hadn't known him to go fishing at night
25:45you saw him out on the lake I did okay yeah so after a while he came back he was already dark by
25:52time I heard him come in and heard him start the washing machine put his clothes in the washer
25:59and does he strip down in the room where the washing machine is and put the clothes right in the
26:03washing machine right then and there and says what for the need for the urgency anything he said that
26:09he got wet getting out of the boat John's washing his clothes could mean that he was trying to get rid
26:17of gunshot residue or David's blood so after a while he got a call on his cell phone and he told me
26:24that big call was from the guy who lived across the street yeah Rick the prick and that Dave had
26:31been shot Roxanne was upset allegedly right but she did come to your house later that night I wanted to
26:38help and she was upset but when I got up the next morning to go to work and I found them holding hands
26:44on the couch as I stumbled to the shower I wasn't at the real happy camper when I went to the wake by
26:53that point John and I had officially split he just told me that he did not love me anymore I was like
27:03it's too bad Dave had to die for you to get busted these are kind of like just the summer cottages the
27:17houses are not real fancy they're right on the lake too cold I was just gonna say they freeze not a lot
27:22of people you know come up here this lakeside community gives this case a unique possible
27:27scenario law enforcement looks at both egress and ways that the suspect got to the crimes that
27:35lake provides a perfect exit and entrance to commit this crime we're gonna get over by John's property
27:41we're gonna kind of skate around like where he would have gone and then we're gonna end up over
27:46here on this side of the lake let's go check it out okay so driving yeah I'm driving according to
27:51limo John and Janie he took his boat out on the water around 6 p.m. based on the phone records we
27:58believe that David's murder happened between 6 43 p.m. when he last spoke to Roxanna and 8 11 when John
28:06called her are we untied if John committed the crime that gives him roughly a 90-minute window but
28:14what are all the reasons why you're thinking he used a boat instead of driving you can say I was on the
28:18boat yeah alibi himself alibis himself if he drives to David's house if someone sees his car there and
28:25then they see all law enforcement of fire and rescue show up some of them say hey I saw John's vehicle over
28:31there a while ago driving from limo John's house to David's would have been faster but it would mean
28:36taking a main road and parking near David's house both of which could have drawn attention the lake on the
28:42other hand was dark and if somebody spotted him out there he had a perfect excuse so this this is his
28:47house right here the one with the white picket pants and the white yeah yeah he can walk right
28:53out his back door hop right on his boat so let's say right now he he gets on his boat he's gonna leave
28:58so I'm gonna do a conservative pace speed yeah
29:02so since he lives on the lake he has lake rights so if you go visit people around the lake this is
29:20somewhere where you can pull up and just tie off conservatively driving as fast as we just did took
29:26how long to here 10 minutes so from here do you know which way to go to get to Dave's house yep
29:38lead the way these homes here 95 of them are gonna be empty that time of year is that our house yep
29:47right here four minutes 47 seconds so if you think about after a boat ride okay in this walk he leaves
29:53his house ties up he's here from house to house is 15 minutes at the most in my opinion wow so your
30:00timeline works easy easy very easy it's clear limo John could have pulled this crime off during the
30:06murder window the lake would give him a discreet way to approach David's house a believable excuse if
30:12anybody saw him on the lake and a simple way to ditch the murder weapon on the way home just toss it in
30:17the water it goes down 25 feet and the chances of us finding it now are zero okay what's the plan
30:34for today what you thinking I'm thinking me and you will go make contact with Roxanna Jason and Steve go
30:39talk to limo John okay they're not gonna call each other that fast as long as we're both sitting in
30:44front of the houses we should be okay yeah I think so yeah yeah the plan is this morning to try and
30:49simultaneously approach both suspects Roxanna and John they don't talk anymore we don't think but you
30:56never know all right thank you guys so y'all at noon what direction is John gonna go does he answer
31:02the door does he talk to us cordially for five minutes and then tell us to take a hike my experience
31:07has been they cooperate and when the hard questions come that's the end of it because they know they're
31:11locked in they know that they cannot get out of the spider web anymore I would think the only thing we
31:16could say is we're hey we're talking to Roxanna right now yep this is your opportunity to gives
31:21your side I would say something like we know John Viscosil is a shooter yeah and how long do you think
31:31he's gonna stay silent protect your ass before he flips on you right they don't have to talk to us so we
31:37need to start off nice and friendly and then the longer they agree to talk to us the more we'll
31:42try to drill down into their inconsistencies and start asking more pointed questions to see how they
31:48react John's not here but we need to talk to him now we're gonna call and hope he doesn't hang up on
32:01us hi Roxanna how are you I'm good what can I do for you do you remember me I'm Lieutenant Paulson with
32:08the Couch County Sheriff's Office do you remember me no I don't okay it's just a bad time right now
32:13I got breakfast I'm you know can you can you give me 10 minutes at the most I guess
32:19we hi is this John this is him hi it's Detective Silsky with the Sheriff's Office how you doing sir
32:27um I am a lawyer this pertains to that shooting case years ago can you tell us anything about that
32:37about what about the shooting case I wasn't there I don't know none about it and he got shot and killed
32:43how did you and David meet uh I think it was match.com or something you guys were only together
32:49for about eight months and then you got married correct yeah it wasn't very long um okay I don't
32:54know how to describe it he he just turned out not to be the person I thought he was and what did you
33:00think he was and then what did it turn out not to be he was kind of into porno and stuff like that
33:07okay is that not your thing or no okay Roxanne is telling us the same thing she told Janie that
33:14she and David were not on the same page sexually that doesn't seem like enough of a motive to want
33:20someone dead but are we really getting the whole story here the file does make a mention that at
33:26some point y'all had a little bit of issues because you called him even after y'all were dating sending
33:32out pictures of as you know what to other women yes yes what about that what can you do they were
33:39out on the internet did he ever try to get you to do stuff like that too no no no investigators
33:46found pornographic pictures of Roxanna on David's computer it's pretty clear she is not aware that we
33:52know about those pictures you understand that there's a lot of things that kind of point toward
33:57uh some suspicious circumstances regarding you and Roxanna I guess you know but she was just a good
34:04friend at the time uh-huh and then she moved in here she only was there for a little while and she
34:10moved out here's the deal John there's other investigators talking to Roxanna at this very
34:15moment we're anticipating she's going to be cooperating with us I understand so I don't want her to
34:23tell us something that's not accurate if if you can tell us you know your side of this do you
34:30understand my lawyer told me not to talk to anybody without him being present so that's the way I'm
34:36going to play this now this is what's going on we're talking to you right now there's another group
34:41of investigators that's talking to limo John right now okay okay I can tell you that I have no doubt in
34:48my mind that John killed David I really don't think so you know John this whole murder is just
34:54a chain of related behavior and it leads right back to you you know that yeah I guess it all does you
35:00know I look it looks dead I don't admit it you know I'm fishing I had really no alibi other than I
35:04was out on the boat I think you know exactly what happened to David I really don't well it's also all
35:11the phone calls back and forth not just that day but in the days before him and I talked all the
35:16time but why we were good friends but he had a girlfriend and you were married and your husband
35:21had to go to him and say stop following my wife around everybody talks to other people but everybody
35:26knew there was something going on between y'all before your husband ended up dead I don't know who's
35:31been saying that it's a small town people talk how many times do you talk to her that day of the murder
35:37john god only knows I don't know maybe once maybe twice maybe three times I have no idea you got my
35:45cell phone because I don't remember your friend is shot in the head what was your comment that you
35:51made he never saw it coming he was shot in the head I never knew that you made those comments
35:57I think he was trying to get as much information from us as we were trying to get from him
36:12he wants to be a little bit of a friend and then when you start to pin him down about answering more
36:16questions he starts swearing he gets evasive he gets mad we know john killed david I really don't
36:23think he did it and you know he did it roxana how can we believe you when you sat here and told
36:28us that you didn't even get into the naked picture things with your husband we have pictures of you
36:32come on roxana sure it was me oh I absolutely know it was you it's even in a file on a computer
36:38with your name on it that's okay to hide from that that's okay you've passed out in your life
36:43but don't sit here and ruin the rest of your life by pretending like we believe you when you say
36:47I don't think limo john did it you know he did it we know he did it the question is are you
36:52going to tell what you know on him are you going to go down with him when he throws you under the
36:57bus that is the question anything I really don't because I guarantee you limo john viscous seal is
37:02going to talk as fast as he can when he's got handcuffs on his wrist I'm done you guys please I'm done
37:07you know 23 years later roxanne looks like anybody's grandma doesn't look like she's scary or sinister
37:15or a master manipulator at all she's minimizing her relationship with john which isn't smart
37:21for the most part she's still pretty much telling the same thing she always said
37:25she's pretty cold though she is I didn't see her shaking no I didn't see her nervous
37:30signs of deception I didn't see any no she is good
37:33are y'all tired oh we're good yeah how are you guys doing yeah one more day we've made good
37:51progress in david van der zee's case and uncovered new pieces of circumstantial evidence that further
37:58shows us who all was involved in killing him okay when you think about the whole case all these
38:06people that once upon a time we wanted to look into I love what they all told jason and that david
38:11was not a great guy but he didn't deserve that as bad as that guy was I wish you would have found who
38:19did this because that's not right brick fits he was a possible suspect but he's the one calling
38:25people to get people over to the area he got a call on his cell phone from the guy who lived across
38:31the street yeah rick the prick and that dave had been shot rick's not going to be getting more people
38:36over to the area if he just killed somebody so all of our thoughts for anybody trying to say it's
38:41somebody else in the neighborhood maybe even rick the prick what do you think about that today
38:46I think it's even more clear that there's nobody else involved we knew when we started working on
38:52this case that there were neighbors that didn't get along with david but we didn't find any evidence
38:57that rick the prick or any other neighbor was responsible for killing david this crime happens
39:03in a very quiet community there's no forced entry there's no evidence of a struggle nothing's missing
39:10I think david knew whoever was in his house it was someone that he was friends with enough to
39:15welcome in and your point even at one point turn his back to it's even more clear that john shot him
39:23johnson david never saw it coming yep he didn't see it coming and john would know that
39:30for axiana always is home at six o'clock the day david's murder not home at six
39:35she used to come home at six o'clock promptly every single time but this night she didn't the phone
39:42calls all day long right up until and the one right after at 8 11 p.m roxana receives a call from
39:49john's cell phone 52 seconds this is the it's done call this is huge you know he falls out of the lake
39:58is what he's claiming i heard him come in and start the washing machine put his clothes in the
40:05washer he said he fell on the lake because he had to justify the need to put him in the washing
40:11machine immediately right and then the 911 call she makes a statement of he's been shot
40:16how in the world does roxana know that well she knows that because
40:27she knows john was going to shoot him
40:29what's the other unusual thing that roxana does that day she goes home with john and janie
40:38janie wakes up the next morning and john and roxana are holding hands on the couch
40:43he just told me that he did not love me anymore and then she's gone and roxana's in yep remember in a
40:52circumstantial evidence case it's not ever going to be one big piece of evidence it's all the
40:57little pieces that suggest that roxana and limo john together were involved in the murder of david
41:04van der zee there's no other theory that makes sense and so knowing that your request of your
41:11prosecutor would be to do what i would request him to issue arrest warrants for john and roxana
41:18first degree intentional homicide yep as a detective as an investigator with all the circumstantial
41:24evidence in this case you couldn't ask for anything better i'm very hopeful that finally
41:30is someone is going to pay the price for murdering david van der zee if we don't do something now
41:36nothing's ever going to happen
41:37shortly after we left town the sheriff's office presented their whole case to
41:47the newly elected kenosha county da xavier solise and his ada sarah norkus
41:53john hello sir can you step up for a second
41:56you put your hands behind your back for me
41:59put your palms together how you doing man
42:02on may the 28th 2025 john viscasiel and roxana collins were charged and arrested for the first
42:15degree intentional homicide of david van der zee we called his brother tim to hear what he had to
42:20say about the good news i feel relieved uh you know for my mother's sake that was a long time
42:26coming i wish my mother was still around to see it she'd be resting in peace
42:32you
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