- 12 hours ago
Former Kentucky State Senator Damon Thayer appears on this week's TDN Writers' Room podcast to update viewers on the state of the decoupling fight in Florida. Thayer's appearance is sponsored by Gainesway. Elsewhere on the show, hosts Randy Moss and Bill Finley discuss the lack of transparency in horse racing in the wake of White Abarrio's scratch from the Breeders' Cup, weigh in on Griffin Johnson's selection as the Owner View New Owner of the Year, and have a few early Eclipse Award thoughts.
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00:00For the love of the worse, for generations to come.
00:23Welcome to another edition of the TDN Writer's Room Podcast.
00:31My name is Bill Finley.
00:32I'm a correspondent for the Thoroughbred Daily News and also the co-host of the Down the Stretch radio show on Sirius XM Radio.
00:40Bill and I both do this, obviously, from the comfort of our homes.
00:43I'm Randy Moss with NBC Sports.
00:46And it looks like it's just me and you this week again, Bill.
00:49So, Zoe Kamen went to England and she's a little jet lagged to see her parents.
00:54So, we gave her the day off, which we'll always miss Zoe and we'll welcome her back next week.
00:59So, Randy, we thought the Breeders' Cup was over and it is.
01:03But now a controversy lives on that has, I wouldn't say it overshadowed the Breeders' Cup,
01:09but it really became the topic of discussion following the end of the Breeders' Cup.
01:14And what I'm talking about is why the burial being scratched before the Breeders' Cup dirt mile.
01:19And by no means am I saying he should have been scratched.
01:23I don't know the answer to that.
01:24I'm not a veterinarian.
01:25But my problem with this is twofold.
01:29Number one, I have had problems with this industry for years about a lack of transparency.
01:34And this is the latest example.
01:36This is handled horribly.
01:38I mean, all of a sudden, the horse is off the track, taken back to his barn.
01:44Nobody's told why.
01:45The owners aren't told why.
01:46The trainer isn't told why.
01:47I don't believe you guys on NBC were told because I know, being the professionals you
01:52are, you would have told the public what was going on.
01:55The other thing, too, that I wonder about is if the horse was so lame, why did it take
02:00them all week?
02:01These horses are supposed to be analyzed and inspected, you know, 24 hours around the clock.
02:07How does something just pop up two minutes before the race?
02:10Did they miss something earlier?
02:12Apparently, they may have.
02:14And that's something that concerns me a little bit, too.
02:18Yeah.
02:19You know, it's a little like our conversations over the last couple of years about HISA.
02:25Right.
02:25I mean, in totality, HISA, in my opinion, at least, has done a lot of good for the sport.
02:34But there were going to be some growing pains.
02:37There are going to be situations that could be improved upon and that HISA could look at.
02:44And they have and tweet things to make things better.
02:48I think you can say the same thing about veterinary transparency, especially at major events like
02:56the Breeders' Cup.
02:57I think looking at it as a whole, it's been a very good thing.
03:03And yes, we've gotten a lot of scratches and a lot of trainers have complained about the
03:08scratches.
03:08And sometimes they're head scratching, like the Wai da Barrio thing.
03:13You know, you wonder why it took the horse being on the racetrack warming up before they
03:19saw it when they supposedly had eyes on the horse every morning when he went to the racetrack
03:23all week long.
03:24I mean, those are some things that need to be looked at and need to be studied.
03:30But, you know, look, I'm not going to name names.
03:33At the Breeders' Cup, okay, over the last three or four years, there have been horses
03:40scratched from the barns of extremely successful major horse trainers, both domestically and
03:51internationally, who at the time expressed concern, confused bewilderment that their horses
04:00were scratched, didn't understand why they were scratched.
04:03And on multiple occasions, those same horses wound up undergoing surgery, being off for
04:11extended periods of time.
04:13And so the system worked as it was supposed to work.
04:19I mean, there was also a major situation in a major horse race in the United States several
04:27years ago involving a increased veterinary scrutiny on a horse.
04:34And the veterinarians told the trainer of said horse that before they would allow the horse to be
04:39entered in the race, the horse needed to go in for a PET scan.
04:44The trainer refused.
04:45The trainer screamed at the veterinarians.
04:48The trainer threatened legal action against the veterinarians and ultimately relented to the PET scan,
04:56yelling and screaming all the way.
04:59The PET scan revealed a fracture that probably would have been life-threatening had the horse
05:06been allowed to run and the horse was ultimately retired.
05:08So, yeah, there are situations that are head-scratchers, but we've seen how important the so-called
05:16social license for thoroughbred racing is.
05:20We know, we've talked about it multiple times on this podcast, you know, the tightrope that
05:26thoroughbred racing walks, living in fear constantly of a major, major breakdown on national television
05:34in a race like the Kentucky Derby or the Breeders' Cup Classic.
05:37We know how important that is.
05:39And, you know, these veterinary checks, I think, in all, are a very good thing.
05:46Yeah, Randy, I agree with you 100%.
05:47And what I wrote in my TDN column with the lead was the Breeders' Cup has two goals,
05:52to have great, exciting racing.
05:54They've accomplished that this year.
05:56And to have safe racing.
05:58But again, you know, you look at this list, and it's not just White of Burial.
06:02I mean, look at the names of the horses that were scratched for one reason or another.
06:07And the trainers.
06:08Blackout Times, Scottish Lassie, Mystic Dan, Tamra, Sweet Azteca, and I'm probably missing a few.
06:15So, I mean, I think it's right for people to scratch their heads and say, wow, were that
06:20many horses really unsound?
06:22That gets back to the transparency.
06:24You know, what would be the problem of somebody at the CHRB or somebody with the AAEP just,
06:30you know, holding a little press briefing or something or talking more about what happened,
06:35why so many horses?
06:37This is, I don't know this for a fact, but this seems to me it would have been the most
06:42top name horses that were ever scratched at the Breeders' Cup.
06:46I mean, it changed the complexion of several major races, particularly the Breeders' Cup
06:51Philly Mayor Sprint with Tamra and Sweet Azteca coming out.
06:54But, you know, I think they can do a, I think they're doing obviously a good job keeping
06:59these races safe, but I think there's more to be done.
07:02Yeah.
07:02And I totally agree with you about the transparency aspect of it.
07:05There are so many parts of thoroughbred racing, and we've talked about this in the past, and
07:09that where there is a greater need for transparency, and this is one of them.
07:15Yeah, definitely.
07:16By the way, I want to remind you that as the holidays are coming up, we want you to send
07:20in your year-end questions to our team, to Randy, myself, Zoe, to all three of us, and
07:26ask us your questions, and we'll do our best to give you wise advice and wise answers.
07:32So if you have a question for our team, send it to Sue Finley, that's F-I-N-L-E-Y for
07:38Finley, at thetdn.com.
07:42If you have a question about why DeBario, the controversy about him, let us know.
07:46We'll try to answer it more.
07:48We'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
07:51The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Keeneland, and on your screen is a page
07:55of photos of just a few of the people at the Keeneland November sale, and even though
07:59Zoe Cabin is not with us today on the podcast, we got a peek of her on the photo page.
08:05We are taping this segment on Tuesday, the day the sale ends.
08:07It's a historic run in Lexington, and just to give you an idea of how well it's going,
08:12the end of book three on Saturday, the sales company had already surpassed the total gross
08:16of the entire 2024 sale, with three days still left to go.
08:20Average, median, and gross are up across the board, and they will conclude the sale with
08:24record totals.
08:25We'll be right back after this message from Keeneland.
08:27We do this so your granddaughter can work on a farm someday, so the stands will still
08:35be packed in 50 years.
08:38That's why we come to work every day, obsess over every single detail.
08:43Because the story of racing is written one moment at a time, and the future of our industry
08:52deserves nothing less.
08:55Keeneland.
08:56Every moment matters.
08:57The fastest source of the week brought to you by the fast sires at Windstar Farm, a list
09:03that now officially includes grade one winner Mullican, retired and joining the Windstar
09:08Stallion roster for 2026.
09:10Last summer, Mullican went on a four-race tear in Kentucky and New York with wins that
09:16included the grade two John Nayru stakes, where his seven furlongs and 120.54 was the fastest
09:21at that distance of any 2024 graded stakes, followed by a win in the grade one four-go
09:28stakes with a 105 buyer speed figure.
09:31Then he was third in the Breeders' Cup Sprint with the troubled trip, and Mullican followed
09:34up this year with a career-high 106 buyer.
09:39Windstar is inviting breeders to dream big with Mullican, the son of violence, stands his
09:43initial season for $10,000.
09:48It was a big weekend for big buyer speed figure performances.
09:51The fastest source of the week for the second time this year is the remarkable Louisiana-bred
09:55six-year-old gelding Touch Upon a Star, who rolled to a 10-length win against Open Company
10:02in the Delta Downs mile for a buyer of 108.
10:07Remember back in March, Touch Upon a Star won the New Orleans Classic over Sierra Leone
10:12with a 109 buyer.
10:15Touch Upon a Star owned by former NFL quarterback Jake DeLonge, trained by his brother Jeff.
10:19He's now won 18 out of 25 starts, $1.58 million.
10:23And of course, he'll be pointed for stakes at the upcoming fairgrounds meeting.
10:27A little earlier Saturday, Disco Time won Aqueduct's Dwyer stakes with a 107 buyer.
10:33A little more about Disco Time coming up shortly.
10:36Welcome now, the Gaines Way Guest of the Week.
10:43It's known as Damon Thayer.
10:44He's the Thoroughbred Racing Initiative Senior Advisor.
10:48You know him from his long work in the Kentucky Senate, where he's horse racing's best friend.
10:52And of course, also the work he's doing, which we're going to talk about today, to try to
10:57deal with the problems down in Florida.
10:59Welcome, Damon.
11:00Thanks for joining us.
11:01And basically, I thought it was a good idea to have you on because this issue has not
11:07gone away, but it's kind of quiet right now with the Florida legislature not in session.
11:11So bring us up to speed as much as you can.
11:14We know there's been a lawsuit filed by the Stronach Group, et cetera.
11:17But if we had talked to you, say, five months ago, bring us up to speed of what's happened
11:23over the last five months.
11:24Okay.
11:24Thanks, guys, for having me on.
11:26We appreciate the opportunity to come on and tell our story.
11:31As you know, we successfully killed the decoupling bill for the 2025 session.
11:40And by we, I mean the Thoroughbred Racing Initiative, which is a coalition of owners, trainers, breeders,
11:46sales companies from Florida that banded together sort of in an emergency situation back in February
11:52when the decoupling bill sort of came from nowhere to get dropped on us.
11:58My board is David O'Farrell, president, John Green, vice president, and then members Aaron
12:04Wellman, dual Hall of Fame trainer, Mark Cassie, and Dr. Barry Isoman.
12:10So we work very hard putting together a coalition to kill the bill.
12:14But there's another legislative session coming up in January.
12:20And while there hasn't been anything pre-filed yet, our sources in Tallahassee tell us that
12:27Gulfstream Park is active in Florida's capital trying to see if there is any support for decoupling.
12:36We think if we hadn't abandoned together and formed our coalition and fought the decoupling bill,
12:42it probably would have passed.
12:44But we got in there and scrapped and fought and clawed and testified in front of multiple
12:51legislative committees to tell the story of the $3.3 billion economic impact and the 33,000 jobs
13:00the horse industry has on the Sunshine State.
13:04We also told the story of how Florida is not, the horse industry is not just important to Florida,
13:10but really to the entire infrastructure and ecosystem of horse racing and breeding in North America.
13:18You all know that back in September, we sold $500 million worth of yearlings just down the road
13:25from me here at Keeneland.
13:27And then we just concluded another successful sale at Fasig Tipton in Keeneland.
13:3280% of those yearlings who were sold in Kentucky are now in Florida getting their pre-training
13:40and early lessons and preparations before they head off to their trainers throughout the entire
13:48continent.
13:49So that's why we've seen support come from all over the place.
13:54And we've been gearing up to fight the decoupling bill again.
13:59Last year, we were sort of caught on the back foot.
14:04This year, you know, we're going on offense.
14:07And we know one of the reasons why we were on the back foot is because the prior year,
14:14Gulfstream Park was in Tallahassee handing out over $300,000 worth of campaign contributions.
14:20And I'm not being pejorative.
14:22I'm just telling you the facts.
14:25These are public information and that's widely available.
14:32And we're doing the same thing.
14:33We didn't have a chance to be political last time because contributions can't be made once
14:38the legislature starts.
14:40But we had a fundraiser last month in Ocala for Senator Jason Broder, who effectively derailed
14:47a bill in his committee back in the spring, early spring in Tallahassee.
14:53And we're involved in supporting other legislators who we know are supportive of our cause.
15:00So we're getting more political.
15:03It's hard sometimes for the horse industry to get involved in politics.
15:07I learned, you know, nearly a quarter of a century in the Kentucky legislature.
15:13Horse people don't really like to get involved, but I encourage my board and the folks who
15:18support us that we've got to support legislators who support us and that we've got to be political.
15:24That's one of the reasons Gulfstream Park is so strong in Tallahassee is because they've
15:28been political.
15:29So I think the story right now on this day, on this Veterans Day 2025, is that we are on
15:37offense.
15:38We are prepared, better prepared to tell our story.
15:41Our coalition is engaged.
15:43And while we can't match Gulfstream Park dollar for dollar on the political side, we are going
15:48to be involved in the political side of things before the opportunity to make contributions
15:55shuts down when the legislature goes into session in January.
15:59All right, let me pan back a little bit, okay, to back up to 35,000 feet, all right, and
16:09look at this from a future vantage point, okay?
16:14Let's assume that you continue to be successful in beating back the decoupling efforts.
16:21Having talked to a lot of longtime veteran horsemen in Florida, they almost all seem to concede
16:28that the land is worth so much that Gulfstream sits on that it doesn't make financial sense
16:36to continue operating it as a racetrack.
16:39So what's the end game?
16:43If you avoid decoupling and Belinda Stronick, let's say, ultimately decides, okay, I'm just
16:50going to sell the racetrack for developmental purposes, what about racing in Florida?
16:57I mean, what happens then?
16:58What do you do?
16:59What's the end game?
17:00Great question.
17:00First of all, I want to note that there are three willing buyers for Gulfstream Park.
17:09One of them is public.
17:10Of course, Mike Rapoli has offered to buy Gulfstream Park and keep it as a racetrack in its current
17:15coupled state with the slot machine casino there on the first floor.
17:20And then there are at least two other buyers who haven't gone public, and I'm not really in
17:24a position to reveal that, but there are at least two other groups interested in buying
17:31Gulfstream Park with its current business model.
17:37But to answer your question, and then do a little bit of a look back on how we got here.
17:42To answer your question, TRY, Thoroughbred Racing Initiative, and one of our partners, the
17:47Kentucky HPP, I'm sorry, the Florida HPPA.
17:50Sorry, sometimes it's hard for me to get out of the Kentucky mode.
17:53The Florida HPPA and TRY are co-funding a feasibility study with the Cornerstone Group,
18:00which did the Maryland Racing feasibility study.
18:03And we're looking at a half a dozen different options for the future of racing in Florida.
18:10Now, as a lifelong fan, someone who participates in racing partnerships, used to work at racetracks,
18:17used to work at the Breeders' Cup, has been, I was a member of the Breeders' Cup notes team
18:22at all three Gulfstream Park Breeders' Cups.
18:26I think it's incredibly important to preserve racing in South Florida.
18:32You know, my big concern here in the United States is we continue to kill racetracks in
18:40major metropolitan areas.
18:41Most recently, of course, the Stronic Group did that in San Francisco at Golden Gate, and
18:48they did it at Portland Meadows in Portland, Oregon.
18:52I grew up in Michigan, so racing is gone in Detroit.
18:58And there are Boston.
19:00We've lost racing in Boston.
19:01We're going to lose racing in Washington, D.C. when Laurel closes and the Maryland Circuit
19:07settles in at Pimlico.
19:10And there are a lot of worries about Santa Anita.
19:16We want to try to protect racing in L.A.
19:21So, you know, I'm a big believer that if we're going to continue to make future fans to do things
19:27like wager on platforms, ADW platforms and simulcasting and watch racing on TV, we've got
19:35to have racing in our big market.
19:37So I'm a big fan of making sure from a fan and from a financial point of view that we
19:43figure out some way forward in South Florida, either at Gulfstream Park, at Hialeah, or perhaps
19:52somewhere else, north of the Miami-Dade Broward area, where perhaps a new racetrack could be
19:59built, where land is less expensive.
20:02I'm not ready to give up yet on racing at Gulfstream Park.
20:06I don't know how long-term viability is for racing 200 days a year there, but I do think
20:16there's a way forward in keeping racing in South Florida in general and at Gulfstream Park in
20:23particular.
20:24And, you know, maybe I can come back on your show when we have the results from this feasibility
20:31study, because it's nearly done.
20:34I can't really get into some of the details, but I can tell you that there are probably five
20:39or six possibilities, South Florida, Tampa, Ocala, all the above included in that mix.
20:47So we formed for two purposes, to kill the decoupling bill and to figure out a way forward
20:57for racing in Florida.
20:58So let me do a quick timeline, a jump back.
21:0120 years ago, the Florida legislature passed the bill that couples the slots parlor at Gulfstream
21:10Park with live racing.
21:11Then it was approved by a local referendum in Broward County, and then the horsemen signed
21:19an agreement with Gulfstream Park.
21:22Now, at that time, it was owned by Frank Stronick and not his daughter Belinda, but that was the
21:27agreement, and Gulfstream Park agreed at that time in its contract with horsemen that it
21:33would not do what it is doing today, and that is trying to decouple horse racing from its
21:39gaming operation, and that gaming operation is only there because of the legislature, the
21:46Broward County voters, and an agreement with horse racing, the Florida HPPA in this case
21:52to couple the two.
21:54I also would like to point out that under that law, Gulfstream Park can have up to 2,000 slot
22:03machines at Gulfstream Park, but they have only operated 500 of those now for 20 years.
22:10Can you imagine if a proper full-blown slots facility with 2,000 machines had been in operation
22:18for the last 20 years, how much money that would have brought into the general fund in
22:24Tallahassee, as well as the purse fund at Gulfstream Park?
22:28So, you know, when I tell you that there are three willing buyers for Gulfstream Park, they
22:34know that they could put in 2,000 machines, knock down that retail facility in front of Gulfstream
22:43Park, and put a proper casino in there that you could see from the road, and try to go
22:49head-to-head with Hard Rock, which is, what, eight miles away?
22:52Lots of possibilities, guys.
22:54Lots of possibilities.
22:55Are there current discussions, to the best of your knowledge, between these three potential
23:00buyers and first racing going on right now?
23:03I am not privy to those conversations late this year, but I do know that during the first
23:12half of this year, those conversations were taking place, and obviously, Mike Rapoli went
23:19very public with his desire to buy a Gulfstream Park, and I can't speak for Mike, but something
23:27tells me he's probably talked to Belinda Stronick about it.
23:30I don't know if any conversations have taken place recently.
23:34Damon, one of the big victories from the pro-horseman side last year occurred when, and Rapoli had
23:40a lot to do with this as well, Governor DeSantis came out and said he was not in favor of this
23:46bill.
23:46His language didn't absolutely 100% say that he would veto it, but he left it pretty clear
23:52that that was his intention.
23:54I don't see why that would change.
23:56And if he's standing in the way, what chance do they have to get the bill past DeSantis?
24:02And if they can't get it past him, it's not going to happen.
24:05That's exactly right.
24:06And one of the big victories that we achieved was getting Ron DeSantis to come to the auctioneer's
24:15podium at Ocala Breeder Sales Company.
24:18And OBS is one of our biggest supporters and an important part of our coalition.
24:22He came there and in front of a large crowd of owners and breeders and trainers and consignors
24:29and industry participants, all but said, pass this bill and I'll veto it.
24:35And the Republican supermajorities there probably didn't want to choose a fight with their very
24:42popular governor.
24:43And that was a really big win.
24:47You are absolutely correct that Mike Rapoli played a major role in that, but so did Tri.
24:55One of our board members, Dr. Barry Iserman, worked behind the scenes on that as well, but
25:01so did Mike.
25:03And I would never try to minimize Mike's role in this.
25:07And then if you were there on Kentucky Derby Day, who was in the winner's circle when Mind
25:12Frame won, Governor Ron DeSantis as a personal guest of Mike Rapoli.
25:17And that's really emblematic of the kind of relationships that are so important for our
25:23industry.
25:23And I've given a couple speeches this year and I'm working in some other states to try
25:28to help horse racing there.
25:30These relationships that we can have in our states with members of the legislature, with
25:36governors, are critically important.
25:38And not many people know this, but in 2024 and going back into 2023, I believe the largest
25:45donor to the Ron DeSantis for governor campaign was Mike Rapoli.
25:50And, you know, those things matter.
25:52And, you know, I keep telling people, I spoke at the HPPA convention, I spoke to the Arkansas
25:57breeders.
25:58I'm going to be on a panel in Arizona at the University of Arizona program next month.
26:03People have to have relationships with their legislators and their governors and their
26:08agriculture commissioners and their attorneys general.
26:11All these things are really important.
26:13Everybody in every racing state except Nebraska has one representative and one senator.
26:18In Nebraska, they have a unicameral legislature that's just made up of senators.
26:23So you only have to build, you only have one representative in Lincoln.
26:27But in the 49 other states, there's either a House of Representatives or a House of Delegates
26:31and a Senate.
26:33And people need to reach out to their legislators and let them know about how important their
26:37businesses are, not only to the entire state, but the districts that these people represent.
26:43I would like to make one quick comment and segue.
26:46The TDN did reach out to the Strunek group and asked them if they wanted equal time with
26:51Damon, and they declined.
26:53So we did try to get them on.
26:54And that's understandable.
26:55With the lawsuit going on, I'm sure they were advised by their attorneys to keep quiet on
27:01this.
27:01But just so you don't think we're purposely beating up on anybody, we did give them the
27:05opportunity to speak.
27:06Randy?
27:07Yeah.
27:07Just one more question for me.
27:09You mentioned the feasibility study that'll be forthcoming with maybe a half dozen different
27:13options for the future of racing in Florida.
27:16And you mentioned, you know, Ocala, Hialeah, some other options.
27:22How much of a challenge is it that the Seminole tribes right now, you know, other than, let's
27:28say, what's going on at Gulfstream Park with the casino there, pretty much have a stranglehold
27:32on gaming, non-parimutual gaming in the state of Florida?
27:38It's a huge challenge, Randy.
27:40You're absolutely right.
27:42For example, sports betting is legal in Florida, but only on one provider, the Hard Rock sports
27:50app.
27:51Hard Rock is owned by the Seminoles.
27:53You know, the tribe pretty much has a stranglehold on all other casino gaming except for what is
28:02authorized at Gulfstream Park, which is slots, and at Tampa, which is a card room.
28:08And, you know, these other options are going to require partnerships to come up with purse
28:15supplements.
28:16And we're going to need help from Tallahassee in order to make that happen.
28:22It's interesting that the Seminole tribe is rolling out a similar product to what we have
28:29here in Kentucky called historical horse racing, except they're making that product available
28:34on an auto racing platform.
28:36But, boy, that sure does open things up for other options.
28:41You know, we can't just, for example, open up a racetrack in Ocala.
28:46And there are several places in Ocala where we could have a viable racing meet logistically.
28:53There are training centers.
28:54There's OBS.
28:55But where's the purse money going to come from?
28:58I don't think the Seminoles are going to let us have a slots parlor in Ocala.
29:05And I think there's a company whose brand ambassador is a mouse not far away in Orlando,
29:11who probably is not going to like having any form of expanded casino gambling that close to
29:18their family-oriented attraction over there at Disney World.
29:22And also, Universal is a pretty big player there, too.
29:26So these are part of the challenges.
29:29It's a jigsaw puzzle that we're going to have to put together.
29:32And we told legislators earlier this year, look, kill this bill.
29:39We will come back with solutions to the future of Florida racing.
29:44And this feasibility study is part of it.
29:47But we're going to need purse supplements, some form of expanded gambling,
29:53or some help from the general fund, which happens in other states, happens in Maryland,
30:01happens in Texas.
30:02In order to be able to run a meet that doesn't either have a card room like they have in Tampa
30:08or slots like they have in Gulfstream, we're going to need some form of help there and a
30:15partnership to make it work.
30:18Damon, this is something I want to comment on.
30:20It's coming more from me.
30:21I don't even know if it's a question, but you can feel free to weigh in on this.
30:24One thing that I've never quite understand about what First Racing's plans are,
30:29I don't think a casino at Gulfstream Park is going to be successful.
30:32You mentioned the Hard Rock Cafe is one of the most successful casinos in the world,
30:38just up the road.
30:39There are more casinos in Broward and Dade County than there are Starbucks.
30:43And maybe that's the reason they never did put in the 2000 machines.
30:48I've gone in that casino at Gulfstream.
30:50There's nobody in there.
30:52They can build the biggest, fanciest casino in the world.
30:56I can't see them again with the Seminole Tribe.
30:59I can't see them competing with the Hard Rock.
31:02I think that's a valid point.
31:04And I think, you know, maybe that's why they only have 500 machines.
31:08But you've been to Gulfstream Park.
31:10You've walked through that retail establishment in front of it.
31:17I mean, I'm not a casino operator.
31:19I'm a horse racing guy.
31:20But if I owned the place, I would level that and build all the Bells and Wilson Slots Casino
31:27with big flashy signs like you see in Vegas.
31:30I mean, nobody who's out on Federal Highway can tell that there's even a casino there at Gulfstream Park.
31:38At least shout it from the rafters and make an effort.
31:42You're right.
31:43I mean, the Seminoles are very good at running a casino.
31:47Hard Rock is incredibly successful.
31:50But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
31:54I mean, that Slots Parlor is buried on the first floor of Gulfstream Park.
31:59Why not use the land that you've got there to your advantage?
32:03And I've talked to some casino operators who say that that's not a half bad idea to, you know,
32:09if you make it so you can see it, at least from the roads that intersect there at Gulfstream Park,
32:15that's a lot of traffic, a lot of population, a lot of people.
32:20And I do know this.
32:22The current Slots operation generates about $6 million a year for purses.
32:27That's a not insignificant number.
32:29You know, why not give it a try and tell the horsemen you can generate more money for purses
32:35and tell Tallahassee that you're going to generate more money for the general fund?
32:40Because let me let me tell you one thing.
32:42Legislators, whether they're Republicans or Democrats,
32:44they love to have money not generated by income taxes or property taxes
32:50or other forms of taxes that people pay during their daily lives.
32:53They love to have money generated by things like gambling so they can spend it on other stuff.
32:58Trust me on that.
33:00It doesn't matter the party.
33:03Very good.
33:04Oh, Damon, thanks so much for enlightening us on the situation.
33:06And we're going to stay on top of it, of course.
33:09Good luck for horse racing, obviously.
33:11You know, if you like the game, you certainly want Gulfstream Park to survive in its current structure.
33:18But thanks so much for being our Gainsaway Guest of the Week.
33:20And we'll catch up with you again soon.
33:22Always great to be on.
33:24Thanks for giving me an opportunity to tell the story and update your fans.
33:28Thanks, Damon.
33:29Take care.
33:30Damon Thayer, our guest of the week, brought to you by Gainsaway, home of the stallion Muth,
33:35whose first in-fold mares were well-received at Caneland November last week.
33:40For example, the mare Howell, as in Howell at the Moon, winner of the Safely Kept Stakes,
33:46sold in-fold to Muth for $525,000.
33:50And Muth also had an in-fold mare, Precious Dixie, who sold for $450,000 in Book 1.
33:59Just like his sire, Muth won Grade 1 stakes at both 2 and 3.
34:03In fact, he's the only son of good magic to do that.
34:06The Grade 1s were the American Pharaoh and the Arkansas Derby.
34:09Muth was a $2 million sales topper at OBS.
34:12He made $1.5 million on the track.
34:15And now Muth stands for a fee of $30,000 at Gainsaway.
34:20Power, passion, performance.
34:24Say hello to Muth.
34:29It's a one-horse race.
34:31Very professional and very fast.
34:35Muth, rolling home by four in fine style.
34:38Muth, the son of good magic, coming down the stretch at Hot Springs to win it.
34:54We have another controversy in horse racing.
34:57Mr. Johnson was given the award as the new owner of the year by OwnerView.
35:03And surprisingly to me, several people, including Mike Rapoli, reacted and said,
35:09this guy didn't deserve it.
35:11Here's something from a blogger by the name of Tom Stetton.
35:15He said, latest new owner of the year stunt from the Jockey Club's marketing machine,
35:19and I'm being kind, does more than just smell off.
35:23It's flat out insulting to the people who actually keep the sport alive,
35:27the real owners and the real bettors.
35:29To me, the people that are criticizing this stuff are living in the past.
35:34This is not, this, I don't know, this makes me so upset.
35:37I don't even know where to begin.
35:39This young man did more for horse racing than I think any owner has done,
35:44maybe outside Mike Rapoli, in the last 10 years.
35:48He went, this is not 1997.
35:52He went on social media.
35:54He is a good-looking young man.
35:56He reached out to people.
35:58He said in his reply to Rapoli, he says, I made Sandman the most important horse in the world.
36:05And you know what?
36:06If you go by clicks on his, I guess he's on Instagram and Twitter and whatnot,
36:11he probably can back that up.
36:13Not only that, he invested $60,000 of his own money and travel expenses to get to these races,
36:20to go, he went the extra mile for thoroughbred racing.
36:22He invested, and now he's invested his own money in four new horses that, of course,
36:27he's going to keep blogging about and keep talking about as an influencer.
36:31This is where society is right now.
36:34This is what is important.
36:35This is how you promote the game.
36:37He was not only not deserving, he was a no-brainer, very deserving candidate for the new owner of the year.
36:45And I compliment the owner of you for thinking outside the box a little bit and not just naming XYZ stables
36:54because they're new owners and they want a grade-three race somewhere.
36:57Randy?
36:58Absolutely.
36:59Absolutely.
37:00100%.
37:00I couldn't agree more.
37:01I don't care if Griffin Johnson was gifted ownership in Sandman.
37:06I don't care if he subsequently spent his own money to be involved with some horses, which reportedly he has.
37:12It makes no difference to me.
37:14The ultimate bottom line here is the attention that he focused on the sport of thoroughbred racing
37:23that wouldn't have been there if it weren't for his prowess in social media.
37:28I mean, at the Kentucky Derby, we were scratching our heads.
37:32Where did all this money bet on Sandman come from?
37:35I mean, his odds are way lower than they figured to be on paper, than they should have been.
37:40And then all of a sudden, the light bulb went off.
37:41It was like, it's Griffin Johnson.
37:43He has made Sandman the most well-known horse running in the Kentucky Derby.
37:49Look, it's where the world is right now, 100%.
37:53It was just on the Today Show.
37:55I was watching, we're taping this on Tuesday.
37:57I was watching Monday's Today Show.
37:58And they had a whole big feature on the social media department of the Los Angeles Chargers.
38:06They went behind the scenes.
38:08There were like eight of them, full-time social media that have generated millions and millions
38:14of views, mostly young people who have become huge Chargers fans as a result.
38:20Other NFL teams do it, maybe not with the success of the Los Angeles Chargers.
38:26Some racetracks are decent at social media and trying to engage some people in social media,
38:34but not nearly to the extent that they should be.
38:38And the success that Griffin Johnson has had in focusing eyeballs on the sport is a perfect
38:43example of why that's so important.
38:45They should give him in a freaking Eclipse Award in addition to the new owner of the year.
38:51Yeah.
38:52And Randy, again, it's nice to see that we're totally on the same page with this.
38:56One other point is, you know, there are some racetracks that do a pretty good job on social
39:00media.
39:01There's some that don't.
39:02But I think their audience is you and me.
39:05The key to this is that Griffin Johnson reached out to 20-somethings who traditionally have not
39:12paid much attention to racing, have gone off into sports betting and whatnot, and he got them to pay
39:18attention.
39:19So this is one of the silliest damn arguments that we've had in horse racing this year.
39:24And Griffin Johnson, the whole industry owes you thanks for everything that you have done.
39:30And I think Mike Rapoli backtracked a little bit.
39:33Did he?
39:33Oh, good.
39:34Jason Wirth had a long, impassioned defense of Griffin Johnson that he posted on Twitter.
39:41And Mike Rapoli responded to that affirmatively and said that he agreed with everything that
39:50the Jason Wirth had said.
39:51So that's good to know.
39:55Yeah.
39:55Thank you, Jason Wirth.
39:56And good to know that Mike is willing to backtrack if he comes out to the conclusion that maybe
40:01he misspoke or wasn't quite right.
40:04Hey, so there was an exciting horse at Aqueduct on Sunday because the horse sold for $5 million
40:10at the 2024 Keeneland sales.
40:13It's a horse by the name of Cording by Curlin out of Cavorting makes that horse a full sister
40:19to Clary Air.
40:20You remember her, a real good horse from a few years back.
40:23She is owned by Whisper Hill Farm, Stone Street Stables, and Wind Dancer Farm.
40:27Trained by Todd Pletcher.
40:29She debuted on September 24th.
40:31Ran okay in a one-mile race at Aqueduct.
40:34Fourth beat in two and a quarter lengths.
40:36She comes back on her second start again on Sunday.
40:38She wins by two and a half at one to nine.
40:42I don't know what her buyer number is.
40:43I'm sure Randy can tell this.
40:45I don't want to throw cold water on people's enthusiasm, but I was not very impressed by
40:50this horse.
40:51First of all, it was a four-horse field, and she was one to nine.
40:55I mean, she was put in a position where she can't lose.
40:57She's extremely well-bred.
40:59Maybe she's going to improve, and we'll see the best of her next year.
41:02But for now, I think Cording is a good horse, but I'm not going to get down on her on the
41:08Kentucky Oaks winter book anytime soon.
41:11It would have been more exciting if Cording had rolled up a 98-buyer speed figure or something
41:16instead of the 75 that she got coming off a 77-buyer in her debut.
41:22But I'm not going to completely dismiss her at this point for a couple of reasons.
41:26First of all, in that four-horse field, the pace of that race was extremely slow.
41:32So compared to a two-year-old New York-bred maiden race a little bit later on the card,
41:37it went almost two full seconds faster for a half mile than three-quarters of a mile.
41:41Now, that probably helped Cording because she was on the front end, but it tends to suppress
41:46the final time and therefore suppress the buyer's speed figure.
41:51So I can give her a little bit of extra credit for that.
41:53And also, being bi-curnal and out of cavorting, being a full sister to Clariere, the shortest
42:01distance Clariere ever ran was a mile and a sixteenth.
42:05This Cording figures to get better and better at distances other than a one-turn mile.
42:13And so, you know, the jury's still out on Cording, but she's definitely going to have to show a lot
42:17of improvement.
42:17And actually, the most exciting horse to run at Aquac over the weekend was Disco Time,
42:23who won the ungraded Dwyer stakes at one-turn mile on Saturday.
42:26As I mentioned with the buyer of 107, trainer Brad Cox said that Disco Time was owned by Judmont,
42:32based in Saudi Arabia.
42:34The ownership will be appointed for the Saudi Cup now.
42:38And it looks like we've got a long way to go.
42:40The Saudi Cup's obviously in mid-February.
42:42But if all goes well, Bill, we could be looking at Forever Young, who won it last year, Romantic
42:48Warrior, who's now back in training and scheduled to run a couple times in Hong Kong before hopefully
42:54heading back to Saudi Arabia to be rematched again against Forever Young, Disco Time, and
42:59maybe Nysos, because Bob Baffert has pointed out that a one-turn mile and an eighth would
43:04be perfect for Nysos.
43:06A lot has to happen between now and then, but it's exciting to look forward to.
43:09Certainly, it looks like it's going to be, as usual, a very good race.
43:14All right, we'll be right back after these messages.
43:17And the TDN Riders Room is sponsored by our friends at the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association,
43:22the PHBA.
43:23You don't often hear us talking on the podcast about four-mile races.
43:28Well, on Sunday, November the 2nd, the 90th running of the Pennsylvania Hunt Cup took place
43:35over 18 fences through the rolling Chester County countryside.
43:39The Timber Steeplechase Race is intended to be a substantial test for horse and rider, and
43:45it was the winner, nine-year-old Master Seville, the only Pennsylvania bred in the field.
43:53Congratulations to his owner-breeder, South Branch Equine, and to the horse, because now,
43:59according to his trainer, Mark Beecher, Master Seville will get a little time off and then
44:03go fox hunting over the winter.
44:06To learn more about these versatile Pennsylvania breads, go to pabread.com or call Brian Sanfratello
44:12at 610-444-1050.
44:15The Pennsylvania Breeding Program is the best program in the country.
44:20The stallion awards, the owner bonuses, also the restrictive races and the stakes races for
44:26Pennsylvania breads.
44:27This year, eight breeders are on track to earn over $200,000 in breeders' awards, and two
44:34could hit the million-dollar mark.
44:37We have the best program in the country.
44:40Take advantage of the fantastic program that we have.
44:43Learn more at pabread.com.
44:46With some of the fullest fields in the country and quality racing year-round, there's never
44:52been a better time to reap the rewards of breeding and racing in Kentucky.
44:56Purse money in Kentucky is at an all-time high, as it's average purse per race, outpacing
45:03California, Florida, and New York.
45:07Kentucky breads.
45:08Breed them.
45:09Raise them.
45:10Race them.
45:11We all win.
45:13The TDN Riders Room brought to you by Kentucky Breads.
45:20The wins by Kentucky Breads at this year's Breeders' Cup featured Ted Noffey in the $2 million Breeders'
45:26Cup Juvenile and Super Corridora in the $2 million Juvenile Phillies.
45:30That was on Future Stars Friday, then Saturday.
45:32Scylla in the $2 million Distaff on Championship Saturday Day.
45:37This year's wins give Kentucky Breads 262 Breeders' Cup triumphs through the history of
45:45the championship event, more than any other state or country.
45:48Also, Forever Young, winner of the Breeders' Cup Classic, is out of the Kentucky Bread
45:53Mayor, Forever Darling.
45:55By congrats.
45:56He's a cousin, actually, to Sierra Leone.
45:58Forever Darling was a graded winner during her racing career.
46:01She won the 2016 Santa Inez at Santa Anita.
46:05Kentucky Breads, breed them.
46:06Raise them.
46:07Race them.
46:08We all win.
46:10Well, we're starting to find out which of the 2025 stars are coming back and which ones
46:15are going off to the breeding shed.
46:17Hasn't been many surprises.
46:18I was a little surprised that journalism is coming back, and I think that's good news for
46:23the sport.
46:24He was a horse that was so game, and so he just had that misfortune of being born in the
46:30same year of sovereignty.
46:31He is going to race next year, but that brings up sovereignty.
46:34What's going on here?
46:35It's been a while since the Breeders' Cup is over.
46:38They have not made any announcements either way about whether or not he's going to run
46:43next year or if he's going to be retired and stand at stud.
46:46I'm sure something will come shortly.
46:48My guess is that because he's owned by Godolphin and Sheikh Mohammed would dearly like to win
46:54the Dubai World Cup with a horse he owns, that's where he'll be pointed to.
46:59I have no inside information on that.
47:01It's just a guess.
47:02But I sure hope sovereignty comes back.
47:04That would really make things a lot more exciting for thoroughbred racing in 2026.
47:10Maybe this time he can run in the Breeders' Cup Classic and won't get sick beforehand.
47:14It'll be interesting to see what happens.
47:16If you think back to when Mott and Godolphin obviously made the decision to skip the Preakness
47:22with sovereignty, part of the rationale that they used was that they wanted sovereignty
47:28to be at his best at the end of the year for the Breeders' Cup Classic and then the next
47:34March for the Dubai World Cup since he's owned by Sheikh Mohammed, obviously.
47:38So since he missed the Breeders' Cup Classic due to his fever, I wonder if that's going to
47:45affect the decision of Godolphin one way or the other.
47:48We haven't heard yet, but it would be wonderful if we can get sovereignty and journalism back
47:54in training in 2026.
47:55So usually the Clips Awards discussions are somewhat of a bore.
47:59There's no point debating who's going to be the two-year-old male dirt champion.
48:04We all know that's going to be Ned Toffee, et cetera.
48:08But I asked our team, is there any ones that you're still up in the air?
48:12I mean, the jockey race between Flavion Pratt and Irod Ortiz is fascinating.
48:17And in Money One, they're almost at dead heat.
48:20So you're really going to have to do a deep dive into their statistics.
48:23I actually think Pratt winning the seven races at Aqueduct the other day, sending that record,
48:28might be something that the voters should consider because that was quite in the whole history
48:32of the New York Racing Association, most winners for anybody on a card.
48:36But I came up with, I don't know what to do.
48:40Well, I do because I've made up my mind.
48:41I've got one out-of-the-box selection.
48:44And it's in the older male division, dirt division.
48:48I will not vote for Forever Young because he doesn't abide by the Finley rule, which is
48:52I will not vote for a horse that ran only one time in the U.S.
48:57I will not vote for Sierra Leone because he was one for five on the year.
49:01One grade one win was in the Whitney, a big race, but still one for five.
49:05I agree.
49:05I will not vote for fierceness because he was only two for five on the year and only won
49:09one grade one race, which is the Pacific Classic.
49:11So where am I going with this?
49:13How about mind frame, three for five on the year, and one of the losses really shouldn't
49:18count.
49:19That's when he got nailed in the Jockey Club Gold Cup and had all that go wrong.
49:23I realize he didn't run particularly well in the Breeders' Cup, but his year was better
49:29than these other horses that generally have gotten more acclaimed than he has.
49:35Two grade one wins, one grade two.
49:38And like I said, if not for the Accent and the Jockey Club Gold Cup, he might have won
49:42three grade one races.
49:44So I'm probably not going to be on the winner there.
49:46Oh, and one other thing, you know, we talk about the Breeders' Cup Classic being the race
49:50of the year, probably was.
49:52But if you ask me, the second best race run all year was the Churchill Down Stakes.
49:58And look at the horses he beat in there, Banishing, Nysos, and Bookum Dano.
50:03That was one hell of a field in there, and he won it.
50:07So, Randy, am I crazy?
50:09It was.
50:09A little.
50:11Okay.
50:13I understand your logic.
50:15I understand your reasoning, right?
50:16I get it.
50:17I get it.
50:18And, you know, Churchill Downs Handicap was a fantastic race, and Mindframe beat Sierra
50:23Leone at Churchill Downs as well, you know?
50:26So, and I agree with you about Forever Young.
50:29I agree with you about Sierra Leone.
50:30To me, you can't just look at, like, number of graded wins, number of grade one wins at
50:39the end of the year.
50:40I think how the horses stacked up against each other can often be and should often be the
50:47ultimate tiebreaker.
50:49And Mindframe got drilled in the Breeders' Cup Classic by both Sierra Leone and Fierceness.
50:55So, to me, my way of thinking, that disqualifies Mindframe from the Eclipse Award.
51:02It's not like he went into the Breeders' Cup Classic as a solid favorite for older male.
51:09Then you might have been able to, okay, maybe.
51:11But I'd go for Fierceness.
51:13That would be my vote, I think, for older male.
51:15But, you know, not with, I wouldn't stand on a soapbox and yell and scream that Fierceness
51:20should be the champion.
51:22So, the other division, the other division, I want to get your thoughts about this first.
51:28Two-year-old fillies.
51:30Who would you vote for for champion two-year-old filly?
51:33Super Corridor.
51:35Okay.
51:35Two starts, a maiden win, and a Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies win over a speed-favoring
51:41racetrack with an uncontested early lead.
51:44All right.
51:45What about Cypher?
51:46Well, okay, so here's the problem with Cypher, and this may not be fair.
51:51And, again, there are no rules for the Breeders' Cup.
51:55I think there should be some rules.
51:57Excuse me, for the Eclipse Awards.
51:58I think there should be some rules.
52:00But I don't see this division as a division for grasshorses.
52:06I think you're really thinking outside.
52:08And Cypher, I love.
52:09I ran a, won a Breeders' Cup race, won two stakes, including the Algonquin at Woodbine,
52:14and Super Corridor only won the one stake.
52:17But I just don't see this way.
52:19And it's just me.
52:20And it's not written down anywhere that it has to be a dirt horse.
52:23But traditionally, this division, as well as the two-year-old male, has always gone to
52:29a dirt horse.
52:30I don't believe there's ever been a turf horse that has won in either of these divisions.
52:34So is that right or is that wrong?
52:36You know, well, you seem to think that people should give it, be a little bit more open-minded
52:41to it.
52:42So I've had a great year, and I understand your logic.
52:44Yeah, look, I mean, in the older division, you've got the older dirt male, you've got
52:48turf male, you've got older dirt female, you've got turf female.
52:52But in the sprinter division and in the two-year-old divisions, you don't have an alternate eclipse
52:58award for grass or turf.
53:01And I think that at least opens it up to, you know, to a little bit of wiggle room in unusual
53:09situations.
53:11And this might be an unusual situation this year because Super Corridora, she's undefeated.
53:18She's two for two.
53:21But, you know, like I said, what's that?
53:23She's not two for two.
53:24Remember, she lost those two in the maiden race beforehand.
53:27She might have been.
53:28I think she lost a couple of times sprinting.
53:30Yeah, yeah, yeah.
53:31But in two-turn races, she's two for two.
53:35Right.
53:37Cypher beats the boys.
53:40She runs against the boys in the Algonquin Stakes at Woodbine and just trounces them in
53:46one of the most visually impressive races that a two-year-old filly, probably the most visually
53:51impressive, a two-year-old filly ran all year.
53:53And then she comes back in the Breeders' Cup against the boys again and, again, demolishes
54:01a field very impressively, including, you know, some of the best two-year-old sprinters
54:07that Coolmore brought over from England.
54:09So I'm willing in this circumstance to give extra credit to Cypher in the Eclipse Awards,
54:19given that Super Corridor is the only Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies winner in history to
54:23go from just a maiden win straight into the Breeders' Cup to win that race.
54:29Super Corridor owned by West Point.
54:31Terry Finley just got on the phone and said he's no longer sponsoring this show.
54:36The work of the week is brought to you by First TV.
54:39Tenacious leader, second in the grade three Bryan Station Stakes at Keeneland in his last
54:43start to troubleshooting, is headed south for the winter to prepare for his four-year-old
54:47campaign.
54:47Here he is on the outside working in company with stablemate Iris Gent.
54:52Tenacious leader broke his maiden at Saratoga and won allowance at Keeneland before his
54:56runner-up finish in the Bryan Station.
55:00Be a smarter better with First TV, the best horses.
55:06With thousands of exclusive morning workouts.
55:14All at your fingertips and delivered right into your inbox.
55:17Everything you need to be informed.
55:21Be smart.
55:23Bet smart.
55:24With First TV.
55:29All the thrills.
55:33Fraction of the bills.
55:35The TD and Riders Room brought to you by West Point Thoroughbreds.
55:50West Point Thoroughbreds, the gold standard in racing partnerships.
55:55Visit westpointtv.com.
55:59The TD and Riders Room brought to you by West Point Thoroughbreds.
56:03You know, or we think you know, about the Breeders' Cup Juvenile Phillies triumph with Super Corridora.
56:09Meanwhile, the West Point two-year-olds have continued to roll at Churchill Downs in a maiden race.
56:14Paige Turner.
56:15P-A-I-G-E.
56:17Paige Turner poured it on for a five and a quarter length victory for trainer Cherie DeVoe.
56:22That was her second lifetime start.
56:24And then Into the Beast followed suit to Churchill for trainer Dale Romans.
56:28For more information on becoming a West Point partner, check out www.westpointtv.com.
56:36All right.
56:37Well, we miss Zoe Cabin.
56:38She'll be back next week.
56:39But thank you for tuning in.
56:40And that's a wrap on this week's TDN Riders Room podcast.
56:44I want to thank our Gainesway Guest of the Week, Damon Thayer.
56:47I want to thank my partner, Randy Moss, and also the people that work so hard behind the scenes to put this show together.
56:53Sue Finley, Katie Petruniak, Anthony LaRocca, and Alia LaRocca.
56:56And remember, send in those questions as we really can put in a good show.
57:00And once again, if you have any questions for our year-end podcast, send them to suefinleyatthetdn.com.
57:06For instance, what was Randy Moss smoking when he came up with Cypher as the two-year-old Philly champion?
57:12That would be a great question to ask.
57:13And why does Bill Finley not wear his Bookum Dano shirt on the podcast ever?
57:18Well, that's, that's, that's, I got a new one coming, by the way.
57:22Oh, good.
57:22But, yeah, yeah, I got official, official one coming from the owners of Bookum Dano.
57:27Are you voting for Bookum Dano for Champion Sprinter or Ben Tornado?
57:31Bookum Dano.
57:32Oh, come on.
57:33What kind of question is that?
57:34Okay.
57:34All right.
57:35All right.
57:36Anyways, thanks for listening and we'll talk to you next week.
57:39Bye.
57:39Bye.
57:39Bye.
57:40Bye.
57:41Bye.
57:41Bye.
57:41Bye.
57:41Bye.
57:41Bye.
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