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https://www.pupia.tv - Roma - Sudan – Informal hearing - Sudan Liberation Movement
Alle ore 8.30, la Commissione Esteri ha svolto l'audizione di una delegazione del Sudan Liberation Movement. (05.11.25)
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Alle ore 8.30, la Commissione Esteri ha svolto l'audizione di una delegazione del Sudan Liberation Movement. (05.11.25)
#pupia
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NovitàTrascrizione
00:00Buongiorno.
00:08Buongiorno.
00:09I would like to inform you that the disclosure of this session
00:14will be ensured by broadcasting on the web TV of the Chamber of Deputies.
00:20I would also like to remind you that our colleagues are able to participate remotely
00:24as allowed by the Committee on the Rules of Procedure.
00:27On the agenda is an informal hearing with the delegation
00:31from the Sudan Liberation Movement.
00:33On behalf of the members of this Committee,
00:35I would like to welcome and thank our guests for taking part in our session.
00:39Mr. Abdelwahid Al-Nur.
00:42Good morning.
00:43Mr. Ibrahim Adam.
00:44Good morning.
00:45And Mr. Mohamed Abdelgadzik.
00:48Good morning.
00:50The Sudanese delegation is accompanied by Mr. Impagliazzo
00:54and Ms. Francesca Caruso representing the community of San Egidio.
00:59Today's hearing aims to examine the latest political and social developments in Sudan.
01:05In this regard, I would like to recall that at the UN Security Council meeting on the 30th of October,
01:11the UN Under Secretary General for Humanitarian Affairs, Tom Fletcher,
01:14denounced the atrocities perpetrated by the Rapid Support Forces in El Fasher,
01:19which is the capital of the Darfur region.
01:22Since the RSF militias took control of the city,
01:28there have been increasing reports of mass killings, door-to-door searches,
01:33sexual violence and attacks on humanitarian workers.
01:36Over 90% of children in that area have no access to education.
01:44And over 24 million people in the whole country, 40% of the population,
01:51do not have enough food.
01:53Yesterday, we had a meeting here at the Chamber of Deputies to denounce the situation in Sudan
02:06and the situation in El Fasher specifically.
02:09And we asked for a humanitarian truce, which is being negotiated in Egypt.
02:18But for the time being, there is not a lot of hope that it can be accepted by both parties.
02:26Following discussions among Security Council members, a statement was adopted
02:31expressing deep concern about the escalation of violence.
02:35And all parties to the conflict have been urged to protect civilians
02:39and to comply with their obligations under international law,
02:42including international humanitarian law,
02:44as well as to meet their commitments under the Jeddah Declaration of May 2023,
02:48which sought to establish principles for a resolution of the conflict
02:52and to ensure the protection of civilians and humanitarian access.
02:56At the same time, the Security Council urges all UN member states
02:59to refrain from external interference intended to fuel instability
03:04and to support efforts towards lasting peace,
03:07reaffirming their commitment to sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Sudan.
03:11We will now give the floor to Mr. Abdelwahil Al-Nour.
03:17He plays a key role in Sudanese politics and has done so for a long time.
03:26And he can surely help us better understand the situation in the country.
03:32And I would also like to thank the community of Sant'Egidio for their work of the last few years.
03:37And I'm sure we will be able from this hearing to understand what are the options,
03:45the possible solutions for the conflict in this country, which has been going on for nearly 50 years.
03:52So I will now give the floor to Mr. Al-Nour to deliver his speech,
03:58unless Mr. Impagliazzo wishes to take the floor first.
04:02Thank you so much for this introduction and thank you for this opportunity.
04:11The delegation has been invited to Rome by the community of Sant'Egidio,
04:15which is also working together with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in order to deliver humanitarian aid
04:23and to support political dialogue.
04:30And we hope that this will enable us to improve the very fragmented social situation in Sudan at the moment.
04:42We have invited the SLM in Rome to know more about their opinion, their point of view,
04:53when it comes to the resolution of this conflict.
05:00The community of Sant'Egidio has been operating in Sudan for a number of years.
05:04Thank you.
05:05I will now leave the floor to Mr. Al-Nour.
05:09Thank you, Member of Parliament of Italy.
05:13Thank you, Dr. Paolo Sant'Egidio.
05:18By the way, Sant'Egidio, we have a very, very long relations since 2004 until today.
05:26We resume this relation for searching for a lasting peace in Sudan.
05:33And I really appreciate them that they continue consistently care about Sudan,
05:40and they want to bring peace in Sudan because of their values as a community.
05:46Thank you.
05:47I would like to thank all of you here, and I would like also to appreciate that Italian are concerned about Sudan.
05:57And we in Sudan believe that Italians and Italian government and people, they are a friend of Sudan.
06:06And we are here because we want to also emphasize that this relation will continue.
06:14And our belief is that this will be the last war in Sudan.
06:19And we are here also to see how all of us work together to see lasting peace in our country like any other country, hopefully like Italia.
06:31We are here to tell you that when the war breaks through in Sudan nearly three years ago, our position was from day one was clear that we are neutral.
06:48And if you ask why we are neutral, Islam wants to create a secular, liberal, federal, democratic Sudan based on equal citizenship right and the religion should be separate from the state.
07:03And this vision could not be done with SAF because SAF are Islamists and you know what Islam is.
07:11And could not be done with rapid support force and you know what is rapid support force.
07:18So we remain in this position.
07:21A good thing is that this position gives us, as SLM, a leverage of when we are not neutral, it means that our area, the area which you control of us, for the moment it has nine million Sudanese.
07:42Three million are indigenous and six million are IDPs across the country, from Khartoum, from Al Jazeera, from White Nile, from Kurdifan and of course from Sudan, from Darfur.
07:59Sorry.
08:02This allow us and enable our area to be like a safe haven to those people.
08:09And you know that SLM was able to provide security for them.
08:17And also able to provide at least security and some shelters because SLM requests indignance.
08:28Those indignance of Jabalmarra area and surface Jabalmarra, which is bigger than Belgium as a state.
08:39We request them and people disturb their shelters with them and their food.
08:46But we are not able to provide more than that.
08:51We are not able to provide food.
08:53We are not shelters.
08:55We are not able to provide for them medicines and etc.
09:00And really it was a nightmare for us when rainy season came and roads were blocked because of fruit.
09:13And we thought twice and saw that it is not the right idea to depend on UN because UN cannot provide every time.
09:25So we request from the people who are land owners to ship their land for two reasons.
09:36One is for self-satisfaction to provide food to their families, to themselves.
09:43And second for business reason is also to make food availability.
09:50I will go through this very quickly.
09:55And we thought that it was a very successful idea.
10:00And we break that gap of lack of food and with success.
10:07But now SLM is in a prison dilemma that we are not able to provide food because we don't have.
10:15We don't have also medicines assistance.
10:19We don't have anything besides providing security.
10:26Our belief is that SLM is the best thing but it's not enough.
10:32And we are here to discuss with you what can all of us collectively do to assist those people.
10:40Second, in our country Sudan needs a ceasefire and a ceasefire for humanitarian and also permanent ceasefire.
10:53In Sudan also there is for sovereignty for the moment.
10:58Sovereignty of SLM which is under SLM control and this is a complete like independent state.
11:07But SLM is not calling for separation of any part of Sudan.
11:15We are union movement.
11:18We want to unite the movement, unite the country.
11:23We want to unite Sudan but in a new role.
11:27Which you know that Sudan is, you know, a mosaic country.
11:32A country of Islam, country of Christianity, country of African belief.
11:40There are people claim that they are Arab like us claim that we are an African.
11:47There are other claim that they are not Arab, they are not African but they are Sudanese.
11:52So our vision is that be as you are.
11:56Be Arab, be Muslim but do not force this idea to the others.
12:01We want everybody to be as him, as a group or as a person.
12:07But not inform your identity to others.
12:12This is why we are calling for equal citizenship right.
12:16Our object today is to love each other.
12:19But at least if you are there not able, let us recognize each other to live together like us you are.
12:28And we do believe Italian sample is completely like our sample.
12:36Here I will stop.
12:40As SLM what we did.
12:43We initiate, we initiate that we want to retain December revolution.
12:51And December revolution goals.
12:55We initiate as SLM initiative that all Sudanese, those who believe in democracy.
13:04Civilian in particular, we want to retain December revolution entities and December revolution goals.
13:16We call upon all Sudanese political parties, armed resistance group, civil society, tribal chief and etc.
13:30All of us to come together and sit and create a bigger civilian block.
13:37For three reasons.
13:39First, to stop this war and end it.
13:43Second, to retain December revolution entities.
13:48And third, to retain December revolution goals.
13:53And we are about to make a miracle.
13:57Everybody came in board.
13:59There was a small dispute between SPLM North and Umma party.
14:05Umma party is a religious political party.
14:11And SPLM you know it has 40 years beside SLM led by us.
14:21That we want to change this country.
14:24They are indifferent that for the phrase of circularism.
14:28SPLM North remains continuous the phrase circularism.
14:36And SPLM, Umma party said that they accept the meaning, but they want this meaning to be break down.
14:48Would they accept the meaning, but not the phrase.
14:51And when we are in this debate, first, suddenly Tasis, which you know is a political body have been formed.
15:00And now they support RSF.
15:04Emerge and stop us.
15:06Now we retain with the same initiative, the same way.
15:11And we are here to get your support.
15:14And this support will not come with the phrase only.
15:18It's need a financial support.
15:21It's need also diplomatic support.
15:24And also it is need logistical support.
15:28Thank you.
15:29I will stop here and we are ready for question.
15:32Thank you so much, Mr. Alnour.
15:38I will now ask my colleagues who are participating remotely if they have any questions.
15:42I have some questions myself.
15:44Should I start?
15:47Maybe?
15:48Yes.
15:49So I do have some questions.
15:54We saw how terrible the humanitarian situation is and we were told yesterday about it.
16:07We've spoken with Medecins Sans Frontieres.
16:12We've spoken with different communities such as the community of Saint Egidio which operate in your country.
16:19So I would like to ask you if you have any news about the city of Al-Fashir.
16:28I think it's important to share news with the committee about this city.
16:37What are you most concerned about?
16:41And from your point of view, what is the situation like from a humanitarian point of view?
16:47I think this will be my first question because we do really need to talk about the humanitarian aspect.
16:53We will ask a series of questions and then you can answer them all together.
16:59The second issue I would like to raise is about the composition of the conflict, so to speak.
17:08So what are the main obstacles to solving this conflict?
17:17The interference of external actors which have different interests in Sudan?
17:25Is it difficult to satisfy the requests of one party or the other?
17:35And the third question is about the role of the EU and Italy.
17:43Of course, we've spoken about the role of the community of Saint Egidio in bringing the two parties closer.
17:52But from your point of view, what can Europe do?
18:01What can European countries do?
18:05And how can Italy do its part to help Sudan?
18:10Our idea is that our perception is that all European actors were not interested enough in what was going on in Sudan.
18:26But maybe you have a different perspective.
18:28I think my colleague and people also wishes to ask you a question.
18:32Good morning.
18:33Thank you, Chair.
18:36And thank you, Mr. Impagliazzo, for organizing this hearing.
18:41I would also like to thank and welcome Mr. Alnour.
18:47He has spoken about the situation in Sudan.
18:52And in his speech, he has already spoken about the humanitarian crisis, the lack of medicine, of food, and the need of a ceasefire.
19:04That's what I would like to ask.
19:06What is the end goal of this conflict?
19:10To further separate Sudan?
19:12Is that the final goal?
19:14After the loss of South Sudan, is there a political project to separate Darfur from the rest of the country?
19:26Is the sovereignty of Sudan under threat?
19:32Is the unity, the very unity of Sudan with all its provinces and regions under threat?
19:39And who is interested in supporting this political project provided it exists?
19:45It seems like in this war there are external interferences.
19:56We've spoken of the United Arab Emirates and other countries as well.
20:06But why are they interested in supporting a party to the conflict?
20:23And is there interest, the interest of the United Arab Emirates in supporting this civil war?
20:32And is there any real willingness of ending the war?
20:37You were saying that citizenship rights need to be equal.
20:42No group should prevail.
20:45Sudan is rich in different ethnicities, different religions.
20:52But how can we ensure respect and coexistence?
21:05The war in Darfur has been going on for many years.
21:11We all remember the Janjaweed.
21:15And we all know that part of the Janjaweed group became the RSF militia.
21:24So there is this attempt to Arabize the population, the African population, so to say.
21:33How can we move past this stalemate?
21:38Thank you.
21:39Thank you so much.
21:41Thank you.
21:42And Mr. Aldur, you have the floor.
21:45Thank you, madame, monsieur.
21:51To talk about Al-Fashir, you know that war breakthrough in Al-Fashir after a while, after the war breakthrough in the country.
22:08In that time, SLM initiate that Al-Fashir, and now we want to talk about Al-Fashir.
22:17The capital city of Darfur, and also was a big region of Sudan was under control of Fashir because of the Sultanate of Darfur.
22:31This is one of the oldest Sultanate on the continent.
22:38It was before Judaism, and before Christianity, and before Islam.
22:44And in Islam, they were giving relief to Al-Kaab, Makkah, more than 45, 450 years.
22:56So, it's a great history, great Sultanate.
23:01And as SLM, we initiate that.
23:07I personally, as Abdul Wahid, I study in Al-Fashir High School in Darfur.
23:13They call it Darfur High School, biggest school in the country.
23:17And also, we initiate that war has not to break through.
23:23We want Al-Fashir to be a safe haven to Sudanese people, to people from Darfur, from across the country.
23:32And we know Al-Fashir has a lot of infrastructure.
23:37So, people of Sudan and people of Darfur can take it as an advantage.
23:46And we initiate also that, we as SLM, as a neutral force, we will take over Al-Fashir, not to be our territory, but to be safe for Sudanese people.
24:02But unfortunately, most of the warring parties, they agree, but there are very few that personalize it, that if they are not an Al-Fashir,
24:19and they are appointed as a governess or anything else, so they will not be in a position to claim that they are governess of Darfur.
24:31So it was rejected as a personal, not as the public relief and the interest of Sudanese people and Darfurian people.
24:42So, as you see, war breaks through, and Fashir, although it has everything, it has completely destroyed.
24:53And now, Janjaweed or RSF is controlled Al-Fashir.
25:00And as we see, and you see, the humanitarian disaster, it is a catastrophic story.
25:09It is, those who are rich in Al-Tawila, which are under control of us.
25:14People told about massacre, about atrocities, about the nightmare of them from Al-Fashir to Al-Tawila, which is like 60 kilometers.
25:30And really, really, it is a disaster to hear those atrocities and those terrible stories.
25:38Hopefully, this will be a last war to our country.
25:43Another question was, what is the main reason of fighting in Al-Fashir?
25:50Fighting is not in Al-Fashir. Fighting is at the cross of Sudan.
25:54It started in Khartoum, brutally, and then to Al-Jazeera, and then to White Nile, and then also to Kurdifan.
26:04And now Kurdifan is continuing, and then Darfur, the last area.
26:07So, the main reason for us as SLM, it is a power struggle between RSF and SAF, between Islamists and RSF.
26:20Between people, between both of them, they don't want civilian, civilian governors.
26:30They want to militarize our life, our political life.
26:35And all of us, let us here, to unite it.
26:40It is not RSF. Who created RSF?
26:43It was the militia of Dengawit, who killed and raped and did every bad thing in Darfur.
26:52And then it was Shurta Zayna, which is a right police.
27:00Because there was a lot of resolution from Security Council condemning Dengawit militia.
27:08and then it was, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh...
27:16Uh, it was, uh, uh, uh....
27:20Uh, uh...
27:22There is, and also, it then became a board guard led by Musa Hilal.
27:31When Musa Hilal, we secretly make a negotiation with him, he disagree with them, and then
27:41they create rabbit support force.
27:44And you know better than me, when rabbit support revolt against them, against these
27:50Islamists and stuff, they dissolve them, and they retain a guard board.
28:01So it is a creation of these Islamists, it's not a problem of Janjaweed militia, it's not
28:09rabbit support force, it's the one who create them.
28:13And before they create popular forces, and then they create, in South Sudan, they create
28:24Bujahideen, they create Murhalin, which is an Arab tribe in South Darfur and Kurdistan.
28:38And then they create Dababin, they create, now here in Sudan, they create joint force, they
28:47they create a lot of militias, and they are there.
28:58So, if there is a company produce bad product, the problem is not the product, the problem
29:09is a company.
29:10The company who is producing all of these atrocities, it is Islamist in power, and all of us let us
29:19unite.
29:20And you Italian, I would like to tell you very frankly today, and I am here, we receive 6 million
29:29IDPs.
29:30Minimum, if we don't receive them, 6, 3 of them, they will be here.
29:39Because there is not any hope for them, except to cross the desert, and to come to Libya, and
29:46to come to Italy.
29:48Because the nearest place.
29:50So we have interest, mutual interest with you, to work together, first to stop this war,
29:58to relieve this IDP there, because we are running out, we don't have any resources.
30:06Without working with you, as the first source, believe me, we will be hopeless, because we
30:14don't have money, we don't have anything to relieve them.
30:18And then they will have only one option, to go through this desert.
30:24Some of them will die, some of them will die in the Mediterranean, but most of them also
30:31will be here.
30:33So this is the reality.
30:35Mayor, I have another question.
30:37No.
30:38If you allow me to finish.
30:39Laura non ha finito, scusami.
30:40Ah, scusa.
30:41Sorry, we're not over yet.
30:42Sorry.
30:43Please go ahead.
30:44You ask me what is the role of Europe, and Italy in particular.
30:56If you ask me about European Union, we believe that European Union, they have interests and
31:04they have a biggest role, and the biggest role is, first, to work with us to succeed this initiative,
31:14to create a civilian coalition, to retain December Revolution goals and objectives, and we are nearly
31:25to do that.
31:26But we want you to help Santagidia to achieve that, because through Santagidia, which is
31:35a friend of all parties, including war parties in Sudan, and including others political and
31:45military bodies, to work with us to succeed this initiative, and this initiative, it is,
31:54if it succeeds, it will be a solution to us as Sudanese, it will be a solution to Italy,
32:01and it will be a solution to the European Union.
32:09People also ask us, what is the last goal of Darfur in this war?
32:16Darfur is not the one who makes war.
32:21Here in Europe, I would like, and Italy, to correct a point.
32:30If there is a problem here in Milan, or in, in, in, let's say, Napoli, people are talking
32:42the problem in Italy.
32:45But in Sudan, if there is a problem in Darfur, people are Darfur.
32:49This is not a continent, this is a country called Sudan.
32:54So the problem in Darfur is the problem of Sudan in Darfur.
33:00In Nuba Mountain, the problem of Sudan in Nuba Mountain.
33:05The problem in Khartoum is the problem of Sudan in Khartoum.
33:10So Sudan is not a continent, it is a country.
33:14Please let us, all of us, identify the problem as it is.
33:19It is a Sudan problem, it is not a Darfur problem.
33:23Second, what is the, we are the one who revolted, 25 years ago, is the regime who create all
33:34of these militias which I mentioned minutes ago.
33:39So the problem is not a Janjaweed militia only, it is a system of Islamists in Khartoum.
33:47And all of us, if we want to stop all of these tragedies, is work with us to change these Islamists.
33:57Because their vision was here in Italy, was in Europe, was in the United States, was elsewhere
34:04in the world.
34:05So let us, all of us, make a coalition against these Islamists.
34:10And the only way is that, to unite Sudanese parties, political and civilian, as the revolution,
34:19and then make a transformation, which was to create a coalition, civilian coalition.
34:28And this civilian coalition end up with a civilian government, and civilian transition end up
34:36with fair and free election.
34:43So who has an interest of this situation?
34:48The interest is for Islamists, because people of Sudan make a civilian, civilian revolution,
34:59and to stop this civilian, to stop this transformation, General Burhan made a military coup to stop this
35:09transformation, and then create all of these militias.
35:14They called them three days ago, three days before the war breaks through, that these militias,
35:24they came from the womb of the Asaf.
35:31And now they call them rebels.
35:34So the problem is Islamists in power and para-Islamists in power, whether military or political body.
35:45So our enemy here, your enemy, all of us enemies is Islamists in power.
35:56People also ask about Emirates.
36:01You know that we are here, we are so small than to open a front with anybody.
36:13But if you were with us to unite Sudanese civilian fronts, then we will be strong enough, in order to achieve our own goals.
36:25And control our own goals and control our own issues as Sudanese.
36:30Then others have the right to come to us to make win-win game.
36:36All of you, I would like to tell you that Sudan is the most richest country than Gulf countries collectively.
36:48Sudan has all of minerals, gold, uranium.
36:57The area which we controlled at SLM is full of uranium, gold, diamond, gas, petrol, everything.
37:10So, as a country, we are very much rich.
37:14And all of you, you know that Sudan, before Islamists to be in power, they call us dust of food of the world.
37:25Basket of the food of the world. Basket of food of the world.
37:30And today we are basket of hunger of the world.
37:35In Congress.
37:37We don't have much time left.
38:04Do you have any more questions?
38:08Thank you.
38:09Thank you for your comments, your explanations.
38:13I think that creating a coalition of civilians with the support of the international community
38:21can really be the start of a new negotiation process.
38:30Mr. Alnour, I believe you are also speaking with the Italian government and with governments of other countries.
38:41And I would like to know whether you will be meeting with the Minister of Foreign Affairs here in Italy.
38:47And will you be having other meetings in the EU as the Sudan liberation movements?
39:01Were you received by other European countries?
39:05Were you able to present your project?
39:10And were you able to find support for your solution to the conflict?
39:20And you will be able to find support for your solution to the world?
39:21I think that the other countries are in Europe, the member states of the EU.
39:24I wonder if they are interested to finally take part in the solution of this war.
39:37We started in Umdurman and now is going on in Darfur.
39:41So is there a change of perspective there in the approach of these other countries?
39:48And how are negotiations and talks going with different governments?
39:53I'm especially interested in the Italian governments and other European governments.
39:57Thank you.
40:00I will be brief.
40:02You know, yes, we have invitation from Switzerland, invitation from Norway, invitation from Germany, invitation from Syria, and, of course, invitation from France.
40:25These are countries, and we think that we are going to expand it.
40:29So, yes, we have invitation, and we are going to meet all of these countries.
40:37Yeah, second, second also, which is the most important for us, we have here to thank you, Santa Gidia, because also they play a major role to have all of these meetings.
40:51And also what we, as SLM, sing that and believe that it is our start is from Italy.
41:02Yes, invitation came from Santa Gidia, but we also aim that Italy to be our first steps, and you are the battle man and legislative body of the country.
41:15You should know that when we, when we, when we decide to come to Italy first, because we know how sensitive it is to Italy, because, as I mentioned in the beginning, this six million, I think that you have enough in your plate and menu,
41:40So, you don't need another IDP or refugees, so, please, make it as a priority, you are a very important member of European Union, and very also important country in Europe.
41:59And for Sudanese, you are really friends, because you received, in more than two decades or three decades, a lot of Sudanese here, and it is time for us to work together for lasting peace, and no more refugees.
42:17And our initiative here, which we taught now, it is the only solution, how to stop the war and end it, and make a sustainable peace in our country.
42:30I would like to thank you so much, I never give a chance to my colleague, because, they have a lot to add, but your time, and if you don't mind, I will give them a floor.
42:47Okay, thank you very much once more, and thank you for Sant'Egidia. I really appreciate this opportunity to address you, and thank you.
43:01Thank you, I would like to apologize with our other guests, Ibrahim Mahadam and Mohamed Abdel Razzik, but however, we have to move to the plenary, we cannot continue with this hearing.
43:16I really want to thank Commissioner Alnour. During the hearing, we received the news that there has been a new strike in Kordofan, there have been more than 40 victims, and they were hit by their rapid support forces.
43:31So, we will certainly keep paying attention to what is going on in Sudan, and we will do whatever we can do, so that the Italian government can play a more active role.
43:44We know how important Sudan is, and the fact that there is a civil war and great instability in that country can have great, serious effects for countries of the whole region.
43:57It's not just a humanitarian issue, a terrible humanitarian issue, but it's also about helping that part of Africa, so it cannot go back to where it was 10 years ago.
44:10Thank you once again for your work, and thank you. I would like also to thank the community of Sant'Egidio.
44:15Thank you for your time.
44:20Thank you.
44:24Thank you .
44:30system
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