- 3 months ago
The top focus of this episode of 5 Live is on the political storm over Delhi's hazardous air quality, with allegations of AQI data manipulation.
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00:00Hello and welcome, I'm Sodal Mehrotra Kapoor, this is your Health O'Clock.
00:17If you stay in Delhi or NCR, there's only one thing that's really dominating your mind.
00:22It's the constant cough, headaches, allergies, and this time around,
00:27a lot of wheezing that seems to be dominating people all across.
00:33All across ages, doesn't matter where you stay as well.
00:36So what exactly is happening?
00:38Well, the same.
00:39The same issue has been dominating our minds for the past several years now
00:43and this year, there's a new twist to it.
00:46The question really that we're asking today is,
00:48is the Delhi government trying to manipulate the air quality data?
00:53That's the controversy in the capital and Delhi is battling all of this post-Diwali pollution spike as well.
01:01The opposition has raised some serious questions,
01:03alleging that the government is continuously spraying water in and around the air quality monitor stations
01:12to force a dip in the readings.
01:14But can that really happen?
01:16Is that the reality that we're living in?
01:19That we are very poor after all those effects?
01:23We'll talk about that on the program.
01:25It's been a week, remember, since the Diwali celebrations,
01:28but Delhi continues to wake up to not-so-fresh mornings at all.
01:31Delhi's AQI remains to be in the very poor category
01:35and some areas are choking as always in the severe quality as well.
01:39Now, as per CPCB, that is the Central Pollution Control Board,
01:43locality such as Bawana, there is Anand Vihar,
01:47usual culprits, all of them, AQI readings,
01:49are already around 400 plus for 30, 450 at certain areas as well.
01:54Out of the 38 monitoring stations across Delhi,
01:5823 stations have reported very poor air quality with readings above 300.
02:05All of that just around Diwali time.
02:09And yesterday, city's air quality had marginally improved to the poor category.
02:15But the brief respite is not really, you know, all about the efforts,
02:20but also some are saying thanks to the air quality just sort of improving
02:25because of weather conditions.
02:27But let's move back to the controversy.
02:30Where did this question really come from in the first place?
02:33It all started with that video that we are going to put on your screens right now.
02:37The Aam Adi Party's Delhi chief, Saurabh Bharatwaj,
02:40recently put out a full-blown exposé.
02:42He posted a video showing four MCD water tankers
02:47going round in circles spraying water around the sensors
02:52of the Anand Vihar air quality monitoring station.
02:55In his post on X, this is actually the footage that we got.
03:00Let's also show our viewers the footage that Saurabh Bharatwaj
03:03actually put out on his social media.
03:05He wrote on X saying water is being sprayed day and night
03:08at the Delhi pollution monitoring stations to reduce the pollution and AQI readings.
03:13Obviously accusing the BJP government of manipulating the pollution data.
03:17artificially lowering the air quality index reading.
03:21The Aam Adi Party leader said that this data management will not work
03:26because pollution control is really not happening.
03:29He also has now demanded that the Supreme Court should recognize this matter,
03:33take cognizance of this and take matter in their own hands.
03:37So that's the allegation that's actually come in.
03:41Let's try and understand what exactly was the response to this.
03:46We got a reaction from the Delhi Chief Minister herself.
03:52When we asked her about these allegations,
03:54she doesn't really deny it.
03:56Very interesting reply. Take a look.
03:58Take a look.
04:05One more video.
04:07He said that wherever AQI is not able to go,
04:10you have a lot of tankers running there.
04:13The tankers are shooting there.
04:15They are shooting there.
04:16In other places, AQI is not able to go anywhere.
04:19What is the difference?
04:21In which area we will go, AQI will come.
04:23Who has said that where the water is blowing,
04:25AQI will tell you.
04:26AQI will tell you that the water is blowing.
04:29In October, it has been Diwali,
04:30or in November, it has been over.
04:32It has been over.
04:33It has been over.
04:34In this case, there is no doubt that the water is blowing.
04:39Because if we are Ram Ji's work,
04:40so Ram Ji is our work.
04:44Alright, so you heard the Delhi Chief Minister there.
04:46She is not exactly denying these allegations.
04:48She is saying if you are putting it in one minute,
04:49then go and see it in the other minute.
04:51So interesting reply over there,
04:53which brings me to question that is this really happening?
04:55And did it not happen earlier when Amati Party was in power?
05:00Is this only a Delhi phenomenon?
05:02What exactly is the reality on the ground?
05:05All these allegations aside, let's get a reality check of our own.
05:09Let me bring in my colleague, Shivani Sharma,
05:11who is joining us from Karkar Duma in Delhi.
05:14Shivani, Karkar Duma, another place where we have seen pollution levels go into the severe category year after year.
05:21This time around, what are you seeing?
05:23And if you can give us a glimpse of that pollution monitoring system as well.
05:26It's the evening, the pollution levels are going little down, but right now where I am is the Karkar Duma station.
05:45I'll keep showing you the visuals also.
05:47This is the monitoring station which was, according to the reports, was not working or perhaps was showing a data which was older right after Diwali.
05:56And similar was the picture with most of the 38 monitoring stations across Delhi as the ground report was also filed by our colleagues.
06:04So, right now, if we check this particular monitor, it says the air quality data on 27, that is today.
06:12The different things, the composition is also being shown out here.
06:18Though, the air quality index per se, what is being said here is 118.
06:25While, if I check that similar thing, as the CM of Delhi was saying, Sonal, in my mobile, it is 184.
06:34So, there is a difference that might be because, you know, the pollution control board representatives have been saying that there is a delay in uploading the data while this particular monitor is off the Karkar Duma.
06:48There are several other monitors which were reportedly not working.
06:52And what the version came in from the Pollution Control Board was that after Diwali, generally every year this happens, there is some systematic error, the technical glitch after Diwali to which it takes time to mend.
07:05And there is no intention to hide the data or to manipulate the data.
07:09Even the Chief Minister has been saying, Sonal, that last year also after Diwali, the AQI was similar, though there was a ban on the crackers.
07:18So, this time, what she is saying, that even after the Supreme Court had given a green cracker go-ahead in Diwali, the AQI after Diwali has been same.
07:28But the question is that why is there a difference in the monitor data and the data on the mobile?
07:35Is this a failure of the system or is this an intentional difference or something which is trying to mislead the people?
07:42So, this can be a technical glitch as being claimed by the Pollution Control Board, but Sonal, the reality is that people in Delhi every year after Diwali are suffering with this poor and hazardous quality of air.
07:59And the effects are quite evident, not only on the children, the elders, but almost people of all ages.
08:08So, that's what is happening this year, too. And there's a need of a lot of work to be done on this front. Sonal.
08:16So, what Shivani is telling us is that at the particular location where she is at, at Karka Duma, there is a difference in the reading on the board that is getting flashed versus what the app says.
08:27Now, there are others, two others that our colleagues actually checked during the day, where the meter is only not working.
08:33Now, we don't know if the meter is not working or if there is a fault in the display. So, there's a lot of confusion.
08:38But clearly, we have now come to question the data altogether, thanks to the allegations that have come in from the opposition.
08:45But these are just allegations, remember, like I said. Let's try and get an expert opinion.
08:50Joining me next is Anumita Roy Choudhury, Executive Director of Centre for Science and Environment, CSE.
08:56Thank you so much for joining us, ma'am. My first question really, can data be manipulated with sprinklers?
09:04Will it show a lower reading because of sprinklers being around it?
09:11So, you know, it is very difficult because we have, we have to kind of, we have seen, all of us have seen the videos that the water is being sprinkled all around the monitoring station.
09:24Now, maybe to some extent, the data can be modified that way because if you are continuously dousing the dust and around certain radius of the monitoring station, maybe that will have some, but then there is nothing in front of us to verify that what exactly is happening.
09:43We have only read reports that exactly is happening. We have only read reports that are saying that this may lead to more erratic reading and so forth.
09:50But clearly, what is very important for us to keep in mind that Delhi has really invested hugely monitoring stations, 40 stations in one city.
10:02And now, if we do not get reliable data, and this kind of efforts are made to somehow modify the reading in the monitoring station, then, of course, it really worries us because we know that the data plays a very important role, not only in informing policy action, but also to inform people about the kind of safeguards they need to take when the pollution levels go up very high.
10:31So that's why what we would say that whether it is trying to modify the data or eclipsing the data that for some hours the data just disappears for whatever technical glitches, it is absolutely essential to ensure quality control and quality assurance of the monitoring stations.
10:52These are not small investments. I mean, one monitoring station costs us more than a crore.
10:59You know, when such a huge amount of money has been spent on so many monitoring stations, it is very important for us to ensure that we get credible and reliable data.
11:11That is fundamental. Because data plays a big role.
11:16I get that, ma'am. Nobody is questioning the fact that we should be getting good data.
11:20What I'm trying to understand from you, is there a yes or no answer to whether sprinklers will bring down not the quality of air, but only the reading of AQI?
11:30Is there a yes or no answer to the data? It can influence the data. It can influence the data, but that will depend on what is the radius that you are sprinkling the water.
11:40Whether you are, you know, because we have not verified it. So we are also going by what is reported. And therefore we have to see that if you are trying to control emissions around the monitoring station, it is likely to have some impact on the data reading.
11:59But exactly what that will have to be verified and that requires an independent verification.
12:05Got it. Which is why the opposition is saying that let's Supreme Court step in and do an independent sort of inquiry on this.
12:13But ma'am, the question really is that sprinklers were used as any way as a mechanism to make air quality better, correct?
12:20Yes.
12:21Over the past several years, we have seen, according to the Supreme Court orders as well, according to GRAB guidelines as well, at a particular point, you see the sprinklers being on the roads.
12:31Outside, especially construction places, we see sprinklers being put out as well.
12:36It's any ways a mechanism used to make air quality better.
12:42What I'm trying to understand it, what is the difference in that sprinkler being put only in the area where air quality is getting monitored?
12:51So see, I mean, it is usually said that a monitor captures the air quality roughly around two kilometer radius around the monitoring station.
13:05You know, that is the kind of grid that is applied to a monitoring station.
13:10So if you make hugely concerted effort to reduce the hotspot emissions around the monitoring station, it is likely to have an impact on air quality.
13:21I mean, that's not a problem. Of course, as you rightly said, that sprinklers are in any case used to reduce the dust.
13:29But here you are doing this in a very concentrated way, very close to the monitoring station.
13:36But what the city requires is more widespread action targeting all key sources of pollution so that overall air quality of the city can improve.
13:48So that's what we have to keep in mind that you clearly if there are there is a dust source around the monitoring station and you are dousing the dust with sprinkler and with water, then the dust impact will reduce.
14:05Now, to what extent it is going to impact the reading in the monitoring monitor that we have to establish?
14:13Because there are certain other criteria that are applied to monitoring station like the monitor will have to be placed at least six feet high at a height for the ambient concentration to be captured.
14:26So it is open ended. We expect it will have some modifier effect on the data. But to what extent?
14:34We don't know yet. But you're saying it's a question worth asking.
14:39I'm saying it's a question worth asking. It's a question worth asking answers to.
14:51So this is not an absolute answer. It can have a modifying effect because we have not verified it.
14:57But it is, but if you are, but it is common sensical. If you are trying to control emissions close to the monitoring station, then that is right to have an impact on the data.
15:09Got it. Ma'am also help me understand the pollution monitoring systems in Delhi are also of different kinds.
15:17For example, there are some that go up to 500 level of AQI. There are others that go up to 999.
15:24Then there is one which has been installed at the US embassy, which has a very different reading of its own.
15:29Every time I hear of somebody who's traveling from abroad, they are not really relying on this.
15:34Apple has another, you know, or any of the even androids have a different kind of meters.
15:40There are so many different numbers here, which is the most reliable one, according to you.
15:46So there are two different systems. So the Indian monitoring system that we have.
15:52So there is already a method for estimating AQI. But it is often seen that when the data reaches 999, usually the data does not go above that.
16:06Maybe we do not know, CPCB will have to clarify that, whether we are capping the number or we are filtering the number.
16:13Because often it is said that even though the monitors are capable of monitoring data much higher than 999, but very high level, the data can also become more uncertain.
16:28Now, we do not know what CPCB is doing about very high levels of data.
16:34When you got it now, the US embassy and their calculation method of AQI is different from us, because the US embassy AQI calculation is connected linked to the the standards that the US follows and the standards that US follows are different from the standards that India follows.
17:00So, for instance, if you know, if our daily standards for PN 2.5 is about 25 microgram per cubic meter, then the US is perhaps I think about 15 or so.
17:13So they have more stringent standards than ours. And AQI is a relative number. It is in relation to your standards.
17:22So our standards are not as stringent as the US standards at this moment.
17:28So therefore, the AQI number and the categories, hazardous, good, etc. will also vary. So that is the rough, you know, the ways of...
17:41It's a tough one. I don't know what to say. I mean, it's bad enough that even if they were to be, you know, manipulated, we are in the very poor category.
17:49And then what's even worse on top of that is that what if that data is not true?
17:53But I would just say one point, you know, I'll just make one point.
17:56Very quickly, ma'am, yes.
17:57People don't have to really be so heartless on the exact data point.
18:02So what is very clear for us is that the readings that we are getting, they are exceeding the standards a lot.
18:09Okay. And so that in itself is very harmful.
18:13So we have to therefore reduce it and keep in mind that right now in Delhi, levels are going up when the impact of farm fires is less than 2%.
18:24So it is all local pollution building up right now. And Diwali is also over. So we have to be more focused on the actual emissions from the source.
18:35If we can control that, we will also be able to control the ambient quality of the air quality.
18:40I think my takeaway from what you've said, ma'am, is this, that it doesn't matter that you're 350 or 500.
18:46At the end of the day, you need to be 50. And till the time you're not hitting that, no government gets to celebrate or criticize.
18:54That's the number that we really need to be chasing. But regardless of that, we need to look into what this number is really,
19:00what this manipulation allocation is all about. Thank you so much, ma'am, for joining us and putting that into perspective.
19:07All right. But it's not just air, water pollution. That's also a problem that Delhi faces.
19:13As devotees in Delhi gather on the banks of Yamuna for Chhat Puja, data reveals a shocking picture of rivers' health.
19:20Now, according to the Delhi Pollution Control Committee, the biochemical oxygen demand, a key indicator of organic pollution,
19:27stood at 20 milligrams per litre in October this year at the ITO bridge. The safe limit there is 3.
19:34It's at 20, needs to be 3. This means the water is far from fit for bathing or rituals in many of the stretches.
19:42The cleaning of Yamuna River has been a bone of contention between both Amati Party and BJP. Frankly, it should be worrying us all.
19:49Both parties are now trading charges over cleanliness of the Yamuna River and accusations, again, of fake ghats and politicization over shadowing the celebrations.
20:00But nothing new, right? We've all seen these pictures. The one of the drone pictures actually shows a specific area.
20:07This one cleaned only for bathing, the rest not so much. What's the reality? Here's a report to take you through all of that.
20:15Chhat Puja is here, and so is the politics over it.
20:24Tensions flared in Delhi between the BJP government, led by Chief Minister Rekha Gupta and the Opposition Arm Admi Party over the cleanliness of the Yamuna River.
20:33Chief Minister Rekha Gupta defended her administration, highlighting sewage treatment upgrades and ongoing efforts to clean the river.
20:40In Delhi, the pipeline of Siverr in Delhi, the SDP of Delhi, the decentralized SDP of Delhi, the decentralized SDP of Delhi, the decentralized SDP of Delhi will be clean.
20:47Then Yamuna will be clean. There is no work for one day. I say that I have gone and I have gone and got clean and Yamuna Ji is clean.
20:54No, sir. There will be time. Now, the previous governments who have done the crimes of the previous governments, who had done so bad, was in the midst of it.
21:08Arm Admi Party Delhi Chief Saurabhadwaj accused the BJP of building artificial ghats and misleading the devotees over cleanliness of the Yamuna, claiming the ruling party was politicizing the festival ahead of the Bihar elections.
21:21The BJP, however, dismissed these allegations as baseless and politically motivated,
21:49with Chief Minister insisting that these were genuine environmental initiatives, not a publicity stunt, unlike in previous years when the scene remained unchanged with devotees offering prayers in frothy, polluted waters.
22:02India today took a boat ride to track Yamuna clean-up first-hand.
22:03India today took a boat ride to track Yamuna clean-up first-hand.
22:05India today took a boat ride to track Yamuna clean-up first-hand.
22:12I would like to show you in these images that there is a weed harvester machine.
22:13India today took a boat ride to track Yamuna clean-up first-hand.
22:14India today took a boat ride to track Yamuna clean-up first-hand.
22:15India today took a boat ride to track Yamuna clean-up first-hand.
22:16India today took a boat ride to track Yamuna clean-up first-hand.
22:22India today took a boat ride to track Yamuna clean-up first-hand.
22:25India today took a boat ride to tracks Yamuna clean-up first-hand.
22:30clean up first-hand.
22:55As the city celebrates Shat Pooja on the banks of the Yamuna, the river clean-up continues
23:00to stir debate.
23:02With Anjana Om Kashyap and Anmol Bali in Delhi, Bureau Report, India Today.
23:11The Delhi belly, what exactly are we looking at?
23:13Clean air, clean water, is that really a distinct dream?
23:16No party really seems to be having a solution or even a road map for it?
23:20Well, that's a story we'll keep tracking here on Five Live.
23:25That's it from me for today, we'll catch you again tomorrow at the same time.
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