- 21 minutes ago
On this Special Report, the focus is on the Centre's decision to set its own air quality standards, dismissing global rankings like those from the WHO as merely 'advisory'. Environmentalist Vimlendu Jha criticizes the move, stating, 'The government is saying that the standards of Europe or America or of WHO or of IQA doesn't apply to India as if Indian lungs breathe something different.' BJP leader and CPCB member Dr. Anil Gupta defends the government's efforts, citing dust mitigation on Delhi's '28,508 kilometers' of road network. Congress spokesperson Bhavya Narasimhamurthy argues that changing parameters won't fix the 'poison' citizens are breathing. The panel discusses the need for a bipartisan solution as pollution levels remain severe.
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00:00Joining me on the show tonight, Vimlendu Jha, environmentalist.
00:04We have Bhavya from the Congress Party,
00:07and Dr. Anil Gupta is part of the Delhi BJP board member of CPCB.
00:14Before I bring in the politicians, I want to understand from you, Vimlendu Jha,
00:19when the government now says that India will set its own air standards,
00:23global rankings not efficient, what does it actually mean?
00:27Are we running away from the truth?
00:29Not ready to fail?
00:30Please.
00:32So yes, Maria, in that one breath, when the government has actually agreed
00:35to have a discussion on air pollution issue,
00:39conceding, ideally the government should have done this so motto,
00:42you don't need a politician of any political party to remind the government
00:45that this is the most urgent issue.
00:47In the same breath, the government is saying that the standards of Europe or America
00:52or of WHO or of IQR doesn't apply to India as if Indian lungs,
00:56you know, breed something different.
00:59And also it has said just a couple of days ago that nobody in India actually dies
01:04because of air pollution or falls unwell at all.
01:07And while the government admitted position or the amicus admitted position in the Supreme Court
01:12has been that the air quality monitors shut down at the peak of pollution,
01:17still the average and what the environment minister is saying that we have actually fared better than last year.
01:24So if you turn off the air quality monitors, if you sprinkle water on air quality monitors,
01:29when you say that nobody dies or nobody falls ill,
01:32when the world's most reputed health organization called Lancet tells you that a million and a half people die each year
01:39because of air pollution,
01:40when you know that already India's PM 2.5 standard and other standards are eight times higher than WHO.
01:49And now we're saying that we don't even believe in those standards at all.
01:52So in a way, glad that this discussion should happen because this is a bipartisan,
01:56multi-partisan, you know, it's an issue that it should affect everybody and there should be a consensus.
02:01High time that countries should fight this all together rather than it's not a BJP versus...
02:06Absolutely. It's not BJP versus the Congress, BJP versus the Aham Admi Party
02:10because you cannot blame any of the neighboring states.
02:13The air quality seems to be bad in just about every metropolitan city.
02:18And that's the concerning part here.
02:20Dr. Anil Gupta, Deirai Durustai would be the larger sentiment.
02:26But is the Delhi government also ready to share the blame, the BJP government in Delhi,
02:31that you made tall promises when you came to power,
02:35but now you are also shifting blame just as your predecessor did?
02:40No, no, we are not shifting the blames to anybody.
02:43We are working on the dust mitigation.
02:45We are working to control the air pollution.
02:48We don't say that we have control, but we are working on this.
02:51And whatever the honorable environmental minister has mentioned in the parliament,
02:55he just compared the figures with the previous years.
02:58And definitely, if you take the figures from February to September,
03:03the AQI was better.
03:05And from October, November and this is December,
03:07if you take the AQI readings, it was better than the previous years.
03:11The work done by the Delhi government for dust mitigation should be appreciated.
03:16And we have a lot more to do.
03:18I am not saying the solution is there, but we need some more time.
03:21It is not a one-day job to clean the air.
03:23We are working on this.
03:25If you give me the time, I will narrate all the points which we have undertaken.
03:28Yes, you know, you may be speaking about what all you have done,
03:35but the sense is that India has taken its position in global indices such as IQ Air's world air quality ranking,
03:45the WHO global air quality database, the environmental EPI,
03:51which is the Environmental Performance Index,
03:53the global burden of disease metrics, and the Environment Ministry has said,
03:58no official country-wise pollution ranking is carried out worldwide.
04:04So, you are essentially dismissing all the parameters which were so far used to measure pollution.
04:11See, India has the National Ambient Air Quality Standards, which were formed in 2009.
04:17You know, there are 12 parameters into that.
04:20And for measurement of the AKR, we take into consideration the eight parameters.
04:24These are the established percent.
04:26And we take the WHO standards as the advisory one also.
04:31And we should have touched on our...
04:34You know, India is a developing country.
04:35It is not a developed country.
04:37That time, the Congress government was there.
04:40Still, that practice is there.
04:42But if the parliamentarians discuss something and they come out with something new,
04:47government, I think, is acceptable to the idea.
04:49But we should not say that the world standards are better as capital in India's.
04:54Whatever you have mentioned, they are the private agencies.
04:57India has one of the best parameters you can calculate.
05:00But if you look at the thick smog, which has engulfed the entire national capital region,
05:08we cannot say that the standards by which so far the pollution was being measured is incorrect.
05:15If you are not able to clean up the air, then that should be the effort rather than dismissing the data which has been put out.
05:23And that is my limited point here, Dr. Gupta, I'm going to come to you.
05:25But Bhavya, effort which has been made by the leader of opposition here, many would say it's well taken.
05:33Because it is a bipartisan issue.
05:37It cannot be division along party lines.
05:40So this is like every party in India should come outside their ideological, you know, this comes under everyone's ideology.
05:57There's no boundary of ideology when it comes to such issues.
06:00Air pollution, that too, in the capital city of India, this is something very concerning and very embarrassing at a global level.
06:11And the future of India, our children are breathing this air.
06:16I have read somewhere that, you know, even smoking in another city is better than breathing in Delhi.
06:22That is the standard Delhi has been reduced to right now, the air quality in Delhi.
06:27We definitely appreciate the fact that Centre has agreed to come out and discuss this issue in the Parliament.
06:36But is that enough?
06:38Like you pointed out, you know, just a discussion is not enough.
06:41We need to see actions.
06:43We need to see, right now we are saying, yes, we will be with the Centre, we will discuss and we actually need a city-wise plan.
06:50It's not just we are going to only concentrate on Delhi.
06:52We don't want this situation to come up again in another state of India, a developing state.
06:57Or a developed state or whichever state in India.
07:00So we need a city-wise plan so that we know what are the causes of this air pollution in each city and we can come up with a solution.
07:07But if Centre doesn't, if it brushes off like every other issue or say things like, you know, WHO standards are not binding on us, they're just mandatory.
07:16I mean, come on, like, first thing is the Delhi government tried even faking the AQI index, air quality index once.
07:24But to say something like this is not acceptable.
07:28The standards need to be definitely high at any cost.
07:31If our standard is better than a world standard, then yes, we accept it.
07:35But please do not reduce the standard.
07:38But the point that has been made by the Minister of State for Environment, Mr. Kirti Vardhan Singh, is also worth watching and considering here, Bhavya,
07:48irrespective of the Treasury benches and the logic which is coming from them.
07:52They are saying that the WHO's guidelines are meant to help countries set their own standards.
07:59Okay.
07:59Okay.
08:00Goes on to talk about that taking into account geography, environmental conditions, background levels and national circumstances.
08:09So perhaps the WHO guidelines are more like an advisory.
08:13So the government of India, which should have happened in the past, my question is that why are we waking up to these WHO guidelines now?
08:22Guidelines.
08:22Now, exactly.
08:24My question is, no matter what standards, today if you see Delhi, you know it's far below any standard that even you set or any other countries can set or even the WHO has set.
08:36Now to talk about this only shows like, you know, we are not committed to reduce the pollution.
08:41Instead, you know, make sure the standard will match the pollution.
08:45That's not how it works.
08:47Right now, concentrate on reducing this pollution.
08:50Keep the highest standard so that we will reach it someday in some years at least, if not next, tomorrow.
08:59When you set your standard, it should always be higher.
09:01So as a concerned citizen and also as an environmentalist, we'll all be looking forward to this discussion.
09:07Finally, the parliamentarians are waking up to an issue which affects us on a daily basis, on an hourly basis, on a minute-by-minute basis.
09:16I'm sitting inside my office.
09:18All of you are in closed spaces.
09:20But imagine what it will take when you step out.
09:24You are breathing poison.
09:26That's the concern for every Delhiite, all of us who live in the NCR region.
09:30But, you know, politicians discussing it in parliament, what will we be really achieving here, Vimlenru?
09:38So I'll tell you what we will achieve.
09:40Right now, there's a deficit of political will.
09:43And therefore, it also means when we actually show our inclination or interest or intent in terms of political will,
09:50then that would mean that our investment, first of all, for air quality governance will increase.
09:56You know, India spends 20,000 crores over six years across 130 cities for air quality governance.
10:04Versus each time we talk about Beijing, Beijing was actually spending 1 billion to 2 billion U.S. dollars per year for air quality.
10:12So, you know, when you actually make it a national issue, because the other issue, Maria, is that Delhi gets disproportionate attention vis-Ã -vis air quality.
10:19The reality is that air of entire India, almost 90% of India's air, actually falls under poor category, very poor, severe or severe plus.
10:28So my thing is that at the end of the day, we cannot find private solution to a public problem.
10:33And we actually have to find a public solution.
10:35And public solution can only be found from the parliament of India rather than a legislative assembly of Haryana or of Delhi or of Uttar Pradesh.
10:44Because you and I, of course, talk about NOIDA, Gurgaon, Delhi and so on and so forth.
10:48We talk about air quality monitors of Delhi not working or working or whatever that Mr. Gupta would talk about.
10:53Reality is that 50% of CPCB and state pollution control boats don't have their manpower there.
11:00So we don't have budget.
11:01We don't have governance infrastructure.
11:03We don't have data.
11:04In fact, 70% of Delhi, India's air, is not even measured in reality.
11:08And therefore, I disagree with the Congress spokesperson saying that we need to have a city plan.
11:12No, we need to have a pan-India plan because, you know, what we'll end up doing, unfortunately, is we'll actually move out of Delhi to Delhi NCR.
11:19At best, we'll go to Indo-Gangetic Plain.
11:22At best, we'll actually keep fixing our city's air.
11:25And in this process, we'll keep doing one small band-aid to a little bigger band-aid.
11:29But it will remain a band-aid solution.
11:31What India needs and what I want to really, you know, invite Prime Minister Modi, and he can do it because he, if he wants to do it, he can do it.
11:39In the next 10 years, if we actually invest in public transport regime throughout the country, if you look at coal thermal power plants that actually contribute to almost 10 to 15% of ambient air quality,
11:50if you look at construction demolition norms, if we actually empower our pollution control boats, a lot of these things could be solved.
11:57So, you know what, sprinkling water, you know, 90% of government's budget today, Maria, goes in sprinkling water over dust for overnight settling of dust rather than sorting of the source.
12:09So, we're not really, we, all our India's budget actually goes in fixing the symptoms or fixing the data or fixing the perception rather than fixing the source of pollution.
12:19And really hope, and I'm so glad that there was no bickering in the parliament today when this issue came.
12:26And I do not care whether it was Rahul Gandhi who raised this issue or perhaps it could have been a Sanjay Singh.
12:31Any political party, every political party will have to discuss this.
12:35I have lost my voice for almost a week and I'm sure you have too.
12:38Absolutely. Dr. Anil Gupta.
12:39Steve, I mean, as I mentioned earlier, these standards were framed in 2009.
12:48I just saw your screen before the start of the debate.
12:52Even today, there are several cities in the country which have the AQ of 50.
12:58There are several cities which have AQ of 100.
13:00So, what, even for Delhi NCR, we have a commission for AQ management.
13:07That is the only reason in the country which is going for the imposition of the GREP, GREP 1, 2 and 3.
13:13So, Delhi has a plan.
13:15But, what will happen for this change of these parameters?
13:19I know, if the parliamentarians want, they can go in for this thing.
13:23Okay, why is Vimlendu disagreeing with what Dr. Gupta is saying?
13:26So, you know, right now when we talk about changing of parameters, how does it change the air?
13:32Changing the parameter just by changing the passing marks, does your exam result change?
13:39Just by changing the standard by, you know, instead of 100 being up very poor.
13:44And that's exactly what we've done.
13:45India doesn't even measure air quality beyond 500.
13:48Can you imagine that?
13:50And the reason what the government gives, the reason why our air quality monitors of the government,
13:54which are half the time shut down and sprinkled with water, they actually peak out at 500
13:59because they say that there will be panic in the world.
14:02So, is 500 AQI and 800 AQI the same?
14:07So, we need to understand that data is very, very fundamental, Mariya, for two prime reasons.
14:11One, data tells you, gives you a private advisory and public advisory for some sort of an emergency response.
14:18To put a band-aid, to really, you know, stop bleeding in that sense.
14:21That's one.
14:21Two, what data and acceptance of data or really honest intent of capturing data,
14:27what it tells you that over 12 months, you'll be able to understand that is it vehicles that pollutes?
14:33Is it winter that pollutes?
14:34Like right now, what Mr. Gupta was talking about, Delhi's air was really good.
14:37Of course, Delhi's air was really great in the month of June, primarily not because of governance,
14:41because it rained heavily this season.
14:44So, the best good air day of Delhi was not because something great was done by our government.
14:49It was because the rain got, bless us, bless us.
14:52Dr. Gupta and Bhavya, I have 30-30 seconds for both of you.
14:56Dr. Gupta, go ahead.
14:58See, let me first clarify.
15:00Nobody sprinkle water on air quality monocytation.
15:04It is just this spreading of lies.
15:06You know, who can sprinkle water on the equipments?
15:12Delhi has a road network of 28,508 kilometers.
15:16For dust mitigation, these sprinkler machine, which are there on the screen,
15:20they are there all over the cities just to control the dust mitigation.
15:24And not only the dust mitigation, we are controlling the source of the pollution also.
15:30We are lifting, you know, this in eight months, we have lifted an extra 30,000 metric tons of the dust from the roads,
15:37which is one of the source.
15:38And one more thing, this AQI has eight parameters.
15:41These six parameters are within range.
15:44It is only the particular matter 2.5 and 10, which is creating problems.
15:47And the government is doing enough on this.
15:50And we say it is not a one-day job.
15:53It will take some more time to do this dust mitigation.
15:57And if you say that only the parameter changing…
16:01Dr. Gupta, you know, a multi-pronged strategy is needed, not just dust mitigation.
16:05That is true.
16:05That is true.
16:06Because, of course, dust may be the biggest contributor to pollution,
16:13but there are so many challenges.
16:15Yes, Vim Lindu, you have a point again.
16:17No, no, dust is not.
16:19Vim 10, please understand.
16:20Vim 2.5 is the most dangerous thing.
16:23Because Vim 2.5 particulate matter is 30 to 40 times smaller than human hair.
16:28And therefore, it actually affects your bloodstream.
16:31And therefore, right now, 90% of, you know, all the RTI says that one,
16:36of course, there's very less spending.
16:37One is a very minuscule amount allocated, 3,000 crores per year.
16:4310,000 crores.
16:46And a lot is actually spent on sprinkling of water.
16:49That's not a solution.
16:50Vim 2.5 is the main, main killing…
16:53Vim 2.5, finally, the politicians are doing what they are supposed to be doing,
16:59which is an important discussion which should happen on pollution,
17:02which will take place because there is consensus.
17:04And I agree with Vim Lindu, what it can lead to is some kind of, you know, consensus around solution,
17:11which is needed, and at the same time, political will.
17:15The politicians are talking about that political will,
17:18that they are looking for credible solutions, irrespective of the parties they're coming from.
17:23So, I totally, I totally agree with the environmentalist here, Vim Lindu Chha,
17:31when he spoke about, you know, how we are actually concentrating on mitigating the symptoms
17:35and not actually working on the cause of this pollution so that we reduce the pollution.
17:40I totally agree with that.
17:43It's about a change in the perception of the government and the commitment.
17:47It just shows if you keep giving reasons like, no, we didn't sprinkle water, no, we didn't do this.
17:52No, please accept what is happening here.
17:56Just by changing the standards, you can't change the pollution levels here.
18:00It's about the people.
18:01It's about the children.
18:02And most importantly, like we just spoke, you know, we are all sitting in these closed-end closures.
18:07I'm sitting in Bangalore, I'm not even being affected by this pollution.
18:11But I can only imagine Delhi, the rich people sitting in their AC cars,
18:16sitting in their AC houses, offices with air purifiers.
18:20What are the poor people going to do?
18:22If you compare the longest time, a poor person will definitely be breathing this air, this impure air.
18:29This is a matter of equality as well.
18:31We have really come to the end of this discussion.
18:33We certainly look forward to that discussion because that's the need of the hour
18:37as we have been saying, Mimlendu Jha, Dr. Gupta, Bavia, I really appreciate your time.
18:41Thank you for joining us on this very important discussion.
18:44That's all from me.
18:45Thanks so much for watching.
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