- 9 months ago
This episode of 5 Live focusses on the growing pollution exodus from Delhi, as families and individuals relocate to escape the toxic air.
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00:00all right hello and welcome this is five live we've got a full program packed up for you one
00:06which look at the very interesting question of what the delhi exodus is all about the pollution
00:12exit is all about but first up we've got some news updates coming in from chhattisgarh let's
00:17take a look at that this is a horrific train accident that is coming in from chhattisgarh
00:21bulaspur where a freight train and passenger train collided head-on causing several coaches
00:25to derail over a dozen passengers have been injured some which have reported to be in critical
00:32condition as well those pictures on your screen where we are told that at least six people are
00:38feared dead as of now the commissioner of railway safety is to investigate the bilaspur train
00:45incident altogether and the railway rescue teams have also been rushed into the spot the relief
00:51operations are underway as you can see the impact of the collision was so severe that multiple
00:57coaches climbed over each other of course there is panic in the area but you can clearly see that
01:05point of collision over there where a freight train and a passenger train collided head-on
01:21all right those pictures coming in from your screen right now are from bilaspur in chhattisgarh we're in
01:35a horrific turn of events two trains collided with each other head-on you can see that there is one a
01:43freight train and one a passenger one one on top of the other as this point we know that at least six people
01:50have been feared dead and also dozens understandably injured several in critical condition as well
02:20all right for years now doctors have been saying it leave delhi if you can every winter pollution
02:35levels hit a new high every study links thousands of deaths to toxic air and every year the warning
02:43gets louder the city the air here is killing you but is anyone really leaving can you just walk away
02:51from your home your job your city you've must have heard of something called pollocations these are like
02:59some short escapes when the air turns really bad but what happens when pollution isn't just a season
03:05anymore when it's 12 months off a year when children here in the national capital are born with weak
03:13lungs when adults live with constant coughs headaches and burning eyes when the air outside your door
03:20feels like a slow poison what do you do do you fight it you learn to live with it or do you finally say
03:29enough is enough today we are asking a very pertinent question something I'm sure has hit your minds as
03:37well conversation with friends and family as well has the delhi pollution exodus begun is it really a
03:45possibility now are people actually packing up their homes their jobs their lives and leaving leaving the
03:56national capital region not for fun or adventure or even work but simply to breathe right on the program
04:05today we'll hear from those who have actually made that call the ones who loved delhi but had to leave
04:11it to just live so is dinli chhodo the pollution exodus an actual reality now something that is actually
04:21happening let me introduce our guests now first up with us today is sangeeta odai shankar sangeeta is a
04:32software engineer she left delhi about eight years ago and she was annoyed had a house of her own but
04:40decided to move to bangalore sangeeta can we first start with you try and understand what was the image a
04:47trigger so i was in delhi for basically noida ncr noida i have to be precise and we were there we had bought a
04:57house my work location was very much close by everything was going perfect and then all of a
05:04sudden around 2015 i saw that there was a little bit of a dark air outside and then then 2016 it felt
05:11like a black doomsday kind of an atmosphere outside and 2017 i was carrying and then i didn't want to
05:19risk it uh my son i delivered was a preterm he had a a weak lung so i really didn't want to risk it and
05:27then my husband also developed chinasitis we could see black um dust or kind of a black spot in his
05:33mucus as well so we didn't want to take any more chances so we moved and i moved back to my hometown
05:39bangalore wow your story sangeeta is one that sounds like mine here in noida work is close by family is
05:50close by you know everything is fine except for this air but you've managed to make that move
05:56did you not think about what you're leaving behind and did job did life come easy in bangalore
06:04um so all our plans were derailed uh what we were made home what we got comfortable with we had
06:12developed our own circle we had elders who were like treating us like their children our parental
06:17you know everything was set we had somehow made up our minds and though bangalore was home and
06:23everybody wants to come to bangalore but i was in noida and very happily there and then but then
06:29health comes first um i did have a tough pregnancy i didn't want to risk it i didn't want to risk it
06:36any chance so health was always on priority so we did have to calculate everything and um we did have
06:42a tough time to sell our house as well which uh we had you know it was our first car first house
06:48the first of everything i moved there after wedding after my marriage um so everything was at the first
06:54and all the emotions and all the things that we had built i had to you know we took the tough call
06:59and i think it's worth it because health comes first at the end of the day health comes first although
07:05i'm not sure if bangalore is any better when it comes to traffic at least but we'll come to that
07:09in just a bit uh you know you're being brave about it right now let me bring in our other
07:14uh you know you know case studies here as well also with us is malini now malini is a public health
07:21activist she of course knew the perils of what this air is doing to us much before any of us
07:27caught on to it uh malini also has an interesting story she has now relocated to chennai
07:32malini so you clearly understood that health comes first you clearly knew what this toxic air
07:40constantly was doing to us not just in these four months but throughout the year
07:44you obviously knew that the numbers which we think are moderate and okay is what the west would
07:51come to a standstill at us uk european countries canada etc they would all just shut shop shut down
07:59all schools at the air which we consider breathable here in delhi but my understanding is this every time
08:08i hear a doctor say leave delhi if you can i find it so easy for them to say so hard to implement how
08:14do you pack up your entire life your kids school your job and just move to another city how did you do
08:21that hi sonal thanks for having me um i resonate with a lot with a lot with what was said earlier and i
08:30think that the single reason that really pushed us to do make that shift was my daughter who is now
08:36about three and a half years old so i have grown up lived and worked in delhi for a decade and in
08:43spite of living through years of poor air quality year on year especially post diwali uh and in the
08:49case of my partner who has a condition called uh allergic rhinitis uh we never made a serious attempt
08:55to leave the city so it was only really after my daughter was born that the two of us had a very
09:00clear understanding that this is not something we want to expose her to in her early years uh when
09:06children are disproportionately at risk uh from uh the effects of air pollution and another uh i think
09:13another factor was also that everywhere we looked all of our friends with small children uh they have
09:19all uh had stories of you know emergency er visits or respiratory issues of children on dealers and i think
09:27we just had the reality that there are no precautions that one can take when it comes to protecting small
09:32children and so that's the reason for the move to chennai which obviously we were very lucky to be able
09:39to exercise the choice and may not be a viable option for everyone else that's true not a viable option
09:45for a lot of else but i'm hearing two mothers say exactly the same thing and something inside me is
09:50getting triggered as i as i hear that as a mom myself that it was just too much to put your kid through
09:56that a child who cannot wear a mask it's not advisable to wear a mask below three under five also in
10:03certain cases you can't keep them indoors in an air purifier running all the time they have to go
10:08outside living indoors sort of you know it just doesn't help them going out will impact their life
10:14physical and mental so what do you do you've got to pack your bags and leave
10:19but after having heard from two moms let me bring in a dad here now jaidhar gupta is an environmentalist
10:26like everybody else he's obviously aware but jaidhar you got a complication your own health complication
10:33something that you were not born with but what you claim is delhi air did to you
10:39yeah hi sonal i i was diagnosed with uh bronchial asthma i was running and training for a marathon
10:49in delhi desire in 2013 and uh you know soon after that i turned into a cleaner activist uh was part of
10:58delhi government's air pollution think tank as well in 2015 when we actioned uh the odd even uh in an
11:06effort to create awareness because uh i believe that awareness precedes change uh however you know
11:11that the the kind of uh city delhi is uh the awareness has not led to change which is which is
11:19my mind baffling uh i i thought uh parents in this city would be up in arms uh the kind of uh toxicity
11:27that goes into our body every day we we inhale 12 000 liters of air in a day and people are so busy
11:33filtering water uh and and nobody's uh emotional nobody's passionate about something which uh you
11:42can't stop your breath you know so what are you going to do you have to uh you have to leave this
11:47city and i remember telling the chief minister in 2015 that property values in this city will crash
11:54i don't understand why anybody would want to live in gotham city and that's what delhi is today
11:58and and it's not a few days people think it's farm fires two three weeks diwali this this is a 10
12:05month problem i mean uh and even even uh the monsoon time where we have we at best we have moderate air
12:12i mean the last time we met the indian national standard of air quality was on september 10th of
12:172023 which is eight times the who standard so what are we talking about here uh you know and the kind of
12:25complications are the kind of toxicity that we're talking about we don't even know what's in our
12:30air it's microplastics it's uh black carbon nanoparticles the kind of pesticide that's used in
12:36agriculture the kind of chemicals that are used in industry we don't even know what's entering our
12:41body right yeah and jay i completely understand what you're saying in fact a couple of years back
12:47uh jay and i were there at the at the india gate where he where we were still educating ourselves on
12:55masks on the right kind of masks but i'll come to you about in a moment on why do you think it doesn't
13:02bother a lot of people it bothers some to the degree that they leave the city and it doesn't bother
13:08others where they're going out and running marathons in 400 aqi they are cycling in 400 aqi
13:16so i really want to understand what is going wrong in this air pollution conversation where
13:20we don't have everybody on the same page but before that let me bring in mohini now mohini's
13:26story really stuck with me because unlike anybody else she doesn't have a home to go back to
13:31dilly is her home this is her house she stays in uh grew up in gk1 stayed here she's an actual
13:41thoroughbred dilly wala but now she doesn't stay in delhi anymore i want to understand how hard was it
13:50to really go through this mohini and what did you do what about occupation
13:56yes so i was born in delhi and i grew up in delhi along with my schooling and college for 37 years
14:03before i decided to move finally my base from delhi to goa and now i am relocated in goa since eight
14:10years and i i i was also asthmatic growing up as a child and then i was traveling extensively around
14:20the world and when i would go to such beautiful locations all around the world i would i wanted to
14:25live closer to nature and breathe clean air and when i got pregnant i decided now or never like
14:34this is the time that i can really take this bold move and i i shifted i shifted my base though i was
14:42really thriving in my travel business at that time but i chose a slow-paced peaceful life over money and
14:50yeah and we love now being in goa we have fresh mangoes and coconuts from the trees and yeah my
14:58child and we live very like five minutes close to be so we enjoy the nature here and i still like to
15:05go back to delhi time to time to visit my family but i would not compromise nature or living in nature over
15:15yeah unhealthy polluted air so yes and it's a bold move but it is possible and sometimes we might have
15:24to compromise over money or work but it is worth it i would say compromise over money compromise over
15:33work to in order to prioritize health in order to prioritize upbringing for your kids that's what i'm
15:41hearing in from all the three mothers there on our panel today and also from jay but malini come in
15:48on this point it's an it's a privileged move not everybody can afford to do this it's also a difficult
15:57move i don't want to undermine this by any stretch listening to all of you i'm thinking what am i putting
16:02my child through with this air but where are we where are we going wrong in this why do you think like i
16:09said and i'll come to with that question to jay also in a bit there are some people who are so
16:14impacted by air that they leave there are others who are still running and exercising where are we
16:20lagging in that conversation so maybe i don't know if i have all the answers honal but i'll just say that
16:28i think that we have to recognize that it's not a viable solution for people to just pick up and leave
16:33because there are millions of people who are tied to delhi for their work for their livelihoods for
16:39various other reasons they have to support their families and where would they go so you'd have to
16:45escape the entire pollution belt of north india and there are other cities that are not much better
16:51than delhi for example mumbai is almost as bad so as uh you know in my personal uh experience of
16:58course i haven't regretted the decision because chennai is one of the few metros that has clean air
17:04but uh but in a sense i have been forced to reach a compromise professionally so delhi being the seat
17:10of government is an important place for anybody working on policy issues actively and so i do feel
17:15that alongside the many burdens and demands of motherhood uh there has been an additional trade-off
17:21uh with my keeping my child's welfare in mind uh and who knows maybe i will have to move back for
17:29professional reasons so i don't think that we can um you know you can't discount people's constraints
17:36and other uh you know uh needs and uh in having to stay in delhi but uh as a public health professional
17:44i just have to add that stress of course the need for greater awareness of the health risks and
17:48uh uh you know say the same thing about you know uh increasing the demand for action and accountability
17:57better solutions from the government uh even though uh yes yeah i just want to make a small point before
18:04we go ahead for any of you watching right now and all of those uh you know who don't with us as well
18:09we've been running when i put out the story earlier yesterday evening that this is the story that i want
18:15to track i want to understand if people are actually leaving delhi and taking doctors advice the amount
18:21of response i got was overwhelming even for me i thought there'll be a specific few privileged people
18:27who will manage to go back to their hometown still work from home etc but that wasn't the case last i
18:33counted i got 30 verifiable responses on just one post on instagram where people said that they left delhi
18:41only for pollution and request the producers to put those graphics up as well for people to actually
18:47see those who could not join us on the program today but all of them have a story to tell uh so jay
18:53tell me about this then you move to utarakhand right you go for a couple of months etc but it's unfeasible
19:02for some people to just simply do that what is what are we thinking about even is this and you know
19:11there was a time that's why you know there was a time when we said delhi chalo there was an entire
19:15generation of people like me largely millennials in the 90s who grew up in small towns and thought
19:21if i had made it to delhi my dream had been achieved right i still call delhi my karma bhoomi
19:27but of late i'm coming to question at what cost does it come at the cost of my health one of my child
19:35as well no there's there's a huge cost associated with it and i and i i and i i i've said it a few
19:44times already uh in the last few weeks i think the cost of uh living in delhi the health cost of living
19:51in delhi far outweighs uh uh the benefits of it uh no question about it it's uh uh you know you you
20:01asked by the way you you you use the word pollucation which i don't like because it's
20:06glamorizing pollution uh i like to think of myself as a pollution refugee i'm a refugee i'm forced to leave
20:14my home so this is not glamorous in any way this is not something anybody desires i'm being forced to
20:20become a refugee because of my eyes are swollen uh i have i have the allergic rhinitis which turns
20:26into your into a bronchial asthma attack and a bronchial cough this is not anything that anybody
20:32desires so i think i think the right terminology is i i am a pollution refugee i'm not definitely not
20:38taking pollucations which which sound kind of fun actually uh no this is not fun uh i'm being forced
20:45away from work i've been forced away from family uh you asked a question you know why haven't we got
20:52this right uh you know sonal in in 2015 who declared delhi as the worst air quality city in the world and
21:01we've had three delhi elections since then and we have failed to put clean air uh as as a in any manifesto
21:10as as a high demand it's not been in the top 10 in any election in any manifesto i think it's a
21:17failure on the part of the citizens of delhi repeatedly i i don't even know what we're voting
21:23for anymore in delhi or any other part of this country because nobody cares about health and
21:28environment and and it's biting us in the ass right as we speak okay i i think you've got a really smart
21:35bunch of people on this panel and much smarter than me because i'm still spending some time in delhi
21:41these ladies are so smart i you know i wish i had moved out in 2013 or 14 and now i'm you know it's
21:48not a chennai or a bangalore i mean i'm moving to the remotest area in utrakhan where there's no humans
21:55because i just want to be around nature and animals or nature in all its forms like i have lost my faith
22:02in humanity is is where i'm at because the citizens can't get it right because we fail to
22:08vote for the right things again and again and again the government has no accountability i i mean
22:15what the schools are going on there's no health advisory there's no mask mandate people are dying
22:22you you know you read you see the obituary section in the newspaper it's getting longer and longer nobody
22:28cares i mean there's a clear established science uh you know associating uh air pollution with
22:36morbidity and mortality we're talking about years of life lost of 11.9 years by living in delhi
22:43nobody in in in government is is believes in the science they keep refuting the data ignoring the
22:50problem i think the real problem is they feel like a five-year term is too short a span to change
22:56behavior and that's the real problem and they're not going to step into it they're not going to put
23:01their foot into it unless we citizens make it a vote bank issue and that's the problem and we fail
23:06citizens who want to make it a vote bank issue are either moving out or not voting and i think you
23:12write that it hasn't become a problem just yet and not been raised by citizens enough last few minutes
23:18on the program so i want to give that uh to both uh sangeeta and also mohini there sangeeta very quickly
23:26you are as as a software engineer i just want to understand this have you taken a hit
23:32on your work in order to prioritize health and today if you were to do that again would you
23:39do i did take a hit i was in a very well an mnc where i was growing up the ladder and my work was
23:48proven but i had to take a call to move out and change the jobs and then i did not have a remote
23:54option and so i had to get to work but then again um but i i still would not take a chance and move back
24:02um so not and i don't i haven't seen anything improve at all it's been at the same stage or rather
24:08getting worse day by day so i really wouldn't want to take a chance or anyhow to move back to
24:14delhi or ncr all right there you go the pollution exodus has clearly begun it's not just sangeeta
24:22malani jay and mohini whose story these are like i said these are stories of several more people and
24:27others who are saying i wish i could so perhaps time for us to ask ourselves this question as well
24:33are you really voting on issues like these does it really matter we leave you with that food for
24:38thought and we'll see you again tomorrow same time thank you so much for watching think about
24:44what is a priority think about what's more important bye
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