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In this episode of Newstrack, the focus is on the rare political consensus on India's air pollution crisis.
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00:00Hello everyone, you're watching NewsTrack with me, Maria Shaquille, 10 days into the
00:04winter session and Parliament has mostly been trading blows over one day matram, SIR, electoral
00:11reforms, everything except the toxic air. Millions are forced to breathe outside those
00:18walls. Now as the final week kicks in, the crisis choking Delhi and large parts of India
00:25might finally cut through the noise. The air emergency. Rahul Gandhi is reminded that pollution
00:31is killing Indians young and old and his push to rise above politics has nudged the government
00:37into agreeing into a discussion. All this even as the government insists it won't go by global
00:43air quality rankings and will stick to its own norms. WHO guidelines, the government says they
00:50are not mandatory, just advisory. So the question is, are these steps enough to take on a crisis
00:56of the scale or have our netas woken up a little too late? That's the question that I'm going
01:02to ask on to the panelists who will be joining me shortly. But first up, here's what happened
01:06today.
01:10Nehru, Tagore, one day matram, electoral reforms. All of these have echoed through the winter
01:17sessions so far and justifiably so. But one burning issue, the one suffocating you, me and the rest of
01:25the capital and almost the entire country has barely found a whisper. Pollution, the slow, silent killer,
01:33an air emergency claiming thousands every year, yet somehow not important enough to feature on
01:39parliament's priority list. Only after nationwide outrage and relentless India Today coverage have our
01:46busy netas finally bothered to focus on a most fundamental right, the right to breathe.
01:53Leader of opposition, Rahul Gandhi was the first to break the silence, warning the house about the
01:58poisonous air we are all forced to breathe and demanding a proper debate.
02:05Everybody in this house would agree that air pollution, the damage it is doing to our people
02:11is something that we would like to cooperate on. I think the government should have a discussion
02:18in parliament. We should all have a discussion in parliament. And we should try, we should try and not
02:24make it a discussion where we are abusing you and you are abusing us.
02:30And in a rash of unity, the government has agreed to consider it.
02:36So far, pollution has made its presence felt only through symbolism. Congress MPs arriving with masks,
03:02cylinders, and props to highlight the air emergency.
03:06I am completely honest and in my opinion, everything is honest. The government has said that we should
03:12discuss everything and make an action plan. It's been a lot and it's been growing every year.
03:17But here's the bitter question. Will one token discussion change anything? Will a single session
03:24magically fix years of apathy and denial? Because even as the cities choke, the centre insists it will
03:32follow its own air norms, not global data. The government maintains that WHO's air quality
03:38guidelines are just advisory, not standards India must honour. And to defend that stand,
03:43the environment minister claimed in parliament that Delhi's AQI from January to November has been the best in years.
03:50A debate on pollution is a good start. But let's be honest, it's literally one step in the many required
03:57to make us breathe easy, quite literally. Bureau Report, India Today.
04:05Joining me on the show tonight, Vimlendu Jha, environmentalist. We have Bhavia from the Congress Party
04:13and Dr. Anil Gupta is a part of the Delhi BJP board member of CPCB.
04:20Before I bring in the politicians, I want to understand from you, Vimlendu Jha,
04:24when the government now says that India will set its own air standards, global rankings, not efficient,
04:30what does it actually mean? Are we running away from the truth? Not ready to fail?
04:36So yes, Maria, in that one breath when the government has actually agreed to have a discussion on air
04:43pollution issue, conceding, ideally the government should have done this through a motto, you don't
04:48need a politician of any political party to remind the government that this is the most urgent issue.
04:52In the same breath, the government is saying that the standards of Europe or America or of WHO or of IQA
04:59doesn't apply to India as if Indian lungs, you know, breed something different. And also it has said,
05:06just a couple of days ago, that nobody in India actually dies because of air pollution or falls
05:11unwell at all. And while the government admitted position or the amicus admitted position in Supreme
05:17Court has been that the air quality monitors shut down at the peak of pollution, still the average
05:24and what the environment minister is saying, that we have actually fared better than last year.
05:30So if you turn off the air quality monitors, if you sprinkle water on air quality monitors,
05:35when you say that nobody dies or nobody falls ill, when the world's most reputed health organization
05:41called Lancet tells you that a million and a half people die each year because of air pollution,
05:46when you know that already India's PM 2.5 standard and other standards are eight times higher than WHO.
05:54And now we're saying that we don't even believe in those standards at all. So in a way, glad that
05:59this discussion should happen because this is a bipartisan, multi-partisan, you know, it's an issue
06:03that it should affect everybody and there should be a consensus. High time that countries should fight
06:08this all together. Absolutely. It's not a BJP versus. Absolutely. It's not BJP versus the Congress,
06:14BJP versus the Aam Admi Party, because you cannot blame any of the neighboring states.
06:19The air quality seems to be bad in just about every metropolitan city. And that's the concerning
06:25part here. Dr. Anil Gupta, Deirai Durustai would be the larger sentiment. But is the Delhi government
06:33also ready to share the blame? The BJP government in Delhi that you made tall promises when you came
06:40to power, but now you are also shifting blame just as your predecessor did. No, no, we are not shifting
06:47the blames to anybody. We are working on the dust mitigation. We are working to control the air
06:53pollution. We don't say that we have control, but we are working on this. And whatever the honorable
06:58environmental minister has mentioned in the parliament, he just compared the figures with the previous years.
07:03And definitely, if you take the figures from February to September, the AQI was better. And from October,
07:11November and December, if you take the AQI readings, it was better than the previous years. The work done
07:17by the Delhi government for dust mitigation should be appreciated. And we have a lot more to do. I'm not
07:24saying the solution is there, but we need some more time. It is not a one-day job to clean the air. We are
07:29working on this. If you give me the time, I will narrate all the points which we have undertaken, you
07:34know. Yes, you know, you may be speaking about what all you have done, but the sense is that India has
07:43taken its position in global indices such as IQ air quality ranking, the WHO global air quality
07:53database, the environmental EPI, which is the environmental performance index, the global burden
08:00of disease metrics, and the environment ministry has said no official country-wise pollution ranking is
08:07carried out worldwide. So, you are essentially dismissing all the parameters which were so far used
08:14to measure pollution. See, India has the National Ambient Air Quality Standards, which were formed in 2009.
08:23You know, there are 12 parameters into that. And for measurement of the AQI, we take into consider
08:28the eight parameters. These are the established percent. And we take the WHO standards as the
08:36advisory one also. And we should have touched on our, you know, India is a developing country. It is
08:41not a developed country. We, that time, that time the Congress government was there. Still, that practice
08:47is there. But if the parliament in India discuss something and they come out with something new,
08:52government, I think, is acceptable to the idea. But we should not say that the world standards are
08:59better as compared to India's. Whatever you have mentioned, they are the private agencies. India has
09:03one of the best parameters you can calculate. But if you look at the thick smog, which has engulfed the
09:10entire national capital region, we cannot say that the standards by which so far the pollution was being
09:19measured is incorrect. If you're not able to clean up the air, then that should be the effort rather
09:25than dismissing the data which has been put out is my limited point here, Dr. Gupta. I'm going to come
09:31to you. But Bhabya, effort which has been made by the leader of opposition here, many would say it's
09:37well taken because it is a bipartisan issue. It cannot be divisional, you know, along party lines. A bad air
09:48quality affects everyone. Yeah. So this is like every party in India should come outside their ideological,
10:00you know, this comes under everyone's ideology. There's no boundary of ideology when it comes to such issues.
10:06Air pollution, that too, in the capital city of India. This is something very concerning
10:14and very embarrassing at a global level. And the future of India, our children are breathing this air.
10:22I have read somewhere that, you know, even smoking in another city is better than breathing in Delhi.
10:28That is the standard Delhi has been reduced to right now, the air quality in Delhi.
10:32We definitely appreciate the fact that centre has agreed to come out and discuss this issue in the
10:40parliament. But is that enough? Like you pointed out, you know, just a discussion is not enough. We
10:47need to see actions. We need to see right now we are saying, yes, we will be with the centre. We will
10:52discuss and we actually need a city wise plan. It's not just we're going to only concentrate on Delhi. We don't
10:58want this situation to come up again in another state of India, a developing state or a developed
11:04state or whichever state in India. So we need a city wise plan so that we know what are the causes
11:09of this air pollution in each city and we can come up with a solution. But if centre doesn't,
11:14if it brushes off like every other issue or say things like, you know, WHO standards are not binding
11:21on us, they're just mandatory. Come on, like, first thing is the Delhi government tried even faking the
11:27AQI index, air quality index once. But to say something like this is not acceptable. The standards
11:34need to be definitely high at any cost. If our standard is better than a world standard, then yes,
11:39we accept it. But please do not reduce the standard.
11:42But the point that has been made by the Minister of State for Environment, Mr. Kirti Vardhan Singh,
11:49is also worth watching and considering here, Bhavia, irrespective of the treasury benches and the
11:56logic which is coming from them. They are saying that the WHO's guidelines are meant to help countries
12:02set their own standards. Okay. Okay. Goes on to talk about that taking into account geography,
12:09environmental conditions, background levels and national circumstances. So, perhaps the WHO
12:16guidelines are more like an advisory. So, the government of India, which should have happened
12:21in the past, my question is that why are we waking up to these WHO guidelines now?
12:27Guidelines now. Exactly. My question is, no matter what standards, today if you see Delhi,
12:34you know, it's far below any standard that even you set or any other countries can set or even the WHO has
12:41set. Now, to talk about this only shows like, you know, we are not committed to reduce the pollution.
12:46Instead, you know, make sure the standard will match the pollution. That's not how it works.
12:53Right now, concentrate on reducing this pollution. Keep the highest standard so that we will reach it
12:59someday in some years at least, if not tomorrow. When you set your standard, you should always be higher.
13:06As a concerned citizen and also as an environmentalist, we'll all be looking forward to this discussion.
13:13Finally, the parliamentarians are waking up to an issue which affects us on a daily basis, on an hourly
13:20basis, on a minute-by-minute basis. I'm sitting inside my office. All of you are in closed spaces.
13:26But imagine what it will take when you step out. You are breathing poison. That's the concern for
13:32every Delhiite, all of us who live in the NCR region. But, you know, politicians discussing it in
13:40parliament, what will we be really achieving here, Vimlenru?
13:44So, I'll tell you what we will achieve right now. There's a deficit of political will. And therefore,
13:49it also means when we actually show our inclination or interest or intent in terms of political will,
13:55then that would mean that our investment, first of all, for air quality governance will increase.
14:01You know, India spends 20,000 crores over six years across 130 cities for air quality governance.
14:10Versus, each time we talk about Beijing, Beijing was actually spending 1 billion to 2 billion US dollars
14:15per year for air quality. So, you know, when you actually make it a national issue, because the
14:20other issue, Maria, is that Delhi gets disproportionate attention vis-a-vis air quality.
14:25Reality is that air of entire India, almost 90% of India's air, actually falls under poor category,
14:31very poor, severe or severe plus. So, my thing is that at the end of the day,
14:35we cannot find private solution to a public problem. And we actually have to find a public
14:40solution. And public solution can only be found from the parliament of India, rather than a
14:45legislative assembly of Haryana or of Delhi or of Uttar Pradesh. Because you and I, of course,
14:51talk about Noida, Gurgaon, Delhi and so on and so forth. We talk about air quality monitors of Delhi
14:55not working or working or whatever that Mr. Gupta would talk about. Reality is that 50% of CPCB and
15:02state pollution control boats don't have their manpower there. So, we don't have budget. We
15:07don't have governance infrastructure. We don't have data. In fact, 70% of India's air is not even
15:12measured in reality. And therefore, I disagree with the Congress spokesperson saying that we need to
15:17have a city plan. No, we need to have a pan-India plan. Because you know what we'll end up doing,
15:21unfortunately, is we'll actually move out of Delhi to Delhi NCR. At best, we'll go to Indo-Gangetic
15:27Plain. At best, we'll actually keep fixing our city's air. And in this process,
15:31we'll keep doing one small Band-Aid to a little bigger Band-Aid. But it will remain Band-Aid
15:36solution. What India needs, and what I want to really, you know, invite Prime Minister Modi,
15:41and he can do it. Because he, if he wants to do it, he can do it. In the next 10 years,
15:46if we actually invest in public transport regime throughout the country, if you look at coal
15:51thermal power plants that actually contribute to almost 10 to 15% of ambient air quality,
15:56if you look at construction demolition norms, if we actually empower our pollution control both,
16:01a lot of these things could be solved. So you know what, sprinkling water, you know, 90% of
16:06government's budget today, Maria goes in sprinkling water over dust for overnight settling of dust,
16:13rather than sorting of the source. So we're not really, we, all our India's budget actually goes
16:18in fixing the symptoms, or fixing the data, or fixing the perception, rather than fixing the
16:24source of pollution. And really hope, and I'm so glad that there was no bickering in the parliament
16:29today, when this issue came. And I do not care whether it was Rahul Gandhi who raised this issue,
16:34or perhaps it could have been a Sanjay Singh. Any political party, every political party will
16:39have to discuss this. I have lost my voice for almost a week, and I'm sure you have too.
16:44Absolutely. Dr. Anil Gupta.
16:48I mean, as I mentioned earlier, these standards were framed in 2009. I just saw your screen
16:55before the start of the debate. Even today, there are several cities in the country which have the
17:02AKF of 50. There are several cities which have AKF of 100. So what even for Delhi NCR, we have a
17:11commission for air quality management. That is the only reason in the country which going for the
17:16imposition of the grab, grab one, two and three. So Delhi has a plan. But what will happen for this
17:23change of these parameters? I know if the parliament wants, they can go in for this thing.
17:28Okay, why is Vimlendu disagreeing with what Dr. Gupta is saying?
17:33So, you know, right now, when we talk about changing of parameters, how does it change the air?
17:38Changing the parameters, just by changing the passing marks, does your exam results change?
17:45Just by changing the standard by, you know, instead of 100 being very poor, and that's exactly what we've
17:50done. India doesn't even measure air quality beyond 500. Can you imagine that? And the reason what the
17:56government gives, the reason why our air quality monitors of the government, which are half the
18:00time shut down and sprinkled with water, they actually peak out at 500 because they say that
18:06there'll be panic in the world. So is 500 AQI and 800 AQI the same? So we need to understand that data is
18:14very, very fundamental, Maria, for two prime reasons. One, data tells you, gives you a private
18:19advisory and public advisory for some sort of an emergency response, to put a band-aid, to really,
18:25you know, stop bleeding in that sense. That's one. Two, what data and acceptance of data or really honest
18:31intent of capturing data, what it tells you that over 12 months, you'll be able to understand that,
18:36is it vehicles that pollutes? Is it winter that pollutes? Like right now, what Mr. Gupta was talking
18:41about Delhi's air was really good. Of course, Delhi's air was really great in the month of June,
18:45primarily not because of governance, because it rained heavily this season. So the best good air day of
18:51Delhi was not because something great was done by our government, it was because the rain got...
18:55Because the rain got... blessed us. Blessed us. Dr. Gupta and Bavia, I have 30-30 seconds for both of you.
19:02Dr. Gupta, go ahead. See, let me first clarify, nobody sprinkle water on air quality monitoring station.
19:09It is just the spreading of lies. You know, who can sprinkle water on the equipments? Delhi has a road
19:18network of 28,508 kilometers. For dust mitigation, these sprinkler machines, which are there on the
19:25screen, they are there all over the cities, just to control the dust mitigation. And not only the dust
19:31mitigation, we are controlling the source of the pollution also. We are lifting, you know, this in
19:37eight months, we have lifted an extra 30,000 metric tons of the dust from the roads, which is one of the
19:43sorts. And one more thing, this AQI has eight parameters. These six parameters are within range.
19:49It is only the particular matter 2.5 and 10, which is creating problems. And the government is doing
19:55enough on this. And we say it is not a one-day job. It will take some more time to do this dust mitigation.
20:02And if you say that only the parameters changing... Dr. Gutta, you know, multi-pronged strategy is
20:09needed, not just dust mitigation. That is true, that is true. Because of course, dust may be the biggest
20:16contributor to pollution, but there are so many challenges. Yes, Vimlindu, you have a point again.
20:23No, no, dust is not. PM10, please understand. PM2.5 is the most dangerous thing. Because PM2.5
20:29particulate matter is 30 to 40 times smaller than human hair. And therefore, it actually affects your
20:36bloodstream. And therefore, right now, 90% of, you know, all the RTI says that one, of course,
20:42there's very less spending. One is a very minuscule amount allocated, 3,000 crores per year.
20:48And a lot is actually spent on sprinkling of water. That's not a solution. PM2.5 is the main,
20:58main killing part. PM2.5, finally, the politicians are doing what they are supposed to be doing,
21:04which is an important discussion which should happen on pollution, which will take place,
21:08because there is consensus. And I agree with Vimlindu, what it can lead to is some kind of,
21:14you know, consensus around solution which is needed. And at the same time, political will.
21:21The politicians are talking about that political will that they are looking for
21:25credible solutions, irrespective of the parties they are coming from.
21:31So, I totally, I totally agree with the environmentalist here, Vimalindu, when he spoke
21:37about, you know, how we are actually concentrating on mitigating the symptoms,
21:41and not actually working on the cause of this pollution, so that we reduce the pollution.
21:46I totally agree with that. It's about a change in the perception of the government
21:51and the commitment. It just shows if you keep giving reasons like, no, we didn't sprinkle water.
21:56No, we didn't do this. No, please accept what is happening here. Just by standing,
22:02changing the standards, you can't change the pollution levels here. It's about the people.
22:07It's about the children. And most importantly, like we just spoke, you know, we are all sitting
22:11in this closed enclosure. I'm sitting in Bangalore. I'm not even being affected by this pollution. But
22:17I can only imagine Delhi, the rich people sitting in their AC cars, sitting in their AC houses,
22:23offices with air purifiers. What are the poor people going to do? If you compare the longest time,
22:30a poor person will definitely be breathing this air, this impure air. This is a matter of equality as well.
22:37We have really come to the end of this discussion. We certainly look forward to that discussion
22:41because that's the need of the hour. As we have been saying, Mimlendu Jha, Dr. Gupta, Bavia,
22:46I really appreciate your time. Thank you for joining us on this very important discussion.
22:50That's all from me. Thanks so much for watching.
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