- 6 weeks ago
A massive political war has erupted over the proposed Constitution Amendment Bill, which seeks to disqualify any Prime Minister, Chief Minister or minister if they are arrested for more than 30 days on serious criminal charges.
Category
đź—ž
NewsTranscript
00:00Political firestorm over criminal Neta's bill.
00:22Home Minister Back's bill calls it a blow to tainted politics.
00:30Home Minister Shah sticks to no bail, no office stand.
00:42Opposition doubles down, calls bill vindictive.
01:01Criminal Leta's bill showdown, that is our top focus on NewsTrack.
01:20Good evening, this is the NewsTrack with me, Maria Shaquille.
01:26Our top story, a fresh political flashpoint has erupted over what is being called criminal Neta bill.
01:34Days after a stormy showdown in the parliament, Home Minister Amit Shah came out strongly in defense of the proposed law
01:41that seeks to disqualify any Prime Minister, Chief Minister or Minister who spends over 30 days in jail on serious criminal charges.
01:51Declaring the country cannot be run from prisons, Home Minister Shah hit back at the opposition,
01:58pointing out that even the Prime Minister's office is included at the insistence of Prime Minister Modi himself.
02:05Citing his own resignation when charges were levelled against him, Shah accused the opposition of doublespeak,
02:14recalling how Rahul Gandhi once tore up an ordinance meant to shield convicted politicians.
02:21But the opposition isn't buying it.
02:24Arvind Kejdiwal, who served as Delhi Chief Minister while in jail,
02:27has rejected the proposal, while Congress leaders have called Shah's morality talk a farce.
02:34As both sides trade barbs, the big question remains, how important are reforms for clean politics?
02:42Today, we are being joined by India's top legal voice.
02:47Former Attorney General Mukul Rohadgi will be joining me shortly.
02:51But first, let's take a look at what happened today.
02:53After mega-showdown in Parliament, the political battle over anti-criminal Neta Bill has escalated sharply.
03:04Union Home Minister Amit Shah defended the proposed law that seeks to oust Prime Minister,
03:09Chief Ministers and Ministers held in custody for 30 consecutive days on serious criminal charges.
03:16Shah, in a hard-hit encounter, argued that the country cannot be run from jails,
03:21taking a direct swipe at opposition.
03:23I want to ask the whole country and the whole of the people of the people of the country,
03:29whether there is any government or any government or any government or any government
03:33can be run from jail in jail?
03:37When you have a government, a government has to go to jail in jail,
03:40one government has to go to jail in jail.
03:44There has been no use for 30 days.
03:46So now they will be a government.
03:47But they will be made of jail.
03:50Home Minister Shah cited his own example and said that he had himself quit after facing
03:56charges.
03:57Shah also hit out at Rahul Gandhi's shifting stance on morality.
04:01When the UPA was elected, Sri Manmohan Singh Ji was the Prime Minister and Lalu Prasad
04:09Ayadav Ji was the Minister.
04:14Amit Shah expressed confidence of getting the bill passed in Parliament and said that
04:32many opposition leaders will support the bill on moral grounds.
04:36But opposition parties are not buying it.
04:40Harvind Kejriwal, who spent 160 days in Tihar jail in liquor scam case and still served
04:46as Delhi Chief Minister, hit back at Amit Shah.
04:50Opposition called Shah's talk of morality a joke.
04:52As the debate continues, the question lingers. will this amendment safeguard governance or
04:58become a tool for political vendettas?
05:05Here are a report, India Today.
05:14And let me go straight to former Tony General and Senior Advocate of the Supreme Court, Mukul
05:22Rohadgi, who joins us live.
05:24Mr. Rohadgi, of course, there's a lot of political debate which is going on with regards to this bill, which is now before the Joint Parliamentary Committee.
05:44As a senior advocate, what are your thoughts on this legislation?
05:48Do you think it's draconian as the opposition is saying?
05:51Or are you of the opinion that the intent with which this bill is being brought in is certainly in the right direction
05:59because it is about the clean-up of the political class in general.
06:04See, Maria, my first impression is that the legislation is an attempt to clean up the politics and the politicians of this country.
06:18There are a large number of cases where politicians are in jail.
06:26And we saw in the case of Delhi that files were being signed in a jail or from a jail cell, etc.
06:34Now it is obvious that it is inconceivable that a government can be run from jail, that too, by an important minister or a chief minister.
06:45So, the law is welcome. And you know, the law only says that if a person is in custody for 30 days or more, he will lose his ministership.
07:01Well, once he gets bail, he may have a right to come back as a minister should the chief minister want him back.
07:09So, it's really a temporary kind of a situation. It's not a permanent situation like saying that if you are in custody for more than 30 days, you are damned forever and you can never be an MLA or you can never be a minister.
07:23That would be draconian. But this is only a temporary kind of a situation of 30 days or 40 days. There is too much hullabaloo about it.
07:33Okay.
07:34And I don't think that, I mean, it's like making a mountain out of a mollen.
07:39Okay. Mr. Rohudgi, the opposition says that there have been multiple instances of misuse of agencies, the enforcement directorate, the CBI.
07:48And if you look at this data, which essentially says that there have been 13 instances of sitting ministers being detained by either the ED or the CBI.
07:57And most of them have ended up spending 30 days in jail. So, this essentially looks at some kind of legislation which is being brought in to politically target opposition because it gives a lot of power to the executive and, you know, perhaps create some kind of anarchy in states to topple governments which have been democratically elected by the people.
08:25See, Maria, possibility of misuse does not make the law invalid. That is settled legal position. Now, if it is found that in some cases the ruling government is trying to put opposition ministers in jail, etc., well, then you have courts, don't you?
08:52You can go to court and the court grants you bail. All opposition ministers or MPs or MLAs have got bail. And if I may dare say, once this 30-day rule is there, it would be legitimate to tell the court concerned, which is hearing a bail petition, that ask the court to decide it at the earliest so that the deadline of 30 days is not crossed.
09:19I mean, it would, in fact, I mean, it would, in fact, I mean, it would, in fact, help a detainee in trying to get an early hearing as opposed to, you know, the bail taking a few months or six months or eight months.
09:31This would be a weapon in his hand to ask the court to look at it at the earliest so that he does not, you know, suffer the guillotine of 30 days.
09:42I think, I think that's the silver lining that one must look at.
09:46Of course, the intent here is that the government should not function out of jail.
09:51The administrative functioning should not happen out of jail.
09:55But, sir, isn't this legislation a bit too harsh?
09:58Because the premise has always been that you are innocent until proven guilty.
10:03And detention and conviction are two very different things.
10:06I agree with you, Maria, but the problem in our country is that a conviction takes 10 years.
10:16And the disqualification to stand in an election is also based on a conviction.
10:22So the other end of the spectrum is that it will take 10 or 20 years for a conviction.
10:27And then you can otherwise keep on, you know, being in active politics.
10:33That is also the other extreme.
10:34So you've got to find out some bi-media.
10:36I mean, I'm sure, you know, one could argue that 30 days would have become 60 days or 90 days.
10:42Maybe 90 days would have been more appropriate.
10:45But then you've got to draw this line somewhere.
10:48And 30 days by itself will not become illegal if the court feels that 60 or 90 is better.
10:55You know, you have to draw the line somewhere.
10:56And I mean, these are laws which are an attempt to clean up the system.
11:05Sometimes they may feel or look a little harsh.
11:08But of course, time will tell as in how they are interpreted and how they are put into use.
11:15And I mean, it can be changed later also.
11:18If it is found that it is acting absolutely harshly, parliament can change it.
11:23And also, please remember one thing.
11:26The law is there to stay unless it is changed.
11:30The current government is there till 2029.
11:34Who knows who will come in 2029?
11:36And if the opposition comes back and they, you know, try to get their back at the current
11:44ruling party, then the members of the ruling party will then face the brunt, no?
11:49It's not as if that the current government kind of will remain forever and ever.
11:54Governments have a tendency of change.
11:57In 5, 10, 15 years, governments change.
12:00So it's not as if it's only a one-way traffic.
12:02The same thing will come to bite them back.
12:05So that's how it is.
12:07Of course, you know, the government, as it presented the bill, it is saying that this
12:13is a significant reform aimed at curbing criminalization of politics.
12:17And if we were to look at the statement of reason, an object, a minister facing serious criminal
12:24charges if arrested and detained could undermine constitutional morality, principles of good
12:29governance, and erode the people's trust vested in him.
12:33But will this truly help in tackling the criminalization of politics, Mr. Rohadgi, given the high number
12:41of MPs and MLAs we have in the parliament and also in assemblies across the country who have
12:49criminal cases against them?
12:51See, Maria, according to me, having a law saying that only on conviction, an MP or an MLA
13:02is going to be disqualified, I think that is also too relaxed or lax a position.
13:11Keeping in view, as I told you, that a normal trial may take five or ten years, and then
13:17even a judgment of conviction can be, in rare circumstances, suspended by the higher court.
13:24And then you can jolly well carry on for 10, 20, or 25 years.
13:28According to me, keeping in view the long delays in our system and reaching the end of the road
13:34of conviction, taking so long, maybe one needs to look at the election law and find an intermediate
13:43point at which the disqualification will occur.
13:48It could well be framing of a charge, post a charge sheet by the competent court in an offense
13:58punishable with seven years or more, something like that, so that the taint of
14:04the disqualification or the fear of the law, I mean, if you are going to look only at
14:12a conviction after 10 years or 15 years, then there is no fear of the law.
14:17You know, everybody in this country violates traffic signals with impunity, but the same
14:23person who travels and goes abroad and drives a car in the US, he will dare not, you know,
14:29violate a traffic signal because of harsh and swift penalties.
14:34Therefore, you need to have the fear of the law.
14:37You need to have a relook at the whole system.
14:40Not only this law which is coming.
14:44These are all knee-jerk reactions.
14:46Look at revamping the entire criminal justice system where it can't take 10 years for a trial.
14:52You know, I think the debate should be more on the larger issues than only looking at this
14:58aspect of the law.
15:00Okay.
15:00Let me sum up this conversation with you, Mr. Rohadgi, with my last question.
15:06The opposition is saying that this bill distorts parliamentary democracy.
15:11You are of the opinion that there is a need for a larger debate.
15:15What are the key aspects do you think which should be debated?
15:17For me, the larger debate, as I said, is revamping the criminal justice system.
15:27The government has taken one step in that direction by revamping our criminal laws, procedural
15:34and substantive, by trying to bring in Indian notions of justice and criminality and crimes.
15:44Because we were following 150-year-old British notions of criminality.
15:49That is a welcome step.
15:51But that step has not really, in my humble opinion, addressed the point that the trials
15:58take an interminable long period of time.
16:01Our courts are clogged.
16:04I see it every day.
16:07And the real problem is that the prosecuting agency and the investigative agency is one and
16:14the same, namely the police.
16:16Imagine a police sub-inspector who is investigating a crime, who is also doing police duties, who
16:26is also writing a police diary, and he is also looking after the prosecution in the court by
16:35going to the prosecution counsel or the lawyer, getting the witnesses and trying to see that
16:41they are examined.
16:42You can't have three or four roles into one.
16:44In many countries, the roles are separate.
16:47So you have to start from that.
16:49You must have a separate prosecution agency specialized, a separate investigative agency specialized,
16:55and a normal police for policing affairs in the city or on the roads.
17:00You start with that, and then try and tell the court that we are swiftly investigating.
17:07I can tell you, Maria, that I am doing cases where investigation is not complete for 10 years, 12 years.
17:16If you can't complete investigation in 10, 12 years, you are going to start framing of a charge after 10 years.
17:26God knows how many witnesses are available, how many are alive, how many will remember what happened.
17:32So therefore, you know, it's a complete pitfall.
17:37You have to start from the beginning, strengthen up, shore up the system, and then only there will be some fear of the law.
17:43And then all these laws will fall into place.
17:47That's what you have to do.
17:49All right, Mr. Mukul Rohadgi, always a pleasure speaking to you, sir.
17:52Thank you for speaking to India today.
17:55And joining me now is Dr. Syed Zafar Islam, national spokesperson of the BJP.
18:00Dr. Joy Kumar is representing the Congress.
18:03Zafar Islam, the opposition has a number of questions.
18:07A number of these parties are also boycotting the JPC.
18:10Then what purpose will a JPC really serve?
18:18Well, Maria, let me tell you a few things which is very, very important for everyone to understand.
18:26The opposition wants that this bill is not needed.
18:30Why?
18:30Because they feel that somebody can run the government from behind the prison.
18:34I think it is not a badge of honor for any politician to run the government from the prison cell.
18:44It's a mockery of democracy.
18:47And they do not understand that.
18:48If a Sarpanch can't sign a check, how the earth a prime minister, a chief minister, or for that matter, a minister can sign a bill
18:58or decide on policies from the prison cell.
19:03When these people say, the opposition leaders, I have heard many people, they say that it's a vendetta politics.
19:09They say it's a weapon to silence the opposition.
19:13But I feel rather, I would say that the common man on the street feels that it's a perfect vaccine for clearing criminal and crime from politics.
19:26And it's a preventive dose of vaccine basically will ensure, Maria, infection from the infection of corruption and the disease of impunity from politics.
19:39And I think it's important because this law applies to all equally.
19:45As the senior advocate, Rauta Kinji, was saying that this law is not only for opposition, but it is for the government.
19:54It's for all the politicians who is sitting on the constitutional chair.
19:58Dr. Ajay Kumar, when we look at this vaccine, as Zafar Islam puts it, you also wanted a similar vaccine when Arvind Kejriwal was governing Delhi from Tihar Jail.
20:13So now this will ensure that, a vaccine of this nature will ensure that, you know, nobody governs a state from jail.
20:23I mean, something which is absolutely unacceptable.
20:27So, Maria, first question is, give me a little more time on this.
20:33This is medicine practiced by the Nazi doctor called Dr. Mengele.
20:39He cut the limbs of children.
20:41He cut the head.
20:42So let's not misuse vaccine and all.
20:45The BJP is like a Nazi doctor.
20:47I was hearing Mr. Mukul Rothki, and I'll just give you a perspective.
20:54Since rapists will, to convict a rapist will take you 10 years, so we might as well kill them before they become, get convicted.
21:00That's what his logic was.
21:01The judicial system takes time.
21:03He's a great lawyer.
21:03But I'm just saying, look at this kind of perfidity or nonsense we're, you know, peddling out today on this issue.
21:11Let's start with political.
21:12They brought this to avoid vote surety, and I'll tell you why.
21:16It's a constitutional amendment.
21:19They're not sincere.
21:20First of all, this nonsense about sincerity.
21:22You need two-thirds majority.
21:25They bought it to divert.
21:28That is it.
21:28So politically, they brought it to divert for vote surety.
21:31They have no intention.
21:32If they have intention, Maria, in 2013, why didn't they support the Lokpal Bill?
21:36The Prime Minister's office was under the Lokpal Bill.
21:39They will not tell you.
21:40They will not tell you Himal Biswas Sarma and Ashok Chawan and everybody else.
21:44They brought them into party cases.
21:46We dropped Ajit Pawar.
21:47They will not tell you that 171 ED cases in five years, 95% opposition.
21:52They will not tell you out of 500 opposition leaders who have ED and their central agencies
22:00have been misused, 170 have taken ticket and one from the BJP.
22:06They will not tell you.
22:07Okay, what is this cleaning and all?
22:09The Prime Minister wants to divert from vote surety, but they don't have the numbers,
22:13so they have no intention of passing it.
22:15You tell me, Maria, I'm bringing a law.
22:17I know I can't pass it.
22:18Okay, I don't have the numbers.
22:20It's a constitutional amendment.
22:21The most important thing, if they were sincere, they would have made, they would have brought
22:28the National Police Commission report.
22:30They would have implemented police independence.
22:32They would have brought ED into an autonomous institution.
22:36They would have made CBI into an autonomous institution.
22:40And despite EC being autonomous, if they're still, is behaving like the BJP's election department,
22:47despite being autonomous.
22:48These are rules and regulations.
22:51I didn't want to say Putin, so I will say Stalin.
22:53But, Joy Kumar, you also faced similar charge of misuse of agencies.
22:57Absolutely.
22:57The caged parrot comment which came from the Apex Court.
23:01I agree with you.
23:03Are you talking about making India better so this pseudo-nationalist?
23:08I agree with you that there has been every government, whether it is ours or theirs, have at one time or the other.
23:15We are in 22, 2025.
23:17And I am saying, what is this kind of argument, Mr. Rothergi?
23:21He is a learned man and I respect him.
23:23But courts take time.
23:25So, a dowry, that person who was arrested in NOIDA, court will take six years to convert him.
23:31So, let's bump him off tomorrow.
23:32Is that what we want India to be?
23:33Dr. Afar Islam, respond to that.
23:35See, from their perspective, the temple of democracy is Tenjanpath, from where the descent came and they draw strength from Tenjanpath.
23:49But, let me tell you very clearly, the temple of democracy is the parliament and the policy has to be decided from the front bench of parliament and not the backsell of prison, Mr. Dr. Ajay.
24:02You have to understand that the expectation of people is very different from what you preach and what you practice.
24:10What it upholds, you have to understand what this bill upholds.
24:14It upholds the dignity of office, which is important, which is important for you to come across as somebody clean in the eyes of the people of this great country.
24:24It ensures that the democratic process are followed.
24:27And if you don't want to do that, then, of course, you will challenge this bill or you will make this kind of a statement or play a victim card that it's a vendetta polities.
24:37It is not. If you commit a crime, you will have the recourse. Within 30 days, you can get a bill. If the allegation is frivolous, you can get a bill within 30 days, walk free.
24:50And, again, it's not a permanent, you can't relinquish, you need not relinquish permanently.
24:59But you can come back and assume the office after 30 days. But what you want, basically, is that you want disruption.
25:06See, in democracy, disagreement is important. And we understand. And we must appreciate.
25:14There could be different voices. And you can differ with me. But disruption is not.
25:19By not being part of the JPC, by not being part of the debate, is basically you're disrupting the democratic process.
25:25Okay, let me give you the last word. Dr. Joy Kumar, be part of the consultative process.
25:30If you have objections, raise it. If it is about 30 days that you think it's perhaps less, then get it increased.
25:38But there has to be a process of consultation. That's what democracy and parliamentary democracy is known for.
25:45So let me disabuse you of certain things. Blacks were not allowed to drink from particular water.
25:52South Africa, in North America, in South Africa. That was a law, Maria. It was a law.
25:59And you are telling the blacks to go and talk to the white supremacists and say that,
26:03let us have a law which will allow me to drink between 4 p.m. to 2 p.m.
26:06What nonsense are we talking? You bring in a most... Let me... Yeah, relax.
26:11I never thought, you know, I know these guys. By the way, Zafar, you take instruction from Nagpur and please accept that.
26:18Okay, so Nagpur is your God, your, what you call your moral conscience and democratic conscience and all that.
26:24Only RSS. So RSS, one second, I didn't interrupt you. Relax. I didn't interrupt you. Please give me time.
26:30I think, I know it stinks. When the dose is administered, it does this thing. And you can feel the pinch.
26:38Why are you guys so badly BSP? I don't interrupt you. When the dose is administered, it does this thing. You feel the pinch.
26:45Let him finish his point, please. Let him finish his point, please. Let him finish his point. Let's extend that person.
26:48Very badly BSP for always. Okay, so let me tell you something. Putin. Putin arrested Navalny. He was a democrat. He died.
26:57And you say that that is justified. You tell me if Navalny died fighting for democracy in the most illegal way.
27:06And then these guys bring the law. This is only to divert attention. They don't have the numbers.
27:13Why should we attend something which is fraudulent? They brought it only to remove vote chori.
27:18Okay. All right, Dr. Joy Kumar and Dr. Zafar Islam, thank you for joining us on NewsTrack tonight.
27:24We are putting out this entire discussion on the website and also on our YouTube channel.
27:29Thanks so much for watching and I'll be seeing you tomorrow.
Recommended
12:25
|
Up next
25:00
Be the first to comment