- 7 weeks ago
This episode of "India First" focusses on the significant proceedings in Lok Sabha following Union Home Minister Amit Shah's introduction of the 130th Constitution Amendment Bill, 2025.
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00:00Good evening, there was massive ruckus in Lok Sabha this afternoon as the Union Home Minister Amit Shah tabled the 130th Constitution Amendment Bill 2025.
00:13So what does this bill propose to do?
00:15This bill talks about removing the Prime Minister or Chief Ministers facing serious charges including charges of corruption if detained in prison for over 30 consecutive days in offences with a prison term of at least 5 years.
00:35The opposition is up in arms. The opposition says this step is draconian, it's dictatorial, it's anti-democracy and aimed only at targeting the opposition.
00:49Sonsad showdown on criminal Neta's bill.
01:13Modi Sarkar's bid to clean up system.
01:19Sankh Rajya Chetra Shasana Adiniam, 1963, is a manjuri di ga.
01:33Opposition MPs slam draconian bill.
01:36We are going back to medieval times when the king could just remove anybody at will.
01:43There's no concept of what an elected person is.
01:46Put a case and then democratically elected person is wiped out.
01:51This amendment would leave the minister and CM at the mercy of executive agencies.
01:55Centres, new bills, fair or flawed.
01:59The big focus on India first.
02:01The government of course insists that the character and conduct of ministers should be beyond any ray of suspicion.
02:12A minister in custody may thwart constitutional morality, good governance and diminish public trust.
02:19But is there merit in the opposition insisting that the bill is draconian, it's dictatorial, it's anti-democracy, it's targeting the opposition and India is going back to the medieval times.
02:34Autocracy.
02:35Autocracy.
02:36The king will decide who will serve and who will not.
02:39In fact, look at those images in parliament.
02:42Papers were torn and flung at the union home minister.
02:45And two union ministers, including Kiran Rijiju, parliamentary affairs minister, had to shield the home minister.
02:51They're of course in the eye of a storm.
02:53Opposition MPs are saying ministers were high handed.
02:56We'll get you the inside story.
02:57We'll get you all sides of the story here on India first.
03:01I'm Gaurav Savant.
03:02As always, let's get started.
03:04There was high drama in Lok Sabha as Union Home Minister Amit Shah rose to table the 130th Constitution Amendment Bill, Governance of Union Territories Amendment Bill 2025 and the Jammu and Kashmir Reorganization Amendment Bill.
03:18But the purpose is to mandate the removal of the prime minister, chief ministers and ministers if arrested and detained for more than 30 consecutive days in offences with a five year imprisonment or more.
03:34Amit Shah insists it's a bid to have clean governance.
03:39The opposition says this bill is actually against the federal structure, is aimed at destabilizing non-NDA governments, takes India back to medieval times and converts India into a police state.
03:55That's the aim. Take a look.
04:01The defining visual of the day's unprecedented, unparliamentary showdown.
04:06Paper balls hurled at home minister as opposition benches erupted in jeers.
04:14It began after Amit Shah introduced three explosive bills, which if passed could see even the prime minister, a chief minister or any minister ousted after 30 days in jail even without conviction.
04:28The outcome, Lok Sabah turned into a political battlefield.
04:50As Shah presented the bills, opposition MPs surrounded the treasury benches, switched off his mic and hurled tone bill copies at him, while BJP MPs like Ravneet Bittu and Kiran Rijiju tried to intervene.
05:05Can I ask a question to the honourable home minister?
05:08When he was the home minister of Gujarat, he had been arrested.
05:13In a total ofoting foreign violence after 60 days, what if he got killed?
05:16He ran into the foreign minister and has been arrested.
05:18He was arrested.
05:20He was arrested.
05:23He was arrested after the election.
05:24And he was arrested.
05:26He was arrested.
05:27And the perpetrator than the Cold War is a real.
05:31TMC alleged BJP MPs pushed female MPs.
06:01Riju and Riju came in front of me, and all the people came in front of me, and all the people came in front of me.
06:19But sources told India today that CCTV shows no pushing or shoving.
06:24No action so far against opposition MPs, though they tore and flung bill copies.
06:31The heart of the political storm is Constitution's 130th Amendment Bill.
06:36It says any prime minister, chief minister or minister jailed for 30 straight days will automatically lose office on the 31st day, even without conviction, on offences with five-year terms or more.
06:50They can, however, be reappointed once released.
06:54The government argues it simply brings politicians on par with civil servants who are suspended the moment they are arrested.
07:05Home Minister Amitsha has clarified the bill will first be vetted by a parliamentary committee.
07:10But the opposition fears misused to topple state governments.
07:14AIMIM even comparing it to Nazi Germany's Gestapo, warning it could turn India into a police state.
07:22We are going back to medieval times when the king could just remove anybody at will.
07:29There is no concept of what an elected person is.
07:32He doesn't like your face, so he tells ED, put a case, and then democratically elected person is wiped out within 30 days.
07:43This is new.
07:44Now this would empower, this bill would empower the unelected executive bureaucracy to play the role of legislature.
07:51Sir, it undermines representative, parliament, democracy.
07:54This amendment would leave the minister and CM at the mercy of executive agency.
07:59With the battle lines clearly drawn, the question remains, is this a draconian bill or a much-needed reform?
08:06With Maasami Singh, Euro Report, India Today.
08:14So you saw this high drama in Lok Sabha as Union Home Minister Amitsha tabled the 130th Amendment Bill.
08:20Papers were flung at him.
08:21They were torn.
08:22Opposition leaders rushed into the well of the house.
08:24BJP MPs had to physically form a human shield around Amitsha.
08:29Opposition leaders, meanwhile, allege that BJP MPs misbehaved with opposition MPs
08:35and including some women MPs of the Thirmul Congress.
08:38So the battle, as you saw, was really intense.
08:40But is this a bill to clean governance?
08:44Or is this draconian?
08:46Is this anti-democracy?
08:48Joining me on India first is Sayyad Zafar Islam, national spokesperson of the BJP.
08:51Advocate Arshdeep Kadhyal represents the Congress Party, national spokesperson of the Congress.
08:57Kapil Madan will give us legal perspective.
08:59He joins us.
09:00He's a Supreme Court advocate.
09:02As is Jai Ananta Dehad Rai.
09:04Both practicing advocates in the Supreme Court.
09:06Deshra Tan Nigam is not only a political analyst but also an advocate.
09:11So we have a political panel.
09:12We have a legal panel to get you both sides of the story.
09:16Arshdeep Kadhyal, why oppose the bill that aims to bring clean governance according to the government
09:23and that seeks to automatically remove leaders after 30 days.
09:28If they've been in jail for more than 30 days facing serious charges.
09:33Why oppose this bill?
09:35Thank you for the question.
09:38First and foremost, the bill is undemocratic and unconstitutional at the face of it.
09:44It is against the separation of powers and the Bhatia Janta Party has tried to convert India into a police state.
09:50First and foremost, the timing.
09:52Look at the timing of it.
09:53They introduced this when there were only two days left for the session to get over.
09:58So that there is less criticism, there is less opposition.
10:01Number two, we have all seen how the Bhatia Janta Party is accustomed to misusing the agencies, the IT, the ED, the CBI.
10:10And how 95% of the opposition parties have been targeted.
10:13So basically, if they register a false case against the opposition leader, he would be removed from the office.
10:20A person that has been put into the office by the mandate of the people, by the vote of the people.
10:25How can it be removed from the office at the whims and fancies of the Bhatia Janta Party?
10:30Number two, it is not for the Bhatia Janta Party to be the judge, jury and executioner.
10:35It is not for you to decide.
10:36It is for the judiciary to decide.
10:38And number two, there is a procedure.
10:40Now, one question is to the Bhatia Janta Party.
10:43Let's say…
10:44Sir, let's take this step by step.
10:46You've raised three very pertinent points.
10:48Let's take this step by step.
10:49You've raised very pertinent points.
10:51Timing you've raised.
10:52No, timing.
10:53Timing is important.
10:54You've raised timing.
10:55Converting India into a police state.
10:57And three, BJP cannot decide when people have elected a leader, how can BJP remove them?
11:03So three points you've raised.
11:04One very important point.
11:05I'll come back to you.
11:06I'll come back to you.
11:07Syed Zafar Islam, let him answer these three.
11:11I'm coming back to you for a second time.
11:13Let's quickly move…
11:14Five points you'll give me and then he'll respond for five minutes.
11:18Syed Zafar Islam, respond to these three specific points that are being made.
11:21In fact, Priyanka Gandhi Wadra says this bill is draconian.
11:24You'll put any kind of a case on any Chief Minister.
11:27Have the Chief Minister arrested for 30 days without conviction.
11:30It's unconstitutional, undemocratic, unfortunate.
11:34Respond even on the timing, sir.
11:36First of all, those political parties who do not want crime and criminals to be cleaned
11:48or go out of the political system are the ones who will make hue and cry and Congress
11:55party happens to be one of them.
11:57And all the opposition parties, in fact, put together, they do not want to clean the system.
12:01In fact, the Honorable Prime Minister has always advocated that there is no place for criminals
12:10in political space.
12:12And this is one initiative where the criminals will be out of the political system.
12:19Having said that, they have the red dresser.
12:22They can go back to…
12:23If they have committed…
12:24First, they have committed crime.
12:26If they are put behind the bar, then they have the recourse, go to court, session court,
12:35or high court or supreme court and get the bail.
12:38If they are able to get the bail within 30 days, they can continue to be what they are,
12:42whether it's a CM or a minister or the prime minister.
12:45But if they do not get on the 31st day, then obviously automatically they will be removed from the position,
12:52purely because the people of India wants that criminal should be kept out of the political system.
13:00And people of India will appreciate this initiative because they want that they feel,
13:05a common man on the street always feels that political aadmi ko haath nahi laga sakte hai.
13:11But this bill will ensure that a common man on the street will say that there is a law for everyone,
13:16be it prime minister, be it chief minister, be it the minister or be it anybody.
13:20But the law is to offer anyone.
13:23What I have just wanted to answer the question, sir.
13:26What last sentence?
13:27Last sentence.
13:28Okay.
13:29Last sentence.
13:30Okay.
13:31They have…
13:32They can come back even if 31st day they don't get the bail.
13:35Then they…
13:36If they get the bail after two months, like for instance, I will give you one example.
13:41Lehman Soren.
13:42Then he got the bail.
13:43He was…
13:44He resigned before the…
13:45Before he went to the jail.
13:48And after he came back after three, four months, he…
13:51He again became chief minister of…
13:54Okay.
13:55Arsteep Kadiyal, you want to quickly respond to this couple?
13:57Madan wants to come in but go on.
13:58Because of…
13:59Because of…
14:00Because of…
14:01Because of…
14:02Because of…
14:03Because of…
14:04Because of…
14:05Because of…
14:06Because of…
14:07Because of…
14:08Because of…
14:09Because of…
14:10Let's say a person has been removed from the office.
14:13And subsequently, he is found innocent during investigation.
14:16No, no.
14:17I am saying that…
14:18What then?
14:19If a person is acquitted, what then?
14:21My question to the Bhati Janta party is this.
14:23Please listen to it.
14:24It's a very important question.
14:25He can come back.
14:26Let's say you have removed someone from the office.
14:27He can come back and join.
14:28After that…
14:29After that, during investigation, that person is found innocent.
14:31No.
14:32I do not remove it.
14:33It is…
14:34It is the law of the land.
14:35What then?
14:36It is the law of the land which will ensure that he is out of the political system and…
14:39ensure that he gets some comfort or relief from the court.
14:44Okay.
14:45Please.
14:46The court has to decide.
14:47Not Bhati Janta party or the government.
14:49It is not the other way around.
14:51It is not guilty until proven guilty.
14:52Let me…
14:53Let me bring in legal voices.
14:54He is an advocate.
14:55Let me bring in legal voices.
14:56No, no, no.
14:57He is an advocate.
14:58Let me remind him one thing.
14:59He is an advocate.
15:00He is an advocate.
15:01No, no.
15:02He is an advocate.
15:03Let me ask him one question.
15:04Kapil Madan.
15:05Let me ask him.
15:06Kapil Madan.
15:07He has the maximum number of elected leaders.
15:09No, no.
15:10No, no.
15:11Whoever aspirates…
15:12So, both of you speaking simultaneously.
15:14Gentlemen, nobody will be able to hear a word.
15:17So, can I just bring in Jay Anand, Dehad Rai and Kapil Madan for a legal perspective.
15:23Jay, Manish Tiwari has called this bill squarely destructive.
15:29Indian constitution, he rightly points out, says there should be rule of law and that you are innocent until proven guilty.
15:37This bill will change that.
15:40It will make the executive agency, you know, the CBI, the ED, they will become the bosses of the political masters including the prime minister.
15:50I got a good evening.
15:51Jay.
15:52I very respectfully disagree with Manish Tiwari.
15:54He is a very fine lawyer.
15:55But I think he has gotten it completely wrong this time.
15:57And I will tell you why very precisely.
15:59This constitutional amendment essentially seeks to tweak the conditions of appointment of three provisions of the constitution.
16:08So, you have 75, you have the equivalent 164 for the council of ministers and then for Delhi the special provision 239-AA.
16:17Now, all it says is to preserve good governance and to ensure that there is no difficulty in executive day-to-day management.
16:25For that purpose alone, if a person is taken into custody, if it is a serious offence, one at least five years or more,
16:32then after the 30th day of incarceration, the person automatically has to step aside.
16:38And I think this was needed.
16:39There was a massive constitutional vacuum.
16:41This provision was not there in our constitution.
16:44And it's a very good thing that it has come.
16:46I don't for the life of me understand why anyone should oppose it.
16:49For the reason that our judiciary, all of us agree whether we are on, no matter which side of the political spectrum we might be,
16:58that our judiciary is absolutely independent.
17:01It has unimpeachable integrity.
17:03So, now two things very quickly.
17:05One, bail is always available to a person who has been incarcerated no matter what the offence is, number one.
17:11Number two, there is another very important provision which is quashing in the old CRPC 482 in the new one 528.
17:19And you always have, if it is a bogus case, and I quite agree with my friend who is appearing,
17:24the very eloquent speaker from the Congress party.
17:26If it is a bogus case that the ED has filed, and yes, the ED has a rather dismal rate of conviction.
17:33That's the point I was coming to, sir.
17:35If it is a bogus case, anybody is free to go to the courts, to a constitutional court and say that, look, quash the case.
17:42It is bogus.
17:43But sir, there are times when process becomes the punishment.
17:47Process is the punishment.
17:49You end up being in jail for more than 30 days.
17:51I do not want to add one thing.
17:52Gaurav, may I just add one thing with your permission very quickly.
17:55Go ahead, sir.
17:56There is a proviso, very important proviso to the constitutional amendment that I think you alluded to as well, in fact, when you opened the segment.
18:03And you pointed out to it, you said, look, the moment you come out, you get your bail, nothing prevents you from coming back and holding that position again.
18:10So, there is, I don't see anything particularly dastardly or sinister with this amendment.
18:15It is only to ensure that a Kejriwal-like situation doesn't arise again.
18:18The national capital is going to the dogs.
18:21The chief minister is sitting in prison, can't sign files.
18:25The entire citizenry of Delhi was suffering at that time.
18:28And I want to give you one quick example.
18:29Okay.
18:30Senthil Balaji from Tamil Nadu.
18:31Supreme Court said, look, you can come back once you've sort of, you know, you've gotten your bail.
18:36Or you resigned when he had to go back and his bail was taken away.
18:38Yes.
18:39Fair enough.
18:40There's no place for it.
18:41So, Kapil Madan, respond, there's a vacuum and that vacuum is now being filled.
18:46According to Jai, there's nothing sinister in the government's attempt.
18:51So, you know, Gaurav, allow me to say and, you know, I will say it with, you know, utmost humility and, you know, respect for my good friend Jai Anand.
18:59That today his, you know, opening statement looks like, you know, half facts and full fiction and allow me to give the reasons, logical reasons why I say so.
19:08So, if you look at the way this particular bill has been drafted, it goes against the elementary ethos of our criminal jurisprudence, which says you are presumed to be innocent until proven guilty.
19:24That's our constitutional mandate.
19:26Now, what happens now is now you are giving powers to investigating agencies who can now be used as an instrument to topple an elected government or an elected representative of the state.
19:41And we all know how agencies function in so far as, you know, the police is concerned.
19:47It's a state subject.
19:48It comes under the concerned state government.
19:51If you talk about central agencies, they work under the control of the central government.
19:56But allow me to give you another logical reason why.
19:59If you look at the threshold, the threshold of the offense that they have picked, they have picked five years.
20:06If you again look at the judgments on our criminal jurisprudence, seven years and below seven years are the offenses which are considered to be less heinous.
20:16There are special provisions.
20:17There are judgments that says if someone is accused for an offense which is punishable up to seven years, he cannot be arrested unless you have given him a notice which earlier used to be 41 ACRPC.
20:33Now, under the new act, that is 35 BNSS.
20:36Why the court has said that, the essential reason why the court says is that because if the offense is punishable with less than seven years of imprisonment, it is generally considered not very heinous.
20:49Now, imagine a situation like this.
20:51Let me give you another perspective.
20:54My good friend made Arvind Kejriwal's example who was arrested in ED's case.
20:58Let me give you how ED functions and he would, you know, agree with me.
21:01Now, insofar as our constitutional, you know, criminal jurisprudence on PMLA, now there is a judgment that says that the accused who is arrested, he will not be given a copy of the ECIR.
21:14And until I analyze, he shows to the court that he is not guilty or he has not committed that offense, he will not be granted bill.
21:24Now, imagine a situation, ED goes, picks up an elected representative.
21:28But hasn't that been modified to an extent by the Supreme Court?
21:31No, not yet.
21:32You know, those stringent sections.
21:34But, you know, I have to keep this ball rolling and I want to bring in points and Jai processes the punishment is the point that's repeatedly being made.
21:41I'll respond very quickly.
21:42So, the accused will be in jail for 30 days plus, will lose being Chief Minister or Minister and timing is very critical.
21:48If at a critical time, the Chief Minister is not in office, even if he or she comes back later, the case is lost.
21:54You make an excellent point, but I'll respond very quickly.
21:56What my friend is saying is not accurate at all.
21:58The amendment does not say that there has to be conviction or acquittal.
22:02It only talks about incarceration because that person is then said to be incapacitated from office.
22:07That's even more dangerous.
22:08That's even more dangerous.
22:09I didn't interrupt you, sir.
22:10If you don't mind, I waited my turn.
22:12You don't mind.
22:13That's even more dangerous.
22:14Hear me out.
22:15Hear me out.
22:16You can respond to whatever I'm saying then once you've heard me out.
22:18It is not even more dangerous.
22:19The same service conditions apply also to bureaucrats.
22:22Let's also not forget that.
22:23I do not want a Chief Minister or a Minister or for that matter even a Prime Minister who is sitting inside prison and then insists on creating a morass in government that nothing moves, that everything stops.
22:34Why?
22:35Because his or her ego will prevent them from signing or handing over authority to somebody else, as we saw in the case of Kejriwal, which is why I took that example.
22:45Aatishi Marlena, I can never forget that visual, had put an empty chair next to her and said,
22:50Here, Kejriwal will sit.
22:52And she sat next to him like a puppet Chief Minister.
22:54I don't want that situation.
22:55And more importantly, Gaurav, one very important point which everybody has missed.
22:59Being democratically elected does not grant immunity to any person to go and commit a crime.
23:04I am shocked that my friend says that there should be a threshold of seven and above and seven and less is not heinous enough.
23:09Do I want a person who is charged with corruption or charged with money laundering?
23:13Absolutely not.
23:14According to me, that is equally heinous or even more heinous than other offences if you ask me.
23:18I want a person with purity.
23:19I want a person with purity, constitutional morality demand that a person in public office hold public trust.
23:26Okay.
23:27Deshwatan Nagam, I want you to come in.
23:29I want you to come in before I bring in Sayyid Zafar Islam and Mr. Kadiyal.
23:34The point is, Deshwatan Nagam, while you say a person, if he is in jail, he or she for more than 30 days automatically debarred for that period from holding office.
23:45When you get bail, you come back and you are in office again.
23:48One.
23:49The timing.
23:50Two.
23:51The process becomes the punishment for an individual.
23:54Isn't this draconian?
23:55Because you should be innocent until proven guilty.
23:59You may get, you know, bail from a superior court.
24:02But in all of that, you've lost out.
24:04The people have lost out electing a person to high office.
24:07You're on mute, sir.
24:12Gaurav, in fact, the timing issue that people are talking about timing of the bill, this has been referred to JPC.
24:22So that issue is nullified now.
24:24This will be, you know, discussed and all the members of the Raj Sabha and the Lok Sabha who are members will discuss this and all the parties will have their, you know, eminent people discussing it.
24:36So timing is no more relevant now.
24:38Secondly, process becoming punishment.
24:41Who stops anybody who is arrested to move a bail application on the first day itself?
24:46But until he has a copy of the FIR, until he has legal documents, how can he move bail, sir?
24:51See, they have to be provided with.
24:54They have to be provided with.
24:56These are the facts and the issues that need to be discussed.
24:59Nobody prevents anybody to, you know, go to the court right on the first day, second day, third day, and utilize the process right up to the Supreme Court so that 30 days period does not lapse.
25:10So these are the, you know, checks and balances which are already available itself in this.
25:15We have to see what are the rules and which will be framed therein, particularly with respect to that.
25:22On that point, can I just add one thing?
25:23Anticipatory bail, the moment you have an anticipation, you anticipate some sort of incarceration, you can move for bail.
25:30That itself is, I was coming to that point because that anticipatory bail is always available to you.
25:35That if you think police is going to take an action, you file an anticipatory bail, notice is issued to the police.
25:41Police has to come forward and tell, is there any case against this person?
25:44If it is not, he cannot be arrested, you know.
25:47Arshdeep Kadiyal wants to come in and respond on that aspect.
25:50And you must, sir, because if the government says that their aim…
25:54Can I also come in one minute, one second.
25:58Okay, sir, you want to quickly complete…
26:00Mr. Kadiyal, just give me 30 seconds for Mr. Nigam to complete his point.
26:03See, see, see the fact remains, see the fact remains being a political analyst as well.
26:08This is the only government which has brought its entire cabinet including Prime Minister under this Act.
26:13And most of the chief ministers in India are also BJP.
26:18They have brought them also within the net.
26:20So this cannot be discriminatory if the existing governments are bringing themselves in.
26:25And you have the judicial process as was pointed toward others.
26:28You can always have the judicial process.
26:30And another point, misuse.
26:32If misuse, a possible misuse is the issue, then I don't think any act in this country can survive.
26:38Every act in this country, the Dowry Act or IPC in the past have been misused.
26:44For that, you have the judiciary to take care of.
26:47I want to bring in Mr. Kadiyal to respond to this because the government reasoning is that the character and conduct of ministers should be beyond any ray of suspicion.
26:56A minister in custody, government says, may thwart constitutional morality, good governance and diminish public trust.
27:05So is that logic flawed?
27:07And if you have a problem, go to courts and get bail is the point that the government seems to be making, sir.
27:12Gaurav, I did not interrupt anyone.
27:14I hope I will not be interrupted.
27:15And in case I am, the person would be muted.
27:18Number one, sir.
27:19See, I will give you an example.
27:20Let's say a person has been removed from the office.
27:23After that, during investigation, he is found innocent.
27:26What then?
27:27Let's say a person has been removed from the office and later on he is acquitted.
27:31In this scenario, in this case, they would have punished an innocent person.
27:35And he would have heard the famous saying, you can let a hundred guilty person off the hook, but not a single innocent should be punished.
27:42What of that?
27:43And number three, the gentleman saying that the prime minister is also under the ambit of it.
27:47The union ministers are also under the ambit of it.
27:49Give me one example wherein any member, any leader of the Bharti Janta party has even a single EDK spending.
27:55Give me one example.
27:56There is none.
27:57And 95% of the opposition parties have been targeted.
28:00Talk of M.K. Stalin, Sharad Pawar, Chenanji, Cheninji, Abhishek Banerji.
28:05Talk of all the political parties that are in the opposition.
28:07All of them have been targeted.
28:08The reason as to why we have judiciary is because there is Chalan.
28:11Charges framed, evidence done, arguments done.
28:13The moment he completes, I am coming to you, sir.
28:15Then, see, first Chalan is presented, charges are framed, evidence is done, arguments are done.
28:20Then a conclusion is reached upon by the judiciary, by the court.
28:23Who is the Bharti Janta party to decide who is guilty and who is not?
28:26However, bail is not when the case ends, sir.
28:31I mean, you know law.
28:33Bail is granted much, can be granted much earlier.
28:36However, the point that you raise…
28:37One second.
28:38Is it a given?
28:39There are many… I will give you one more example.
28:41There are many…
28:42Okay, one by one.
28:43One by one.
28:44One last point.
28:45The point that you raise is very critical.
28:46And I want Sayyad Zafar Islam to respond.
28:47There are many stringent sections wherein bail is very hard to get.
28:50Bail is very difficult to get.
28:51Absolutely.
28:52And listen to you.
28:53But Sayyad Zafar Islam, take my question.
28:55Abhishek Manu Singhvi argues this is the best way to destabilize opposition governments
29:04and unleash what he terms are biased central agencies, whether it's the enforcement
29:10directorate, the CBI or income tax department.
29:12The point that Mr. Kadyal raises also raises saying no ruling party chief minister or leader
29:17is touched.
29:18It's aimed to take down the opposition, sir.
29:21Give me one BJP leader who has an EDK spending.
29:25Okay, Sayyad Zafar Islam.
29:27Please do not speak in between.
29:30When you expect other people not to speak, you should not interrupt as well.
29:33Darning for me, sir.
29:34Let me tell you, Gaurav, first of all, first of all, that ask a common man in the street
29:43whether they want a government to be run by somebody who is behind the bar, who is sitting
29:48in jail, in the prison.
29:50It is all of them are lawyers except me on the panel, me and you.
29:55But tell me, what was the observation of the Supreme Court when it comes to Kejriwal?
30:00The Supreme Court observed there is a vacuum because there is no such law exists where he
30:07can be forced to resign.
30:09And he continued to serve as a chief minister despite being inside the prison.
30:14So, I think it is important.
30:16Had Kejriwal resigned at that time, perhaps today this will wouldn't have been introduced.
30:21But people expect Delhi was suffering because the chief minister still continues to be chief
30:26minister despite being in the prison, that situation should not arise because the people
30:31are there to serve, not to serve their own interests, serve the people.
30:34And that is why he has wanted to introduce this thing because the Supreme Court has also observed
30:39that there was a vacuum of this such a report.
30:42Okay, one by one, sir.
30:43Please do not speak in between.
30:45No, I will not let you speak, Gauravwal.
30:48Sir, Mr. Kadyal, let him complete.
30:49I will come to you.
30:50No, I will not let you speak.
30:51If you will speak like this, interrupt me time and again, I will.
30:54You kept on interrupting me.
30:55Sir, a second thing.
30:56See, there are many people within the government as well as within the opposition who have went
31:05through, experienced such things like, for instance, the Honorable Home Minister himself.
31:10And he made a statement inside the parliament, on the floor of the parliament that when he
31:14was summoned, he was summoned, at that time he resigned.
31:17Okay.
31:18And he didn't assume any constitutional position till he was absolutely free legally.
31:23Though, the second example I said about the Jharkhand chief minister, Hemant Soren.
31:32Sure, that point you've made.
31:33But there are several leaders who have been let off, who were subsequently found innocent.
31:39No, no, no.
31:40Who are trying to protect Lalu Yado.
31:41It is the Congress party when Rahul Gandhi had toned this ordinance.
31:46And today, Rahul Gandhi is sitting on the lap of Lalu Pasad who is a complicated man.
31:51As for India, BJP has maximum criminal cases pending again.
31:59Okay.
32:00But let me, let me for a moment bring in, let me for a moment.
32:03Let me for a moment bring in, bring in, bring in Kapil Madan, only Kapil Madan for a moment.
32:08If you want the politics to be clear.
32:09Kapil Madan and Jayanand Dehadra in just a moment because both of you must come in on the legal aspect of it.
32:14Right, right.
32:15Is there merit, is there merit in the government or the BJP saying it's corruption or backing corruption that leads to the opposition opposing a bill calling it draconian?
32:28Because why would anybody want a chief minister or a minister operating from inside prison?
32:34Won't it lead to not just a governance but an ethical crisis too, sir?
32:39Gaurav, let me, let me, you know, again say it's not about the intention.
32:43It's more about using this as a tool, as an instrument of oppression.
32:47And let me give you a very practical example.
32:49We saw Bridge Bhushan Singh who was facing, hold on, hold on, hold on.
32:53No, no, no, hold on.
32:54But on the ethical aspect, on the ethical aspect.
32:57Yes, I am, yes, I am giving you a legal, legal answer.
33:01Now, imagine a Neta from the BJP who is facing an FYI.
33:05However, he exerts his influence and he is not arrested.
33:09Now, well, in that situation, just because he is not being arrested, can you, you know, give him the benefit?
33:15Because technically he is not arrested, so then he is not supposed to resign.
33:19Now, imagine a situation where another person who is facing the same offence, which will have the same imprisonment, but, you know, there is an, you know, exertion of pressure and he gets arrested.
33:31Now, is it not something, is it not a tool at the hands of the executive to use this to, you know, to wreckage, you know, vendetta on the opposition?
33:44Can there be any, you know, logical explanation? Can there be any logical explanation? That's point number one.
33:49Now, point number two.
33:50I will respond very quickly and I will tell you why these arguments…
33:54Let's take it point by point so that the viewers can also, you know, stay abreast with the arguments that are being presented by both sides.
34:00And I must say, very powerful arguments coming from both sides on this debate.
34:05So, the fear that India will become a police state, it's a police officer, police ED, income tax department,
34:12they will decide which minister serves, which chief minister serves, who goes to jail, maybe at the directions of the prime minister or become a super prime minister, sir.
34:20You know, Gaurav, you raise excellent questions, but I think these fears are completely unfounded and I'll tell you why.
34:26When we test the constitutionality of a law or an amendment, what do we want to see, whether it is arbitrary or not?
34:32Now, my friend from the Congress party and the gentleman who's also the lawyer, both are trying to say that, look, you're innocent until proven guilty.
34:38And this somehow basically prematurely adjudges you to be guilty.
34:42But that isn't the case at all. This has nothing to do with guilt.
34:45It is only to prevent, basically, governance logjam.
34:48If you have been arrested, please step aside, get bail, go to court, get it quashed and come right back.
34:54And I have another very important point to make, which is not exactly a legal point, but a political point.
34:58And we're all political creatures here. We understand how India works.
35:01If you arrest a person, if let's assume that a person from the opposition is arrested wrongly, and it comes out later that it's some sort of a, you know, made up case, it's a bogus case.
35:11The political capital that that person will earn will be so massive.
35:16Nobody in government would want to make such a mistake.
35:18So to say very conveniently that, you know, they'll just throw anybody away and therefore depose any chief minister or any minister.
35:25I don't think there are courts in this country. And one last thing, I take great umbrage, great offence at what my friend Kapil said.
35:33That, you know, a person from the government may exert influence and get bail.
35:37What is he trying to say? That the judiciary in our country is some wiki mouse.
35:40I have never said he will get bail. I am sorry.
35:43I am sorry. You can influence somebody and you can get bail from somebody.
35:47That is exactly what he said. He said you can exert influence.
35:50Some people may exert influence and get bail.
35:53What is he trying to say? That the judiciary is not impartial in this country?
35:57We have the finest judiciary, finest judges in this country that uphold the rule of law.
36:02I am sorry, Mr. Dehadre. I think Mr. Dehadre didn't hear it.
36:05There are multiple illustrations and examples that are in front of all of us.
36:10One can be a neutral observer and see that many people from the opposition, we've seen UPA1, we've seen UPA2.
36:16Massive examples of corruption that have taken place.
36:19And now those individuals for that very reason are sitting in opposition today.
36:22Kapil wants to come in to clarify a point.
36:25Kapil wants to clarify a point on delay arrest, avoid arrest.
36:31Okay, go on. Go on, sir.
36:33No. So, let me tell you.
36:34Let me tell you. It is what I said very clearly.
36:36And I think Mr. Dehadre has not hurt me at the first instance.
36:40I will just repeat myself. I said that the police will act under the executive.
36:45So, therefore, you know, the executive may exert pressure on the police when to arrest, when not to arrest.
36:51I have never used the word court.
36:53Well, then the judiciary is sitting there to see if arrest procedures have not been adhered to.
36:58Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
36:59You're still casting.
37:00Sir, you're casting aspersions on the judiciary and I find that unacceptable.
37:03Mr. Dehadre, that's unacceptable, sir.
37:05I do get your anxiety. I do get you want to…
37:08Why should I have any anxiety?
37:10Insofar as I am concerned…
37:11I want to bring in Deshraatr Nigam.
37:12I want to bring in Deshraatr Nigam.
37:13Kapil Madan, that point has adequately been addressed.
37:17I want to bring in Deshraatr Nigam and only Deshraatr Nigam for a moment so that we can move on.
37:22There are so many points that we must discuss and times at a premium.
37:25Deshraatr Nigam, data indicates between 2014 and 22, there was a four-fold increase in enforcement
37:34directorate cases against political leaders.
37:3795% from the opposition.
37:40Of these are 19 ministers during their tenure.
37:4419 arrests made. Conviction rate for ED less than 1% is a point that the opposition brings out, sir.
37:51So, again, process becomes the punishment for those who are arrested and sent behind bars.
37:58Well, Gaurav, in fact, if one talks about process becoming punishment, this requires judicial reforms.
38:06Most of the delays are at the end of the judiciary.
38:09They take huge amount of time.
38:11And that is where we have that issue.
38:15That is not this thing rocket science.
38:18And we need to address those issues.
38:21Judiciary must, you know, speed up these cases, may set a fast track course for these.
38:25Because we have these important members, parliament members or senior bureaucrats are there.
38:31And these cases have to be speeded up.
38:34So far, second issue is concerned that India is becoming a police state.
38:37Let me tell you, these are democratically elected people through parliament who are making laws.
38:42Okay.
38:43This is not a police state.
38:45This is a parliament which is making these laws.
38:48These constitutionality and the wires of these acts are challenged in a court of law.
38:55So it cannot be a police state under any circumstances.
38:58Yes, if police is doing something wrong through its processes, you can challenge them.
39:02There are policemen who have been punished also.
39:04There have been custodial deaths where police have been punished.
39:07Okay.
39:08And also in huge, huge number of cases, you will see quotes have come down very heavily on police agencies if they have been misused.
39:14But Sayyid Zafar Islam, Sayyid Zafar Islam, Sayyid Zafar Islam, PMLA cases, conviction rate less than 10%.
39:21In fact, it took the Honourable Chief Justice of India, CGI Gawai, to call out the enforcement directorate and say words to the effect,
39:31ED is successful only in incarcerating people for years without securing conviction.
39:38So will this process not kill political careers, sir?
39:42See, there are two things. First of all, all of us need to understand that it is only the criminals are going to be arrested,
39:56not anybody who has not committed crime. So if somebody has committed crime, he needs to be overly concerned about it.
40:03But people who have not committed crime or do not intend to...
40:06Sir, but courts decide criminals.
40:07Otherwise, we not worry about it. No, I am saying that it is for the court to decide.
40:13As far as the conviction rate is concerned, it is not for the Bharti Janata Party, for the government or for that matter.
40:19Any individual or any party has to decide. It is the court which convicts or give relief.
40:26It is not for me to make any statement or make any observation because at the end of the day, every department is independent department.
40:35It is an independent agencies are independent of the government that they are pursuing based on the information and the lead they have.
40:42It is very unfair to make this kind of statement, how much conviction is there. Conviction is not in their end.
40:48Else, they would have 99% would have been convicted. But it is for the court to decide. So neither you nor me can make any statement as per the court process is concerned.
40:58It is for the judges to decide what the conviction rate should be. It is not for us or for the matter of...
41:04Fair enough. Respond, Mr. Kadyal, before I bring in Jainan Dhyadurai also.
41:08But let me tell you, let me tell you, the people of India are happy. People of India will be extremely happy with this law because once it becomes law after whatever amendment or changes will be made by the JPC.
41:22But people of India will welcome because they feel that they are ordinary citizens but the politicians are not. But with this introduction of this legislation, perhaps every Indian will feel that they are at par with the rest of the people.
41:36It is their politicians, ministers or for that matter, Prime Minister or anyone else. Fair enough.
41:41So I think the Honorable Prime Minister has said very clearly that there should be...
41:45The point that BJP MP and Chairman, Bar Council of India, Manan Mishra was making is that it is important to remove those who have been in jail for 30 days plus as an undertrial.
41:56So that their ministerial work does not get impacted. Should they get bail beyond the 31st day, they can come back and resume work.
42:04Why oppose something that has been brought to have Swach Bharat in politics?
42:10I have already answered that question, Gaurav, when I told you that let's say a person has been removed from the office and subsequently is found innocent during investigation.
42:18You would have punished an innocent person or if he is acquitted...
42:21Sir, I am sorry. My question is not conviction, secure bail. The moment he secures bail, he resumes office. It's not that long process all the way. No, no, no. That's why I said hear me out first.
42:33My question is on bail. The moment he gets bail, he can resume work. Let the public not suffer.
42:39I'll give an example. I'll give an example. Number one, you talked of bail. There are... I can give you more than a dozen sections where it's very difficult to obtain bail.
42:49It takes time. There are measures put in those sections which ensures that time is taken. And then what if the police demand that is needed? So many days goes into that. Then you have to ensure that your case is drafted. It is filed. You engage a lawyer. It's a big process. 30 days is nothing.
43:07So, does that mean if anybody is accused of corruption, he will never go to jail? Some minister? Even if he goes to jail, he should remain a minister?
43:14The question is who will decide he is a criminal or he is guilty or he is guilty?
43:18Courts of law. It is for the court to decide. How will the Bahti Janda Party come into the picture? How will the Bahti Janda Party decide this?
43:24No, I want to bring in Jainand Dehad Rai. Number two, one last point. One last point, please. As per the ADR, the Bahti Janda Party's elected leaders are maximum...
43:31It's a legal point. No. Number two, I just want to tell... One second, please.
43:36Sir, this case is all about bail. You secure bail. You come back to work.
43:40One second, how? Jai, am I wrong on facts here? Purely on facts.
43:43Gaurav, you are absolutely correct, Gaurav. This is effectively... I am purely on facts here.
43:48May I come in, please? You cannot assume the role of judiciary. You cannot assume the powers of judiciary. You cannot dictate who is a criminal and who is not.
43:59Can I come in very quickly? But courts will decide who is a criminal or not unless you are saying a politician should never be arrested.
44:05Whatever is the allegation against a politician, never arrest him.
44:08Gaurav, you are absolutely correct and let me explain why.
44:13I want to bring in Jainant Dehadra on another point. The last one minute that I have on this part of the show, I simply want to ask one question.
44:20Would this not require... Jai, would this not require two-thirds majority to... It's a constitutional amendment bill.
44:28Does the BJP or the NDA have numbers two-thirds majority in parliament? If they do, which means the opposition will have to support them.
44:36If they don't, which means what is this kiosk all about?
44:40No, you are absolutely right. This will have to be tested on the floor of the house. Gaurav, I agree with you.
44:44In fact, you make another very good point. You know, this entire fear that this is going to lead to removal, this is unfounded.
44:51This is effectively a suspension. You are removed if for beyond 30 days, if you remain incarcerated, step aside so that government can continue to function efficiently.
44:59That's all it is. And by the way, disqualification, we are all forgetting. Disqualification, in fact, is already contained in another statute.
45:06Why are we forgetting that the People's Representation Act, Section 8, already contains a provision where a person, a member of parliament is effectively disqualified the moment a conviction comes in.
45:17So this is only a suspension. Nomenclature perhaps could have been different. This is very good. This allows governance to go on smoothly.
45:24And I think I quite agree with the gentleman from the BJP. He's right. Would a common person in India want a person who has been charged with a serious criminal offence to continue to remain in jail incarcerated and have governance suffer?
45:37I don't think that's quite right. I'll leave our viewers with that question. We don't wait on either side. As I slip into a break, I want to thank all my guests for being a part of this show.
45:48But can a person who's been sent to jail, can a chief minister or a minister continue to function beyond 30 days without bail? That's a question that our viewers have to grapple with.
46:01Get bail, come out and govern again. But in jail, at least let governance happen. You decide who's right and who isn't.
46:09India's Operation Sindur. When for the first time, India not just called out Pakistan's nuclear bogey, punished terrorists, also punished the terror sponsors.
46:23Those in Pakistan who aided, abetted, fueled, funded terror for decades. For the first time, they were punished.
46:32And now Operation Sindur will be a part of school textbooks. The module for middle and secondary stages, that is class 9 to 12, highlights three very key aspects of Operation Sindur.
46:45First, the change in what Lashkar-e Taiba or the resistance front. The change in their stance. Initially, this terrorist outfit claimed responsibility and then backed off.
46:55Four days later, the NIA probe and eyewitnesses actually confirmed the role of Lashkar-e Taiba's front. It's a Pakistan-based radical Islamist organization.
47:07Second, Pakistan's attempted strike at Indian military bases, how it failed, the use of Brahmo supersonic cruise missiles, the Akash missile defense shield, the Akash Teer and the Sudarshan Chakra, the S-400 system.
47:23How the counter warfare system neutralized the threat from Pakistan. And finally, how Pakistan, a state sponsor of radical Islamist terror, begged for a ceasefire after India's counter strikes.
47:38Targeting initially, not just 9 terror bases, but 11 air bases, including Noor Khan, Sargoda, Jacobabad, from Skardu in Pakistan, occupied Jammu and Kashmir, down to Bholari in Sindh.
47:51How Pakistan begged for a ceasefire that broke Pakistan's morale. India Today's Milan Sharma gets you this big story.
47:59How Pakistan did it?
48:06Not much one of the forces of the war.
48:11Please, stop the war.
48:16This is the name of the Samrani DGMO, and the referent of the attacks in Pakistan.
48:18India's military strike.
48:27strike, Pakistan's treachery, and now the lessons straight in school books.
48:36NCERT's new chapter in the secondary stages for Class 9-12 on Operation Sindhur details
48:42how Pakistan, ISI and Lashkar plotted the Pehlgaam attack and how India hit back, forcing
48:49Islamabad to agree to cease fire.
48:51The module spells it out, from Brahmo's firepower to Akash defense, and how the Indian Army's
49:00valor broke Pakistan's morale.
49:05The NCERT module details how TRF first claimed responsibility for the Pehlgaam attack, but
49:12later denied it.
49:15NIA's probe nailed its role with clear evidence.
49:18Tracking the plot to ISI, Lashkar-e-Toiba, and direct orders from Pakistan's army and
49:24leadership.
49:25It also documents Pakistan's 115-aim strike, using missiles, drones, and long-range artillery.
49:33But India's S-400, Akash, and counter-warfare systems crushed the salt.
49:38And finally, how the Indian Army's retaliation broke Pakistan's morale, forcing it to beg for
49:45immediate ceasefire.
49:48But America hasn't stopped claiming a hand in the ceasefire.
49:52The Trump administration continues to say the U.S. president brokered the ceasefire.
49:56The president is using the might of American strength to demand that respect from our allies,
50:05our friends, our adversaries all around the world.
50:07And we've seen that not just lead to progress with Russia and Ukraine, but also we've seen
50:11it in the closing of seven global conflicts around the world as well.
50:15We've seen it with the release of hostages in Gaza.
50:18You've seen it with the end of the conflict between India and Pakistan, which could have
50:22resulted in a nuclear war if we had not had a president who believed in the strength and
50:27the leverage that comes with the job of being the president of the United States of America.
50:31The claim that India has steadily rejected.
50:38In fact, Prime Minister Modi clearly said in parliament that no leader of any country asked
50:44India to stop operations in India to stop operations in the world.
51:02In addition, I wonder if the President of Japan thrived in the community to stop łas ああ
51:16donna Tenzaコtec , which commander of the command at the end of the war 시 impossible and
51:18panorakum at the end of the Europe he charged at the end of the wars silence to authoritarian
51:22He made the clear ajuda I am determined there?
51:28Even Congress's Shashi Tharoor busting White House's lie.
51:46The successful strikes of the night of 9th, 10th May and the ability of India to intercept the attempted Pakistani response when they sent missiles to Delhi on the morning of the 10th, I think was what contributed undoubtedly, and not Mr Trump, to the call by the Pakistani DGMO to his Indian counterpart asking for peace.
52:16Operation Sindur is India's own victory, driven by its armed forces, not outside powers.
52:24Now, that lesson is part of our school books for the next generation.
52:28With Milan Sharma, Bureau Report, India Today.
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