- 7 weeks ago
In this episode of Democratic Newsroom, the focus is on a contentious Constitutional amendment bill, which Home Minister Amit Shah introduced in the Lok Sabha on Wednesday.
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00:00Good evening, viewers. You're watching the Democratic Newsroom. I'm Preeti Chaudhary.
00:04We are back with yet another edition of the Democratic Newsroom, and it comes from something
00:09that happened in Parliament today, which took many by surprise. The government tabled what
00:13can be easily said a very contentious bill, the Constitutional Amendment Bill. Since then,
00:19it's gone to the JPC, but it's got not just the political class divided, but even when
00:26it comes down to journalists. And that's exactly what we are discussing today. Somewhere down
00:30the line, does the Constitutional Amendment Bill override the very tenet where it comes
00:35down to natural justice? Or it's time that we have cleansing in the political system as
00:42well. If civil servants have to step down from their position, why not politicians? Let's
00:48throw it open. We have two new entrants today. Maria Shakil joins the Democratic Newsroom.
00:53B.V. Rao, our editor, is also stepping in this time. We have Manish, my colleague, who's
01:00also been joining us. But let me quickly introduce our editor's table to you, Anisha. We have
01:07Nalini and, as usual, Gaurav Savan. So, B.V. Rao, would you want to go first? What's
01:13your opinion?
01:15We throw around the term constitutional morality these days. It's all over the time.
01:23Anybody and everybody who talks about the Constitution, those in this term, what's your opinion?
01:30If constitutional morality is a thing, then there is no problem with this bill. Right? Because
01:37Constitution morally required you to step aside if you were arrested or charge-cheated. Not
01:45convicted. Conviction, there is a separate law for that. So, constitutional morality required
01:51you to resign. And it used to happen. Right? Right. So, till there, I'm okay with it. This law is fine. But, the thing is, in 79 years of our democracy, our constitutional morality, there's just one chief minister who worked from, or tried to work from jail. Not that he actually worked from jail. He tried to work from jail. It didn't happen. That's the one exception. Normally, laws are not.
02:09Laws are not. Only laws are not.
02:38That is one. The second is, the recent experience of using the agencies has not been very fair.
02:49There is an allegation where the opposition is concerned, the weaponization of agencies.
02:54Why do we call it weaponization? Because they have hardly ever resulted in any concrete action.
03:01Charge sheets take forever and ever. People are there in jail for 18 months, 2 years, close to 2 years.
03:08So, is this fair to ask anybody to resign or to say that once an agency arrests you and you are in jail for more than one month and if the offense is 5 years plus, then the president will then sack the person.
03:28That is where I think is the biggest catch in this. The recent experience injects that worry into the entire debate.
03:37Maybe this is not as clean.
03:39The apprehension of misuse, the apprehension of agencies becoming state political actors.
03:45That is what you are trying to suggest.
03:47So, alright. So, B.B. Rao has laid it down.
03:49If there is moral constitutionality but in this day and age has there been moral turpitude especially in politics, many would suggest that is an oxymoron.
03:58But I want to bring in Gaurav Savant into this conversation.
04:01Gaurav, what are your views on this?
04:02So, it depends whether you are looking at people first or politicians first.
04:07If you think people first, then what does this law say?
04:11That people should not suffer.
04:13Why?
04:14If a Neta is in jail for more than 30 days, 31 days, then he cannot discharge his or her constitutional responsibility.
04:22So, he automatically steps aside.
04:25The work can happen and we have seen an example in the national capital.
04:29But if he gets bail and are we to say that courts will not grant him bail?
04:34If there is something wrong in the system, you improve the system, right?
04:38You don't say that people let people suffer all along till the time we make that perfect law and have that perfect society.
04:45You have to be people centric.
04:48If you have a people centric approach, then at least their work will not suffer.
04:52If Neta A goes to jail, Neta B will come.
04:55Neta C will come.
04:56Unless you are saying, oh, this person is irreplaceable.
04:59He is the only one who is good for the people of that area.
05:03Nobody else is.
05:04Gaurav, you are basically saying it is good that the bill has been tabled, has gone to the JPC.
05:09You are pro.
05:10So, I am in favor of a great debate if a great debate were to happen and not disruption.
05:16So, I am very happy to see a great debate happen and get all sides of the story.
05:20Because some of the who say that we will become a police state.
05:24I believe in the majesty of our courts and I know our courts are independent and I know our courts are not subservient to the executive or the legislator as some may try to say.
05:36I don't think so.
05:37But, you know, I will just add one thing because sometimes the hands of the courts are also tied.
05:41Especially where you have laws like PMLA which are already being contended in court.
05:45Where at least for the first 30 days even getting bail is impossible.
05:48So, by the time that bail comes in, you already have had to step down.
05:52But I want to just get in a legal point of view and then I am going to get in Mariya.
05:55But, Nalini, you want to weigh in on what the bail actually says?
05:59Preeti, I think it's a little bit ironical when Gaurav says that you have to be thinking of the people.
06:06You have to be people centric.
06:08People are the ones who should not suffer.
06:10When what you are essentially doing is removing an elected representative that those very people have chosen in the first place.
06:17To lead them, to govern them.
06:20That elected representative who is a part of the legislature is being removed through arbitrary executive action.
06:27It's a direct attack on the doctrine of separation of powers.
06:32And what's worse is that it's being done without any checks and balances in place.
06:37There is no judicial approval for the fact that if somebody has been arrested, do they deserve to continue being in jail?
06:44Should they resign from their post?
06:47Is something that can come into question only when at least to some extent some charges are proved against them.
06:52Forget charges being proved.
06:54At least let the court frame charges against a particular person so that you know that the court has gone through the merits of the case to a certain extent.
07:01And they think at least prima facie there is enough ground to frame certain amount of serious charges.
07:07In addition to that, you've added this arbitrary term of offences more than five years punishment.
07:13Which according to the data on Vidhi website includes over 2000 offences from something as serious as kidnapping or attempt to murder to something as trivial as trying to stop a public servant from discharging his duties.
07:31But is that trivial?
07:32Of course that's trivial when you're talking about removing an elected representative from his seat.
07:37And that to be on doubt, that to be on accusation, not conviction.
07:42And just one last thing, Preeti, I would like to add.
07:43I would really like to appreciate how they've added the term prime minister in this.
07:48As if trying to make it seem that any police officer has the authority or the guts to go ahead and arrest the prime minister in the first place.
07:55You know, we're also going to, we're also going to, we're also going to, it's been done in the past.
07:59I'm going to come to Maria, we're also going to get Munish in.
08:01One of the main reasons why we have Munish today in the Democratic Newsroom is because Munish covers the agencies like the ED and the CBS.
08:09So lots of questions swirling there.
08:10But Maria, come on, what's your point?
08:11Yes, so Preeti, look, Caesar's wife should be above suspicion.
08:16There is a reason why legislators and ministers are seen differently.
08:21While there is a representation of People's Act, which covers legislators, that is the MLAs and MPs, there is nothing that actually corrects if ministers go wrong.
08:33What is, while there is a constitutional expectation of a minister, there are also moral expectations from ministers.
08:40Invariably, what happens is that legislators and ministers are not seen on the same footing.
08:44That's the reason why, because of the power that executive wields.
08:47What I feel is that in recent times, there have been only last year two examples.
08:56First, Hemant Sorain, who resigns because of moral responsibility.
09:02He has someone else in office and then he wins in People's Court just a few months later.
09:09You have another example of Arvind Kejriwal, who makes that exception, continues to be in office and then loses in People's Court.
09:16I think people judged these two comparisons, said, you know, actually, by that, people said that they do not have faith in his governance because that was being done from the jail.
09:30Because of that exception, I think a legislation of this nature, of course, there is a joint parliamentary committee which will be further deliberating it.
09:37And because we have a consultative process in democracy, this is the need of the hour.
09:42Let MPs talk about it.
09:44Let other stakeholders come in.
09:46But rejecting this bill as draconian outrightly may not be fair.
09:50You know, I just want to flip that argument, you know, because you gave the example of Hemant Sorain's government.
09:54Yes, he resigned.
09:55But what is feared by the political class today is the misuse of agencies to destabilize governments, especially when they're going into an election.
10:04The classic case is Hemant Sorain, because Hemant Sorain steps down on moral turpitude, appoints somebody else.
10:10And lo and behold, there is a huge play out of his party being turned upside down with Champai Sorain, trying to get into a coup, joining the BJP later.
10:21He might have won it. Many think that he actually won it on the sympathy factor, not because he stepped down.
10:26But this is exactly what political class is fearing right now, because they are fearing, you're going to try and misuse it.
10:31You're going to try and destabilize my government. Look, it happened in Jharkhand with Hemant Sorain.
10:35But, but, but, Preeti, when it comes to toppling of government, it doesn't necessarily have to do with a chief minister stepping down.
10:42We have seen instances of Maharashtra as well, where governments have moved.
10:46So, I think when it is about this particular legislation, there has to be a consultative process, which is beginning.
10:54Toppling of government, vis-a-vis a minister resigning or a chief minister resigning may not be the case.
10:59In past, countless examples have been there from Lalu Yadav to many others in the past who have resigned only because they were fearing arrest.
11:08Fair point. But, you know, that was my limited interjection there, because you had a Champai Sorain who later goes and joins the BJP.
11:15Many would suggest that this is exactly what you're fearing. But I want to bring in Munish and I'll go to Anisha then,
11:20because a lot has been spoken of the weaponization of agencies like the CBI, like the ED, of how they could pretty much turn into state and political actors.
11:31It's something we have very commonly coming in Munish, where the opposition is concerned.
11:36Why I feel and many feel that this fear needs to be voiced is virtue of data.
11:43Last 10 years, 193 cases on politicians by the ED and the CBI, out of which we have seen only two convictions, one of 193.
11:5198% of the 193 cases are only on the opposition. I'm not saying that this is vendetta. Nobody is saying this is a witch hunt.
12:01But then you can't even blame the opposition to say that, see, you're misusing your agencies.
12:06Okay. So there are two points. First, I think that, you know, when you are a public representative,
12:12then your responsibility and accountability is much more in comparison to any other person.
12:16For example, if a public servant is arrested, then there is a rule and by law, you have to be suspended within 24 hours.
12:23So if there are charges of corruption against any politician, be it a chief minister, be it anyone, that person should resign.
12:31As B.V. Rasa said just a while back that in last 79 years, there have been only three, four cases and that are recent when they decided not to resign.
12:42One is Arvind Kejriwal. Second is Satyendra Jayan. And in third case, and it becomes very important, in Senthil Balaji case, he decided not to resign.
12:52Supreme Court had to intervene and Supreme Court asked Senthil Bala, you have to resign because you can't discharge your duty while you are in jail.
13:00Can I give you another example?
13:01Narayan Rane. 2021, when he was arrested, he was MSME minister and he is on record to say that I will not step down.
13:09It was, of course, another matter that he was given bail in two days. But make your point.
13:12So, as far as agencies are concerned, remember, Priti, you know, there have been a lot of allegations against CBI and ED.
13:19As far as the political arrests are concerned, in the same case, Arvind Kejriwal went to lower court, high court and Supreme Court.
13:28He presented his case, but he was not given bail for months.
13:32Satyendra Jayan went to Supreme Court.
13:34The arrest and the allegations by the ED or by the CBI is based on the evidence.
13:41When there is no evidence, then they are given bail by the same judiciary.
13:45For example, Sanjay Singh, he got bail in two months because there was not enough evidence against these politicians.
13:52But when it comes to certain politicians and if there are allegations of grave corruption against them,
13:57I think they should be held responsible because they are elected representative.
14:01And as Gaurav said, that people should not suffer.
14:03But fair point. But you've got 193 cases ever since 2014. Some of them are still continuing.
14:08Actually, how many? Most of them are still continuing.
14:10As Gaurav rightly pointed out.
14:12It's also the point of PMLA, no, Munir?
14:14See, Preeti...
14:16Where the ED books somebody under PMLA, that person for the first 30 days in any case is not going to get bail.
14:20No, he can get bail. There are people who have got bail in seven days.
14:24Even if they have been arrested in PMLA.
14:26Tell me, if you look at the data which has come in of the 193 politicians who have been booked under the PMLA,
14:32tell me which one has gotten bail in seven days.
14:33I will tell you, Preeti. I have a very simple answer to it.
14:36The problem is not with PMLA or ED or with the CBI.
14:40The problem here is with the judiciary.
14:42The judiciary in the country is functioning in a way where the trial goes on for 15 years, 20 years.
14:49And that is why if you talk about the conviction rate of ED, it is 93% at this point of time.
14:55Fair point.
14:55If the problem is with the judiciary, then why are you trying to fix that by bringing in a new law?
15:02I want to bring in Anisha because, Anisha, there's this, the other argument, which is a very fair argument.
15:08If our civil servants are following a certain protocol, which is that they step down in 30 days,
15:14what makes our politicians different?
15:15Why shouldn't they be asked to step down?
15:19If I can make two points here.
15:21One is to answer your question.
15:22The other one is to respond to what Manish has said about the judiciary being the problem here.
15:28There are supposed to be fast-track courts in the country,
15:32which, by the way, the judiciary has been asking for, for funding, for staffing, for everything.
15:38Judiciary is not and cannot be the panacea for everything in the country.
15:44Somewhere, the executive has to step in and get the things in place for a judge to hear the matter.
15:51If the charge sheet doesn't come for several months, if the evidence does not come, a judge cannot take a decision.
15:58Let me give you some numbers here.
16:00As of 2020, as of 1st January 2025, there are 4,732 cases pending across states against MPs and MLAs.
16:12559 of these have been pending for more than 10 years.
16:14Out of these, 863 cases are with regard to violation of 144, that is curfew orders, protests,
16:23or as Nalini suggested, something as simple, if I may use the term,
16:29as blocking a public servant from doing their job,
16:33which, by the way, includes standing at a barricade and going,
16:37which happens pretty much every day.
16:42There are 1552 cases against sitting MP MLAs right now.
16:47This is the data that I've got from the status report that the Amicus Curie has filed from records of the High Courts.
16:55170 cases out of these, sorry, 251 of our current MPs have criminal cases.
17:02170 of them are cases where the punishment is 5 years plus.
17:08Therefore, right now, in our parliament, 31% of people in our parliament sitting right now are facing heinous offence cases.
17:19Now, Manish is saying, why doesn't the judiciary do something about it?
17:24When, how?
17:26Charge sheet has to come, evidence has to come.
17:29Our FSLs take forever to give responses.
17:32Our trials take forever because charge sheets are, there are supplementary charge sheets upon supplementary charge sheets.
17:39Take any ED case.
17:40There are at least 3 to 4, if not 9 or 10 supplementary charge sheets.
17:44May I just come in for 30 seconds?
17:46This is not about MPs and MLAs.
17:48It's only about ministers and chief ministers.
17:51You can't be a minister without being an MP or MLA.
17:54It's very specific.
17:56Okay, quickly wrap your point and then we'll come back.
17:57The point I want to quickly make is, you see that your chief minister cannot function from jail.
18:02Your ministers cannot function from jail.
18:04So, in case they are jailed, let there be somebody else who will step in so that you put people first and not ministers first.
18:10I agree with that.
18:11They should not function from jail.
18:13And I think Mr. Rao will also, you know, can come in and correct my memory.
18:16There was a telecom minister who functioned from jail.
18:18Sukhra, if I'm not wrong, but quickly make your point.
18:20Sorry, just one point that I'm making.
18:22That because this bill as it stands right now, and I'm not saying that this is a bad bill.
18:29I'm saying it's badly drafted.
18:30It needs to be looked at.
18:32It needs to be considered, consulted.
18:34Okay.
18:35Because you need to make sure that you're not simply taking political advantage.
18:38Let's put the argument.
18:38You know, in UK, there's a ministerial code, which if you have a case against you, if you
18:43have been accused, there is an allegation, you automatically step down.
18:47And we've seen in the last two years, so many of those ministers have stepped down.
18:50Just because by the virtue of our politicians being completely besharam or lack of a moral
18:58turpitude or radar, they don't step down.
19:01Most of them have stepped down in India.
19:02But in the recent years, last 10 years, they haven't.
19:05Except for last year, ministers have been.
19:09They would always step down.
19:11I think we are discussing one important thing.
19:16Final point, sir.
19:17The problem with this is that when you convert morality into legality, morality is supposed
19:23to be observed.
19:24Legality is supposed to be implemented.
19:26Right?
19:27So that is where this problem is.
19:29If everything was followed, see, why did Arvind Kejewal do what he did?
19:32Because he knows that his case will go on for 20 years.
19:35And then if he's convicted, then he will have to resign.
19:41Then 20 years later, he won't be chief minister by then anyway.
19:43Because we have less time, Mr. Rahm, I'm going to ask you one question and we're going to
19:46go all the way back because I want to get everybody in.
19:48Do you think this bill will pass?
19:52Because it's a constitutional amendment, two-third majority.
19:55Do you think there can be a joint sitting?
19:56That's a gray area.
19:57How do you look at it?
19:58I think so.
19:59It's not going to be easy to get two-thirds, especially in the Rajya Sabha.
20:03Right.
20:03So if they do a joint session, maybe, but they'll have to work the numbers like crazy.
20:09They don't, they're not, what they call, very favorable right now.
20:14But how they'll do it, maybe smaller parties will be asked to abstain.
20:17I don't know.
20:18All right, guys, we have one minute each for five of you and I need to quit.
20:21Okay, Mariya, you want to come in and then Gaurav, you come in and then we'll all go like that.
20:24Preeti, look, the intent with which this bill has been brought, and it was Home Minister Amit Shah
20:29who tabled it.
20:30The bill has now been sent to a joint parliamentary committee.
20:33There is a proper process which will be followed.
20:35And this bill will be passed.
20:37We have to wait and see whether it is the JPC is for three months or six months.
20:41Clarity on that will emerge.
20:42But the government is fully confident and they have reasons to.
20:46That they have the numbers.
20:47They will ensure that this bill has passed.
20:48But how do they have the numbers?
20:49They have the two-third numbers.
20:50So, it also depends.
20:51I'll tell you how.
20:52I'll tell you how.
20:53You cannot prejudge what our honorable lawmakers will do.
20:56However, once, let's see what emerges from the JPC.
20:59Because once what emerges from the JPC will have concurrence or opposition of most members
21:04who have sat on it, deliberated on it.
21:06And then we'll see who is in favor of corrupt or the allegedly corrupt remaining in office
21:11and who are in favor of only clean governance.
21:14So, if you're in favor of clean governance, I'm sure you'll support the bill.
21:16I'm only going by the virtue of the political parties that have spoken out against the bill.
21:20I'm sure even some of the, I'm sure some of the even NDA allied chief ministers will be very worried.
21:25Will be worried, like TV, please.
21:26And maybe some in the opposition will also support it.
21:28You never know.
21:29Okay, you never know.
21:30So, it remains to be seen.
21:31Why we are saying, maybe Mr. Rao and I are saying it's difficulties.
21:33We are just going by the current placement on how the cards are stacked.
21:38The immediate context.
21:38Immediate context.
21:39Okay, one minute each.
21:40Go ahead.
21:41I agree with Gaurav, Mariya, Munish that elected representatives must be held accountable.
21:47And under the current system, they are held accountable.
21:50Where if they are convicted for any offense more than two years, they are automatically disqualified.
21:54In the recent past, we saw it happen with Rahul Gandhi, who today sits as a leader of opposition in the Lok Sabha.
22:00It's very much a possibility.
22:01In case there is some serious charges against an elected representative, they can be removed.
22:06Second thing is that the government does not seem to be in any rush to get this bill passed.
22:11When it was listed in the parliament, it was clearly mentioned that it's being listed for it to be recommended to a committee.
22:16It seems for me, at this point, it's a narrative building.
22:20Nothing more than that.
22:21So that shows how fair our system is.
22:23Okay.
22:24One minute.
22:24Somebody who has bought is back as AOP.
22:26One minute.
22:26One minute.
22:27My show is getting late.
22:29Next one.
22:29Go.
22:29So, Priti, I was speaking to someone very important this afternoon.
22:34Who?
22:34How important?
22:35The government was of the opinion that this bill will not pass.
22:38Will not pass.
22:39Because of the two-third numbers.
22:40Government will face difficulty in getting those numbers.
22:43So much has changed from here to there.
22:45Okay.
22:45That is my conversation with that person.
22:47Okay.
22:47But, you know, end of the day, I think that this bill is very important.
22:52And why the government came up with this bill?
22:54Because when the Arvind Kejriwal episode happened, or even for that matter, Satyendra Jayan, government went through the entire, you know, law and everything.
23:02And they got to know that there are no provisions on the basis of which an elected representative, CM, can be removed.
23:11And any person sitting in jail cannot run the government.
23:16So, that is why this bill is extremely important.
23:18I think everyone should welcome it.
23:20But it's not going to be passed, you said.
23:22Because a very important person told Manish, which he'll tell who that important person is after.
23:25Can I just say one?
23:26Yeah, quickly.
23:27Make your point and then we go.
23:28Just one point that I want to make.
23:30When we're talking about who is misusing what and what misuse is possible.
23:34One example you have is Senthil Balaji, who resigned only after the Supreme Court said, resign or we will cancel your bail.
23:40The other, by the way, is Vijay Shah from Madhya Pradesh, a BJP minister, who has not resigned, who has not been asked to resign, who has not even been arrested,
23:48with the Supreme Court itself saying, which constable is going to have the guts to arrest a sitting minister,
23:58even though the charges against him seem to be serious.
24:02In that scenario, and we are bringing in this kind of a law, where you have a very jiski lathi uski bhaiz system going on in the country.
24:11And therefore, the question of misuse is always there.
24:14Okay.
24:15The second point, just one, one time point.
24:17Only based on that.
24:18Okay, one second.
24:19He's the last big deal.
24:20Okay, what I'm going to do is, I'm giving, I'm giving, I know all of you want to come in, but you guys can always come in.
24:25Maria is going to be with our news, Democratic newsroom every week.
24:29Munish, we'll always invite you, but our special invitee, B.V. Rao.
24:32He's the first time he's come in, and I would think, sir, final book.
24:35You have been very good from my earlier experience of watching you on air.
24:40Sir, you have 30 seconds, you wanted the last one.
24:42Yeah, less than that.
24:43I'm saying bill or no bill, I hope every top executive who is arrested on anything resigns first.
24:52Okay, that's a good one to go.
24:53Integrity clause in public life.
24:55That's a good one to go.
24:56You want to come in, say it, Munish.
24:57Just based on some apprehensions or some theories, we cannot oppose a bill.
25:03Something like this.
25:04Not apprehensions, but then it's a, I can't now, I don't have time to finish this.
25:08I need to close the bulletin.
25:09Okay, thank you all for joining us.
25:10We're going to see you next week on Democratic Newsroom.
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