00:00Let me go straight to former Attorney General and Senior Advocate of the Supreme Court,
00:04Mukul Rohadgi, who joins us live.
00:06Mr. Rohadgi, of course, there's a lot of political debate which is going on with regards to this
00:10bill, which is now before the Joint Parliamentary Committee.
00:14As a Senior Advocate, what are your thoughts on this legislation?
00:18Do you think it's draconian, as the opposition is saying?
00:20Or are you of the opinion that the intent with which this bill is being brought in
00:26is certainly in the right direction because it is about the clean-up of the political class in general?
00:34See, Maria, my first impression is that the legislation is an attempt to clean up
00:41the politics and the politicians of this country.
00:47There are a large number of cases where politicians are in jail
00:55and we saw in the case of Delhi that files were being signed in a jail or from a jail cell, etc.
01:03Now it is obvious that it is inconceivable that a government can be run from jail,
01:11that too, by an important minister or a chief minister.
01:13So, the law is welcomed and the law only says that if a person is in custody for 30 days or more,
01:28he will lose his ministership.
01:30Well, once he gets bail, he may have a right to come back as a minister
01:35should the chief minister want him back.
01:39So, it's really a temporary kind of a situation.
01:42It's not a permanent situation like saying that if you are in custody for more than 30 days,
01:47you are damned forever and you can never be an MLA or you can never be a minister.
01:52That would be draconian.
01:54But this is only a temporary kind of a situation of 30 days or 40 days.
02:00There is too much hullabaloo about it.
02:03And I don't think that, I mean, it's like making a mountain out of a mollet.
02:08Okay, Mr. Rahadvi, the opposition says that there have been multiple instances of misuse of agencies,
02:15the Enforcement Directorate, the CBI.
02:16And if you look at this data, which essentially says that there have been 13 instances of sitting ministers
02:22being detained by either the ED or the CBI.
02:26And most of them have ended up spending 30 days in jail.
02:32So, this essentially looks at some kind of legislation which is being brought in to politically target opposition
02:41because it gives a lot of power to the executive.
02:44And, you know, perhaps create some kind of anarchy in states to topple governments
02:50which have been democratically elected by the people.
02:54See, Maria, possibility of misuse does not make the law invalid.
03:04That is settled legal position.
03:06Now, if it is found that in some cases the ruling government is trying to put opposition ministers in jail, etc.
03:19Well, then you have courts, don't you?
03:21You can go to court and the court grants you bail.
03:25All opposition ministers or MPs or MLAs have got bail.
03:32And if I may dare say, once this 30-day rule is there, it would be legitimate to tell the court concerned,
03:41which is hearing a bail petition, that ask the court to decide it at the earliest
03:46so that the deadline of 30 days is not crossed,
03:49I mean, it would in fact help a detainee in trying to get an early hearing
03:55as opposed to, you know, the bail taking a few months or six months or eight months.
04:00This would be a weapon in his hand to ask the court to look at it at the earliest
04:07so that he does not, you know, suffer the guillotine of 30 days.
04:11I think that's the silver lining that one must look at.
04:16Of course, the intent here is that the governments should not function out of jail.
04:20The administrative functioning should not happen out of jail.
04:24But, sir, isn't this legislation a bit too harsh?
04:27Because the premise has always been that you are innocent until proven guilty.
04:32And detention and conviction are two very different things.
04:37I agree with you, Maria, but the problem in our country is
04:41that a conviction takes 10 years.
04:45And the disqualification to stand in an election is also based on a conviction.
04:51So the other end of the spectrum is that it will take 10 or 20 years for a conviction
04:56and then you can otherwise keep on, you know, being in active politics.
05:02That is also the other extreme.
05:04So you're going to find out some bio-media.
05:06I mean, I'm sure, you know, one could argue that 30 days would have become 60 days or 90 days.
05:11Maybe 90 days would have been more appropriate.
05:14But then you've got to draw this line somewhere.
05:18And 30 days by itself will not become illegal if the court feels that 60 or 90 is better.
05:23You know, you have to draw the line somewhere.
05:26Okay.
05:26And I mean, these are laws which are an attempt to clean up the system.
05:34Sometimes they may feel or look a little harsh.
05:37But of course, time will tell as in how they are interpreted and how they are put into use.
05:44And I mean, it can be changed later also.
05:47If it is found that it is acting absolutely harshly, parliament can change it.
05:52And also, please remember one thing.
05:55The law is there to stay unless it is changed.
05:59The current government is there till 2029.
06:03Who knows who will come in 2029?
06:06And if the opposition comes back and they, you know, try to get their back at the current ruling party,
06:14then the members of the ruling party will then face the front, no?
06:17It is not as if that the current government kind of will remain forever and ever.
06:23Governments have a tendency of change.
06:26In 5, 10, 15 years, governments change.
06:29So, it is not as if it is only a one-way traffic.
06:31The same thing will come to bite them back.
06:34So, that is how it is.
06:35Of course, you know, the government, as it presented the bill,
06:41it is saying that this is a significant reform aimed at curbing criminalization of politics.
06:46And if we were to look at the statement of reason, an object,
06:51a minister facing serious criminal charges if arrested and detained
06:55could undermine constitutional morality, principles of good governance,
06:59and erode the people's trust vested in him.
07:02But will this truly help in tackling the criminalization of politics, Mr. Rohadgi,
07:09given the high number of MPs and MLAs we have in the parliament
07:16and also in assemblies across the country who have criminal cases against them?
07:20See, Maria, according to me, having a law saying that only on conviction,
07:29an MP or an MLA is going to be disqualified,
07:34I think that is also too relaxed or lacks a position.
07:41Keeping in view, as I told you,
07:42that a normal trial may take five or ten years
07:45and then even a judgment of conviction can be,
07:50in rare circumstances, suspended by the higher court.
07:53And then you can jolly well carry on for 10, 20, or 25 years.
07:57According to me, keeping in view the long delays in our system
08:01and reaching the end of the road of conviction,
08:04taking so long,
08:05maybe one needs to have a look at the election law
08:09and find an intermediate point
08:13at which the disqualification will occur.
08:18It could well be framing of a charge,
08:22post a charge sheet by the competent court
08:25in an offense punishable with seven years or more,
08:29something like that,
08:30so that the taint of the disqualification
08:36or the fear of the law...
08:38I mean, if you are going to look only at a conviction
08:41after 10 years or 15 years,
08:44then there is no fear of the law.
08:47You know, everybody in this country
08:48violates traffic signals with impunity,
08:51but the same person who travels and goes abroad
08:54and drives a car in the U.S.,
08:57he will dare not violate a traffic signal
09:00because of harsh and swift penalties.
09:03Therefore, you need to have the fear of the law.
09:07You need to have a re-look at the whole system.
09:09Not only this law which is coming.
09:13These are all knee-jerk reactions.
09:15Look at revamping the entire criminal justice system
09:18where it can't take 10 years for a trial.
09:21You know, I think the debate should be more
09:24on the larger issues
09:25than only looking at this aspect of the law.
09:30Let me sum up this conversation with you,
09:33Mr. Rohadgi, with my last question.
09:36The opposition is saying
09:37that this bill distorts parliamentary democracy.
09:41You are of the opinion
09:41that there is a need for a larger debate.
09:44What are the key aspects, do you think,
09:46which should be debated?
09:47To me, the larger debate, as I said,
09:52is revamping the criminal justice system.
09:56The government has taken one step
09:58in that direction
10:00by revamping our criminal laws,
10:03procedural and substantive,
10:05by trying to bring in Indian notions
10:10of justice and criminality and crimes.
10:14Because we were following 150-year-old
10:16British notions of criminality.
10:18That is a welcome step.
10:20But that step has not really,
10:23in my humble opinion,
10:25addressed the point
10:26that the trials take an interminable
10:29long period of time.
10:32Our courts are clogged.
10:33I see it every day.
10:37And the real problem is
10:38that the prosecuting agency
10:40and the investigative agency
10:42is one and the same,
10:44namely the police.
10:46Imagine a police sub-inspector
10:48who is investigating a crime,
10:52who is also doing police duties,
10:55who is also writing a police diary,
10:59and he is also looking after
11:01the prosecution in the court
11:04by going to the prosecution council
11:06or the lawyer,
11:08getting the witnesses,
11:09trying to see that they are examined.
11:11You can't have three or four roles into one.
11:14In many countries,
11:15the roles are separate.
11:16So you have to start from that.
11:18You must have a separate prosecution agency
11:20specialized,
11:22a separate investigative agency specialized,
11:24and a normal police
11:26for policing affairs
11:27in the city or on the roads.
11:30You start with that.
11:31And then try and tell the court
11:34that we are swiftly investigating.
11:37I can tell you,
11:38Maria,
11:38that I am doing cases
11:40where investigation is not complete
11:42for 10 years,
11:4412 years.
11:45Okay.
11:46If you can't complete investigation
11:48in 10,
11:4912 years,
11:50you are going to start
11:52framing of a charge
11:54after 10 years.
11:55God knows how many witnesses
11:57are available,
11:57how many are alive,
11:59how many will remember
12:00what happened.
12:02So therefore,
12:03you know,
12:03it's a complete pitfall.
12:06You have to start
12:07from the beginning,
12:08strengthen up,
12:09shore up the system,
12:10and then only
12:11there will be some fear
12:12of the law.
12:13And then all these laws
12:14will fall into place.
12:16That's what you have to do.
12:18All right,
12:19Mr. Mukul Rohadgi,
12:20always a pleasure
12:21speaking to you, sir.
12:22Thank you for speaking
12:23to India today.
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