00:00Marwan Bishara is Al Jazeera's senior political analyst joining us live now from London.
00:05Marwan, the Palestinians, the journalists, the most recognized international experts,
00:10the doctors, medical staff, they are all saying it's famine.
00:13On the other hand, you have Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu calling it a lie,
00:18and within Israel, an attempt to discredit the science behind the assessment to say that it's famine.
00:24Who do you think Netanyahu is speaking to here, and who's buying it?
00:30Well, I think he's mainly concerned by Western public opinion, and notably that in the United States.
00:42In fact, a few months ago, he told one of his close allies that he understands that those who support Israel
00:52don't want to see images of starving children, because anything but that,
00:58as far as those who support Netanyahu and his fascist government.
01:02It seems dead children are okay, but starving children not so much, because you continue to see their images.
01:09But be that as it may, after so many years of taking Western public opinion, Western media, and Western leaders for a ride,
01:19I think Netanyahu thinks they are stupid, and I'm not being funny.
01:24Netanyahu thinks that Western leaders, and generally Western public opinion, especially America, is a dummy,
01:34that you can move them, you know, this way and that way, you can manipulate them, you can shake them down.
01:40And clearly, the targeting that way, you know, pushes any Western journalist now to say,
01:49when they are at the press conference at the United Nations, to say, hey, but wait, Israel says there is no famine.
01:54Right? So there's nothing to lose for the Israeli leaders, but to continue to peddle these sorts of lies and deceiving lines in order to put more pressures.
02:06And I think a lot of Western journalists, or at least a lot of Western media outlets, unfortunately, are falling for it.
02:13Either they feel that they are threatened by Israel lobby types, or they are afraid to be called anti-Semites, as Netanyahu has been doing, right?
02:23He's been even calling Western leaders or accusing them of inflaming anti-Semitism.
02:30Marwan, we're seeing the protests that are happening in Israel.
02:34Last week saw some of the biggest in the country, a nationwide strike.
02:38But now we're also seeing, let's say, more Palestinian Israelis, those are Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, coming out and joining those protests.
02:48They were scared in the beginning, I remember from my time there, to be seen publicly doing so.
02:53But now there seems to be more unification there.
02:56Look, I think there are two camps in Israel, and these two camps are not pro-Palestinian or anti-Palestinian, or pro-famine or anti-famine.
03:08That's not what it is.
03:10But there are two camps in Israel, and they have a sort of a long tradition.
03:13One is more liberal, one is more fanatic, conservative.
03:17One is more secular, and other is more religious.
03:21One is more surrounded in Tel Aviv and its surroundings.
03:24One is more gathered in Jerusalem, and so on and so forth.
03:27So it's divided.
03:29And the fanatics who are ruling in Israel, their camp feeds on war.
03:36It feeds on starving the Palestinians.
03:39They feed on it.
03:40They feed on destruction in Gaza.
03:43The other camp does not, necessarily.
03:46And if their reputation is going to be solid around the world, they're not going to be happy, because they do business around the world.
03:52Tel Aviv, unlike Jerusalem, is open to, you know, Western and international public opinion.
03:59They do business around the world.
04:01They don't like it when Israel is accused of, you know, causing famine or burning children alive and what have you.
04:08And over the last several months, we've seen this camp, that now Netanyahu wants to call a lot among them as reservists back to serve in Gaza.
04:19They are not happy about it.
04:20They're tired of the war.
04:22They're tired of the accusations against them and the increasing isolation.
04:28And they don't want to serve in Gaza again.
04:30And hence, they are creating an atmosphere in places like Tel Aviv or Haifa and other cities, whereby more and more progressives or Palestinians holding Israeli citizenship feel a bit more safer to be industry and to call out Israeli government for causing starvation in Gaza.
04:51Right. And Marwan, global protests we've been seeing throughout, but increasingly so, more people joining.
04:58Is this, do you think, a tipping point bolstered by this famine declaration, perhaps a global movement now?
05:05You know, one would have to give up on humanity if the first genocide of the 21st century, the first famine of the 21st century that unravels on TV screens everywhere in the world.
05:24One would have to give up on humanity and on the international system if nothing is going to give it.
05:32Right. Something got to give here.
05:34Something got to give.
05:36Now, we've seen some movement, but it's still timid.
05:40It's still, you know, Western leaders are still coy.
05:42And other leaders, whether they are Chinese or Russians and Brazilians and South Africans, Indians or whatever you, either coy or indifferent.
05:50And certainly the Arab leaders that need to step it up are not stepping it up.
05:55So one would wish that now that the Palestinians are dying by the dozens, perhaps more, you know, unfortunately, hopefully not in the coming days and weeks, that there will be a more decisive response on the part of members of the UN Security Council.
06:16So now that we're approaching, we're a month away from the UN summit, that there will be movement, not just diplomatic movement, strategic movement, slapping Israel down for its impunity, slapping Israel down for taking the world for a ride.
06:31Right. Slapping Israel down for its war crimes, crimes of starvation and crimes of genocide.
06:37Okay. Thank you very much, Marwan.
06:39Bashar, our senior political analyst there.
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