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00:00:00Subscribe on Apple Podcasts.
00:00:09It is so good to be with you on a Monday.
00:00:11I'm Arielle Reshef, in for Katie Turr today.
00:00:14President Trump is keeping up the pressure,
00:00:16attacking the latest jobs report
00:00:18and the now former head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics,
00:00:22whom he fired on Friday.
00:00:24The president claiming, again, without evidence,
00:00:26that the July jobs report was, quote, rigged.
00:00:30Trump also sowing doubt, again, with no evidence,
00:00:33around the good jobs report released
00:00:35during former President Biden's term.
00:00:37But when the reports were in favor of Trump,
00:00:40he pointed to the jobs data
00:00:42as a sign his administration was doing good work,
00:00:45a point my colleague, Kristen Welker,
00:00:47addressed with the director
00:00:48of the National Economic Council, Kevin Hassett,
00:00:51on Meet the Press.
00:00:53President Trump himself was happy to accept
00:00:56the jobs numbers issued under McIntyre for his leadership
00:00:59when the numbers were good.
00:01:00Take a listen to what he said in the past.
00:01:03The numbers were much better, as you know,
00:01:05than projected by the media.
00:01:09In three months, we have created 350,000 jobs.
00:01:13Think of that.
00:01:14A lot of jobs have been created.
00:01:15That's what happened this morning.
00:01:18So is the president prepared to fire anyone
00:01:22who reports data that he disagrees with?
00:01:24No, absolutely not.
00:01:26The president wants his own people there
00:01:27so that when we see the numbers,
00:01:29they're more transparent and more reliable.
00:01:32And if there are big changes and big revisions,
00:01:34we expect more big revisions for the jobs data
00:01:37in September, for example,
00:01:38that we want to know why.
00:01:39We want people to explain it to us.
00:01:41Critics of the president's move
00:01:43to fire the Bureau of Labor Statistics commissioner
00:01:45are concerned it will undermine the credibility
00:01:48of a trusted, nonpartisan government agency.
00:01:51Even some GOP senators are doubtful of Trump's reason
00:01:55and are expressing concern about the impact.
00:01:57If the president is firing the statistician
00:02:02because the numbers are unreliable now,
00:02:07that would be good to know.
00:02:09But if the president is firing the statistician
00:02:13because he doesn't like the numbers,
00:02:16but they are accurate, then that's a problem.
00:02:20You have to look somewhere for objective statistics.
00:02:24If the people providing the statistics are fired,
00:02:27it makes it much harder to make judgments
00:02:29that the statistics won't be placed on us.
00:02:32It was just fired because the president
00:02:34or whoever decided to fire the director
00:02:37just did it because they didn't like the numbers.
00:02:39They had to grow up.
00:02:41Skepticism there from some in his own party.
00:02:43So joining us now, NBC News,
00:02:45senior policy reporter Shannon Pettypiece,
00:02:47NBC News White House correspondent Vaughn Hilliard,
00:02:49and chief economist for Navy Federal Credit Union
00:02:52and Washington Post columnist Heather Long.
00:02:54Vaughn, starting with you,
00:02:55the administration is defending the firing
00:02:57of the BLS commissioner.
00:02:59What is their rationale?
00:03:01Well, this is, number one, a blatant political move
00:03:03by the president of the United States, Ariel,
00:03:05because the president has directly accused
00:03:07the commissioner of manipulating the data,
00:03:09yet he and the White House have provided
00:03:11no such evidence, saying that they are pointing
00:03:13to the last months of May, June, and July
00:03:17and the Friday jobs report.
00:03:19That down the number of jobs that were created
00:03:23over the course of those first two months
00:03:24by more than 200,000 jobs.
00:03:26Of course, revisions are always typically a part
00:03:30of a monthly jobs report.
00:03:32And for this White House, there has been a departure
00:03:35from any acknowledgement of that here.
00:03:38And the president, for one, is suggesting
00:03:41that he may very well name a new commissioner
00:03:44to the Bureau of Labor Statistics by as soon
00:03:47as this Wednesday or Thursday.
00:03:49At the same time, his chief economics advisor,
00:03:52Kevin Hassett, facing questions from our colleague,
00:03:54Kristen Welker, about what the other 2,000 individuals,
00:03:58federal workers that are working in the Bureau
00:04:00of Labor Statistics, how they should perceive the firing
00:04:02and whether their jobs are on the line as well
00:04:05for going through and reporting numbers
00:04:07that the president may not like.
00:04:09Take a listen.
00:04:09But just to be very clear, I mean,
00:04:13there are 40 people put these numbers together.
00:04:16Is the president planning to fire all 40 people
00:04:18involved in putting these numbers together?
00:04:20We're going to try to get the numbers
00:04:21so that they're transparent and reliable.
00:04:24Do you have any hard evidence
00:04:25that these numbers were wrong?
00:04:28Yeah, there is very hard evidence
00:04:30that we're looking at the biggest revisions since 1968.
00:04:33Are you going to present those?
00:04:33Are you going to present that evidence?
00:04:33If you look at the number itself, it is the evidence.
00:04:35But just saying it's an outlier is not evidence, Mr. Hassett.
00:04:38It's a historically important outlier.
00:04:41It's something that's unprecedented.
00:04:42It's so unprecedented.
00:04:43It's still not evidence, though.
00:04:44I've been looking at it for 40 years
00:04:45and I'm like, it must be a typo.
00:04:47Now, monthly reports have always been preliminary
00:04:50for that prior month.
00:04:52And then revisions are provided
00:04:54for the two months prior to that
00:04:56because the Bureau of Labor Statistics
00:04:58continues to go through household surveys,
00:05:00but also the surveying of U.S. government agencies
00:05:03and employers to give a better
00:05:06and be able to better ascertain
00:05:08the actual employment nationally.
00:05:10They also, we should note,
00:05:12the Bureau of Labor Statistics
00:05:13also establishes the Consumer Price Index,
00:05:15tracking the price of goods and inflation.
00:05:18So this is an agency that has a very important role
00:05:21in the president of the United States on Friday
00:05:23moving forward with this firing of the top official
00:05:26despite providing no evidence
00:05:28that she intentionally manipulated any data.
00:05:30That's some interesting and important context there, Vaughn.
00:05:33And Heather, to that end,
00:05:34we're talking about a downward revision
00:05:36of roughly 258,000 jobs.
00:05:40To many, that doesn't seem like a rounding error.
00:05:42Just how common is it to see those dramatic revisions
00:05:45like we saw in the May and June report?
00:05:47And does this raise flags to you?
00:05:51It does not raise flags for me.
00:05:53There's really no basis for the firing
00:05:56that happened on Friday.
00:05:57What people need to understand is
00:06:00the way that this jobs data comes through
00:06:03is the Bureau of Labor Statistics
00:06:04is requesting information on hiring and firing
00:06:08from 121,000 different establishments,
00:06:12so firms, organizations, nonprofits, and whatnot.
00:06:16And in the first initial go that came out on August 1st,
00:06:19only about 40% of those organizations
00:06:22are responding right away.
00:06:24But then over the next eight weeks,
00:06:27more and more organizations respond.
00:06:30Up to 90% will eventually send their data in.
00:06:33And that's why revisions happen.
00:06:35That's why you want to see revisions,
00:06:38because we are literally getting more data
00:06:40that's coming in in real time for the economy.
00:06:44It was a very large downward revision.
00:06:47I would just point out that we typically see
00:06:50large downward revisions in recessions
00:06:53or in the lead up to recessions.
00:06:55Now, no one's saying that we're in a recession right now,
00:06:58but that is, I think, what alarmed many on Wall Street
00:07:02and across the economy.
00:07:05People like me who watch closely
00:07:06is we do see revisions that are big and downward
00:07:10when the economy is really rapidly weakening,
00:07:15which could be the case right now.
00:07:18So to put a fine point on it,
00:07:20you don't agree with Hassett that the downward revision,
00:07:24that dramatic downward revision,
00:07:25is evidence that there was some kind of rigged data here.
00:07:28Heather?
00:07:29I do not.
00:07:30And that's why across the political spectrum,
00:07:32you played a bunch of those clips.
00:07:34People are speaking out,
00:07:35saying that the United States
00:07:37has the gold standard for economic data.
00:07:41And what was going on here
00:07:42was a very healthy and normal practice
00:07:46as more data, as better data was coming in.
00:07:50And that's what we want to see.
00:07:52And the question now, of course,
00:07:54is who will the president put
00:07:56to take over this organization?
00:07:59Somebody texted me half-jokingly,
00:08:00maybe Marco Rubio can get another job here.
00:08:03And while that's funny-
00:08:04He's pretty busy, Heather.
00:08:06He's busy already.
00:08:08And that's not what we want to see.
00:08:09You know, people need reliable economic data,
00:08:13especially right now.
00:08:14This is a very confusing time for the U.S. economy.
00:08:17I keep calling it a K-shaped economy.
00:08:19A lot of middle-class and moderate-income Americans
00:08:21are struggling,
00:08:22and we need to understand
00:08:23the extent of that struggle.
00:08:26Shannon, help us understand
00:08:27what the labor market data
00:08:29is actually used for,
00:08:30and how could this erosion of public trust
00:08:33in that data going forward
00:08:34make an impact?
00:08:37Yeah, I mean, I think for some people
00:08:38it might feel like we're talking about
00:08:40some sort of insidery, baseball,
00:08:42wonkish government thing,
00:08:44but this data really touches
00:08:46and has an impact
00:08:47on a lot of people's lives.
00:08:49It is used and looked at by the Federal Reserve
00:08:51when trying to decide
00:08:53whether or not to lower interest rates.
00:08:55It is used to determine
00:08:56Social Security cost of living increases,
00:08:58so how much or whether
00:09:00your Social Security check
00:09:02is going to go up next year.
00:09:04It is used by businesses
00:09:05to make hiring decisions.
00:09:07It tracks the economy.
00:09:09It can be used to determine
00:09:10whether or not we have entered a recession.
00:09:13And big picture by investors,
00:09:15particularly outside of the U.S.,
00:09:17it is used to make a gauge
00:09:19of the health of the U.S. economy.
00:09:22And when you look at other countries,
00:09:24there's a lot of countries
00:09:25with good, solid economic data
00:09:26like this as well,
00:09:27but there's others
00:09:28that don't have such great
00:09:30and reliable data.
00:09:31And those countries' investors
00:09:33have said they have hesitation
00:09:35about putting their money in there,
00:09:37making financial decisions.
00:09:38And that's what has kind of helped
00:09:40make the U.S.
00:09:41one of these gold standards
00:09:42for investors,
00:09:44is because of the reliability
00:09:45of our data.
00:09:47Is it perfect?
00:09:48No.
00:09:49To Heather's point,
00:09:50there is sort of an old school,
00:09:53slightly arcane process
00:09:54that is used to collect this data
00:09:56of survey responses
00:09:57and in-person interviews coming in.
00:09:59And sometimes it gets revised
00:10:00and sometimes it's significantly revised.
00:10:03But it has proven
00:10:04to be a tried and true method.
00:10:07There are areas where economists say
00:10:08it could be improved on.
00:10:10There could be more funding,
00:10:11more resources put towards it.
00:10:12But it really has a big influence
00:10:15on a lot of people's lives.
00:10:16And that's what has so many economists
00:10:18and investors and businesses
00:10:20concerned right now
00:10:21about the possibility
00:10:23that we could be seeing
00:10:24some level of government interference
00:10:26here in the president,
00:10:27quote unquote,
00:10:28calling these data now rigged.
00:10:31Heather, are there safeguards
00:10:32in place to ensure
00:10:33that if the president ends up
00:10:34installing someone
00:10:35that he approves of
00:10:37for that position
00:10:38that the data can't be manipulated?
00:10:39Well, the safeguard
00:10:43is kind of what Kristen Welker
00:10:44was talking about.
00:10:45And that is one person alone
00:10:47does not make this number
00:10:50and make this report
00:10:51that's coming out.
00:10:52It is a team of dozens of people.
00:10:55There is a standard process in place,
00:10:57basically like an algorithm
00:10:58that's aggregating
00:10:59all the data coming in
00:11:01from across the country.
00:11:02So unless the new person coming in
00:11:06is going to really tamper with code,
00:11:09it seems unlikely
00:11:10that it would be manipulated right away.
00:11:13But again, going forward,
00:11:15what someone could do
00:11:16months and months in that role,
00:11:18possibly delaying data,
00:11:20possibly requesting
00:11:21some of these algorithm changes,
00:11:23that's the real fear going forward.
00:11:26And for Americans
00:11:26who are actually looking at this data
00:11:28and not the politics of it all,
00:11:30it is a tough jobs market out there.
00:11:32Heather, why is that?
00:11:33Why is it so tough
00:11:34to find a job right now?
00:11:36Well, that's pretty clear.
00:11:37The uncertainty from the tariffs
00:11:39is making businesses
00:11:42not want to invest
00:11:43outside of AI data centers.
00:11:45They're not investing a lot
00:11:46in new equipment
00:11:47and new factories.
00:11:49And at the same time,
00:11:50they're not hiring
00:11:51a lot of workers.
00:11:52I've been calling this
00:11:53a frozen job market
00:11:54for the past six months.
00:11:56It was heavily reliant
00:11:57solely on health care,
00:11:59hiring and education.
00:12:00And now we're pretty much down
00:12:02to only education,
00:12:04excuse me,
00:12:04only health care jobs.
00:12:05If you're not looking
00:12:06for a health care job,
00:12:07good luck.
00:12:08It's tough.
00:12:09Oh boy, tough landscape out there.
00:12:11Shannon Pettypiece,
00:12:11Vaughn Hilliard and Heather Long,
00:12:13thank you all very much.
00:12:15Up next,
00:12:15why this week is critical
00:12:17for the possible release
00:12:18of the Epstein files,
00:12:20plus the political showdown
00:12:21happening right now in Texas
00:12:23as its governor threatens
00:12:25dozens of state Democrats
00:12:26who have fled the state.
00:12:27We'll talk to them,
00:12:29to one of them,
00:12:30who's out of the state right now,
00:12:32back here in 90 seconds.
00:12:33Stay with us.
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00:14:09Today is the deadline
00:14:11for the Trump administration
00:14:12to clarify
00:14:13whether it is seeking
00:14:14to unseal
00:14:14grand jury exhibits
00:14:15in the Jeffrey Epstein case
00:14:17or just testimony.
00:14:19It comes days
00:14:20after Epstein's
00:14:21co-conspirator,
00:14:21Ghislaine Maxwell,
00:14:22was moved
00:14:23to a minimum security
00:14:24women's prison camp
00:14:25in Texas.
00:14:26Joining us now,
00:14:27MSNBC justice
00:14:28and intelligence correspondent
00:14:29Ken Delanian.
00:14:30And Ken,
00:14:30what kind of material
00:14:31may be in these
00:14:32grand jury files
00:14:33and is there anything new?
00:14:35What's the likelihood
00:14:36also that the judge
00:14:37is going to let us see it?
00:14:38So this question,
00:14:39Ariel,
00:14:40of transcripts
00:14:41versus exhibits
00:14:41is actually a huge
00:14:42distinction
00:14:43because the transcripts
00:14:44are just what the witnesses
00:14:46told the grand jury.
00:14:47And the witnesses
00:14:47were just the FBI agents
00:14:49or in one case
00:14:50an NYPD detective
00:14:51who were sort of
00:14:52narrating and going through
00:14:53what their investigation
00:14:55found.
00:14:55That's very common
00:14:56in grand juries.
00:14:57It wasn't like there
00:14:58were the actual witnesses
00:14:59in the investigation.
00:15:00It's the investigating
00:15:01case agent.
00:15:02The exhibits,
00:15:03however,
00:15:04would cover all the
00:15:05information and material
00:15:06that the FBI gathered up
00:15:08as part of its investigation.
00:15:09That could be photos.
00:15:10That could be videos.
00:15:11That could be travel records,
00:15:12emails,
00:15:13text messages.
00:15:14That's where the bulk
00:15:15of the information
00:15:16would be.
00:15:17Of course,
00:15:18a lot of that
00:15:18would be very invasive
00:15:19of people's privacy.
00:15:20And so it's really
00:15:22not the kind of thing
00:15:23that a judge
00:15:24usually releases.
00:15:26But first,
00:15:27we need to see
00:15:27whether the Justice Department
00:15:28is even seeking
00:15:29the release of that material.
00:15:30All right.
00:15:31Well, I know you'll
00:15:31keep an eye on that part.
00:15:32And Gillian Maxwell,
00:15:33as we've been reporting,
00:15:34was moved from Florida
00:15:36to a minimum security
00:15:38women's prison
00:15:38in Texas on Friday.
00:15:40And that has drawn
00:15:40condemnation from
00:15:41several of her victims.
00:15:43I actually spoke
00:15:44to a lawyer who
00:15:45represented nine
00:15:46of those women.
00:15:46And here is what he said.
00:15:49Let's get one thing
00:15:50straight.
00:15:50Gillian Maxwell
00:15:51is a convicted
00:15:52sexual predator.
00:15:55She is a serial liar
00:15:56and a sexual predator.
00:15:58So any preferential treatment
00:16:00is seen as a slap
00:16:01in the face to victims.
00:16:03It's sad that,
00:16:03unfortunately,
00:16:04you've got this woman,
00:16:05Gillian Maxwell,
00:16:06who wants to lie
00:16:07and cover up
00:16:08and not talk about
00:16:09what happened.
00:16:10So we know, Ken,
00:16:11that speculation
00:16:11is just swirling
00:16:13about a possible
00:16:14presidential pardon
00:16:15for Maxwell.
00:16:16Trump has said
00:16:16that he's allowed
00:16:17to do it,
00:16:18hasn't committed
00:16:19to doing it just yet.
00:16:20Is there any indication
00:16:21about whether
00:16:22this move
00:16:23to a softer prison
00:16:24is sort of a step
00:16:25toward clemency?
00:16:26Well, here's what we know.
00:16:27The White House
00:16:28is saying this is just routine.
00:16:30People are moved
00:16:30all the time
00:16:31for security reasons.
00:16:32But the Bureau of Prisons
00:16:33will not explain
00:16:34why they did this.
00:16:35And what we learned
00:16:36is that in order
00:16:37to facilitate this move,
00:16:38they had to waive
00:16:39a rule that says
00:16:40that a sexual offender
00:16:42cannot be transferred
00:16:43to a minimum security
00:16:45prison camp,
00:16:46which is what this facility
00:16:47in Texas is.
00:16:48And we talked
00:16:49to a prison consultant
00:16:49who said he had never
00:16:50seen this happen before.
00:16:52So this is a big deal.
00:16:53They gave her
00:16:54a huge concession here.
00:16:55The quality of inmates
00:16:56she's going to be serving
00:16:57with down there in Texas
00:16:58are much different
00:16:58from the low security
00:17:00prison in Florida.
00:17:01And so it is a change
00:17:04of her circumstances
00:17:05in a positive way.
00:17:06And the Trump administration
00:17:07has not explained
00:17:08why they felt necessary
00:17:10to grant that.
00:17:11It is curious as to
00:17:12what she may have told
00:17:13the DOJ.
00:17:14And the timing of that move
00:17:15has a lot of people
00:17:16asking questions.
00:17:17Kendallanian,
00:17:18thank you so much.
00:17:19Up next,
00:17:20the consequential vote
00:17:21in Texas,
00:17:21which could have
00:17:22a ripple effect
00:17:23across the nation.
00:17:24Democrats in the Lone Star State
00:17:26are blocking that move
00:17:27by fleeing the state.
00:17:29We'll talk to a state
00:17:30representative,
00:17:30James Tallarico,
00:17:32next.
00:17:35It looks like
00:17:36an ordinary staircase,
00:17:37but as you age
00:17:38with occasional nerve discomfort
00:17:40that can feel like stabbing
00:17:41or pins and needles
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00:21:34Breaking news.
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00:22:06Start the clock.
00:22:07In about 90 minutes,
00:22:09a special session
00:22:10of the Texas State Legislature
00:22:12is scheduled to get underway.
00:22:13And the problem is
00:22:14Democratic lawmakers
00:22:15have fled the state.
00:22:17Dozens of them
00:22:18are now in Illinois
00:22:19and right here in New York.
00:22:20They skip town
00:22:21to delay a Republican push
00:22:23to redraw
00:22:23congressional districts,
00:22:25potentially gerrymandering
00:22:27the Texas map
00:22:28to add an additional
00:22:29five seats
00:22:30into the red column.
00:22:32With the Democrats
00:22:33out of the state, though,
00:22:34Republicans won't have
00:22:35the number of lawmakers
00:22:36needed to hold a vote.
00:22:37Texas Governor Greg Abbott
00:22:39says the Democratic exodus
00:22:40may be illegal,
00:22:42even threatening extradition,
00:22:43expulsion,
00:22:44possibly arrest.
00:22:45U.S. House Minority Leader
00:22:47Hakeem Jeffries
00:22:48responded to that
00:22:49on MSNBC this morning.
00:22:52Well, the Texas governor
00:22:52is a cowardly, fake bully.
00:22:56He was ordered
00:22:56by Donald Trump
00:22:57to convene
00:22:58a special session
00:23:00of the legislature
00:23:01in order to gerrymander
00:23:03the Texas congressional map
00:23:04and try to rig
00:23:05the midterm elections.
00:23:07Democrats are going
00:23:08to respond
00:23:09from coast to coast
00:23:11and at all points
00:23:13in between
00:23:14to this effort
00:23:15to steal
00:23:16the midterm elections.
00:23:17So let's talk about it.
00:23:19Joining us now,
00:23:19NBC News correspondent
00:23:21Shaquille Brewster
00:23:21in Chicago.
00:23:22And Shaq,
00:23:23why did Texas Democrats
00:23:24come to Illinois
00:23:25and how long
00:23:26do you think
00:23:26that they're going
00:23:27to stay outside Texas?
00:23:30Well, when the state party
00:23:32chair was asked
00:23:32about that
00:23:33just yesterday,
00:23:34last night,
00:23:35after they got off the plane
00:23:36at that press conference,
00:23:37he was asked
00:23:37about the long game.
00:23:38He essentially said
00:23:39he doesn't know
00:23:40they're going to be
00:23:40taking it day by day.
00:23:42But when you listen
00:23:43to what these lawmakers
00:23:44are saying,
00:23:44if you look at their schedule,
00:23:46it's clear that
00:23:46they're not planning
00:23:47to be back
00:23:48before that 3 p.m.
00:23:50central time deadline.
00:23:51That's despite the fact
00:23:52that you have
00:23:53Governor Greg Abbott,
00:23:54as you mentioned,
00:23:55threatening arrest,
00:23:56threatening them punishments
00:23:58and civil penalties as well
00:24:00if they don't make it
00:24:01back in time.
00:24:02I want you to hear
00:24:03what we're hearing
00:24:04from them in their tone.
00:24:06They had a press conference
00:24:07in New York,
00:24:08a smaller group of them,
00:24:09where they met
00:24:10with New York Governor
00:24:12Kathy Hochul.
00:24:12I want you to listen
00:24:13to what they're saying
00:24:14as they're not in Texas.
00:24:18I'm a lawyer.
00:24:20A part of my practice
00:24:21is criminal defense work.
00:24:23There is no felony
00:24:24in the Texas penal code
00:24:26for what he says.
00:24:28So, respectfully,
00:24:29he's making up some s***.
00:24:31Okay?
00:24:31He's trying to get sound bites,
00:24:33and he has no legal mechanism.
00:24:36Democrats and some
00:24:37of the editorial boards
00:24:38and some of the very newspapers
00:24:39who are here
00:24:40keep telling us
00:24:42to play fair.
00:24:44And it's very difficult
00:24:45to say play fair
00:24:46when your opponents
00:24:47are playing dirty.
00:24:48The playing field
00:24:48has changed,
00:24:49not just for Democrats,
00:24:51but all Americans.
00:24:52And it's time
00:24:53to meet them
00:24:54on the new field.
00:24:58And I think
00:24:59something that you're seeing
00:25:00when you listen
00:25:00to those lawmakers,
00:25:01both from Texas
00:25:02and New York,
00:25:03is that they're trying
00:25:04to nationalize this
00:25:05as much as possible.
00:25:06They're saying
00:25:06that this is not just
00:25:07about what's happening
00:25:08in Texas,
00:25:09that this is about
00:25:10stopping President Trump,
00:25:11that this is about
00:25:12protecting the democracy.
00:25:14And they're asking
00:25:14for help
00:25:15from Democrats,
00:25:16from people
00:25:17from all around the country
00:25:18as they try their best
00:25:19to stop that Texas map,
00:25:21the new maps,
00:25:22from passing
00:25:23by leaving the state.
00:25:25Yeah, and we saw
00:25:26Hakeem Jeffries
00:25:26now weighing in on that.
00:25:28Shaq, thank you so much
00:25:29for your reporting
00:25:29there from Chicago.
00:25:31And joining us now,
00:25:31Democratic State Representative
00:25:32James Tallarico,
00:25:34who represents District 50,
00:25:36which includes
00:25:36much of Austin.
00:25:38He joins us now
00:25:38from Illinois.
00:25:40Why do you think
00:25:41that your fellow Democrats
00:25:42think that this is
00:25:44the best way
00:25:44to push through,
00:25:45push back against Republicans
00:25:47that are trying
00:25:48to redistrict?
00:25:49Well, usually
00:25:50state legislators
00:25:51adjust district boundaries
00:25:53at the beginning
00:25:54of a decade
00:25:55to account for
00:25:56population changes
00:25:57after a new census.
00:25:59Texas Republicans
00:26:00did that in 2021,
00:26:01four years ago,
00:26:03and they gerrymandered.
00:26:04The map,
00:26:04just like both parties
00:26:06gerrymandered
00:26:06in different states.
00:26:08And we didn't break quorum
00:26:09during that gerrymander.
00:26:11We're breaking quorum now
00:26:13because this is different.
00:26:14Trump has asked
00:26:15those same Texas Republicans
00:26:17to redraw the Texas maps
00:26:20to get him five more seats.
00:26:22They're doing it
00:26:22in the middle of the decade.
00:26:24This is like two teams
00:26:26coming out of the locker room
00:26:27at halftime
00:26:27of a football game
00:26:28and the team that's ahead
00:26:30saying they want to change
00:26:31the rules in the second half
00:26:32to make sure they win.
00:26:34It's cheating,
00:26:35plain and simple.
00:26:36And if they're going to cheat,
00:26:38we're not going to play.
00:26:39OK, so what about
00:26:40the cheating, though?
00:26:40In an interview
00:26:41with the Bulwark earlier,
00:26:42you called on
00:26:43California Democrats
00:26:44to begin redrawing
00:26:45their state map
00:26:46immediately to counter
00:26:47Texas Republicans
00:26:48and what they're doing.
00:26:49Wouldn't it make it
00:26:50impossible for Democrats
00:26:51to have the high ground here
00:26:53and argue that this
00:26:54is not politically motivated?
00:26:55If one side cheats,
00:26:58all bets are off.
00:26:59I would prefer that
00:27:00no states are gerrymandered.
00:27:02That's why I've put forward
00:27:03a bill in the Texas
00:27:05House of Representatives
00:27:06to have a citizen-led,
00:27:08independent redistricting process
00:27:09so that voters
00:27:11are choosing their politicians
00:27:12instead of politicians
00:27:13choosing their voters.
00:27:15But the Democratic Party
00:27:16cannot unilaterally disarm.
00:27:19When there's a bully
00:27:20on the playground,
00:27:20you don't lay down
00:27:21and play dead.
00:27:22You look that bully in the eye
00:27:24and you don't blink.
00:27:24Because bullies are a lot
00:27:26weaker than you think.
00:27:27And I believe that
00:27:29if these other blue states
00:27:30threaten retaliation
00:27:32in response to Trump's
00:27:33power grab in Texas,
00:27:34that Texas Republicans
00:27:35may back off.
00:27:37They may walk away
00:27:38from the brink.
00:27:39And that way,
00:27:40we could try to get to a place
00:27:41where every state
00:27:42has free and fair elections.
00:27:44I don't know how likely
00:27:45that seems.
00:27:46They seem to be pushing
00:27:47their way through here.
00:27:48And your Republican colleagues
00:27:49in Texas say that
00:27:50their redistricting effort
00:27:52is fair, it's legal,
00:27:53and it's not unlike
00:27:54what Democrats
00:27:55have been doing
00:27:55in blue states.
00:27:56Here's the Republican chair
00:27:58of Texas's
00:27:58redistricting committee.
00:28:01You've got states
00:28:02like California
00:28:03and New York
00:28:04and Illinois
00:28:06that have these
00:28:07really large margins
00:28:08between the percentage
00:28:09of seats they have
00:28:10and the percentage
00:28:10of votes that they're getting.
00:28:12And Texas is
00:28:12underperforming in that.
00:28:13I have not seen
00:28:14any evidence
00:28:15that this map
00:28:16was racially based.
00:28:17What I have seen
00:28:17is evidence
00:28:18that this map
00:28:18was politically based.
00:28:20And that's totally legal,
00:28:21totally allowed,
00:28:22and totally fair.
00:28:23So you did just say
00:28:24it earlier,
00:28:25blue states gerrymander too.
00:28:26In fact,
00:28:27where you are
00:28:28in Illinois,
00:28:29there's an F grade
00:28:30from nonpartisan
00:28:32gerrymandering project.
00:28:33So you're saying
00:28:34that the difference is
00:28:35that they're doing
00:28:37it out of nowhere.
00:28:38What's the rationale
00:28:39to fight fire
00:28:40with fire here?
00:28:42Yeah, exactly.
00:28:43As I mentioned,
00:28:44this is a process
00:28:45that is done
00:28:46at the beginning
00:28:46of the decade.
00:28:47But to do it
00:28:48in the middle
00:28:48of the decade
00:28:49and to do it
00:28:49at the direct request
00:28:51of the president
00:28:51of the United States
00:28:52who's worried
00:28:53about losing
00:28:54his majority
00:28:55in Congress,
00:28:56that is not usual.
00:28:57That is egregious.
00:28:59It is brazen.
00:29:00And we can't
00:29:02become numb to this.
00:29:03I know that the media
00:29:04wants to make this
00:29:05into a typical
00:29:06R versus D thing,
00:29:07a blue team
00:29:08versus a red team.
00:29:09But I think
00:29:10we have to be honest
00:29:11that the Republican Party
00:29:12is led by a president
00:29:13who has shown
00:29:14a complete disregard
00:29:15and disdain
00:29:17for the peaceful
00:29:17transfer of power.
00:29:19And if he is able
00:29:19to hold on to power
00:29:20that goes unchecked,
00:29:22if he doesn't have
00:29:23a Congress
00:29:24that will hold him
00:29:25accountable,
00:29:25I'm worried he may
00:29:26not leave office
00:29:27in 2028.
00:29:28I hope that that
00:29:30is just a fear.
00:29:31But I don't want
00:29:32to even go down
00:29:33that path.
00:29:33We have to have
00:29:34a free and fair midterm.
00:29:37But if Texas is rigged,
00:29:38if red states
00:29:39across the country
00:29:40become rigged
00:29:41ahead of those midterms,
00:29:43we're not going
00:29:43to be able to check
00:29:44power in this country.
00:29:45And that's incredibly
00:29:46dangerous for all of us,
00:29:47not just Democrats,
00:29:48but independents
00:29:49and Republicans too.
00:29:51You and your colleagues
00:29:52have decamped there
00:29:53to Illinois.
00:29:53Are you concerned
00:29:54about the possibility,
00:29:55like the governor
00:29:56is threatened,
00:29:56of extradition,
00:29:57expulsion,
00:29:58even arrest?
00:30:00Well, it's very consistent
00:30:01because by rigging
00:30:03these maps,
00:30:04they are trying
00:30:04to silence
00:30:05the voices of Texans
00:30:06to prevent them
00:30:07from electing
00:30:08representatives
00:30:08of their choice.
00:30:10Now Greg Abbott
00:30:10is saying he will
00:30:11literally remove
00:30:13people's representatives
00:30:13from office.
00:30:14So he's taken a page
00:30:16out of Donald Trump's
00:30:17authoritarian playbook.
00:30:18He does it with less
00:30:19charm and humor
00:30:20and charisma,
00:30:21but it is still
00:30:22the same dangerous
00:30:23playbook that
00:30:24President Trump uses.
00:30:25We have to stand up
00:30:26to it.
00:30:27We cannot become numb.
00:30:28We cannot treat this
00:30:29as business as usual.
00:30:31We have to stand up
00:30:32for the democratic process,
00:30:34for the American experiment,
00:30:35and for the people
00:30:36of this country.
00:30:37Are you going to be
00:30:37watching that hearing
00:30:39at four?
00:30:40Are you going to be
00:30:41watching to see
00:30:41what happens?
00:30:43At three, yes.
00:30:44Yep, I'm going to be
00:30:45watching my colleagues
00:30:46on the House floor,
00:30:47and I pray that
00:30:49they can have the courage
00:30:51to stand up
00:30:52to Donald Trump.
00:30:52I know that my
00:30:53Republican friends
00:30:54are aware
00:30:56that this is bad precedent,
00:30:58that this is
00:30:58a dangerous move,
00:31:00but they lack
00:31:01the fortitude,
00:31:01the courage,
00:31:02to stand up
00:31:03to the leader
00:31:04of their party
00:31:04and the President
00:31:05of the United States.
00:31:06He's trying to mess
00:31:07with Texas,
00:31:08and regardless
00:31:09of your political party,
00:31:10Texans must unite
00:31:11and resist that power
00:31:13and that overreach
00:31:14coming from the Oval Office.
00:31:15This is a Texas-sized fight
00:31:17that is sizing up
00:31:18right now.
00:31:19Texas State Representative
00:31:20James Tallarico,
00:31:21thank you so much
00:31:21for being with us.
00:31:23Up next,
00:31:23chilling images
00:31:24of Israeli hostages
00:31:25in Gaza
00:31:26as the President's envoy
00:31:27hints that plans
00:31:28to get them released
00:31:30may have changed.
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00:36:06Ceasefire talks
00:36:06between Israel and Hamas
00:36:08remain stalled,
00:36:09but new leaked audio
00:36:10of President Trump's
00:36:11Middle East envoy,
00:36:12Steve Witkoff,
00:36:13reveals a dramatically
00:36:14different strategy
00:36:15to negotiations.
00:36:17No peace, no deals.
00:36:19Now,
00:36:20we think that
00:36:21we have to shift
00:36:22this negotiation
00:36:23to all or nothing.
00:36:26Everybody comes home.
00:36:28Witkoff was speaking
00:36:29to families
00:36:30of Israeli hostages.
00:36:32A White House official
00:36:33tells NBC News
00:36:34he is now expected
00:36:35to brief President Trump
00:36:36later today
00:36:36about his trip
00:36:38and the findings.
00:36:39Meanwhile,
00:36:39outrage inside of Israel,
00:36:41around the world as well.
00:36:42It's reached a new level
00:36:44of urgency
00:36:44after Hamas
00:36:45and another militant group
00:36:46released disturbing videos
00:36:48of gaunt hostages
00:36:49struggling to survive.
00:36:51Here,
00:36:51in a screenshot
00:36:52from one of those videos
00:36:53is 24-year-old
00:36:54Eviatar David,
00:36:55who was kidnapped
00:36:5622 months ago
00:36:58and speaks
00:36:58of days without food.
00:37:00We get more now
00:37:01from NBC News correspondent
00:37:03Matt Bradley
00:37:03in Tel Aviv.
00:37:05Yes,
00:37:06we're hearing
00:37:06increasingly loud
00:37:07criticism of Israel
00:37:08over the humanitarian
00:37:09crisis in the Gaza Strip.
00:37:11Hamas
00:37:12and its partners
00:37:13Palestinian Islamic Jihad
00:37:15have released separately
00:37:16videos of captives
00:37:18that have been held
00:37:19by them
00:37:20for the past 22 months
00:37:21ever since those
00:37:22October 7th attacks
00:37:23and they are horrifying.
00:37:25We can't show the videos
00:37:26in full,
00:37:27but we can explain them.
00:37:28They show two captives,
00:37:29both of them in their 20s.
00:37:31Both of them
00:37:31had been kidnapped
00:37:32from that Nova music festival
00:37:34on October 7th.
00:37:35They both show men
00:37:37with their bones
00:37:38sticking out of their skin,
00:37:40both of them begging
00:37:41to be released
00:37:42and describing
00:37:43how they are starving.
00:37:45And in one,
00:37:46we actually see
00:37:47what looks like
00:37:47a sort of calendar menu
00:37:48on the wall
00:37:49that shows that
00:37:49they're only eating rice
00:37:50or lentils every day.
00:37:52Some days,
00:37:52they go with nothing.
00:37:54This desperate situation
00:37:56comes as we're hearing
00:37:56from Hamas
00:37:57that they might be willing
00:37:58to allow for the Red Cross,
00:38:00Red Crescent,
00:38:01to bring in aid
00:38:02to some of these hostages
00:38:04who look to be wasting away.
00:38:06Doctors telling
00:38:07their family members
00:38:08that they are near death
00:38:09and that the effects
00:38:10of the starvation
00:38:11on their bodies
00:38:12might be difficult
00:38:13to reverse
00:38:13even if they are
00:38:15to be freed.
00:38:16But these images
00:38:17have sent Israelis
00:38:18by the thousands
00:38:19back out into the streets
00:38:21over this past weekend
00:38:22demanding a hostage deal,
00:38:24negotiated deal,
00:38:25and an end
00:38:26to the fighting
00:38:27in the Gaza Strip.
00:38:29We also heard
00:38:30from Hamas
00:38:31saying that they are
00:38:32not deliberately trying
00:38:33to starve these hostages.
00:38:34They said
00:38:35these hostages
00:38:36are entitled
00:38:37to the same meager rations
00:38:38that Gazans are getting
00:38:39throughout that enclave.
00:38:41Now, all of this
00:38:42is happening
00:38:42as Steve Witkoff,
00:38:44the president's envoy
00:38:45to the Middle East
00:38:46and to Russia and Ukraine,
00:38:47wrapped up a trip
00:38:48at the end of last week
00:38:49where he actually visited
00:38:50the Gaza Strip
00:38:51to assess the humanitarian
00:38:52crisis there.
00:38:54He also visited
00:38:54with hostage families
00:38:56and there was leaked audio
00:38:58published in Israeli media
00:39:00in which Mr. Witkoff
00:39:01described a new
00:39:03negotiating tactic
00:39:04which looks like
00:39:05a paradigm shift.
00:39:06Those negotiations
00:39:07largely wrapped up
00:39:08about two weeks ago
00:39:09but he said
00:39:10that there's no longer
00:39:11going to be any
00:39:12piecemeal discussions
00:39:13about releasing
00:39:14a few hostages
00:39:15here and there
00:39:16for a little bit of time.
00:39:17Instead, he said,
00:39:18there are going to be
00:39:19all or nothing deals.
00:39:21Now, this is something
00:39:21that the hostage families
00:39:22were not happy to hear about
00:39:23because, of course,
00:39:24all would mean
00:39:25that all of the hostages,
00:39:27there are about 20 of them
00:39:27thought to still be alive,
00:39:29would be released.
00:39:30But the nothing,
00:39:31that's unclear.
00:39:32If there is no
00:39:33negotiated solution
00:39:34to the hostage crisis
00:39:35in the Gaza Strip,
00:39:37that could be bad news
00:39:38for the hostages
00:39:39and for the people of Gaza,
00:39:41both of whom
00:39:41have been suffering now
00:39:43for nearly 22 months.
00:39:46Matt Bradley,
00:39:47thank you
00:39:47and hope has been
00:39:48so elusive.
00:39:49We are going to get more
00:39:49into that in our next hour.
00:39:51But up next,
00:39:52one of President Trump's
00:39:52political enemies
00:39:53faces a federal investigation,
00:39:56what he's accused of doing.
00:39:58We'll talk about it.
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00:44:15What have you learned
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00:44:23making
00:44:24a way
00:44:24of a review
00:44:25that you've
00:44:26and
00:44:27We're glad you're with us. One of the president's most persistent targets,
00:44:36former special counsel Jack Smith, who brought multiple criminal indictments against then-candidate
00:44:40Trump, is now under investigation for alleged violations of the Hatch Act. That law keeps
00:44:46federal workers from using their jobs in government to engage in political activity.
00:44:51Joining us now, MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin and former U.S. attorney in Michigan,
00:44:56Barbara McQuaid. She's also an MSNBC legal analyst. Lisa, just explain to us the claims here,
00:45:01the Hatch Act, how that factors in, and what the administration wants to be investigating.
00:45:07So broadly speaking, Ariel, the Hatch Act forbids federal employees from engaging in electioneering
00:45:13or political activity at their workplaces, or even sometimes at the time that there are employees,
00:45:19even if they're not at their workplace. But it doesn't apply to those who are no longer employees.
00:45:24And historically, Hatch Act violations have been treated with like little slaps on the wrist,
00:45:30particularly during the last Trump administration. Now, of course, the claim is being made that Jack
00:45:35Smith, in investigating and prosecuting President Trump and others in his orbit, was himself engaging
00:45:41in election interference or using the threat of prosecution as a vehicle for interfering with
00:45:47the 2024 election. You remember, Jack Smith was first appointed in November of 2022, almost a full
00:45:54two years before that election, in part because the Department of Justice did not want to be seen
00:46:00as interfering with that election. And therefore, it removed Merrick Garland and others in his
00:46:05leadership chain from overseeing that prosecution, specifically because they did not want to make
00:46:11it too political. What kind of time and resources are channeled into an investigation like this?
00:46:17It's hard to say, because at first, that investigation belongs to a separate government
00:46:22entity called the Office of Special Counsel, not to be confused with the special counsels that are
00:46:28appointed by the attorney general. The Office of Special Counsel is a permanent agency. It
00:46:32oversees whistleblowing complaints. It also oversees things relating to civil service employees who
00:46:40are fired from their jobs. And it looks into violations of the Hatch Act. But I think one of
00:46:45the things that people who have referred this to the Office of Special Counsel are hoping is that it
00:46:50really results in some form of criminal referral. There is no criminal equivalent for Hatch Act
00:46:55violations. But are there criminal acts that could be analogues there, too? Probably so. And I think
00:47:04that's really what the driving force in all of this is. So Lisa touched on it there, Barb. But what's
00:47:10at stake here for Jack Smith? Well, at this stage, probably not much. But as Lisa points out, once you
00:47:17begin investigating somebody, if you unearth any sort of evidence that can morph into a different kind of
00:47:23investigation, a civil case or a criminal case, that puts great exposure on the person who is the
00:47:28target. It is absolute and utter nonsense to suggest that Jack Smith was violating the Hatch Act when he
00:47:34was investigating Donald Trump. When you investigate political people, your work is going to become
00:47:38necessarily political and it is going to perhaps affect political investigations or political elections.
00:47:45That is not what the goal was here, as is obvious from the indictment that was handed up by a federal
00:47:51grand jury. But I think the risk to Jack Smith is that he gets accused of criminal misconduct. And even
00:47:58though I am confident that there are checks in the criminal justice system to prevent his ultimate
00:48:02conviction, it is very unpleasant to be investigated for a crime. You have to use resources to hire an
00:48:09attorney. Your reputation is harmed. You might become the target of threats or harassment. Your family can be
00:48:15harassed. So all of those things can make life very difficult for Jack Smith. And it seems to be exactly what
00:48:21Jack Smith said he was going to do when he campaigned on the theme of retaliating against his rivals.
00:48:27And it can be very expensive as well. Jack Smith is not a government employee anymore. So, Barb, does the OSC even
00:48:33have the authority to investigate him at this point?
00:48:37It really doesn't, but it doesn't seem like that's going to stop things. Now, I suppose to the extent there is
00:48:42anybody in Jack Smith's office or elsewhere who does remain a government employee, that could give them the hook to hang
00:48:50their hat on and say that there was some aspect of this office that was, is still in office. The other
00:48:56thing that I think is always a possibility is a referral to the inspector general's office. The
00:49:01inspector general, of course, looks into claims of fraud, waste, and abuse. And if there is some
00:49:06discovery here that there was an abuse of power, that could open the door to an inspector general
00:49:11investigation. All of these things just leave Jack Smith exposed to what seems to me to be baseless
00:49:17investigations. Barb, this investigation is just adding to the list, adding to the pile that we've
00:49:22seen. We've reported that the FBI is now investigating James Comey, John Brennan. Those are two more
00:49:28officials who, of course, investigated Trump. We also saw the firing of the commissioner of labor
00:49:32statistics. And what does all of this say to you about just how far Trump and his allies will go to
00:49:40prosecute, discredit the people who stand in his way?
00:49:42Well, I think there are two things that are happening. One is an effort to rewrite history,
00:49:47to suggest that these investigations into Donald Trump, even findings against him,
00:49:52were all part of a disinformation campaign. They were all political interference,
00:49:56and they're all false. That is an effort to rewrite history. Even this episode at the Smithsonian to
00:50:02remove references to Donald Trump's impeachment, I think, are all very disturbing efforts to change
00:50:07the narrative right up there with the pardoning of the January 6th defendants. But I think another
00:50:13long-term consequence is the chilling effect it might have on government employees to do their
00:50:17jobs. If you know that the wrath of Donald Trump and his supporters might be directed at you,
00:50:22I could see federal agents or prosecutors shirking their responsibilities to bring cases against
00:50:29powerful people, whether that's Donald Trump or other people in power, for fear that they could be
00:50:33next. I've heard a very cynical phrase in government once that goes, he who does nothing does nothing
00:50:40wrong. And I worry that people who now fear the retaliation of a once-in-former president will
00:50:47choose to do nothing rather than be perceived as having done something wrong. Definitely food for
00:50:52thought. Lisa Rubin, Barbara McQuaid, thank you both. Up next, it's being called a blank check for ICE,
00:50:58the staggering amount of money being given to that agency, and why we don't know exactly where it's
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00:55:07We come on the air with breaking news. We are going to go through this with the available facts.
00:55:12This next domino is getting set up to fall. We are seeing an unprecedented assault on our
00:55:18democratic order. It's not a normal presidency. It's not a normal reality. We are all living in.
00:55:24We have never seen anything like it. Our mission to bring you the truth is more important than ever.
00:55:32It has been a day.
00:55:39When it passed the one big beautiful bill, Congress gave more than $175 billion to the nation's
00:55:45immigration enforcers. That means the money Congress approved for DHS, ICE, and other immigration law
00:55:51enforcement is larger than the annual military budget of every country in the world except for two,
00:55:57the United States and China. ICE alone is getting more than any other law enforcement agency in
00:56:03America. Joining us now, staff writer for the Atlantic, Caitlin Dickerson. And you did a bunch of
00:56:07reporting on this, Caitlin. You call this amount of money mind-boggling, massive blank check to ICE.
00:56:13We're describing it. We were described. Let me just say it this way. Why do you say it like that?
00:56:21Well, I think it's really worth dwelling on the paycheck that's just been handed to the nation's
00:56:28immigration enforcement agencies because there are big numbers that can be hard to wrap your arms
00:56:34around, but they're just unlike anything that we've ever seen before. So ICE, for example, if you take just
00:56:42one immigration enforcement agency, it's going from having a budget of about $8 billion a year
00:56:47to $28 billion, more than tripling. CBP, which works at the border, is going from just under $20
00:56:54to $24 billion. And these aren't agencies that were underfunded in the past. In fact, since 2012,
00:57:02the United States has spent more money on immigration enforcement than on all of its federal law
00:57:09enforcement endeavors aside. So these are agencies that already had bloated budgets and ones that
00:57:16have repeatedly been called out by Congress for mismanaging their budgets up until and including
00:57:22this year, where ICE was way overspending the money that it had. And that had appropriators,
00:57:29Republican and Democrats, very concerned. But when it came time to draft this bill that President Trump
00:57:35wanted passed, Congress seems to have just accepted what the agencies asked for without question
00:57:41and without attaching oversight requirements, which means that we may not ever know exactly where all of
00:57:47these tax dollars go. So as you highlight, Congress has taken issue with ICE's ability or maybe lack thereof
00:57:54to estimate just how much money it really needs to carry out its mission. You say legislators raised
00:57:59alarms about the agency's especially egregious overspending. Where is all that money going?
00:58:06I know you said it's hard for us to know exactly. And what can lawmakers do to rein it in? Can you put
00:58:11that genie back in the bottle now that they have all these funds from the big, beautiful bill?
00:58:16It would be very difficult to put the genie back in the bottle, for example, with detention,
00:58:21which is where a lot of this money is going. And a lot of the historic overspending has taken place.
00:58:27Once ICE makes a new contract with a private prison company to open a detention center,
00:58:35that facility in and of itself becomes kind of a political location and an economic engine they tend
00:58:42to grow in. They tend to be constructed in parts of the country that are rural, that are poor, that
00:58:49don't have a lot of other jobs around. And so you build this big prison and it creates jobs.
00:58:53And you sign a contract that requires a mandatory minimum payment from the federal government,
00:59:00whether or not the beds in the facility are full or not. But you've also got hundreds of people from
00:59:06the surrounding community working there. And that becomes a political issue if ICE wants to then say,
00:59:12you know what, we don't need to expand our detention capacity as much as we thought,
00:59:15or we don't need it anymore. We want to close these facilities now. That creates outrage in
00:59:20communities that needed those jobs. And so that's how the money that goes toward immigration
00:59:25enforcement can be sticky because other groups start to rely on it and then it becomes hard to
00:59:31shrink. And, you know, these private prison companies were not in good shape when President
00:59:38Trump was elected. So President Biden, former President Biden, had signed an executive order
00:59:43directing the Justice Department to not renew any of its contracts with private prison companies
00:59:49for criminal defendants and people convicted of crimes because the administration found that
00:59:56these contracts create a profit-based incentive to incarcerate that was harming American communities
01:00:03and not keeping Americans necessarily safer. There was political pressure that led big banks to say
01:00:09they didn't want to work with private prison companies anymore. That all changed almost
01:00:13overnight after President Trump was elected, partly because it meant the elevation of people with
01:00:20close ties to the Trump administration who work for these companies. And these companies expected
01:00:28rightly, rightly, right away that-
01:00:30Right away that-
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