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Attorney Alan Jackson joins!
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00:00in a case that many in the nation and certainly around here were obsessed with and joining us
00:07this morning on this show for the first time one of her attorneys alan jackson alan good morning
00:14hey greg how are you this morning great to have you on i know it's early out there in california
00:19appreciate you taking the time pleasure i mean i've been trying to get you on since the trial
00:25but i mean i know you you had other things you had to do well you know i need a i need a little i need
00:31a little courting you didn't court me greg come on well i tried um you were uh you took to instagram
00:40over the weekend to say that you're not done yet and the next chapter is coming i know there are
00:48a lot of us who want to know what that means alan well just sort of generally referring to
00:55uh something i'm very excited about which is i've uh i've agreed to join karen and her very capable
01:01defense team in the civil action so i'll be coming back to boston you haven't seen the last of me yet
01:06um and uh the the really good news is i'm going to be bringing elizabeth little with me as well
01:11so um the the band is uh not just staying together getting back together but we're we're intending on
01:19um i'm writing a few new chapters that that legal team you're you're the legal team that you have
01:24joined has sent subpoenas to the mass state police and the norfolk da's office uh seeking information
01:32on witnesses who testified at the trial on michael proctor and on evidence from the federal
01:41investigation we discussed the federal investigation a lot on this show um from your perspective in your
01:48opinion did that federal investigation end uh no i i've never heard of such a thing uh i know what
01:59mr brennan said i know what the the hired gun said in in court about being contacted uh and and there
02:06being a closure to the case i we weren't contacted i was never contacted i've never heard a word of that
02:11directly from the horse's mouth and i've been doing this for a long time and i can tell you it's not a
02:15thing it's just not a greg you just don't do that you as a as a prosecutor uh especially a federal
02:21prosecutor you don't look at the target call the target and say oh yeah we're done we're done here
02:26uh what if something new comes up tomorrow next week or next month uh and you're within the statute
02:31uh you you don't quote unquote close investigations so that's something uh that i'd never heard of and i i
02:39know in my opinion there's no such thing as a quote unquote closed investigation they can say
02:44whatever they want uh over at the norfolk da's office i'm sure that that that was um that was a
02:51curated comment or a series of comments but um i'll leave it to the feds to do what the feds do best
02:57and that is to investigate and that's exactly what i think is is continuing to happen but that's just
03:01my opinion speaking of speaking of that of the da's office should the taxpayers in this state
03:07be concerned with how much was spent on on both of these trials oh god yes yeah this is that i mean
03:16they're the the da's office serves at the pleasure of the public uh he's an elected official he's got
03:22responsibility to the public for their for their confidence and for the to their pocketbooks um i i have
03:29no idea how much they spent i know how much we spent and i can imagine they spent as much or more i mean
03:35there there were millions and millions and millions of of dollars of taxpayer money spent that was
03:41completely unnecessary because of a persecution not a prosecution because of a personal some sort
03:46of a personal vendetta after the first trial everybody everybody knew what had happened inside
03:52that jury room inside that deliberation room she was acquitted um i've talked about this the fact that
03:59uh karen and i and and our team may be the only uh attorney client relationship where we've actually
04:06acquitted someone of murder twice in the same case with the same charges they knew that that they
04:12couldn't prove this case coming out of the first trial they knew they couldn't prove the case going
04:16into the first trial and that they pressed forward and then of course following the the debacle of the
04:23first trial and the and the the joke that was the the unrecorded verdict uh they forged ahead again
04:29and it was uh you know some sort of it turned from a professional objective prosecution of of a case to
04:36a personal vendetta and it cost the taxpayers millions and millions and millions of dollars i mean
04:41just their just their their special prosecutor alone uh his bill was north of 500 000 close closing in
04:50on 600 000 just him for a completely failed prosecution which is autumn you worked in the
04:57da's office in los angeles as an ada yeah um you have perfectly capable ada's who could have tried
05:07this case and it wouldn't cost you 600 000 correct that's normally the way of course yeah that's
05:12normally the way it goes and if if michael morrissey didn't have those kinds of prosecutors who could
05:17try the case capably um then maybe then he needs to find another job that's his only job is to
05:23populate the courtrooms with people who are competent not just competent but ethical i don't know maybe
05:30there were some ethical prosecutors inside that office who said not just i i can't they probably could
05:36have prosecuted the case it's just a matter of calling witnesses and doing an opening closing
05:40statement putting on some evidence i think they had i think they had prosecutors who said they
05:44wouldn't because it's unethical they didn't believe in it so what does he do he goes outside uh the
05:50the parameters of of the contours of his office and finds uh some defense attorney to come on board and
05:58and switch packs midstream and and become a prosecutor it's it's it's outrageous you just don't see this
06:05kind of thing alan i was so impressed with how you and your team were able to handle the first trial
06:10and the second trial but it did feel so drastically different the way in which you decided to handle
06:17witnesses and the first trial seemed like there was just bombshell after bombshell it was much more
06:22mcalbert's heavy uh while the second trial was much more database what went into the decision
06:28to kind of switch things up and choose to go down that road at the second time around
06:33there wasn't a there wasn't a marked difference in what our theme and theory of the case was uh
06:42there as a matter of fact there was no difference in what our theme and theory of the case was which
06:45is uh the the suv never hit john he wasn't killed by being hit by a car that's the the basic postulate
06:52in the second trial it was very clear that the prosecution was going to do something different
06:56they were going to be uh they were going to try to style themselves as a data-driven prosecution
07:02we knew that the data helped us so any any trial lawyer has to do this you you have to be committed
07:08to your cause but you also have to be able to be up on the balls of your feet you have to be able to be
07:12nimble and pivot uh with the prosecution because you're not just parrying you're defending but
07:18you're also to a certain degree uh you're on the offense as well so what we decided to do was was shift
07:25and and learn from the first trial that i wanted to to press much much much harder on reasonable doubt
07:32and and undermining everything they say about the data because the data actually served our purposes
07:38the data proved that the car did not hit it did not collide with john o'keefe and so that's what you
07:44saw in the second trial is a much more sort of tactical approach they didn't call certain witnesses
07:49they didn't call brian higgins they didn't call uh brian albert they didn't there were big witnesses
07:54that they just for uh for went altogether um we knew that there was a chance they would do that we
08:01didn't know until they they closed their case who they were and weren't going to call they didn't have
08:05to tell us in advance what their what their trial strategy was but we were ready and and able to sort
08:11of pivot on the on the move to not just defend against what they were presenting data-wise
08:18but to attack them for not calling people like oh i don't know how about michael proctor the lead
08:24investigator on whom on whose shoulders you base the entire prosecution and you don't call him so
08:31we knew that there was going to be some shifts and part of being a good trial lawyer lawyers to be able
08:37to make those shifts sort of on the fly and that's what we did and we did it with uh with karen's
08:41approval and with the rest of the team's approval um speaking of michael proctor he is uh had a civil
08:46service hearing yesterday trying to get his job back saying the suggestion suggestion is that he
08:54was not treated like other troopers did does he deserve to be a trooper in massachusetts oh my god
09:01no please tell me please tell me they're not going to get his job back uh he he's claiming he wasn't
09:06treated like other troopers well then don't then act like other troopers don't do what don't do what
09:12you did which is to take your trooper's hat off uh and to become uh a sort of a sideshow uh this guy
09:20had so many biases going into the case i mean it was it was embarrassing i don't need to go into and
09:26i won't go into all the the details of what he did uh not just to the investigation but to karen
09:34reed personally just dehumanizing her uh maintaining relationships with the people that he should have
09:40been investigating the very people he should have been investigating no no he he look to be a sworn
09:46officer and to take on the mantle of the protection of the community that is a privilege greg and courtney
09:53that's a privilege that is not a right and he squandered that privilege with bias and and a lack
09:59of objectivity and lying through his teeth about his own relationships about dehumanizing with it with
10:05conduct that was dehumanizing of the person he was supposed to objectively be investigating no he's
10:11he's lost all his right to carry a badge and a gun he's an embarrassment he should never ever ever be
10:18in a position to uh to control uh the the community members that he that he serves and that's exactly what
10:27being a police officer allows you to do it's a lot of power and he's not someone who should ever be
10:32commissioned with that power ever again alan you discussed objectivity uh on a scale of one to ten
10:40how much do you miss judge bev oh my god that's a whopper if i go the rest of my life uh and and never
10:49have to um walk into a room with with judge bev god bless her uh it'll be too soon um yeah yeah and and
10:57by the way that's that's the other that's the other thing is uh you know i don't have to say it
11:02um i was right there in the mix i was in the i was in the fishbowl i was wondering if if others were
11:09were clocking what i was seeing you know sometimes you're you're so far in it it's like a fish that
11:15doesn't know it's wet i i wasn't sure if others were seeing what i was seeing inside that courtroom but
11:21you know a judge's job is to absolutely be unbiased to put all of the biases aside you know
11:29everybody comes into to life any situation with certain biases the job of a judge is to put those
11:34biases aside and and she showed very very quickly um and and undeniably that she could not and would
11:41not do that uh there were there were rampant biases in favor of the prosecution in favor of the
11:46commonwealth in favor of mr lally and mr mclaughlin in favor of mr brennan once he took over um and
11:53against the defense from nearly day one nearly from the moment i walked into court uh the first time on
11:58on september 25th 2022 um so no there was a there was a breakdown of the entire system and she was part of
12:06it do you believe that there was a conspiracy to frame karen reed or we did we debated this a lot on
12:15this show with curtis or do you think it was just you know awful and investigative work
12:21i don't it's a combination of both for sure in my opinion a combination of both there was an awful
12:29investigative work but it wasn't just incompetence it went beyond just incompetence you could read in
12:34michael proctor's text messages that it wasn't just incompetence he had a he had a a view of her he
12:41had a thought process about her from nearly day one right 16 hours into the investigation he was
12:48already determining that he was going to make sure that that it was going to get pinned on the girl
12:53uh she's going to pay for this right he said it out loud he said the quiet part out loud so it's not
12:58just incompetence so now once you have once you go beyond outside the parameters of just incompetence
13:03and being stupid which there was a lot of idiots uh involved in the investigation as well
13:08once you go beyond those parameters now you start getting into the the very troubling area
13:14of a cover-up well we know that an officer tragically an officer has lost lost his life
13:20and and we also know that we're going to pin it on this girl so what does that mean by definition
13:26greg what does that mean by definition it means that you're going to cover up what actually did happen
13:31you're going to actively cover up who's responsible and lo and behold isn't it amazing
13:38that the person that's supposed to be investigating is connected to and related to and with personal
13:45relationships to the very people that should have been number one number two number three on the
13:51suspect list so you tell me was karen reed frames alan since the second trial there have been
13:58videos photos making their way around social media of inside 34 fairview it seems like the new owners
14:04let you guys inside whether you were down in the basement looking at uh the flooring that was pulled
14:09up inside the garage there was a video of you outside yelling and from uh the albert's bedroom you could
14:16hear yourself pretty clearly uh will there be any type of i know that you guys have signed on for
14:22different media rights will there be any type of way to dive deeper into that will that come up in
14:29anything well the the the pain point that the plaintiffs uh are going to have in their civil suit
14:40is this is a very different lawsuit it's not a criminal lawsuit and it's certainly not being governed
14:46by judge beverly canoni uh who kept out so much of that information that's why you're seeing it on
14:53social media rather than having seen it in the courtroom uh all of it was relevant uh we we attempted
14:59to get most of it in uh and we were denied both in the first trial and the second trial um so this new
15:06lawsuit is probably a very good platform i'd say i would suggest to you uh for a lot of that information
15:14to be aired out and aired out completely so yeah i i don't that's not the last you're going to see
15:18of that information just a lot of other information to be clear when you you said this new lawsuit is
15:23so you're joining her civil defense team to defend against the wrongful death suit are are are you also
15:31is karen also planning uh a federal lawsuit on this case so that's a that's a interesting question not
15:39one that i'm willing to talk about right now uh we have a you're under can i remind you i remind you
15:45you're under oath counselor i object and i moved to strike that comment from the record immediately
15:51by the way also also i offered countless legal strategies during the trial to alan didn't use a
15:58single one of them i just want to make that clear right now i think alan needs your help yeah
16:02yeah i yeah i've uh i've seen carnival psychics with a better track record than uh than greg when
16:09it comes to legal prowess i'm just suggesting maybe maybe not maybe not um greg uh they will we'll see
16:18what we'll see what this new lawsuit entails i can tell you this i can say this um karen has has proved
16:25herself to be a fighter she's not going to sit back in a corner and get punched right everybody has a
16:32plan i would suggest the following everybody has a plan as the old saying goes that mike tyson made
16:36famous until they get hit in the mouth and karen reed has shown that she knows how to hit others in
16:43the mouth meaning uh how to fight back um i doubt seriously she's going to be a wallflower uh during
16:50the course of this uh this new litigation so whatever that means we'll see okay alan i know you're
16:56probably uh got something else to do this morning than talk to us i just am so curious about
17:01the period between the trials as someone who's i i don't understand i've never studied law is there
17:08any um prerequisite or is there any onus on the norfolk county da to prove either new information
17:16or how did you go from the the ending and the conclusion of the mistrial into the beginning of
17:24the next trial what was that process like and what did the state have to do that's a great that's a
17:29great question the state has an obligation an ongoing obligation to ensure that they do not
17:34ever present a case in front of a jury that they do not believe can be proved beyond any and all
17:40reasonable doubt to a jury of 12 objective community members all right that's the postulate right that's
17:47the baseline they have an ongoing obligation to establish that's the ethics of a prosecutor you
17:54cannot just prosecute a case because it sits on your desk you have to be convinced as a prosecutor
17:59as an ethical prosecutor that you can prove the case prove all the elements of all the charges beyond
18:04any and all reasonable doubts to a jury an independent jury so after the first trial it was our thought
18:10there's no way there's no way that these folks are going to come back to the to the drawing board and
18:15say oh yeah we're going to do this again it was nearly four months the first time what three months and
18:20and a few days the first time uh it ended with you know very famously now it ended with acquittals
18:26that were not recorded of course the da's office is going to go back sit down at their desk take a deep
18:32breath and realize hey you know what guys and gals we did the best we could we put this case forward
18:37first time didn't work out it's not going to work out any better we don't have any new and different
18:41evidence it's going to be the exact same thing the second time it's going to cost the taxpayer
18:44millions our taxpayers millions and millions of dollars we're going to uh take the loss and walk
18:52away it's the just thing to do that's the conversation they never had what michael morrissey
18:58conversely did if he goes back to the drawing board and says who can i hire outside the office
19:03who's willing to take this piece of garbage um lawsuit uh and prosecute it oh nobody in the office
19:12i'll just go pay someone i'll literally it's it's it's offensive it's offensive i'm just going to go
19:18write someone a big enough check basically bribe someone to come on board uh with a big check and
19:25and prosecute the case that nobody else in the office can or will do so what happened between the
19:32first and second trial is offensive uh it never should have happened and it was a complete abrogation
19:38of their obligations and and it's it's it's in keeping with michael morrissey's entire tenure as
19:43the da it's a fiefdom he runs that like a like a lord in his manner he doesn't run it like a public
19:49official uh it's it's he's a disgrace he's an absolute disgrace how how deep do you think the
19:55you know if you consider this to be corruption how how deep do you think it goes here in massachusetts
20:00to its core to its core and that when i say that i don't mean that every single massachusetts state
20:06police officer is is corrupt not by a long shot uh most of them are hard-working men and women who
20:14get up every day and do the job that would that would strike fear in the rest of us right they run
20:20toward the the danger they run toward the bullets and the fire and the and the fights and and those
20:24things i have the deepest admiration for the the lion's share of the men and women who do that job
20:31i also have a deep admiration for the lion's share of the prosecutors who populate courtrooms around
20:36uh around massachusetts but what i've seen uh during my time in massachusetts it hasn't been all that long
20:43you know a few years going on four years now of working in massachusetts pretty regularly uh it's not a
20:49couple of a couple of cops it's not just a couple of cops what are the what are the odds that you
20:54would get uh a uh a proctor and a buchanan and a tully and and these folks that have all been
21:02disciplined uh kevin albert who have been disciplined some of them been fired uh almost all of them have
21:08been removed from their from their positions in one case what are the odds the odds are almost zero
21:14unless the corruption goes extremely deep unless that kind of conduct is rife throughout the community
21:22of the massachusetts state police and also it doesn't just go deep it goes high michael morrissey
21:27is at the top of that list he knows better he damn well knows better he's a political hack
21:32who knows better and all he cares about is his next election that's all he gives a crap about
21:38which is which is offensive were you surprised to see commissioner cox say that he had no idea that
21:45kelly deaver was even involved in the karen reed case how he would be on that greg he actually said
21:50i've never said the name karen reed that that name has never crossed my lips i've never talked about her
21:58or talked about this case are you kidding are you kidding me one of your officers
22:05was fallen one of your cops was found dead on a lawn of one of your cops and one of your the third
22:16leg of that stool is one of your cops is central to the case dealing with not just the one of your
22:24one of your officers who's dead but on on the the the central piece of that puzzle is it happened on one of
22:31your officers lawns and you're telling me you've never said the name you don't know the name karen
22:36reed you've never heard of this case you don't know anything about it well either you're incompetent
22:41or you're lying one of the two and now that you're saying that that conversation with kelly
22:46deaver deaver however she wants to pronounce it never took place are you kidding me then that what
22:52that tells you one of two things is true either you're lying for mr cox or you've just proved my point
23:00that she's a liar which one is it well alan you did have a good officer on the stand though for you
23:06guys and officer baros and in my opinion looking watching that unfold i think he's the reason one of
23:14the main reasons that the jury swayed in your direction i mean he seems like he was almost a
23:19smoking gun nick baros is a hero no question like i said most of the men and women most of the men and
23:27women uh carrying a badge and carrying a gun do god's work every single day and and he's among
23:32those uh he is an absolute hero he was willing to step up there was to him there was no thin blue
23:37line he doesn't that's not how that's not the cloth from which he's cut he doesn't care about those
23:42kinds of things uh he's going to tell the truth because that that's what he does it's what he saw
23:47it's what he what he heard whatever that is that's what he's going to that's what he's going to testify
23:52about and that's what he did he had the guts to get up on the witness stand and tell the jurors
23:56exactly what he saw and what he saw was and what he established was that taillight uh was not broken
24:03uh not completely smashed out when uh when michael proctor first got a hold of that truck it did not
24:10look like it did after he got a hold of it and after all those uh taillight pieces were found at 34
24:14fairview that tells the juror jury all they need to know about the condition of the taillight and what
24:19michael proctor and his people were doing with that car alan who is in the running to play you in
24:26the movie i thought it was you you and i talked about this greg you said you you i have done some
24:32acting um you're gonna have to go to modern pastry and just eat there for the whole civil trial for
24:38that to work he has an imdb page not a big deal i mean i think there's i think there's an undeniable
24:45likeness come on um yeah i have no idea who who knows who knows uh danny devito maybe yeah well
24:55i appreciate you taking the time and it is of interest i think that you are now joining
25:01that uh that team that will uh not only defend uh the civil case with karen but uh also uh in
25:11decide whether or not there is a lawsuit to be filed so wiggy did you have one the only question
25:17i had for alan wiggy didn't watch much of the trial i couldn't get him into it i tried i tried
25:22he wants idris to know yeah yeah exactly wiggy i'll i'll take my apologies now wiggy no no no
25:29believe me listen the one thing i learned growing up as a kid always know a defense lawyer the the
25:36thing the thing i would i would just ask is you know in this situation you talked about the money
25:43the state spent clearly karen spent a ton of money where does she go to and it's probably impossible
25:50for her to get her life back but where does she go to be able to recoup some of that money to pay you
25:55guys off yeah that's it i mean look uh first of all i don't i don't care about the money uh i've made
26:02it pretty clear in other in other forums that that that's not why i'm doing what i'm doing i'm
26:06doing it because it's the right thing to do every once in a while you have a you have this magnum
26:10opus uh case in front of you as a lawyer and and you better be willing to step up and do the do
26:15the right thing look yourself in the mirror and realize that at the end of your career uh there
26:19have been times when people have needed you people in need that can't do what they want to do and
26:23need to do uh without you and you're just going to step up so that's what you say that alan alan you say
26:27that and people lose their minds they say there's no way this guy's working for free think of
26:31the all the attention that he's gotten out of this like what what's your answer to that when
26:36people say that my answer is that that's exactly what's happened uh i have not i've not asked for
26:42a dime from her because it cost her her life not just a bank account it's not that you know she was
26:46not a rich woman to begin with she was she was doing just fine she was doing just fine and she was uh
26:52you know certainly uh better than a lot of folks uh financially uh she was not a wealthy woman uh it
26:58cost her everything it cost her her life her reputation her job her professorship her entire
27:04bank account she had to sell her house she doesn't have a car um it cost her everything so what what
27:10am i going to do sit there and and and peel off more layers of that onion if she were to to get some
27:16sort of reprieve some sort of financial reprieve i couldn't live with myself i could not live with
27:21myself um so every once in a while it's just the right thing to do so i i don't know where she goes
27:26to sort of get her get her life back she's going to try uh she's going to work for it she's not
27:32going to try she's going to succeed she will get her life back she will she's going to land on her
27:36feet uh she already has uh this is the first step in that process uh but i i'm not worried about
27:42karen reed karen reed is as tough as nails uh she's as tough as shoe leather and she's not going to let
27:47this get her down she will there will be another very very significant chapter to her life uh what that
27:53looks like uh only only time will tell i'm gonna lock your number in yeah yeah you may get a call
28:00you may get a call from wiggio yeah i might know somebody i might need you one day i like your pro
28:05bono civil trial not live streamed correct uh doubtful no there hasn't been a there hasn't been
28:14a request a media request that i'm aware of and and who knows what the judge would do in that case
28:18but it's it's very very unlikely very unlikely alan you're welcome on this show anytime and look
28:24forward to catching up when you get back here in boston which became your second you guys are great
28:28yeah keep uh keep a bowl of uh chowder warm for me i'm i'm coming back all right alan jackson thank
28:34you for taking the time and we will be right back
28:37thank you for taking the time and we will be right back and we will be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right back and we'll be right
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