Nepalese American artist Tenzing Rigdol speaks with Mayank Chhaya

South Asia Monitor

1 year ago

Nepalese American artist Tenzing Rigdol speaks with Mayank Chhaya | SAM Conversation

Transcript

00:00Nepalese-American artist Tenzing Rigdol, whose parents came from Tibet, says with good attention

00:17anything that one does becomes art.

00:20That has been the underlying philosophy of Rigdol's works, including a major installation

00:25titled Biography of a Thought, which was inaugurated at the Metropolitan Museum in New York on

00:32September 19th and will be on display until January 12th, 2025.

00:38It is part of the exhibition titled Mandala's Mapping the Buddhist Art of Tibet.

00:45Rigdol reinterprets the centuries-old Tibetan mandala style of painting by incorporating

00:50modern-day motifs and themes on panels several feet wide and high, with painters taking attention

00:58to initial drawings and then choosing paint.

01:02This particular installation was in the making for five years.

01:07Tenzing Rigdol spoke to Mahim Chahar Reports.

01:10Welcome to Mahim Chahar Reports.

01:11It's a great pleasure to have you.

01:14Thank you, sir.

01:15And it's a great pleasure to be here.

01:19You know, I was watching your interview on The Met as part of the installation video.

01:28And you said something quite striking.

01:30I want to start with that.

01:31You said with good attention, anything that you do becomes art.

01:39That's a lovely statement.

01:41And the kind of art that you do requires so much attention.

01:45Tell me about how you first came to be an artist.

01:53I sometimes get that question in different combinations.

01:59But actually, my surprise is, why isn't anybody painting?

02:06Why aren't people artists?

02:08It's like, for me, it's almost like I don't remember when I was not an artist.

02:15Like from children, we're always drawing, we always know.

02:19And so I always encourage people to paint, even to collectors, curators, everyone.

02:28So one of my friends says, if you ask Rigdol about any problem, he will say there's a solution

02:33and it's just be part of art, like paint, you know.

02:37But when I say paint, I don't mean paint like him or try to become like someone.

02:44So I have friends who come sometimes, have problems, and I say, no, don't worry.

02:47Come up in the balcony I take and just paint.

02:49And they'll say, no, I'm a physicist.

02:51I don't paint.

02:52So they have all this definition of who they are not.

02:56And I said, no, but you can see the leave, yeah?

02:59And they say, yeah.

03:00But when you look at it, you look at it with like your genes.

03:05The science says like your genetics is 20 million of tantra, unbroken chain of the gene.

03:11So you are looking with 20 million of experience.

03:14And of course, when you look at the leave and when I look at it, we are looking at the

03:19same thing.

03:20It's going to look different.

03:21In the differences, we find art, nuances.

03:26And at the same time, nothing to be proud of, but just you're unique, beautiful.

03:32But then slowly, when you pay attention to a flower, you discover your uniqueness.

03:39But when you pay attention to attention, you discover yourself.

03:43So in so many ways, art really is attention.

03:48If you look at art from a method, technique, slowly, I think some other entity is going

03:55to replace that, like AI is going to come with the product.

03:59Then we're going to say, how is my product different than AI product?

04:04At that time, I think then we get into the zone of attention.

04:08See, that's a great distinction you made.

04:11I'm so glad you said that because AI cannot pay attention the way a human being can, right?

04:18AI is not attentive like we understand attention.

04:21And I think that's a great distinction that people need to know.

04:24I'm glad you said that.

04:26Yeah, and also, I think we can relate to your meeting with health, His Holiness.

04:31I'm sure you might have some meetings in the video, some meetings right in front, like

04:37the pranic energy.

04:39There's difference, definitely.

04:41You get it?

04:41Like looking at a picture and in the presence of the person.

04:46And sometimes when you talk about present, being in present, it might mean being here

04:52with all of your attention.

04:54So that's why in India, the words are even better.

04:59Like in Latin, I think ars, A-R-S, means to imitate, copy, or method, or technique.

05:07Whereas in Indian tradition or in the Eastern tradition, we would say like chitrakala.

05:14Chitrakala, yes.

05:16And chitra means awareness.

05:18Chitra means that which shines.

05:20Chitra is that who is always there.

05:22And then that which doesn't move.

05:25And kala means time, there's always motion, there's gati.

05:30And when you weave this time with awareness, they say, that's when the art is.

05:35And then that makes it extremely rich.

05:38And then immediately you say, what does it say in Tibetan language?

05:42In Tibetan language, we call gyuma or gyutsel.

05:46Gyutsel comes from very interesting, again.

05:49They say state of awareness are like in four planes.

05:56The third plane is gyuma.

05:57And from there, all this expression of expression

06:06without so much of I thought.

06:09And they say you are absolutely free to give expression.

06:12And you are not really giving expression,

06:14but you are just like fitting your expression in the grand expression.

06:21So in the East, art has so much.

06:25Absolutely.

06:26So I prescribe more towards those.

06:30I like to look at the richer definition.

06:33Right.

06:34It's almost meditation.

06:37Art as a form of meditation.

06:39It does become meditative.

06:41When I was looking at some of the clips in your video,

06:46especially where you were painting and you're

06:48talking about the brush tip touching the canvas and that contact,

06:54I could see that everything else falls away.

06:59And you're just into that little point.

07:02It's almost like a single point meditation that you were engaged in.

07:06It would be very amazing, I think, when people start painting,

07:12because that's where you're really talking about process.

07:17Because otherwise, sometimes we can talk about the issue

07:21in its aboutness around circumambulating the stupa.

07:25But here, we're talking about the Uber is really driving in your bedroom.

07:31You're talking about then shouldn't we even

07:34talk when you are really let's say when you when I want to listen to someone

07:39in the other room, first thing I do is I put my ear like this.

07:43But if I can't hear it, one thing I do is I close our other sense.

07:47I close my eyes.

07:48And so I focus everything in my ear.

07:50Is that really what happens when you're drawing the brushes

07:55that the tip of the brush and you're drawing it at that time?

07:58Naturally, what you see is your breath would stop.

08:02You get it like your breath would stop when the breath stops at that time,

08:06your finger moves wherever you want it.

08:08But it has to be.

08:09The will is very soft will.

08:11It's not like I want to draw it.

08:13Not like that. True, true. Absolutely.

08:16And then the minute you feel a little bit interruption in your mind,

08:19I have to lift the brush if I force it.

08:23It brings up. Yeah. Yes.

08:24So I really think neuroscience and many things can come together.

08:32You know, absolutely.

08:34Search with art and see really what happens,

08:37what happens to a very disturbed mind when they paint.

08:40You know what happens to the chemical?

08:42These are things we can do research.

08:44And according to East art,

08:49in whether singing or anything through art, you can enlighten.

08:53Forget about the small things.

08:55So it can heal. Basically, art can heal you.

08:58That's what the final claim in the East is.

09:01And even in Buddhism, everything, half of Buddhism,

09:04Kareem, generation stage is art.

09:06Actually, you're using the imaginative power to defeat your crazy imagination.

09:13Correct.

09:15Tell me how you came

09:18to do mandalas, because I mean, there are several interpretations.

09:22One of when you do powder mandalas, for instance,

09:25the idea is you do such intricate work for such a long time

09:29and then you basically wipe it, wipe it away

09:31to underline impermanence of life and the universe.

09:37The mandalas that you do are obviously

09:40relatively permanent.

09:42They are they are already on a surface.

09:46How did you come to do mandalas as painting rather than powder?

09:53I mean, mandalas in Tibetan tradition,

09:57there are actually three dimensional mandalas.

10:01We make with the wooden.

10:03We also make with sand.

10:05We also do painting, you know, all these different styles.

10:08And I studied them as well.

10:12But the interesting thing is mandala

10:16really did evolve.

10:17But the core concept is the same in Tibet.

10:20When it reached, it became very elaborate.

10:22And, you know, but also if you look at the stories,

10:26then you get like, oh, mandala is not it.

10:29It might actually give us an idea of maybe it doesn't have to be that complicated.

10:35For example, you know, this great Tibetan lineage of Telopa, Naropa, Marpa,

10:42Milarepa, these great masters.

10:45And one day this Telopa, you know, the great, great

10:48the grandfather of Kaiyude and Telopa said,

10:53I want to give you an empowerment to all the students.

10:56There were a few students and he said, I want to give empowerment.

10:59So right now, can you can somebody make a sand painting, sand mandala?

11:03There's nothing there.

11:05So Naropa got up, his disciple, the main disciple, he got up.

11:09He lifted his dhoti.

11:11He peed and he turned, he circled around and he made a pee mandala.

11:16Oh, really?

11:18And then Telopa said, wonderful.

11:22You get great.

11:23Now it's a good omen, auspicious.

11:25Now I give you the teaching.

11:27So in so many sense, mandala is really about like gathering

11:31everybody's attention.

11:32And then after they create the mandala, it's the teacher

11:35who's really instructing them on deciphering those things.

11:38And really.

11:40So even mandala, man means manas, mind, dala means put mind in there.

11:45Or to really, from a textual point of view,

11:50mandala is something that

11:53includes all the technology of our tool called magical technology,

11:58the complete medical technology.

12:00So there are many things like that, but not nothing.

12:04But I did study.

12:05My first mandala that I studied was compassion mandala from a teacher.

12:10Then I studied Yamanthaka and slowly I just read scripture.

12:14But yeah, I did the painting just because, yeah,

12:19the installation, everything I saw in the center, I wanted to do a sand.

12:23But then later I thought, you know what?

12:25Let's let complicated less than the painting panel there.

12:29True. I'm talking about the installation at the Met.

12:34How did that come to me?

12:35Because I was watching the video of the official Met video

12:39where you talk about the curator asking you to get involved

12:43with that at some point.

12:45And I suppose it must have taken quite a while for you to put this together.

12:49Tell me a bit about the process that went into creating

12:53such large works in such a large space.

12:57Yeah, actually, the curator, Met curator Kurt,

13:02met like 10 years ago, 2014,

13:05when we had a show, a small exhibition then.

13:10And and we had a good and the show was very successful.

13:16And and after that, I got involved in a lot of other things.

13:21I was, you know, I'm always like a nomad at that time.

13:24Search and traveling research. That's all I did.

13:27So then I was in the time I opened a residency in Dharamsala.

13:32It's called Dialogue Artist Residency.

13:34I see. OK.

13:36We are being artists, philosophers, scientists

13:38and make the awareness bounce with one another.

13:41That was the idea.

13:42And then at around that time, pandemic was starting.

13:46I came to New York.

13:47And at that time, Kurt said, are you still interested in one more?

13:51Let me do a good show.

13:53I said, yeah. And then we looked at the space.

13:55Space was really beautiful.

13:57And then we start working on it.

14:00When we start signed the contract right after two or three days,

14:04we had a lockdown.

14:06And then I and then after five years or so,

14:10and that this show happened, so I worked on it for about over five years.

14:15That's a long time. Yeah.

14:16Yeah. And and then that's the result.

14:19So and also, of course, I have

14:23nine people helping assistance. Right.

14:26So wonderful friends and some are like relatives, you know?

14:30Yeah. Yeah. And

14:33so obviously it's your concept, it's your color.

14:36So I was there was a there is a bit in that video where you say

14:40that every color that goes into it is chosen by you.

14:43Even 50 shades of blue, for instance.

14:46Yeah, I'm really yeah.

14:48And when it comes to art, I think

14:52I yeah, in the very beginning, I asked the permission.

14:55This is where I dance, you know, really greedy.

14:59And of course, I encourage everyone to paint.

15:02So I everybody that works with me are also they're painting.

15:07They show me their work. I comment on it. So it's all good.

15:10But the thing is, yeah, I have to draw everything.

15:14I have to fix the color, everything.

15:16And yeah, I have to be in the studio every day.

15:20But I love it. So I almost sleep there.

15:22So but yeah, yeah, that's that's just my practice.

15:26I write, especially when I pick up the subject matter when I paint.

15:31I make sure I just just get lost in it.

15:34All right, Ron.

15:35And in a way, I really don't connect with outside world.

15:39Yeah. You know, given the scale of the works,

15:43how how do you visualize that number one?

15:47And after that, how do you execute?

15:49Are they great?

15:50I mean, I'm trying to understand because it's so detailed.

15:54Yeah. And it's sometimes it is so symmetrical.

15:58Yeah. It's almost geometrical in some places.

16:02How do you come to that process?

16:04It's I mean, I'm sure it's very taxing as an artist.

16:11I think you pay enough attention,

16:14you start seeing the empty space more like this,

16:18like when I move to like a new studio or office house.

16:24First, you see everything nice.

16:26And then two or three days, oh, there's a crack, small crack.

16:29Oh, this is the thing.

16:31I think our eyes are trained to look, look at something different.

16:37And you force that eye to look at the same thing.

16:41Something magical happens, I think, because the eye doesn't want to get bored.

16:46But at the same time, how to not get bored looking at something completely empty?

16:51I think then within you, things start coming, like the mind starts

16:56just like they get nervous, the mind get nervous to stare at an empty canvas.

17:00And like, hey, how about this shade?

17:03And from inside, they come like, you know, black card, you know.

17:07And but then once there's attention, it's I have noticed something.

17:12I don't know how to put it in words.

17:14You pick a color, you imagine it fits.

17:17It doesn't fit just visually.

17:19It enters visually, but it fits with your whole body.

17:22You know, oh, this color fits.

17:24And you put there.

17:26And then sometimes what I do now, what if I replace this color with logic?

17:30Now I put all these different colors.

17:32Right. None of that work.

17:34And I said, that is so strange.

17:36It seemed like.

17:39In that moment, I went through all the color at once.

17:43OK, but somehow I came up with the color that my whole being

17:48decided, which when I analyze rationally also, it matches.

17:51So and then I call this is called maybe instinct.

17:54What is happening?

17:55You know, and that that thing I can develop more and more when I believe in my attention.

18:02You know, I was looking at the works.

18:05They are sort of reinterpretation of the Mandela tradition,

18:09because some of the motives that you use are very modern, very urban.

18:13In fact, some of them are even very American.

18:16The images. Yeah.

18:17How how did you come to decide that?

18:20Because I think that there is an image of George Floyd.

18:24Yeah, this George Floyd, the Vietnam's first self-immolation.

18:28This Dalai Lama, 25 years old.

18:31Right. I saw that.

18:32Chinese hat, you know, there is, of course, there's all these issues about

18:40world conflicts, Sudan, Palestine.

18:43East Turkestan, Hong Kong.

18:46And so all this basically the second panel is what do you call it?

18:53The VT.

18:55It is when VT happens, what happens?

18:57You know, and the third one is about the Nirodha.

19:01You're talking about how to Nirodha.

19:03And the first one is basically in a way you can look at it.

19:07The first one has many layers.

19:09You can also look at it like, oh, it's talking about something very natural

19:13phenomenon, global warming, air pollution, water pollution, this thing.

19:17But again, if you peel off the layer, maybe it's also talking about Tantra,

19:22the four dimension of existence.

19:24That's how it correlates to four chakras.

19:26And these are all there.

19:27And then it also talks about, you can look at it.

19:30Oh, Judaism talks about some kind of light that a prior to sunrise.

19:38That a prior to sun and everything.

19:40Oh, wait, this Hinduism talk about Chitta, this awareness, this shining, you know.

19:46Oh, wait, they talk about Atman, which means breath.

19:49It's something to do with breath.

19:51Wait, the Islam talk about Ruha.

19:54It's like a breath breathing into.

19:56So I see all religion, you know, talking about different, different perspective.

20:04And I like to, I belong to a generation who always like to look at good things

20:09and common things and what makes us all unifies, you know.

20:15So somebody said in Tibetan, oh, you met a Buddha.

20:19I said, no, no, it's for, I created an ocean.

20:22People come here, some believers, some non-believers, some Hindus,

20:26some Muslim, anybody can come.

20:29But the accent is Tibetan because I was cultured in that way.

20:34But what I'm saying has nothing to do with Tibet.

20:36What I'm saying has more to do with how we are all really connected.

20:41That's what in so many ways Vajrayana or Tantra,

20:45all these words are really emphasizing the center and the surroundings.

20:50Right.

20:51So I like to look at it that way.

20:56In terms of commercializing your works,

20:59because one has to survive too as an artist.

21:02Yes.

21:02Do you make a distinction between the kind of work,

21:05say you've done for the Met, this installation,

21:08and the kind of work you think will sell at various places, including auction houses?

21:13How do you make that distinction?

21:15And if you do, how do you do it?

21:18I've never thought art in that way.

21:21I see.

21:21Yes, it's almost like I have a vision,

21:31and it has to get out of my body, that's all.

21:33I see.

21:34And then afterwards, some would say this, that, you know.

21:40But yes, I'm not worried too much about it.

21:43I mostly think as an artist, I just focus on the work.

21:49I try to preserve that tradition.

21:52And I have an agent who would help me sell.

21:55Oh, I see.

21:55So yeah.

21:56The gallery is Rossin Rossi Gallery.

21:59Yeah, that's where I first communicated with.

22:02Yeah, yeah.

22:02So they're like a perfect team to help me.

22:06I see.

22:06And my wife is there to help me.

22:08So I think much of my practice really depends on their kindness and their work, yeah.

22:17Do you also do other genres of painting?

22:21Say, for instance, the name immediately that comes to my mind is, say,

22:26some form of impressionism, for instance, or abstract expressionism.

22:31Do you engage in those at all?

22:33I do different, but it's like this.

22:38Where can attention be?

22:40It can be anywhere.

22:41It's the same.

22:43Forget about it.

22:43I like poetry.

22:45I like singing.

22:46I studied classical Indian music recently.

22:49Wonderful.

22:49Yeah.

22:50And there I studied swara.

22:52It's also breath.

22:54Swara means also melody.

22:56Swa means self-arising.

22:58Ra means ragini, that fire.

23:00Again, it goes back to chitta.

23:02So I'm always studying.

23:04I always study.

23:06I'm always a student.

23:07And whenever I find somebody who knows something, even it's like making a delicious

23:14I'm right there with the book just to learn and see how it affects my tongue.

23:19And I'm just purely excited to learn from anybody who's paid attention and come up with something beautiful.

23:27And we exchange knowledge, share.

23:29And after all, we have to leave, no?

23:32That's true.

23:33So before we die, just make sure you have a good time with everybody.

23:37It's like a big airport.

23:38Indeed.

23:40Yeah, so I just have good time, learn something.

23:42If I can teach, I'm very fortunate if I get to teach.

23:45And that's all.

23:46I think teaching is one of the most beautiful way of living.

23:50But yeah, so that's all.

23:53Yeah.

23:53What kind of other paintings do you like just to look at?

23:59I really like to see a painting where I somehow see the artist is completely lost.

24:11And then maybe I can also get lost, you know?

24:14Or some art will just pull you.

24:16I think it's almost like the artwork is consecrated by artist's attention.

24:21And in Tibetan tradition, there's a consecration tradition of paintings and all these things.

24:27And there's also a saying in Tibetan tradition where if you're an expert,

24:31keba, if you pay really attention, you don't need to consecrate.

24:35It's automatically consecrated.

24:37Right.

24:38This is such a beautiful saying like that.

24:42And so for me, myself, I work with pastel, watercolor, oil, acrylic, performance, digital.

24:52I try to...

24:54I look at it more like these are results of my study.

24:58And matte is also a result of my study.

25:01It's actually a student painting.

25:02But also I don't, like you earlier, offer the matte different kind.

25:06No, for me, every wall is a matte wall.

25:09And of course, matte is wonderful.

25:13More people go and look.

25:14But for me, I had shows at a basement, which is as beautiful and as precious as the show in matte.

25:22And that's my practice.

25:24And not that I'm being too bold, like prattling or something.

25:29But just I genuinely believe that.

25:31Every painting I do, I do it for, you know, to get attention.

25:38Right.

25:39You know, looking at some of the pieces, maybe I'm wrong, but tell me what you think.

25:45I also did see some Japanese sort of Yukio-e, in some places, influence.

25:52Have you been exposed to Japanese works in a significant way?

25:56Because at first glance, if I was just looking at it like a blur,

26:02because I'm a great admirer of Yukio-e style of painting, floating world.

26:09And yours is extraordinary in that sense.

26:12It struck me immediately.

26:14I think I have looked at a lot of works.

26:17But this particular name, maybe I might have.

26:19But I've also looked at, when I was in school, I loved Hokusai.

26:23That's the one.

26:26So, in a way, I used to say, like, you know what?

26:29Hokusai has made these great waves hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

26:33And everybody's plucked from it.

26:35Nobody's like, can I?

26:38And I secretly told my friends, I want to update and make this new wave.

26:45And then for that, I first panel, I give tribute to him.

26:49But it doesn't look like this wave.

26:51I felt that.

26:53And then I went to Astoria Atlantic Ocean.

26:57We have that part.

26:59So I always go there.

27:00And I decided, you know what?

27:02If I really want to always go to the source, my always theory is,

27:05I talk to some scholar, and I say, which scripture?

27:08And I go to the source.

27:09So here also, I went to the source, looked at the wave for months,

27:14of the Atlantic wave, months looking at it.

27:17And made about like one square feet.

27:21Just focus on that.

27:22Maybe throw small stones and see how it moves.

27:25And then I'm moving with it.

27:27It's almost like I'm trying to find a breath pattern of the ocean

27:31that goes like this.

27:33And then I say, OK, now can I move water like this?

27:37And then I try, and it happens.

27:39And then somehow it works.

27:41So all the ocean that you see is Atlantic Ocean I bought in the Met

27:46where the water is all from there.

27:49Of course, I think I'm influenced by all great masters of the past.

27:55My own Tibetan tradition, we had like great, great painters

28:00still living, some elders.

28:02Absolutely.

28:03And so they all have been very kind.

28:08Even some we haven't met, but they still have been kind just by,

28:12from a distance, you can see their work and appreciate.

28:17So many artists, beautiful, wonderful artists.

28:20We did wonderful shows at Rubin and all.

28:23But then, right now, they all, I think, couldn't come here.

28:27They couldn't reside, they couldn't stop.

28:29So, yeah, I really like to be influenced.

28:35And so I collect past masters as my trophy.

28:41And I'm very happy and proud that I can learn from them.

28:46A lot of European masters of the late 18th century and 19th century,

28:53people like Vincent van Gogh, for instance.

28:56Van Gogh was a passionate admirer of Japanese painting.

29:00In fact, he picked a lot of the ideas from Japanese painting.

29:05I'm sure if he had been exposed to Tibetan paintings,

29:08he would have done the same.

29:10Unfortunately, he wasn't.

29:12I loved Van Gogh.

29:14When I first went to University of Colorado, I was 17 years old.

29:20And when I first encountered Van Gogh,

29:23it was through a movie, actually, at the library.

29:26Kurt Douglas.

29:28Kurt Douglas, that's a classic.

29:30And we watched and I thought, wow.

29:34And it inspired me so much that I started carrying a pipe.

29:38It doesn't suit me.

29:41And I loved.

29:43And all I could take from it is he painted at 27.

29:47He died at 37.

29:49Ten years he dedicated.

29:51And you can still, there's 100,000 drums of him.

29:54And I studied more and more.

29:57And I realized, you know what?

29:59If Milarepa has painted, he would be Van Gogh.

30:02If Van Gogh has meditated, he would be Milarepa.

30:05So I had this, the same kind of dedication was there.

30:09And I thought, that I really got the pity instruction from Van Gogh.

30:15Fascinating, yeah.

30:17And then I have one professor, James McLehaney.

30:20And he gave me another really unbelievable, what you call, mantra.

30:25And when I was young, I'm always asking,

30:27do the colors expensive?

30:29Come on, oil painting color, you know?

30:31And I come from a modest family.

30:33So I'm painting it slowly.

30:35And every color I'm asking,

30:38if I paint it red.

30:40At first, he was like, yeah, yeah.

30:42It might look good. Try it.

30:44And I'll try.

30:46And then the next, I would say,

30:48and then I did that five, six times.

30:50And then James McLehaney, he came and he said,

30:52next time, I was tensing.

30:54Next time, you just ask the canvas.

30:56You don't ask me.

30:58And then I asked,

31:00why did it take me months to understand that, you know?

31:05And then from then on, I only asked canvas.

31:13And amazing thing is, at the exhibition,

31:17James McLehaney, the professor,

31:19came at the talk and we met.

31:21And after this long years,

31:23like 20 some years,

31:25and I was reminding him,

31:27yeah, that was your instruction.

31:29I followed and I got here,

31:31all due to his simple instruction.

Nepalese American artist Tenzing Rigdol speaks with Mayank Chhaya | SAM Conversation

Category

Transcript

Be the first to comment

Recommended