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Sanjoy Hazarika speaks with Mayank Chhaya on his new book “River Traveler: Journeys on the Tsangpo-Brahmaputra from Tibet to the Bay of Bengal’ | SAM Conversation
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00:00Originating in a glacier on the world's highest Tibetan plateau, the Brahmaputra river as it is
00:23known in India and Songpo as in Tibet is one of the world's longest and widest rivers traveling
00:30through three countries and covering 2900 kilometers. Along the way it has spawned and
00:36sometimes destroyed great human societies in Tibet, India and Bangladesh where it merges into
00:44the Bay of Bengal. It's a river flowing with a million stories and more populated by explorers,
00:50spymasters and mapmakers over the centuries. Charting those as well as the Brahmaputra's environmental,
00:58agrarian and civilizational impact is journalist and writer Sanjo Hazarika who has spent over 20 years
01:05traveling along with it from Tibet to the Bay of Bengal via India's Arunachal Pradesh and Assam states.
01:13The result is his latest book River Traveller Journeys on the Songpo Brahmaputra from Tibet to
01:19the Bay of Bengal. Sanjo I spoke to MCR from Shilong, the capital of the northeastern Indian state of
01:26Meghala. Sanjo Hazarika. Welcome to Mayank Shire Report, Sanjo. It's a great pleasure to have you and
01:33many congratulations on your new book River Traveller. Thank you, Mayank. Well, it's great to see you.
01:39As I was saying, you know, you haven't changed much. The hair is still there, looking a bit gray
01:46and wiser. I'm gray and balding. No, I must say for the benefit of the viewers that Sanjo and I go back
01:58a long way over three decades. We obviously both journalists. Sanjo was at that point a very high
02:05profile one working for the Grand New York Times. So I've known him from that time and Sanjo has written
02:11so many books after that. And the reason why is here is his latest one, which is River Traveller. It's
02:18it's basically a book made over the last 20 years of his journeys from Tibet via Arunachal Pradesh
02:30all the way to the Bay of Bengal. So let me begin with this, Sanjo. Your book tells the story of the
02:37Brahmaputra River or the Sangpo and it's known in Tibet where it originates. The story straddles
02:44some 20 years of your journeys along the river. Tell me how it all started.
02:50Well, I've been entranced by the river since a child because one of the first images of the river
02:58as a child which I still have in mind is going down in a car by the river and seeing dolphins
03:08leaping and dancing on the river. You don't see them in Guwahati anymore. You have to go a bit of
03:13a distance because the river has become polluted because of the huge growth of the population of the
03:19city and the stuff that is dumped into the river. But and that in a way tells you a little bit of what's
03:29changed. But this this so that's always the beginning. There's always something that stirs your imagination.
03:36And many years ago I had a chance to travel into along the river with a film crew to make this film
03:47called A River Story with with this great director Jahanu Varuwa. Indeed, indeed.
03:56Yeah. So in the process and that film is available on YouTube or our YouTube. You can see it.
04:02Yes. It's called A River Story. The quest for the Brahmaputra. And in the course of the filming,
04:09which was spread over a few years, I also went to Tibet to the team, a small team shot there,
04:16which seems almost it seems impossible nowadays. It is. But even conditions between India and China,
04:22but also how Tibet has grown or is secluded from the world. So yeah. So those are some of the initial
04:33stories. And the river was always not just a great attraction, but also a key challenge that I saw to
04:43both life's growth and trajectory, but also to the region's well-being and the way it was.
04:53You know, it it shaped everything history, geography, countries, regions, people, lives and communities.
05:03You know, speaking of that, as one of the world's longest and widest rivers traveling some 2,900 kilometers,
05:13the Brahmaputra has spawned civilizations as well as a famously furious river, also destroyed human
05:22societies. What is your image of the river after having been along it for such a long time? How do you see
05:29the Brahmaputra? Do you see it as a sort of an extension of your life?
05:35Well, it's a very turbulent river in times of flood. It's not the longest river. It's one of the longest
05:43rivers. But it certainly carries more sediment than most other rivers. It's a river that is building,
05:55that is helping the continent to grow as it as it brings silt and sediment down from Tibet through Assam
06:05and dumps it in the Bay of Bengal. So satellite imagery shows a growth in a way, the creation of islands
06:14and the creation of larger stretches of land in the Bay of Bengal as a result of that. So I see it as a
06:23as a great traveler. You know, the river is the traveler. We are traveling on the river, but the river itself
06:31is a traveler through millennia and a builder. And it is like a grandparent in winter, relaxed, taking the sun.
06:44But in summer and the floods, it is a powerful entity that is capable of sweeping away villages and habitation
06:57and any man-made structure. So we need to be conscious of that power, respectful of it, and not try and intervene
07:07so much as to incur its wrath. I mean, because that will always end up badly for the guy at the other end.
07:16At what point does it become a furious river? Because I'm sure when it starts from the Tibetan plateau,
07:25it's pretty gentle and then it rushes. Have you figured out when it becomes,
07:30acquires that ferocious reputation that it has? I mean, I'll tell you, sorry to digress a bit,
07:36growing up in Ahmedabad, as far away as one can be from the Brahmaputra, I always remember the
07:42stories about the flooding caused by Brahmaputra. That's the only image I have of that river. So tell
07:49me about at what point it becomes rather angry. Well, it depends on the weather and what makes it angry.
08:00It can be a natural dam which has come, which is pausing its flow or a tributary upstream,
08:10because it doesn't, you can't measure the river in terms of that perception in one part because it is
08:21like that even in Tibet. Tibet also, it floods. At 13,000 feet, you'll have a flood because it's rained
08:28and, you know, the snow melt has been, there's been a surge and I've driven through a flood in Tibet.
08:35I describe it, it's quite nerve-wracking, you know. You think you're going to be swept away in this
08:42flood and you think, why am I doing this, you know. And I've been on boats, smaller boats and larger
08:52boats on the Brahmaputra in Assam where you're hit by a storm and you have to pull to the side and wait
08:59for the storm, the cyclone almost to subside before you can venture out. So it's been, you know, those
09:08are the times when you have to be very conscious. You depend a lot on the pilot, the driver of the vessel
09:16and his sense of danger, but also his sense of safety. So you have to depend on people to know the
09:27country. And similarly in, in Bangladesh, in Bangladesh I've been swept out to sea.
09:33So that's, that's not because of, uh, uh, because of the, uh, a sudden storm or something, but because
09:43we cut the engine so that it wouldn't disturb the filming. And then the river is so strong,
09:49the current is so strong. After some time I looked around, you couldn't see any land.
09:55I see.
09:57We are somewhere in the Bay of Bengal.
09:58Really?
10:00Then we had to struggle to go back. That's quite a story actually, because we were chased by pirates
10:04and all that.
10:05Oh, I see.
10:05So it's been a pretty rollicking, uh, at time and very challenging and very exhausting, but
10:16life-changing experience on the river.
10:20You know, I'm very interested in your, uh, Tibetan, uh, connection while filming.
10:26Uh, since I'm not able to travel, I would be extremely pleased to do that, but I, I'm not able to.
10:33Tell me about what you remember of the Tibetan plateau. Uh, this is, which year are we talking
10:38about? When were you there?
10:40Oh, this is quite some time ago. This is in 98.
10:43Okay.
10:44So 27 years ago.
10:45Yeah.
10:46Uh, I mean, what are your memories of, uh, Tibet and very, very far from the origin of the Brahmaputra
10:54or you, you were somewhere?
10:55Uh, we are not permitted to film near there because that was going towards, uh, Mansurvar and that side.
11:02Okay.
11:02But we traveled, we traveled for two weeks in Tibet, uh, and with very, with no security.
11:09I see.
11:10And we traveled, uh, uh, throughout, not just, it was, we arrived at a place called Gongar,
11:18which is the airport about 90 kilometers from Lhasa.
11:22Uh, and we traveled to, uh, uh, Gansai, uh, Shigatse.
11:28Uh, then we went on to, uh, places like, uh, towards Bai, which is at the lip of the great gorge.
11:36Uh, uh, entering the Sangpur Gorge.
11:39So we were, we stopped before that and we were stopped not because, uh, we had to go back.
11:46We were forced to return back, retreat by a flood, which washed away the road.
11:52I see.
11:54So the road, we, we could not access the road because the road just was disappeared under, uh,
12:00a sheet of water was broken in different parts.
12:04So the driver was not keen to at all to take us there because of the danger that we may not be
12:11able to come back because if the road is broken, then you could be stuck there.
12:15Um, and then of course the choice then was to float down the Sangpur Gorge, which is not, uh,
12:22which very few people in history have ever done.
12:26Right.
12:26You know, it's very, it's a huge, it's a precipitous fall, uh, down, down the river.
12:32Yeah, it is, it is a bit, I was checking that it, it's really a steep fall.
12:38Yeah, yeah.
12:38And many of the, uh, uh, great waterfalls, uh, which, uh, were, were, were thought to be,
12:48to exist were discovered.
12:49Some of them only recently by Western people, the Tibetans knew they were there.
12:54They're discovered in quotes, no?
12:57Because the Tibetans know these places as places of seclusion, of spiritual solace,
13:05of Pemaco, of the, you know, the hidden space, which is there in their texts and so on.
13:13So, um, they've always known about these places and they've been there.
13:17But to the outside world, it was a revelation.
13:22You know, I was fascinated by the sheer geological...
13:26You're, you're, you're asking me about what, what I remember most about Tibet.
13:31Huh?
13:32I'll tell you this, these two images.
13:34One is of, uh, a view that stretches to infinity.
13:41You know, like I have this image of, I have this photograph of a road,
13:45which is going straight.
13:47There's no deviation as far as you can see to the horizon.
13:52On one side, um, fields of buckwheat and mustard, golden yellow and the river.
14:00On the other side are, uh, uh, are croplands, which sort of merge into hills,
14:08which become mountains, sand and snow.
14:10You know, it's like something out of an incredible book, you know?
14:16And it's there in front of you and you can't even absorb it all, you know?
14:20Yeah, absolutely.
14:21It's spectacular.
14:23Some of this is changing because of thanks to, uh, thanks to what the Chinese are doing
14:29with infrastructure.
14:31They're building in fast trains and fast, better highways and building dams and all this sort of
14:37thing.
14:38These are the primary impressions of a very primary, primary power, you know, energy,
14:46physical energy, as well as spiritual energy, which exists in many of its spaces.
14:53Absolutely.
14:54You know, in, in, in my book, uh, about the Dalai Lama, I don't know if you're aware or not,
15:00uh, uh, it's, yeah.
15:02In fact, uh, my argument is that a lot of the appeal of not just Tibet, but even Tibetan
15:09Buddhism flows from the staggering nature of the way it's constructed geologically.
15:16I mean, if Tibet was just a normal plane, I, I seriously wonder whether it would have the
15:22same exotic appeal that it has even now on people.
15:25Uh, that's why my fascination with the land.
15:29And unfortunately, like I keep saying, I'm not able to travel.
15:32Anyway, to change a bit, uh, you write about, uh, your book, in fact, speaks of interesting
15:38characters, explorers, as you call them, spy masters, map makers.
15:43Tell me a bit, uh, more about that.
15:45What kind of characters are we talking?
15:47Well, there are explorers like, uh, the Swedish explorer, uh, Sven Hedden, who actually was the
15:56first, uh, Western, uh, uh, person to get to the location of the source of the
16:06Sangpo.
16:06Right.
16:07Which is the Chama Yungdung glacier.
16:09It's not the Mansurava river, uh, the lake as people tend to think, which is.
16:14No, it's not.
16:15No.
16:15There's, uh, emerged from, but it is near that.
16:20It's called the Chama Yungdung river, uh, near the glacier.
16:24Uh, in which it describes a fire forest.
16:27No, it's very graphic.
16:28It describes this forest of ice and, you know, break great eye for pieces falling off and
16:36breaking off and making crackles like thunder, you know, fascinating.
16:41Yeah.
16:42So, uh, then, uh, there were people like, uh, uh, Frank Bailey and, uh, and John, John
16:52Morseid, uh, John Morseid was, uh, uh, a surveyor who'd actually, uh, was a
16:59well-known climber and, uh, had, uh, had accompanied Mallory, I think, uh, on that
17:06expedition to, to Everest many years before this, but then he, he, uh, he and Bailey, who
17:15was actually a spy, he was, uh, for, to just to sum it up crudely, uh,
17:22in his monastery service and they went to explore the, whether the Brahmaputra and the
17:31Sangpoo were the same river.
17:33I see.
17:34Because in 1913, this had not been proved by anybody.
17:40And, uh, and so they were the first people going by the banks of the river who actually
17:49finally physically said, yes, this is with the, the way it goes.
17:55This is the way it comes.
17:56This is the flow.
17:58And these are its names.
18:00Uh, but there was, there were these, what I call these pundits who were, uh, uh, excellent
18:09mountaineers, pundits from, uh, uh, up in, uh, the Uttarakhand, uh, Himachal area whose
18:18families used to be on trading missions in Tibet and so on.
18:22So many of them spoke Tibetan and they would wear the poshak, the dress of, uh, local travelers
18:30and they were trained by the survey of India to take measurements.
18:34So in the rosaries would be, there would be more extra beads, which would let them count
18:41the number of faces in the spinning wheel.
18:44They would keep, uh, the, uh, surveyors equipment tiny.
18:50It's like something out of a James Bond movie without the glamour, you know, and they would
18:56take measurements and look at the, uh, the, the position of the sun and the stars and put
19:05all these down on pieces of paper, which they would do in code and put in their prayer wheel.
19:11And they would walk, walk hundreds of kilometers through floor, not just the river, make notes
19:19of what they saw and then come back, you know, sometimes by a different route.
19:23At times they were robbed and, uh, you know, uh, of all their things, but their basic, uh, tools
19:32remain the same.
19:32Right.
19:33So there are amazing stories like that.
19:37And that continued until, uh, well into the, uh, first, uh, 20 years of the, uh, 20th century.
19:47Right.
19:48Right.
19:48These are some of the stories.
19:49You know, the river in some ways is at the heart of Tibet and its struggles, cultural,
19:56environmental, political, even human.
19:59What is the difference between the way Tibetans see the Brahmaputra Sangpo and the way Indians see it?
20:08Well, that's a very good question because, uh, I think the Tibetans regard, uh, water bodies as sacred.
20:14They do not like the idea of damning them, uh, fishing in them, you know, using them for commerce.
20:22They're seeing this sacred spaces where many, because Tibet, you must remember, is not just land of Buddhism.
20:29It is a land where there are many spirits.
20:32There are many gods and goddesses.
20:35And, uh, which are supposed to live in certain parts of the hidden caves and, and cliffs and gorges of the country.
20:46You know, that's how, that's how it's, uh, in their minds, even now.
20:52And waterfalls behind waterfalls.
20:54Uh, in India, it's, uh, it's certainly when it comes into, uh, into, uh, our natural and so on, there is not that much discourse with the river.
21:05But as it comes down into the plains, there is a greater, uh, under, uh, you know, connect.
21:11But there is a story of Parshuram who is supposed to have cleaved or cleaved away for the river to flow down to the plains, the Lohit.
21:24Then, uh, in the Brahmaputra, the son of Brahma, et cetera, all these legends are there.
21:30So there are, there are different stories that connect people to it.
21:33But also, I think, uh, in, in, in, in the public imagination, uh, while that is still there, you know, places like Assam, uh, there is a greater political and economic, uh, uh, perception that has set in, which is that China's over there.
21:53They're, uh, using the river, weaponizing the waters.
21:56We have to sort of defend our rights, et cetera, et cetera.
22:00So that is also taking over, I think, people's perceptions.
22:05But many of the traditions still remain.
22:08People still pray to the river.
22:09People, uh, you know, they, they, they do believe that, uh, the river is an entity which they need to respect.
22:20Uh, and, uh, many of the muse, the musical compositions, the, the great ballads, the great songs, which were composed, not just by Bhupen Azarika, but by many before him, uh, have a connection to the Lohit, or the, as the Brahmaputra is also known, although it's a different river, and, uh, and to the Brahmaputra itself.
22:46And Bhupen Azarika, of course, made it to, not just regionally, but nationally and internationally, famous with his composition, Burha Lohit, which is about the old man river, you know, why do you flow so fiercely, responding to what you said, are you ignoring the cries of suffering humanity, and so on, you know, that's one of his great compositions.
23:10Right, right.
23:12Now, you mentioned, uh, you referred to weaponization of, uh, river waters.
23:17What, how serious is that threat?
23:19Perhaps not related to your book directly, but I want to understand your perspective.
23:24Do you think China could create trouble for India by harnessing, uh, the Brahmaputra, or even blocking it in some ways?
23:33See, the Brahmaputra is a very difficult entity to block, you know, I mean, uh, you cannot, uh, it is like, uh, uh, many tsunamis which go through that great gorge.
23:45Right.
23:46So you need, uh, you need an enormously safe, uh, dam in order to, uh, hold back water.
23:56Hold back water, but I think the Chinese are intent on using the water as it flows and not creating too much of a great, uh, lake.
24:06I see.
24:07Continuously releasing the water so there's no pressure because water is very heavy, as you know.
24:14Right.
24:15And the weight of water can cause immense damage to any, any, any obstacle that is in its way, whether it's a rock, a cliff, or a house or whatever, you know, a dam.
24:27So that's why they've been saying that, uh, you know, there won't be any, uh, reduction of the flow and all that.
24:36I see.
24:37I'm not, I'm not a hydrologist and I'm not a dam specialist.
24:41So, uh, and the Chinese have been very cautious and about, uh, the revelations of, of, on this particular dam, you know, it is going to be the world's biggest dam, et cetera, et cetera.
24:53But the details are not really known.
24:55Right.
24:56So it's still some 10 to 15 years in the making.
24:59So you just have to wait and see, I mean, downstairs, that's right.
25:03Downstream.
25:04I'm sorry.
25:05The lower Iberians are raising great concerns, but I think India needs to negotiate harder.
25:12I mean, it's been diverted by other issues, uh, on its borders, uh, and on, uh, other issues with China.
25:20But I really think that it needs to be a bit more hard nosed and practical about, uh, about, uh, water issues because it will affect the Northeast.
25:31It will affect the salmon.
25:33Right.
25:34Certainly it affects Bangladesh downstairs, down, downstream.
25:37Right.
25:38And that's the other thing about international rivers is that there are very few rivers in the world where the agreement between riparian countries, because there is no law, international law that's binding.
25:51The only convention.
25:52True, true, true.
25:54And there's no, and there's an international convention on rivers, but no, no binding treaties.
26:01Right.
26:02Uh, just last couple of things, Sanjay.
26:04One is why do you think the Brahmaputra has not been accorded the exalted status that the Ganga has been?
26:11Well, the Brahmaputra flows in a very distant part of India, technically speaking.
26:19I mean, the Ganga is much more, uh, next to Delhi.
26:24It's, uh, very much part of, uh, the, the, the, the, the history mythology and myth making and religious heart, uh, uh, the much larger populations which are affected by it.
26:41Right.
26:42You know, the greatest population that's affected by the Brahmaputra is not in Assam, not in India.
26:47It's in Bangladesh.
26:48Bangladesh, yes.
26:49So, uh, you know, the, I think all these factors do play in, it's, uh, both politics as much as anything else.
26:58Right.
26:59But now they're paying attention to it, but because of the fact that we do not have good relations with Bangladesh as of now, you, so you're building navigation channels.
27:09But where will you navigate to?
27:11True.
27:12I mean, the train stops at the border of Bangladesh, which means you can travel for 700 kilometers and that's it.
27:19You can't keep going up and down the river.
27:21Yeah.
27:22You know, carrying goods from one town to the other because that's better carried by, uh, by road and railway.
27:31Right.
27:32So, uh, we need to have better relations with Bangladesh so that it can open up.
27:38Uh, the route to international trade, which is how it always was.
27:42I mean, I remember a great Bangladeshi scholar, one of the founders of Bangladesh saying that, well, when I was a young man, we used to study in Lahore.
27:53We'd come to Calcutta.
27:54We'd take a, uh, ferry, uh, and, uh, cross over to, you know, if he described the route to Dhaka.
28:03Think about that.
28:04Yeah.
28:05It was, you know, he says, we need to get back to a much civilized, better civilized way of communicating and reaching out to each other.
28:14And rivers can teach us that.
28:16Absolutely.
28:17Rivers can teach us that because they don't recognize borders, hard borders.
28:21Right.
28:22Yes.
28:23Stories and music and cultures flow along rivers.
28:26Right.
28:27And in, in terms of, uh, to, to, to conclude, uh, Sanjoy, in terms of environmental degradation over the last 20 years or so, what's been your perspective?
28:38Because you've seen it from close quarters, uh, across different regions, like we said, from the Tibetan plateau, all the way to the Bay of Bengal, the Delta, et cetera.
28:51Well, each, uh, each, uh, nation, as it were, each part of the great basin, because the Brahmavutra is an entity, not just by itself, but because of all the other rivers and the elements of the river basin,
29:06which is the Magna Brahmavutra Ganga Basin, it's the, one of the greatest river basins of the world where, uh, you know, a large part of the world's population lives.
29:16So if you take just the countries, it doesn't do justice to the system, but anyway, we'll do it that way.
29:23Uh, Tibet has its own challenges because of the infrastructure, which is being put down by the Chinese, because of global warming, climate change, uh, the, the, the rain.
29:35The, the, the railways and infrastructure building, including tunneling and so on, which is being done at, at infinitum, uh, is damaging the permafrost.
29:45How much it's damaging?
29:46We don't know because that's, again, the, the ice that's locked into the soil of the land, you know, that's being released at a much faster pace.
29:57We don't know how to, at what pace, uh, when you come down the river, there are more dams, which are being built in Urnachal along the different, uh, uh, major streams that has an impact.
30:11And if you come down into SM because of the, uh, you know, the, naturally the government and the people demand development.
30:21So you will have to build bridges.
30:23You have to build roads infrastructure, but all these, especially the roads get damaged by the railways.
30:29Then they have to build more embankments and block the, to block the, uh, flooding.
30:37All these, uh, play, which is the liver.
30:39The river plays and battles and fights against these restrictions.
30:44And there is, as you go increasingly down the river, uh, down the route, there are three or four things as you go up to Bangladesh.
30:53There are three or four things that strike you.
30:55Is that because of the growing populations and the lack of sewage along the, uh, along those, that route, along the cities, uh, there's a lot of pollution that leaches into the river.
31:08Uh, on the farm as farms, but especially the plantation, a lot of pesticides flow into the river.
31:15There's a lot of, uh, use of very gill nets, which are actually banned for fish catching, even during the season when you're not supposed to catch fish because they breed and so on.
31:25And this is a challenge as it goes along, uh, the river.
31:30Uh, the river, I mean, there are the demands of development and ecological pressure, pressure on the environment or the river grows as a result.
31:38And it's a bit unfair on the river because it's been carrying this burden without complaining for centuries and millennia.
31:45Right.
31:46Much more pressure on it without caring for its needs.
31:50In Bangladesh, there is also acute pressure in terms of, uh, farming and fishing and the, uh, uh, the, uh, evacuation of waste products into the, into the river.
32:08So it becomes highly polluted as you go along.
32:11Uh, so these are some of the basic fundamental question, but, you know, a flood comes, a lot of this gets washed away.
32:19A lot of it gets cleared and then the river moves on.
32:23You see it in its great, uh, power and, and, uh, it's an indomitable spirit.
32:30But, uh, there are these acute pressures and we can't deny that as well as the, the, the challenges of climate change and displacement, which are caused by it because the river can be, uh, shallow at times of the summer.
32:47If the rains do not come in time, you know, and, uh, when that happens, uh, crops are devastated.
32:56Farmers lose their earnings, livelihoods are lost and people migrate.
33:00So migration is one of the things that is happening increasingly as a result of not the river running dry, but longer stretches of, of dry period.
33:11The dry season stretches now over several months.
33:13Uh, when I say dry, it's not bone dry.
33:16It's just the river is shrunk, you know, to a couple of channels.
33:21Yeah.
33:22But, uh, so, uh, these are the, the challenges that, that face the river.
33:30The river and all of us who live by it and are respectful to it and, and dependent on it.
33:37Because those who are dependent on it include those who don't know they're dependent on it.
33:42Indeed.
33:43Indeed, yeah.
33:44Uh, to conclude, where do you think it is at its prettiest in your journey?
33:48Where did you find it the, at its prettiest?
33:52Well, it's always pretty wherever you go.
33:56It's a handsome river.
33:57It's a male river.
33:58Right.
33:59It was probably pretty, but, uh, it's a handsome river.
34:03It's beautiful in the Bay of Bengal as you go out to you.
34:07It's beautiful inland, uh, but I think it's more rugged, most rugged and most challenging and most handsome in Tibet.
34:17Indeed.
34:18Yeah.
34:19That's what I thought, yeah.
34:20Truly.
34:21To satisfy your curiosity to the man who wrote about Tibet without going there.
34:27Yeah.
34:28I hope you will get it.
34:29I find it, it's interesting that a lot of the times people describe rivers as pretty beautiful, but Brahmaputra has the, it is very fiercely rugged, as you said.
34:40And, uh, I think the fact that it comes from Tibet has a great deal to do with it.
34:46I think that's so.
34:47And, you know, I'm always conscious.
34:49I mean, I remember standing at the, at the base of a gorge and looking up, you know, I'm seeing standing by the river, it's barely 20 feet wide at that point, but going like fury.
35:03Yeah.
35:04So extending a few rocks just near the river and you're looking up and you're saying, my God, this river tunnel through all this, you know, and I'm standing here.
35:16After press million, millions of years, you know, you realize your own smallness.
35:21Right.
35:22In the face of the largest scheme of things.
35:26And the other thing is that I always am grateful for.
35:29And it's a very simple thing.
35:30I don't swim.
35:31I see.
35:32And I've traveled from the river to the, from the, from the upper reaches in Tibet to where it ends at the Bay of Bengal.
35:43And I, the river gods have been the river and the river gods have been very kind to me and kept me safe.
35:52That's wonderful.
35:54Once again, congratulations on the book.
35:57I hope it does very well.
35:59At some point I'll get to it and read it.
36:03But these questions were mainly derived from what you sent me and a video of yours that I saw in the morning.
36:10There was an event in Bangalore, right?
36:13Yes.
36:14That's the one I know partly.
36:16Yeah.
36:17Yeah.
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