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Der Sicherheitsexperte erklärt, warum Islamismus weiterhin so bedrohlich ist, man den USA noch trauen kann und wieso sich Superreiche schützen müssen
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00:00Explosive drones at airports, burning railway tracks, hacker attacks on power plants,
00:04political manipulation, industrial espionage, and terrorist attacks.
00:09Reading the headlines of the past few months, one gets the feeling that
00:13that our society is falling apart.
00:15Against the backdrop of global wars and upheavals, our society also finds itself
00:19and the economy in Europe is exposed to many dangers.
00:22How acute is the threat situation really?
00:25Who is behind it? And how can we protect ourselves?
00:28I'll discuss this with someone who should know, Omar Hajjavi Pirchner.
00:32Until 2025, he was head of the Austrian State Security and Intelligence Service.
00:37I am Jolt Wilhelm, this is the topic of the day, the news podcast, the Standard.
00:46The next opportunity to see the topic of the day live is already on November 28th.
00:51namely at 10:30 am at the Vienna Book Fair.
00:54We are speaking with Wall Street journalist Bojan Panczewski,
00:57namely by blowing up the Nord Stream pipeline.
01:00It will be very exciting; he has investigated the case thoroughly.
01:04Our colleagues will be on site with their podcast all weekend.
01:07For example, on Thursday Inside Austria was discussing Toxic Fries
01:11and on Saturday afternoon, ready for series production, the famous mobile phone experiment.
01:15And also on Saturday afternoon, Germany's former Economics Minister Robert Habeck will be speaking
01:20to be a guest on the CEO podcast.
01:22You can find any tickets for the Vienna Book Fair that you didn't miss in the show notes.
01:26Omar Hajjavi-Pirchner, welcome to today's topic.
01:28Good day.
01:30Mr. Hajjavi-Pirchner, you were in office from the end of 2021 until the end of 2025.
01:34Head of the Austrian Directorate of State Security and Intelligence.
01:38I'm checking that for safety.
01:39What exactly does that mean? What was your specific job?
01:42The Directorate for State Security and Intelligence was implemented in 2021.
01:47as Austria's new constitutional protection agency,
01:50divided between a civilian intelligence service and a police state security agency.
01:55And I headed that agency.
01:57But what did your job entail? You need to give us a little insight.
02:01Ultimately, the agency's role is to ward off a wide variety of dangers.
02:07to be recognized in the sense of an early warning system.
02:09We are talking about terrorism here, but at the same time we are also talking about espionage,
02:14Sabotage and threats that attack the constitution and democracy.
02:19And there is certainly a lot to do in that area at the moment.
02:22I can imagine that when you have to deal with so many threat situations,
02:26Then, of course, that also affects the psyche in some way.
02:28Did that bother you?
02:30No, not on the psyche, because you naturally bring a certain personal resilience with you.
02:35I already trained myself to do that during my previous time as a police officer.
02:39And I think people who work in such environments
02:43or deal with such topics on a daily basis
02:45They need a high degree of resilience.
02:48Has it changed anyone?
02:49You might see things differently,
02:51But it's still a normal life.
02:54You can move around normally in public spaces.
02:56You would go to a restaurant or a sporting event in the same way.
03:00like all other citizens.
03:02Did you sleep with a red phone by your side?
03:05No, I didn't sleep with a red phone by my side.
03:08Let's come back to your job back then later.
03:12They had taken office before the war in Ukraine.
03:16What was the focus of your work before the Ukraine war?
03:20And how did that change after the Russian invasion?
03:24Yes, of course.
03:25So the authority was implemented at a time when
03:29where we had a lot to do in the context of the Corona pandemic.
03:32Then the war in Ukraine came along,
03:35a few months after the agency's reinstallation.
03:38That was a major concern for us back then.
03:41And if one looks at the world in general,
03:44then the geopolitical implications ensured that
03:47that the authority is constantly facing new challenges,
03:50just like society, just like the economy.
03:53Can you say today,
03:54that Russia is the greatest threat to Europe?
03:57No, I can't do that.
03:59because I can say that from my current perspective
04:01only look like it's about one central theme
04:03and that is the one of economic security
04:05or security in companies.
04:08And there are many threats.
04:10Russia's role as a state actor is a fact.
04:13But there are many other threats.
04:15In general, what is the threat situation in Austria?
04:18for society,
04:19This must be done by the State Security Directorate.
04:22and respond to messages.
04:23But you yourself were at the head of that authority.
04:25What was your impression at the time?
04:26Of course, but times move very quickly.
04:29This means that threat situations are constantly evolving.
04:31and therefore I can no longer tell you,
04:33which is currently relevant.
04:34Russia was just as much a concern for us back then,
04:38as well as extremism in all its facets,
04:42Primarily in Islamist extremism and terrorism.
04:45I believe this is also reflected in the large number of official acts,
04:47which the authority led at that time.
04:49But the same applies to other areas.
04:51such as right-wing extremism, left-wing extremism
04:53and new reforms that our times bring us today.
04:56We will discuss Islamism later.
04:59But we are currently experiencing a lot of reports.
05:04about acts of sabotage, about possible attacks,
05:08Hybrid attacks against Europe from the Russian side.
05:11You already said beforehand,
05:13They cannot address specific cases,
05:15Clearly, what was determined.
05:17But if we need to imagine it more vividly,
05:20How does such a hybrid war actually work?
05:23if it is led by a state
05:25against an entire continent.
05:26I don't want to call it a hybrid war.
05:30I would see them more as individual hybrid attacks.
05:34That's what we're currently seeing in Austria.
05:36In other European countries, the situation is currently quite different.
05:39And I'm not saying that we also have this in Austria.
05:41Situations may develop or arise in the coming months,
05:45which are similar.
05:46What does that mean?
05:47Hybrid attacks or hybrid threats
05:49Threats are things like small pinpricks,
05:52which are constantly being set by a wide variety of factors.
05:54We're not just talking about sabotage here.
05:57We are talking about sabotage, disinformation, and manipulation.
06:01And I would also like to say that extremism is also a threat.
06:04which can be specifically set here.
06:06Because ultimately, it's about the state actors,
06:09who are responsible for this
06:10to destabilize societies and democracies
06:14and to force them to take action.
06:16That is, it's about showing,
06:18A, the state cannot adequately protect you.
06:21This affects businesses as well as society.
06:24And B, you therefore cannot be sure.
06:26Ultimately, it's something similar to terrorism.
06:29which also involves restricting society accordingly.
06:33They said Austria is not yet affected to that extent,
06:36like other countries.
06:37In Germany we have one or more explosive drones.
06:39We've already had it at airports.
06:41Would you say that one is already in a situation where...
06:44Yes, already in a larger conflict in a certain way?
06:47Naturally.
06:48It's always about this,
06:49Today I see it from the perspective of companies in Austria.
06:52but generally in Europe.
06:54And here it must already be said,
06:55that the situation is developing here.
06:57So the threat picture is becoming more diffuse.
07:00and the number of attacks is also increasing.
07:03Ultimately, though, we're still in Austria.
07:05not comparable to other European countries,
07:08if you look at Germany, for example
07:09or especially to the Baltic states.
07:11You mentioned that extremism is also being used.
07:15from such state actors as Russia.
07:18There is always the suspicion that...
07:19that, for example, during protest marches,
07:22where people are demonstrating against something,
07:25that these protest marches, for example, are supported by this
07:28with shadowy figures who might then further incite the situation,
07:33to ruin something
07:34to seek confrontation with the police.
07:37We have experienced the same thing in the migration debate,
07:41Refugee movement, keyword.
07:43Does this really happen, or is it, so to speak,
07:45A more or less justified suspicion?
07:48So I think it's no secret to say today,
07:51That something like this naturally happens
07:52and that state actors always consider,
07:55how they affect individual systems, political systems,
07:58but also entire societies, democracies
08:00could put them under pressure.
08:02And these are the facets you mentioned,
08:04Areas that can be applied,
08:06That something like this happens is clear.
08:07But what exactly is the situation?
08:09current situation in Austria,
08:10The authorities would have to answer that.
08:12In terms of functionality alone,
08:14How does the state security service respond?
08:16or as an authority, such covert operations.
08:20That must be difficult to determine.
08:23So you would have to do that too, of course.
08:25Ultimately, ask the authorities.
08:26You have to look.
08:27And I think that's what the authority wants to achieve.
08:30and what they have done in recent months and years
08:32has achieved very well
08:33From my point of view, awareness is increasing.
08:36Not only in society,
08:37but also in the media,
08:40in politics,
08:41but also in the economy
08:43and among entrepreneurs.
08:45And that's definitely where we are in Austria.
08:47on the right track,
08:48which certainly has room for improvement.
08:50But it has changed in recent months
08:51and developed something special over the years.
08:54And that's exactly what we need to stick to.
08:56This needs to be pushed forward further.
08:57precisely because of these topics, constantly
08:59to bring it to the forefront somewhere.
09:00And it must be possible,
09:03to discuss these things as well,
09:04even if they are of course negative
09:06and if we are not all equally good
09:07also dealing with these threats personally,
09:10So it's about time,
09:12Yes, to raise awareness and provide information.
09:14And it is ultimately today
09:16also a topic of education.
09:17It's about,
09:18that one can address all these threats,
09:20hybrid threats with all their facets,
09:22which we have already discussed,
09:24also puts it into people's heads
09:25society, the population in Austria,
09:28so that one is prepared.
09:29In Germany we have seen,
09:31that politicians
09:32after such acts of sabotage,
09:34after actions where it is assumed that
09:37They were instigated by Russia, at least.
09:41that they have difficulty with it,
09:43to name that.
09:44First, I believe,
09:45with the temperamental drones
09:47attempted drone attack,
09:48Politicians have now commented
09:50and to put it clearly,
09:51No, that was a Russian operation.
09:53Can you understand,
09:54why it is so difficult for politicians to
09:56How to name the actor there?
09:58So, as I said earlier,
09:59It is necessary
10:00to speak clearly,
10:01but it is also necessary
10:03Only present facts as facts when necessary,
10:06if there are also occupiers.
10:07And I can understand that, therefore.
10:09because we are very often only talking about assumptions here.
10:13That's what authorities are for, after all.
10:14who deal with such topics.
10:16And if, ultimately, the proof is lacking,
10:18then it is difficult,
10:19here too, to go outside with a claim.
10:21That means there is a great deal of sensitivity involved.
10:24also required in the diction.
10:26And I see them again and again.
10:27although I do think
10:29that we need to define the danger situation more specifically
10:32as a whole society.
10:34What makes it so difficult,
10:35to clearly document such actions
10:39To prove clearly?
10:40Ultimately, it's always about...
10:43also to have the necessary resources,
10:45to avoid such things happening early on,
10:47but also to be able to present it well afterwards.
10:49And I don't want to anymore now
10:51address the needs of the authority,
10:53Because from today's perspective, I'm no longer entitled to that.
10:56But I would like to refer to the many interviews,
10:58which I gave during my time as Director of the DSN,
11:01where I have repeatedly drawn attention to this,
11:03that the authority would need far more powers.
11:07And times have changed.
11:09In contrast, the powers have changed.
11:11not massively developed in recent years,
11:13with the exception of messenger monitoring,
11:15which the federal government has now put on track.
11:17However, I cannot tell you
11:19what the current status of implementation is.
11:21But this measure is of course one,
11:23which the authority also needs
11:25to keep a constant eye on the dangers.
11:27Let's come back to that later.
11:29Before I do this, I would like to know,
11:30What is the goal?
11:31when a state actor sabotages civilian infrastructure,
11:36when one carries out acts of sabotage,
11:37What if someone spreads disinformation?
11:39I already mentioned it earlier.
11:41So ultimately, it's about...
11:42to destabilize society as a whole,
11:44to misinform them
11:46and thereby create a mood.
11:48And I think we all see these moods today.
11:50in our daily environment,
11:52both private and professional.
11:54There are just some people,
11:55who are becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the situation,
11:58with the situation.
11:59This ultimately leads to polarization,
12:01In some aspects, it also leads to extremism.
12:04And that's ultimately it,
12:05that state actors want to create.
12:08Vienna is considered the spy capital.
12:12Historically grown.
12:13Is that still the case?
12:14So, what is the current situation now?
12:16I can't tell you the details right now, of course.
12:18Until the end of 2025.
12:19But it's also no secret,
12:21If you read the 2025 report on the protection of the constitution,
12:25the Directorate of State Security and Intelligence Service
12:27has released
12:28and also the reports of the Office for the Protection of the Constitution in the years prior,
12:31where I was also largely responsible for,
12:33It is always clearly stated there
12:35that Vienna in the field of espionage
12:38but it can also be seen as a city
12:40which has a particular problem here.
12:42For anyone who has a romanticized view of espionage,
12:45How does modern espionage work?
12:47I think that is very often the factor,
12:49who is misrepresented
12:50because if we,
12:51and I'm noticing that right now in my work,
12:54in companies in Europe,
12:56that we often,
12:57when we think about espionage,
12:59so like James Bond somewhere believe
13:01This is about a targeted,
13:03extremely sensitive and confidential information,
13:05but espionage is very often something,
13:08which is viewed much more broadly
13:09and much wider or visible
13:11and which is being implemented on a much broader scale.
13:13That means it's very often about strategies,
13:15to develop new products,
13:17that come onto the market somewhere,
13:19that are being developed.
13:20In Austria, we are currently experiencing a situation in the economy
13:23very high level of expertise.
13:24Our industry is very efficient,
13:26She can do a lot
13:27and this leads to
13:29that state actors in times of geopolitical crises,
13:31as it is now,
13:32also come massively into focus
13:34and the effects of that
13:35I now see in my new role
13:37and espionage is very often
13:39not seen that way
13:40how it actually happens
13:42but very often mystified.
13:44Are there still James Bond films and Venus flytraps?
13:47There are many different methods,
13:49how news agencies and intelligence services work
13:52and that also has an effect
13:53in a wide variety of facets,
13:55But very often it's not like it is on television.
13:57Who is currently the most active in espionage?
13:59So, who is currently the most active?
14:01I can't tell you.
14:03What we are currently seeing in the economy,
14:05is that the actors,
14:07which are also mentioned daily in the newspapers,
14:10from you as media,
14:11including those who play a role.
14:13That is to say, Russia, of course, primarily.
14:15in connection with the war in Ukraine,
14:18but also countries like Iran, of course,
14:21China also plays a special role here.
14:23especially in the technical way
14:24and many other countries as well
14:27things that are not regularly discussed
14:28but the individual facets,
14:30especially in economic espionage,
14:32They also play a role.
14:34We have, and you tell me,
14:36whether you can talk about it or not,
14:37with the case of Egisto Ott,
14:39one of the most serious
14:41Austria has never had any espionage scandals.
14:42Egisto Ott, I have to read this aloud now,
14:44is a former chief inspector
14:46of the former Federal Office
14:47for the protection of the constitution and the fight against terrorism,
14:50who was accused of
14:51as a mole for Russian intelligence services
14:53spied on and confidential state-
14:54and to have disclosed personal data
14:57to have passed it on.
14:58He was not convicted in 2026, but the verdict was not legally binding.
15:01to four years in prison.
15:02This case was indeed an occasion for,
15:05that this domestic intelligence agency
15:06It will be completely rebuilt under your leadership.
15:09because its reputation had suffered massive damage
15:13and Western intelligence services
15:14presumably no longer had any trust
15:16into the Austrian intelligence service
15:18or the Office for the Protection of the Constitution.
15:19How did you experience this case?
15:22So, as I experienced the case,
15:23I can't tell you in detail,
15:25because that falls within a time,
15:27which I don't want to talk about today
15:29and cannot.
15:30That is to say, regarding the case you mentioned
15:32I would prefer not to give you any information.
15:34You will need to adjust accordingly.
15:35contact the authorities.
15:36It is no longer my right to do so today,
15:37to judge these things,
15:39because I no longer bear any responsibility for it.
15:42Can you still say,
15:42whether this was an isolated incident
15:44or just the tip of the iceberg?
15:46That's a good question.
15:47and I just a few days ago
15:50had a conversation
15:51and there is now also in Germany
15:52another case
15:54which is being discussed very intensely in the media
15:56in the field of espionage
15:58and in that area,
15:59where alleged former employees
16:01or current employees
16:02are suspected of being
16:03to have carried out espionage activities here,
16:06at least that much
16:07as can be seen in the media.
16:08And I keep saying there,
16:10where secret information is traded,
16:12Conflicts frequently arise there.
16:15And these are conflicts,
16:17which ultimately
16:18from individual disciplinary
16:20or misconduct under civil service law
16:21portrayed as scandals in the media.
16:24Very often, things are overdramatized.
16:27how things really are.
16:28The fact is,
16:29This isn't just a phenomenon in Austria.
16:30or in Germany,
16:31This exists in almost every country in the world.
16:33And this can also be seen in the media.
16:36That means,
16:36One should focus on this.
16:38What role did the individual person play?
16:41but then focus less on it,
16:43How efficient are the authorities behind it?
16:46and what mistakes did they make?
16:47They have restructured this management.
16:50Have you relied on it more securely?
16:51or leave in a better condition
16:53when you found them?
16:55That's for sure,
16:56But you know,
16:57I've always done it that way before,
16:59regarding the authority's security measures
17:01I can't give you any information today anyway.
17:04I wouldn't have done that a few months ago either.
17:06Because security is there for that purpose,
17:08to create security
17:10and if we were to talk about measures,
17:12then that would not be productive in the public sphere
17:14and ultimately, in that time,
17:17where I was responsible for the authority,
17:19my team and I certainly very much,
17:21They offered a great many good services.
17:23We did a good job,
17:24we developed the agency,
17:26although knowing,
17:27that just such an authority
17:29also requires constant development.
17:31Just what we discussed earlier,
17:33geopolitical threats or changes,
17:36which arise quite inevitably
17:38must always also be considered in terms of performance
17:41to be incorporated into an authority.
17:42Therefore, it is a continuous evaluation.
17:44Why did you leave DSN?
17:46So I left DSN for personal reasons
17:50And there has been a great deal of speculation.
17:52including media coverage, whatever the underlying reasons may be.
17:55There's absolutely nothing behind it.
17:56except my personal decision.
17:58I spent 26 years in the Ministry of the Interior,
18:02in a wide variety of positions.
18:03I loved the job very much,
18:05in all its facets.
18:06I was an investigator,
18:07I was the head of a state criminal investigation office,
18:08I ended up being
18:09in the Director of the Office for the Protection of the Constitution of the DSN
18:13and I did everything with my heart and soul
18:14and done with full commitment.
18:16I didn't really have that much to say about it,
18:18as it is rumored,
18:19caused media scandals or other issues
18:21or made a mistake.
18:22I certainly wasn't kicked out.
18:24Just yesterday I was on LinkedIn
18:25received a comment under one of my posts,
18:29that it's a shame,
18:30that I was kicked out.
18:32No, I can only laugh at these things.
18:34But sometimes it also makes me quite thoughtful,
18:37because I think
18:38It is possible in this day and age
18:39simply not accepted
18:41that people who are in the public eye,
18:44make a decision,
18:44for her, a personal one.
18:46For me, it was saying,
18:47after 26 years,
18:48I would like to do something different again.
18:50and with the founding of my company
18:53I did that.
18:54That was my wish,
18:55That was my dream
18:56And I live that life.
18:57It is also true that
18:59that it must be allowed,
19:00Although it is not common in Austria,
19:02But it must be allowed,
19:03that there is a change between the private sector
19:05and public service
19:07and I think
19:08Both the public sector and the civil service would benefit from this.
19:10as well as the private sector.
19:11That means,
19:12I would be more in favor of
19:13that such models can somehow be,
19:14as is common practice in other countries,
19:16for example in Scandinavia
19:18or indeed in the United States
19:20or in many other countries it is common
19:22and I think
19:23There is added value for both sides.
19:25Therefore, one should be able to accept such things.
19:28What do you think,
19:29What is the reason for this?
19:30that some people tried
19:32to defame oneself?
19:33This is partly due to,
19:36that I am certainly also due to my personality
19:39I very often polarize
19:40and that I also because of that,
19:43what I have achieved in my life,
19:44It is, of course, very often viewed critically.
19:47But I also believe
19:48that definitely envy
19:50repeatedly sparks debate
19:52in this context.
19:53Ultimately, one doesn't want to believe it.
19:55that someone is a person,
19:56where he supposedly appeared in public
19:58but it is very highly regarded
20:00and perhaps also has some power
20:02is also ready
20:02to relinquish this power.
20:03I think,
20:04That's a personal opinion.
20:06a personal matter.
20:07There are certainly many others.
20:09in the public service
20:10who also have the desire to
20:12to do something else somewhere else
20:13but not take that step,
20:14because it is natural
20:15to say, leaving one's comfort zone
20:18especially as a tenured civil servant,
20:20Okay, I'll give you these basics.
20:22which I have here, on
20:23and try here
20:25to operate on an entrepreneurial basis,
20:26which is also a risk,
20:28Because it's not that simple.
20:29to start a company today
20:31and to say,
20:32This will be successful
20:33Perhaps also with responsibility
20:34for employees,
20:36how it is with me.
20:37But I think
20:39Here, each person must decide for themselves.
20:41how they personally
20:42how she deals with her own situation.
20:44Before we discuss your new role
20:45to come to talk
20:46Elections have just taken place in the USA.
20:49This is what it looks like,
20:50as if Donald Trump had
20:51They have had to face a lot of headwinds.
20:54But we also see
20:55in the last two years
20:56based on the USA,
20:57how quickly independent authorities
20:59even in a democracy
21:01politically restructured
21:02or can be misused.
21:04And suddenly it happens
21:05an FBI apparatus was used,
21:07to persecute political opponents,
21:09etc.
21:09But we are also experiencing in Europe,
21:13like the FPÖ and AfD, for example.
21:16at least the propaganda, again and again
21:19from Russia, etc., for example.
21:22and actually stand up for something
21:25which now affects the cohesion of Europe
21:26would weaken.
21:28Does that worry you?
21:30Regardless of politics, it worries me
21:33that disinformation is now important to many people
21:36It is the basis for forming an opinion.
21:39and ultimately this also leads to
21:40then to polarization
21:41and to extremism
21:42as I mentioned earlier.
21:44But I do believe so.
21:44that we thank God
21:45in a strong democratic state,
21:48living in a strong rule of law state,
21:49where democratic changes
21:51are necessary
21:52and so it is apparently
21:53now also in the USA.
21:54This is an election result,
21:56that on a democratic basis
21:57came about
21:58And that must be accepted.
22:00So, what's the final outcome?
22:01the facets into one
22:02or take a different direction
22:04That's a different story altogether.
22:05The fact is,
22:06what we are currently seeing,
22:08that more and more margins are also being served
22:10that is something,
22:11which worries me personally,
22:12independently of,
22:15what the initiative behind it is
22:17and in which direction
22:18a choice then really goes ahead
22:19because it's the end
22:21a democratic result,
22:22that must also be accepted.
22:23As a former intelligence officer,
22:26What is your opinion on these trends?
22:28from far-right parties,
22:31autocratic systems
22:33to establish themselves in Europe?
22:35So I don't know now
22:37the exact European political situation
22:39and what it looks like.
22:41I mean,
22:41If you look at Germany,
22:43then you can see
22:43some of the things that go on there,
22:45independently of,
22:46whether it is now in the extreme left area
22:48or is in the extreme right-wing sphere.
22:50But the fact is,
22:51Thank God we have in Austria
22:53but a rather different system
22:54and here's the situation
22:57but another
22:58as in many other European
22:59or countries worldwide.
23:01During your term of office,
23:03and I know,
23:03You cannot discuss a case,
23:05But I would still like to address this point.
23:07during your term of office
23:07A terrorist attack was carried out.
23:08to a Taylor Swift concert
23:10thwarted in Vienna.
23:12Can you comment on this?
23:13how many such attack attempts
23:15be thwarted,
23:17of which we hear nothing at all?
23:18Yes, I can do that because of this,
23:20because it was in a media release
23:22the Ministry of the Interior.
23:23I don't know the current figures,
23:25but I know
23:26during my time as DSN Director
23:28I think it was
23:28eleven or twelve keystrokes,
23:30which we prevented back then
23:33or which the authority has prevented.
23:34And ultimately, there it is,
23:36as I mentioned earlier,
23:37There is a lot to do.
23:38And from today's perspective
23:40That's why I'm worried about it
23:41because we also see,
23:43that of course people,
23:45who become radicalized
23:46in certain aspects of extremism,
23:49from left, right,
23:50about Islamist, nihilistic
23:52or ultimately heterodox,
23:53then also work in companies
23:55and there as an employee,
23:57as an employee
23:57also a problem
23:58can represent a company.
24:01And that's why it's needed
24:02our full attention,
24:04here as a society,
24:05as a citizen
24:07to make a contribution
24:08that extremism
24:09cannot enforce it further.
24:11They have now several times
24:12when these topics were addressed,
24:14that the dangers
24:15They can come from various sides
24:17and you try
24:18to leave out no extremism.
24:21To put it bluntly,
24:22Why is this so important?
24:23It is therefore important
24:25because in all forms
24:26extremism,
24:27especially in Austria
24:28but in Europe,
24:29Action is needed.
24:30And of course there are
24:31individual aspects,
24:32which in individual forms
24:33extremism is more dangerous
24:35for our society.
24:36I mean,
24:37If you look at the numbers,
24:39then it must be clearly stated,
24:40that we in Austria
24:41in recent years
24:42terrorist attacks
24:43had in the Islamist spectrum.
24:45And that was already the case in my time.
24:47I a few months ago
24:49Another interview
24:50my successor belongs
24:51who said,
24:52Islamist extremism
24:53and terrorism
24:54from their point of view
24:55the danger,
24:56which is currently the largest
24:57for the Republic.
24:58I can absolutely understand that.
24:59and would I use my expertise
25:01from earlier
25:01to classify as absolutely equal
25:03because we see
25:04that this form of extremism
25:06that is
25:06the fastest
25:07with acts of violence,
25:08which is ready the fastest,
25:10including carrying out acts of violence.
25:11The radicalization in the background
25:13The same thing happens in all areas.
25:15and it is also
25:16in right-wing extremism
25:17plenty to do
25:18just like in left-wing extremism
25:19and especially left-wing extremism
25:21is something
25:21which is currently massive
25:22is on the rise.
25:23What is the reason for this?
25:24That's because
25:26that
25:26these geopolitical events,
25:29which we are now talking about,
25:30we have already
25:31talked about the war in Ukraine,
25:32We haven't done it yet today.
25:33October 7, 2023
25:35and the attack
25:35named after Hamas in Israel,
25:37we haven't yet
25:38about the war
25:39now also spoken in Iran
25:41and all things,
25:42who are usually in the background
25:43still exist.
25:44All these facets
25:45naturally have an effect
25:46on the forms of extremism
25:47and that's why
25:48all types of extremism
25:50from my point of view
25:51on the rise.
25:52Austria is now
25:53no partner
25:54or is on no page
25:56a current conflict.
25:57Why is this the case in Austria?
25:58Is this such a serious problem?
26:01Extremism?
26:02So, extremism
26:03is something
26:04which is not only in Austria
26:04one problem is,
26:05This is true in all
26:06European countries
26:07or a global problem.
26:09You can see that,
26:10that individual aspects
26:11constantly evolving
26:12and one innovation,
26:14which also
26:14not only in Austria,
26:15but applies throughout the world,
26:17are the possibilities
26:19on the internet,
26:20the possibilities
26:20the digitization,
26:22that arise today.
26:23An exchange is much faster,
26:24a radicalization
26:25can be done through the internet
26:26much faster.
26:29The radicalization spiral
26:30then turns
26:31much faster in comparison
26:32like in old times,
26:33where regularly
26:33then meetings took place
26:35but not permanently.
26:36Through the mobile phone,
26:37through PCs
26:38am I able today to
26:39all my free time,
26:41if I am not employed,
26:42maybe even all day
26:44to consume that,
26:45what me in my world
26:46which further
26:47now viewed from an extremist point of view
26:49and where I always quickly drift off
26:51or in the spiral of radicalization
26:52I turn around.
26:53And ultimately
26:54Is that it?
26:55what is happening today
26:56how this affects the situation.
26:57I have this Taylor Swift case
26:58that's why it was also addressed
26:59because back then it was said,
27:00without foreign authorities,
27:02which provided the crucial clues
27:03have delivered
27:04We would have been defenseless.
27:06Was that so?
27:06Is that so?
27:08We often talk about individual cases.
27:11It is no longer my right to do so today,
27:13about information gathering
27:15the Directorate of State Security
27:16and intelligence service
27:18But I would like a lance
27:19for the authority
27:20Even as a former director, I'm already breaking down.
27:22It is wrong,
27:23always seeing only the negative,
27:25because likewise
27:26that we of course
27:27as an intelligence service
27:29received a lot of information from outside
27:31Has the authority during my time,
27:33and I assume,
27:34That's no different today.
27:35also a lot of information
27:36shared with foreign states
27:38where terrorist attacks also occurred
27:39were prevented abroad.
27:41That's not something that's discussed.
27:42This is not reported.
27:44And so it is presented in a one-sided manner.
27:45Ultimately, I can
27:46From my point of view, I can say today,
27:48That's in the authority
27:49just like in companies,
27:51So much information is at play,
27:53and through digitization,
27:54especially now through artificial intelligence,
27:56is the volume of data developing so rapidly,
27:58the large number of data volumes
28:00will grow so big
28:01that no one is able to
28:03to be able to assess that independently and autonomously
28:05or to be able to stockpile.
28:07And that's why it's especially important with government agencies.
28:09today: collaboration and networking
28:11more important than ever.
28:13Is the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, then,
28:15intelligence work
28:16Is that even possible today?
28:18without the cooperation,
28:20the international one?
28:21Not from my point of view.
28:22During your time in office, you also said
28:25as you have already mentioned,
28:27that Austria's laws
28:28are too restrictive for monitoring
28:30and back then you also had this messenger monitoring service,
28:33At that time the keyword was also used
28:35Often called the federal Trojan horse.
28:38Do you still see it that way today?
28:39Are the laws too restrictive?
28:41Yes, of course.
28:43My personal opinion,
28:44Or now it's my personal opinion,
28:47Previously, it was the opinion of a department head,
28:49It hasn't changed.
28:51I do think so,
28:52that these new danger situations
28:53must ensure that
28:55that we as a society,
28:56that the authorities, as well as the economy,
28:59can view data
29:01which are necessary
29:02to protect oneself preventively, so to speak.
29:04And that, of course, affects
29:06all the facets,
29:07which you mentioned.
29:08And yes, I think so.
29:09We still need development here.
29:11How dependent is our security apparatus?
29:14in Europe towards the USA?
29:16Yes, it's no secret.
29:18that the USA is a major player worldwide.
29:20That has absolutely nothing to do with it.
29:20dealing with intelligence services or authorities.
29:23We are not only dependent on that,
29:26but we are active in many areas.
29:27We constantly talk about digital sovereignty.
29:30In Europe, consider this:
29:32what that would mean
29:33if we rely on American systems tomorrow
29:36would have to do without
29:37or if we no longer had the means,
29:39to use their systems
29:40then it would get dark relatively quickly
29:42in some areas.
29:44And that's why it's time to
29:46that one positions oneself more confidently
29:47and makes one more independent.
29:49They have the political development
29:51experienced in recent years.
29:53Would you say,
29:53Can the USA still be trusted?
29:56Of course, the USA can be trusted.
29:57It always depends on the specific area.
29:59I already mentioned earlier,
30:01just because you deal with individual people
30:03perhaps disagrees
30:05and because one does the active thing
30:08negatively evaluated by individuals
30:10One should never in any way
30:11to conclude that an entire country.
30:13That is to say, yes, I see it that way.
30:15You have already mentioned,
30:16that we from the USA
30:18are dependent in so many areas.
30:20The major technology companies
30:20They are all based in the USA.
30:22The USA is a pioneer in AI.
30:26Now Trump and his administration
30:28I've often thought about it aloud,
30:31that one can provide certain services to Europe
30:33They might turn away if you don't comply.
30:36Are we at the mercy of the USA?
30:38I don't want to say delivered,
30:40But as I mentioned earlier,
30:42We are still dependent in many ways,
30:44although the situation is improving.
30:45Let me give you an example.
30:47We talk about AI systems very often,
30:50the, and I see this massively now,
30:52have a very high importance in the economy,
30:54They are of great importance to companies.
30:56There are some very, very good American systems here.
30:59There are equally very, very good Chinese systems.
31:02And there are smaller, but more sophisticated systems,
31:05which are hosted, developed and operated in Europe.
31:08And that means, this is about...
31:09also to undertake diversification.
31:14and also to mix services,
31:16so that if something is no longer available,
31:18suddenly remaining capable of acting.
31:20I think that's an essential building block of resilience.
31:23And this must be considered in all its facets.
31:25especially applicable in digitalization,
31:27regardless of whether we talk about AI
31:29or large data systems, clouds, and so on.
31:33Such diversification is necessary everywhere.
31:37Moreover, just like with supply chains,
31:39We saw this particularly after the pandemic of 2020 or 2021.
31:43There have been many reports of cases in recent weeks,
31:47in which AI agents have hacked companies or websites.
31:51At the same time, AI is being used in the security sector.
31:54I believe you've already mentioned that.
31:56What are your thoughts on the possibilities of AI?
31:59So I think AI is something that offers wonderful opportunities.
32:03Not only for the economy,
32:04but also for us as citizens.
32:06And we should also use AI.
32:08We can't defend ourselves against it anyway.
32:10because AI is so fast today,
32:12that if we don't jump on the bandwagon,
32:14will never arrive.
32:16But, and these are the two important aspects,
32:18We must be aware of this.
32:20what you mentioned,
32:21that AI can also be a tool for attack today
32:23and is happening more and more often.
32:25Especially in the cyber sector, as you mentioned,
32:27Cyberattacks happen much faster today
32:29by discovering security vulnerabilities,
32:32through detection by AI,
32:33Cyberattacks are now possible much faster.
32:36And we must be aware of this danger.
32:38On the one hand, we need to raise awareness,
32:40that this simply cannot happen
32:42or that we exhibit a high sensitivity,
32:44simultaneously implement systems,
32:46that we are protected in the best possible way.
32:48But what is the second aspect,
32:50and I see him regularly,
32:52that we then simply use and apply AI in some way
32:56without significant regulatory oversight
32:58and without thinking about it,
33:00when we feed certain data into the AI,
33:02what that also means in this context,
33:05which data might then be held by a state actor
33:08will be available at some point.
33:10And I think we need to address that as well.
33:12especially in the economy and the corporate world,
33:14Extensive regulations are necessary for this.
33:18not only for the employees,
33:20but for the organization as a whole.
33:23When you consider AI,
33:25Which danger do you consider to be the greatest?
33:28which originates from AI?
33:31What is the greatest danger of AI?
33:34or the largest one originating from AI,
33:37I don't think we can answer that yet.
33:39because if you think about it,
33:40how the development has been in recent weeks alone
33:42and months was with models,
33:45then we'll see,
33:46that new aspects are constantly being added here.
33:48This means that good forecasting is needed here.
33:50to guess,
33:51What could happen in the coming weeks and months?
33:54What do we need to prepare for?
33:56But basically, I think there are two issues.
33:58On the one hand, there is the data loss,
34:00precisely because data is used naively
34:02or be thoughtlessly fed into an AI
34:05but on the other hand, also the topics,
34:07that AI is of course also capable of
34:09to achieve independent solutions.
34:11There are some good reports about that now, too.
34:14Entropic just launched its safety report in September.
34:18It clearly states inside,
34:19You can read all about it there without any problems.
34:21Whatever dangers may exist.
34:22And I think
34:23We must also be aware of these risks.
34:25and must be used when employing AI
34:27Use your brain too.
34:29Today you advise business and industry
34:31in security matters.
34:33What are the biggest risks for companies today?
34:36Ultimately, it's a mixture.
34:39On the one hand, there are the hybrid threats already discussed.
34:42such as espionage, sabotage, and influencing in general,
34:45but also disinformation
34:47but also extremism
34:49and ultimately, terrorism.
34:51I'll come back to that later.
34:53But of course, topics like crime are also included.
34:55or organized crime,
34:57which are becoming more popular again.
34:58We see through the financial tension
35:01now in individual states,
35:03that crime is changing somewhat again.
35:06That phenomena,
35:06who may have been pushed back in recent years,
35:09are now becoming more popular again
35:10And companies need to prepare for that.
35:12Can you give an example?
35:13I'm referring, for example, to the issue of blackmail.
35:17We have the last few years
35:18I've seen a lot in the cyber sector
35:20and have focused very strongly on cyber
35:22and on the dangers,
35:23the internet
35:24or that which the applications on the internet bring with them.
35:27Today we need to become stronger again
35:29Prepare for physical risks.
35:30That means,
35:31I am becoming the victim of general blackmail.
35:34or also personal safety.
35:37That's something,
35:37which I would also like to address,
35:39because very often managers,
35:41but employees
35:42don't deal with it
35:44when they work in specific fields.
35:46What does this mean for their personal exposure?
35:49And what does that mean?
35:50for their personal reputation?
35:52And that's something one has to do today
35:53also take completely different precautions,
35:55as was perhaps the case ten years ago.
35:57If I understand correctly,
36:00then you helped to
36:01to investigate an extortion attempt,
36:03where someone provides baby food
36:04poisoned by the manufacturer HIP.
36:07How did that happen?
36:08Can you tell us about it?
36:10No, I can't.
36:11because I know
36:12It is repeatedly reported in the media.
36:14But one thing is very important in my new job
36:16And that is discretion.
36:18And that's why I can speak about the specific case.
36:20not speak to you.
36:21Can you tell us something about it?
36:22How often do such blackmail attempts occur?
36:24That would be a phenomenon,
36:26that I meant before,
36:27that is coming soon.
36:28You can already see,
36:29when looking at companies in Europe,
36:31that the issue of product extortion is particularly relevant,
36:34that it hasn't been in such focus in recent years,
36:37but is now being seen more frequently again.
36:39That means,
36:39You have to prepare for that very specifically.
36:42in which individual aspects
36:44Our greatest vulnerabilities lie here
36:46and then consider early on,
36:48What could we do?
36:49to protect ourselves preventively.
36:51But likewise,
36:52if that happens,
36:53How do we react then?
36:54Who are the people involved?
36:56Who makes the decisions?
36:57And how do we manage to last for days,
36:59perhaps even for weeks
37:01To be able to act or to be ready for deployment?
37:03That's something I often miss.
37:05That means I need to build up capacity,
37:07in order to be able to deal with crises.
37:09And these are things,
37:11which we must prepare for massively today.
37:14Currently, nails and needles are circulating.
37:16Manipulated sweets made headlines at Halloween.
37:19What does the fact tell you?
37:22that cases in Austria
37:23as well as Germany?
37:25It is a case,
37:26which is currently being investigated.
37:28I have now on the way here
37:29belongs here in the studio,
37:31on the radio,
37:32that the Federal Criminal Police Office says,
37:35that the networks are particularly important here
37:36will be examined at the European level.
37:38That means,
37:39That would be totally unprofessional of me.
37:40if I were to make any speculations about it here.
37:43Have you in your career
37:45ever thought about it
37:47what kind of people are these?
37:48Do they endanger babies and children?
37:52Of course, one thinks about such things.
37:54And that's something that occupies one's thoughts.
37:56During my time, I also...
37:57I used to work as an investigator as well
37:59worked in the area of violence or murder
38:02and I've had several cases,
38:04where children were victims of serious acts of violence,
38:06even murders.
38:08And it is something,
38:09which is seen in a completely different way,
38:10like perhaps the other crimes,
38:12where one is involved in the investigation.
38:15And that naturally occupies one's thoughts.
38:17But as mentioned at the beginning,
38:18You need in this position
38:20or in this role
38:21a certain basic resilience,
38:23a psychological
38:24because otherwise you would lose your life
38:26perhaps in many aspects
38:28then they can no longer live like that.
38:30how we actually live our free lives
38:31want to live in a democracy.
38:34Were you able to identify any patterns?
38:36What kind of people are they?
38:38What motivates such people?
38:41No, I didn't recognize any patterns.
38:44although there are of course always things,
38:45that appear.
38:46Let me give you an example.
38:48If children early in their lives
38:51become victims of violence,
38:53then you can see
38:54that such situations occur
38:55can have a massive impact on life.
38:57And now I'm back to basic resilience,
38:59that a person brings
39:00or not, in a certain way.
39:02Then that can be quite something.
39:04to accompany you throughout your life.
39:05And that is why it is necessary here,
39:07that we do much more education
39:09that we talk about such topics much more.
39:11Let me give you another example.
39:13We are discussing this now, thank God.
39:14The topic is currently being discussed again.
39:16Violence against women, hatred of women, also online.
39:18That's something that worries me.
39:20and something I see time and time again.
39:22And I do believe so,
39:23that it is necessary,
39:24that we men also engage in this discussion
39:27and that we men,
39:29which we recognize
39:30that they are a problem in this discussion,
39:32also address clearly and decisively,
39:34that they should refrain from doing these things,
39:36because that's ultimately
39:37which affects society.
39:39And thank God we live in a time,
39:41where no distinction is made anymore,
39:42which gender one is.
39:43And that must also be said by us.
39:45They must be clearly named and demanded.
39:47And how are we doing with optimism?
39:49I always talk about it,
39:50that right now
39:51It is time for optimism
39:53and that we should all live optimistically.
39:55But that is only necessary if...
39:57even though we live in a time
39:58or live in a society
40:00where possible,
40:01to address things
40:02and where one can also stand up for others
40:05and can also express opinions to others.
40:07And that is necessary,
40:08to build preventive resilience.
40:11Speaking of toxic masculinity.
40:14We'll also talk a little bit about Trump.
40:16namely his war with Iran.
40:17There we saw
40:18like a single war in a region
40:20global trade
40:22can make you sweat
40:24by blocking a single sea route.
40:26They addressed terrorism,
40:28including global conflicts.
40:29How fragile is our economic system?
40:32I don't want to say fragile,
40:34But we have seen in recent years,
40:36that we are talking about individual events
40:39and are dependent on the resulting effects
40:42and that one should therefore,
40:43as mentioned earlier,
40:45It should be diversified.
40:47and should consider
40:48how to do it
40:49that one does not only speak of one event
40:52or from a restricted supply chain route
40:56then comes to a standstill
40:57or that a company
40:58is no longer capable of acting.
41:00And that is precisely something,
41:02what in Austria through our idealism
41:05or through our mindset,
41:06our mentality in general
41:08very much in the foreground.
41:09I think that's definitely the positive aspect.
41:11in this country,
41:12that the people who live here,
41:14are generally willing to
41:16constantly worrying about it,
41:18maybe sometimes very much like to wear a satchel
41:20and somehow cast things in a negative light
41:22but when it comes down to it,
41:23then stand together
41:24and create things together.
41:25And that is especially true in such crises,
41:27which all the geopolitical situations
41:30to entail, is necessary.
41:32And that's why I'm absolutely happy,
41:34to be allowed to live personally in Austria
41:36with my family
41:37and to have gained a foothold here as well,
41:40because ultimately it is a country,
41:42where such things are approached differently
41:44as perhaps in other parts of Europe
41:46or all over the world.
41:47Let's say I need something for my business
41:51Oil or natural gas,
41:53then I need someone
41:54who can supply that to me.
41:55Is diversification a...
41:57how you address them,
41:58Is it even possible in all areas?
42:00It may be possible in all areas,
42:02but possible to a limited extent
42:03as in other areas.
42:05I completely agree with you.
42:06But I think
42:07especially regarding the energy issue
42:08That's one,
42:09which has been well discussed for many years
42:11also with other energy sources
42:14or perhaps new energies,
42:16who are on the market today.
42:18And here one has to
42:19Position them in exactly that direction.
42:21But what I mean by that is,
42:22when I read,
42:23and I did that a few days ago
42:24in a famous
42:27I read a monthly magazine in Austria.
42:29that trade is currently more
42:31focuses on e-mobility in the truck sector,
42:35then that's something,
42:36which, from my perspective, gives me a sense of...
42:38Yes, one reacts to certain situations.
42:41and one tries to
42:42to reduce the dependency to some extent.
42:44And that's the positive aspect.
42:45And we need to discuss that then, too.
42:48We talked about the USA,
42:50about Russia
42:51but about the elephant in the room,
42:53as far as the economy is concerned,
42:54We didn't speak,
42:54China.
42:55We are not from China,
42:58as far as raw materials are concerned,
42:59dependent,
43:00I would exclude the rare earth elements for now.
43:02but also very strongly from trade.
43:04Many of our goods,
43:05many of our goods
43:06are produced in China.
43:07The ships,
43:08who come to Europe by the thousands,
43:10come from China
43:11with many goods on board.
43:15And how strong is China?
43:18Or rather, how dangerous is China?
43:20from the security issue
43:21for companies in Europe?
43:23A big topic.
43:24I think,
43:24You read about it in the media every day.
43:26I only heard about it this morning,
43:30that in Germany right now again
43:31it is being discussed
43:33how to deal with Chinese manufacturers,
43:36especially in the field of energy technology and so on,
43:38Photovoltaics.
43:39I think,
43:40This question is absolutely urgent.
43:42And this is a question we need to ask ourselves in general.
43:45But this also applies to many other industries.
43:47and facets,
43:48which you mentioned.
43:49And it's exactly the same here.
43:52You shouldn't look,
43:53that one is so dependent on one area,
43:55that in the other areas
43:57It may no longer be relevant.
44:00And that is necessary.
44:01This can also be seen, for example,
44:02in the automotive industry,
44:04especially in Europe,
44:05How quickly something like that can happen.
44:07And here it is necessary,
44:08to constantly be up-to-date.
44:10But now I've come to an important point,
44:11which I would like to bring with me.
44:12It is simply necessary,
44:14if we have pioneers in these areas
44:16in the economy,
44:17in Europe,
44:18that we have this know-how
44:19and the pioneers as a whole
44:23then protect them too.
44:24Topic: Espionage and related topics.
44:26If you have the know-how,
44:28that one produces
44:28and that one has
44:29always freely available,
44:31then it is also
44:32no surprise,
44:34that ultimately someone,
44:35which is heavily subsidized
44:36and there is a lot of money
44:37Topic: China
44:38then ultimately also
44:39gets into a situation
44:41Technology at a more affordable price
44:42or comparable technology
44:44to offer at a more affordable price.
44:46And I think
44:46We see the problem here
44:47And we need to address that as well.
44:50in the area of preventive measures.
44:52They advise companies.
44:53How to protect businesses,
44:55not to become a victim
44:56of Chinese espionage etc.?
45:00By looking on the one hand,
45:02which components are used
45:03a company in the technical field,
45:05by looking at the same time,
45:07that the know-how
45:07or the information,
45:08which are laid out there
45:09the patents,
45:10the products,
45:11which are being developed
45:12but the employees
45:13and employees
45:14as a whole protects
45:15or prepare them for it
45:17for example, if they
45:18fly to a country
45:19into a foreign land,
45:20that one knows,
45:21how should one
45:22on such a journey,
45:23on a work trip
45:24also prepare
45:25What should one do there?
45:26What one shouldn't do
45:27and when certain situations arise
45:29happened
45:29What is the best way to react in that situation?
45:31That means,
45:32There is a wide spectrum
45:33measures are in place
45:34that one should move to the forefront
45:37and what one should occupy oneself with
45:39And that is not one measure.
45:41Very often, these are processes.
45:42in companies
45:43the very, very simple
45:44to be changed
45:45and which also don't cost any money,
45:47But that naturally leads to...
45:48even up to so-called
45:51Inside offender protection programs
45:51or insider risk programs,
45:53how they are today
45:54newly named in a modern way,
45:56which are then implemented
45:57where access concepts are concerned,
46:00where it's about information protection
46:02as a whole,
46:03where it is also about,
46:04the employees
46:05and to protect employees
46:06and also enable them to
46:07to be able to recognize,
46:09if they have a problem
46:10in the area of data leakage,
46:11for example, if
46:12state actors
46:13approach them
46:14to spy,
46:15to gather information.
46:17So there are very,
46:17Many measures are necessary
46:19with whom one can
46:20must occupy oneself.
46:21Assumed,
46:22I would be an inventor
46:23or a CEO
46:24from a European company
46:26and I have a briefcase
46:28full of trade secrets
46:30with me
46:30and I have to go to China,
46:32because I was there with a
46:33Producers need to speak.
46:35What do I need to be prepared for?
46:37which could drive me again
46:38on my trip to China?
46:40A very fictional example.
46:42Of course, you have to
46:43prepare well in advance
46:45What scenarios could arise?
46:48How can you store your suitcase,
46:49which you take with you, protect it?
46:51And if something happens,
46:53How do you react to that?
46:54That means,
46:55There is a lot here
46:56Preparatory work is necessary.
46:57I already said this earlier
46:57the word awareness is called
46:59that I personally
47:00I don't like it so much
47:01but it's simply very apt,
47:03because it's simply about that,
47:04that one deals with situations,
47:06which can occur,
47:06occupied and considering
47:08if that happens,
47:09What can I do?
47:10Variant A, Variant B,
47:11Variant C
47:12and then I'm so resilient
47:14in preparation,
47:15that I say,
47:16when the situation arises,
47:17Which option should I choose now?
47:19That means,
47:19I can now tell you here
47:21do not provide a checklist
47:22and say,
47:22Do A to D
47:23and then you are safe
47:24during your business trip to China,
47:27which you mentioned.
47:29But ultimately
47:30is it simple
47:30the preparation in general,
47:32but there are certainly
47:33completely different methods
47:35and measures
47:36to your goods
47:37then to present there
47:39without you perhaps
47:39in the suitcase to China
47:40to have to transport.
47:41I will take note of the suggestion
47:43already take with you
47:43and take to heart
47:45But let's get specific.
47:47So what can I expect?
47:50like me,
47:50if I am interesting
47:51for an intelligence service
47:52a foreigner
47:54how I was wiretapped,
47:55being spied on,
47:56how I am being scrutinized
47:57so that my data
47:58but get lost?
47:59You already mentioned it,
48:01It's not just about
48:02to mitigate the technical risks,
48:04that arise
48:05when you use your mobile phone,
48:06when you check your emails,
48:07when you send your messages,
48:08Your general communication
48:11have it on your mobile phone.
48:13A mobile phone
48:14is for us today
48:15a total added value
48:16and without that we could
48:17We cannot do our work today.
48:18let alone likely
48:19living in form,
48:20how we do it.
48:21But it also offers
48:22many risks
48:24because mobile phones
48:25also quick and easy
48:26are vulnerable
48:27especially for state actors.
48:29That means,
48:29You should consider
48:30What am I communicating there?
48:31How do I communicate?
48:32and which applications
48:34I could use it
48:35to at least some extent
48:36to be safer.
48:37That's the first thing.
48:38The same applies, of course.
48:39also for a computer,
48:40that you take with you
48:41on the business trip
48:42or the one you take with you every day.
48:44Should you consider,
48:45How can I
48:46to make it so safe
48:48so that ultimately
48:48even if he gets away,
48:50I want the greatest possible security
48:52display.
48:52The second thing is,
48:53Your personal risk,
48:55when you are traveling,
48:56Could you be contacted?
48:58with corresponding
48:59Legends or deck patterns,
49:00if you want to put it that way,
49:02where you might not even
49:02notice at first glance,
49:05that your counterpart
49:06someone is
49:07who wishes you harm
49:08but that is perhaps
49:09a chance acquaintance,
49:10which you at the airport
49:11get to know,
49:11who is very likeable
49:13and ultimately
49:14but I only want one thing from you,
49:15namely the information
49:16or to grab your suitcase.
49:18But ultimately
49:19one has to
49:20on such things
49:20Prepare
49:21and one must know,
49:22which scenarios
49:23These things can happen.
49:25And especially in the area
49:26state actors
49:27is the potpourri of measures
49:29enormous
49:30and there are thousands of ways,
49:32to access the information
49:33to get
49:34to attack them,
49:35to compromise them.
49:37Honeytrap topic
49:38and everything
49:39what is in focus today,
49:40That might be it,
49:41which is perhaps similar
49:42to James Bond
49:43like back then
49:44But there are thousands.
49:45Possibilities
49:46and there are thousands of risks.
49:48You must
49:49be aware of the risks
49:50Do everything possible in advance,
49:51that the risks
49:52as little as possible
49:53can enter
49:54and know
49:55what to do,
49:55when they enter.
49:56We have in the course
49:58of the Ukraine war,
50:00that it also
50:01Attack plans,
50:03Murder plots
50:03against company bosses,
50:05for example
50:05from arms companies.
50:09How threatening
50:10is the situation,
50:11the location?
50:11Is there really?
50:12many such measures
50:14which will be set?
50:16So many are familiar to me
50:18not known,
50:18but they speak
50:19an important topic.
50:21The topic
50:21safety
50:22the executives
50:23or top executives
50:24at the C-level
50:25is one
50:26which is becoming increasingly common
50:27and we must
50:28discuss these risks.
50:30I have a perception there
50:31and about them I
50:32the last few days
50:33very intense
50:33Spoke with companies.
50:36It is very often
50:37false modesty
50:38as a top executive
50:39to say,
50:40my safety
50:40is not that important,
50:41the employees
50:42and employees
50:43are these important
50:44The company's assets
50:45and the company
50:45and his know-how
50:47as a whole
50:48are very important.
50:49Yes,
50:50That's certainly possible.
50:50outlook
50:51a manager
50:52comprehend,
50:53never the importance
50:54in oneself
50:54to search
50:55but to say,
50:56The team is important.
50:57But ultimately
50:58is a company
50:59also massively vulnerable,
51:01if from one second
51:02on the other
51:02the top executive,
51:04those responsible for overall control
51:05the company
51:06is responsible
51:06is gone.
51:07And so one must
51:08Seeing things
51:09and then clear
51:09look
51:11as part of a
51:11Threat and
51:12Hazard analysis,
51:13I have a topic,
51:15an exposure theme,
51:17that could affect me?
51:18If yes,
51:19then I have to
51:20Consider protective measures
51:21and that doesn't mean,
51:22as in the cases,
51:23the ones you mentioned,
51:24that then
51:26Personal protection needs
51:2624 hours a day,
51:27that is something,
51:28that nobody wants,
51:29I think,
51:30but very often
51:31are much smaller
51:32Measures,
51:32which one can both
51:33in professional
51:34as well as in private
51:35Everyday
51:36can meet
51:37and then a little way
51:38is safer
51:38in his daily
51:41Everyday.
51:42We see that
51:42in large
51:43Tech CEOs
51:44or
51:45industrial magnates,
51:45that they partially
51:46with a lot
51:47Personal protection
51:47in public
51:48appear.
51:49There are always some things like this.
51:50the images of
51:50Elon Musk,
51:51who somehow in
51:52new York
51:52going out to eat
51:53and then all around
51:54many
51:54Security personnel
51:55around him.
51:57Is this reality?
51:59can
51:59influential,
52:00rich people,
52:02powerful people
52:02not today
52:03without personal protection
52:04life?
52:05It is likely
52:06a mixture
52:07from the whole.
52:08On the one hand,
52:08I mentioned earlier,
52:09that is what he wishes for
52:10probably nobody
52:11So I would imagine it
52:12do not wish
52:12and I think
52:14Neither do they.
52:15because it already is
52:15a turning point in life,
52:17if you are permanently
52:17by security personnel
52:19is surrounded
52:19because that's how you have to see it,
52:21They get it every day.
52:22with what I actually do,
52:23who I talk to,
52:24with whom I communicate,
52:25like my private everyday life
52:27looks like.
52:28I believe,
52:28Nobody wants that.
52:29but there are certainly also
52:30People,
52:31who see it as a status symbol
52:33see and ultimately
52:34then also their personal
52:36place greater importance on it,
52:38when they are accompanied by bodyguards
52:39is surrounded.
52:40But to answer your question,
52:41I think so,
52:42because especially in the tech industries
52:44in recent years
52:45so much has resulted
52:46and the sums of values,
52:49which represent the companies
52:51are so big today
52:52that it is likely
52:52necessary
52:53to protect these people as well.
52:56How much of that do you carry
52:58that
52:59that the inequality
53:00also in the West
53:02our world is increasing
53:04that inequality is increasing,
53:05that there are more and more
53:07There are poor people,
53:09who have life
53:10can barely afford
53:11and very few super-rich people
53:13who have exorbitantly more
53:15than all the others.
53:16Is inequality,
53:18is this civil disobedience,
53:19which could develop from that
53:21a problem,
53:22that you need to address?
53:24So I don't think so,
53:26that inequality in this context,
53:27where I work today,
53:28plays a role
53:29But to your question,
53:31how protests,
53:32If, for example, one were to...
53:33looks towards France
53:34also resulted
53:35what the cause is there,
53:36is one thing,
53:37but how does something like that happen?
53:38also has an effect
53:39That's the other one.
53:40And I think
53:42looking towards Austria
53:43and the European Union
53:45as a whole,
53:46that it is never currently
53:48is justifiable somewhere
53:51To cause scenes
53:53as for example
53:53on the weekend
53:54in Germany,
53:55with broken window panes,
53:58with mass thefts,
53:59with injured policewomen
54:01and police officers on the street
54:02or as in France
54:03even resorting to looting,
54:05where ultimately
54:05then always entrepreneurs
54:06stand behind it
54:07who might perish
54:08because they made this cut
54:09cannot cope
54:11in financial
54:12or in economic terms.
54:13I think,
54:14That is never justified.
54:15The protest is one thing,
54:17but the excessive
54:18or the use,
54:19the illegitimate use
54:21a protest,
54:22to cause damage,
54:24to use violence,
54:26can never be legitimized.
54:29Upgrade security,
54:30All of this comes at a high price.
54:32not just in monetary terms.
54:33What do you say to people?
54:35they say,
54:36that we for our new,
54:38huge need for security
54:39many freedoms,
54:40social achievements,
54:42The welfare state is convenient
54:43To gamble coldly?
54:44Yes, security is ultimately...
54:46always something
54:47which comes at the expense of freedom.
54:48That's just how it is.
54:49And if things develop
54:51in society,
54:52as we saw it
54:53the last few years,
54:54then you just have to
54:56to give up a piece of freedom.
54:57But I believe
54:57at the end of the day
54:58It is manageable,
55:01because I am now again
55:02in technical measures.
55:04We discussed earlier,
55:07that the ones I had back then
55:08also requested messenger monitoring
55:10something is
55:11where many people say,
55:12This is a turning point.
55:13transparent man,
55:14Surveillance state and so on.
55:17Those people,
55:18who abide by the laws,
55:20do we even have here?
55:20Nothing to fear.
55:21And this is where it goes
55:22in this sub-area
55:23only to extremists
55:24and extremists
55:25for very few people
55:27one danger
55:27for our democracy,
55:29for our society,
55:30Ultimately, perhaps
55:31for myself,
55:32maybe for my children
55:33could represent
55:33in public.
55:34And here it's just like that,
55:37that such measures
55:37then with individuals
55:38to lead to
55:39to say,
55:40my freedom
55:40is limited.
55:41I think,
55:42that freedom
55:43There's always something
55:44that must be given
55:45to some extent
55:45To obtain security,
55:46especially in times like these.
55:48But that it still
55:49More importantly,
55:50our general freedom
55:51to obtain
55:51and to be able to live safely.
55:53And we can do that
55:54in this country.
55:56If I understand the criticism
55:57on messenger surveillance
55:59or also at
55:59Monitoring systems
56:00I understand correctly.
56:01then she goes in that direction,
56:02that she says,
56:03Yes, under democratic principles
56:04Requirements
56:05in a state governed by the rule of law
56:06May everything go well.
56:08But as soon as the leaf
56:09turns
56:10as soon as someone comes to power
56:10who comes, perhaps
56:11an autocratic
56:13would prefer a form of government
56:15can the leaf
56:16also against the citizens
56:17turn around.
56:18What do you say to them?
56:19The answer to this question
56:21I can and would like to tell you
56:22no longer exist today
56:23because I wasn't there
56:24I am more involved
56:25because it also means me
56:25nothing more to do.
56:26You must do this
56:27the people in the management
56:29State security and
56:29Intelligence service
56:30or in the Ministry of the Interior
56:31questions.
56:32Last question.
56:33How do we prepare ourselves
56:34as a society
56:35More resilient?
56:36What are the most important
56:37Points, would you
56:37To summarize?
56:39I already said this earlier
56:39mentioned, each of us
56:41and each of us
56:42can contribute a partial amount
56:43afford and I think
56:45even if things,
56:46which we discussed today
56:47have, basically
56:48are very negative
56:49that threat situations
56:50develop as they
56:51are currently relevant
56:52for society,
56:53for the economy,
56:54that it is still time
56:55is optimism
56:56to manage,
56:57because ultimately
56:58Optimism is something,
56:59what we are currently
57:00during polarization
57:01and extremism
57:02in the right direction
57:03can drive.
57:03What we can do,
57:04It is worth looking at
57:05and not look away.
57:07That means if we
57:07see a case
57:08where people develop
57:10where they
57:11radicalize
57:12to state that clearly
57:13and to address
57:15to be sensitive,
57:16just the eyes
57:17to keep open,
57:18for togetherness
57:19to stand
57:20for the other,
57:21the other one to be there
57:23a certain degree
57:24helpfulness
57:25to bring
57:26that's that,
57:27what we in the current
57:28Situations can arise
57:29and should give
57:30and I think
57:31Any one of us can do that
57:32also make its contribution.
57:33Omar Hadjavi-Pirchner,
57:35Thank you
57:35for the conversation.
57:36Thank you.
57:38And what do you think?
57:39What are the biggest dangers?
57:40for Europe?
57:41Write us your thoughts
57:42and opinions
57:43into the comment sections.
57:45Please subscribe!
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57:49To be seen and heard.
57:51I am Wilhelm Scholz,
57:52this recording
57:52was led by Tobias Holob.
57:54Thank you for listening.
57:55and watching.
57:56Bye and see you next time.
57:58See you next time.