- 11 hours ago
John and Anita discuss Anita’s experience leaving the United Pentecostal Church after growing up as a third-generation member. Anita reflects on a sheltered upbringing, expectations surrounding hair and clothing, and the freedom to make everyday choices without feeling that each decision puts her faith in question. Together, they explore what “going wild” can mean for people raised with strict religious rules.
The conversation also examines Anita’s accounts of loneliness, strained relationships, and the challenges of finding a welcoming church community for herself and her daughter. John shares experiences from his own former religious group as they discuss grace, salvation, pastoral authority, and reading Scripture in context. Anita emphasizes valuing people beyond outward appearances, offering practical support, and making newcomers feel included.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
03:48 Growing Up Sheltered and “Going Wild”
13:02 Relearning Ordinary Choices After Leaving
19:14 Rejection, Shunning, and Losing Your Community
25:30 Loneliness and the Need to Feel Valued
30:05 What Happens When Someone Leaves a High-Control Group
35:04 Fear and Anxiety After Leaving
38:38 Salvation, Grace, and Reexamining UPC Beliefs
44:00 Fear, Pastoral Authority, and “Touch Not God’s Anointed”
48:05 Finding Your Voice and Rebuilding Community
53:00 Loving People Instead of Judging Them
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The conversation also examines Anita’s accounts of loneliness, strained relationships, and the challenges of finding a welcoming church community for herself and her daughter. John shares experiences from his own former religious group as they discuss grace, salvation, pastoral authority, and reading Scripture in context. Anita emphasizes valuing people beyond outward appearances, offering practical support, and making newcomers feel included.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
03:48 Growing Up Sheltered and “Going Wild”
13:02 Relearning Ordinary Choices After Leaving
19:14 Rejection, Shunning, and Losing Your Community
25:30 Loneliness and the Need to Feel Valued
30:05 What Happens When Someone Leaves a High-Control Group
35:04 Fear and Anxiety After Leaving
38:38 Salvation, Grace, and Reexamining UPC Beliefs
44:00 Fear, Pastoral Authority, and “Touch Not God’s Anointed”
48:05 Finding Your Voice and Rebuilding Community
53:00 Loving People Instead of Judging Them
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Anita Wade, former United
00:45Pentecostal Church member.
00:47Anita, it's good to have you back.
00:49I don't know if you paid attention to the last podcast we did, but it got a lot of traction.
00:54There were a lot of people really interested to hear your story, and during the course
00:59of talking to you, I got so excited about the things that you know that were puzzle pieces
01:05that would fit into my research, both from a person who is in the United Pentecostal Church
01:10and their emotional standpoint to just simply some of the names that you rattle off because
01:14of who you are and who you know.
01:16So, I think I may have talked more than you, and I wanted to have you back so that you
01:21could talk too.
01:22So, thank you for coming back.
01:24For those who don't remember Anita, maybe you could tell everybody a little bit about
01:29yourself again.
01:30Well, it's good to be back.
01:31I am a third-generation UPC member.
01:36I was born into it, raised at a Bible school in Minnesota, and three years ago, because
01:41of a tragedy, a traumatic incident, we left, and it's been quite a rollercoaster of three
01:47years.
01:48Yes, it has.
01:49Based off of what you described in the last podcast, and I recommend anybody who's interested
01:54to go back and hear that, it's a rollercoaster for many people whenever they go through the
01:59things that you have, the shunning, the emotional anguish, et cetera, and it's traumatic.
02:04There are people who escape, and they're buried in trauma.
02:07I was whenever I left my group, and every Friday I share stories of people who have gone through
02:12similar traumas, but one of the things that you said that I really want to talk about is
02:17something that other people face, and there's different ways to interpret it, and this may
02:23be, I may hijack your podcast again, so I'm warning you, there may be a third one.
02:28This may be one of the most important topics that I've covered on one of the podcasts on
02:33Fridays.
02:34There is this thing that happens whenever you leave a high-control group that is very much
02:40like if you were a kid in a sheltered home where your parents are sheltering you, and you
02:45are basically, you're this coiled spring that suddenly, whenever that spring gets released,
02:51you bounce, and in the support groups, what we called it was going wild, but the interesting
02:57part about this is, depending on where you are in your journey, and depending on what
03:03you believed in your background, going wild to one person may be Tuesday for another person.
03:09It may just be a normal day, and so there's different ways to interpret what going wild means.
03:14I wanted to first understand what you were talking about whenever you got into that subject,
03:20but it could explode into a series of podcasts because, in fact, I have thought about doing
03:25this with my wife.
03:26I'll warn everybody ahead of time.
03:28I've thought about having a Going Wild with Jen podcast where we just simply go do something
03:34that was forbidden in the cult and film it and share it with the world so they can see
03:38that God's not going to strike you down with lightning because you visited, I don't know,
03:43a movie theater or something like this.
03:45Anyway, let's talk about Going Wild.
03:47Well, when I moved to Fort Smith and went into the Christian school that, just for some background,
03:54I was raised in the Twin Cities.
03:55I went through the 10th grade in a suburb of the Twin Cities, and then my parents moved to
04:00Fort Smith, Arkansas, where I was put into an NCA Christian school.
04:04And one of the things that I noticed when I was there was that a lot of the kids that
04:09had been born and raised in that church had been raised in that school, and they were told
04:13you, you can't smoke, you can't do drugs, you can't drink, you can't cut your hair, you
04:17can't have sex, blah, blah, blah.
04:18And a lot of times what would happen is because of the mystery, and they had never seen it
04:23and didn't know what that was, and it was such a taboo, and it was talked about so much,
04:27they had to go try it.
04:28And so, in fact, the class ahead of mine, I was a junior when this happened, a lot of
04:35those kids got bounced, they got kicked out.
04:37And then some of them came back, and so my class was a double number of six because of
04:43that.
04:44But yeah, they got caught skinny dipping and just all kinds of crazy stuff.
04:49I didn't go that route because I had been in a public school where we had kids that smoked,
04:54and I had seen girls doing drugs in the bathroom, and I had seen girls that had gotten pregnant
04:58and had to go home, and just, I didn't want that.
05:00I didn't want, I wanted my life to be, you know, UPC, Pentecostal, whatever.
05:05I really wanted it to go a certain way.
05:07I'm very particular about that.
05:09I'm very future-minded.
05:10So I didn't do that quite as much.
05:13Where I, going wild for me was when I moved to Little Rock and went to college, I started
05:18hanging out with some people that I met at my job that also hung out at a local bar,
05:22and it was called Slick Willies.
05:24It became popular when Clinton was running for president.
05:28And we would, you know, stay there, the guys that ran it were my friends, and so we'd stay
05:32there when it closed, and sometimes they'd try and, you know, slip alcohol in my drinks.
05:36And I was 19, 20.
05:37I was getting in without an ID because of who I knew.
05:41And I always caught them, and, you know, I wouldn't drink it or whatever.
05:44And so one night they decided we were going to go over to somebody's house and watch the
05:48Rocky Horror Picture Show.
05:50And what I didn't know is they were videotaping my reaction because they thought it was fun
05:55to, you know, introduce to me certain things that I had never been around.
06:01I was so sheltered.
06:02And then they would videotape it and laugh about it.
06:04And so even to this day, we laugh when we get together about, you know, all the craziness
06:09that we did concerning that for me.
06:11Yeah, I never had anybody film it, but I grew up in a world where everybody in the religion
06:18we came out of was sheltered.
06:19It was a very high-control group.
06:21And the children who could escape that sheltering often did it.
06:27And I can remember months at a time I would spend the weekends at a friend's house, and
06:32they would be doing things.
06:33I just was a good little cult boy.
06:36I didn't engage in many of the things that were we considered wrong in the cult, any of
06:39them, actually, except for movies and television, because my family had this weird scenario where
06:46my family watched it, and it was okay for us because we knew the central figure, the prophet,
06:51and we knew that he watched television and movies while he condemned it.
06:54So I had this false understanding.
06:56But for the most part, I did not do this.
06:59However, in the support groups, there are children who one lady told her story, and it
07:05was so heartbreaking to think of it.
07:07In fact, two ladies shared the same type of story.
07:10They weren't even allowed to read books that were not the Bible as they were being raised
07:15as a child.
07:16And one lady used to take books home, and she would, with a flashlight in her closet at
07:20night, sneak into the closet, and she's reading a book with a flashlight and got caught.
07:26And you can imagine what happened with the parents.
07:28In that case, it wasn't as destructive as the other lady who shared her story.
07:33And they actually brought the children into a hall, brought the entire community together,
07:39and physically punished them.
07:41I won't go into details.
07:42It was horrific what they did to the children.
07:44With everybody watching and with their rear end exposed.
07:48So they're being shamed.
07:50They're being punished.
07:51They're actually being tortured.
07:53It's horrific what they were doing.
07:55That's the type of control that was in the movement that I escaped.
07:59What was odd to me, I thought, this can't exist in other religions.
08:04Nobody is going to be that horrific.
08:06And what I've learned is, it depends on how far the church goes outside of the norm as
08:12to whether the church does it.
08:13I've had people from the UPC share stories I just can't believe happened in the UPC.
08:17And it really comes down to this.
08:19It all comes down to accountability.
08:21If you're in a church where the members are holding the leaders responsible, it doesn't
08:26spin as far out of control as those that the leaders are just unbounded.
08:31I was encouraged to read.
08:33My dad was an avid reader.
08:35That's part of the reason that when I went into television without a college degree, I
08:40was always good at English.
08:40I was always good at creative writing.
08:42I could write a script in no time.
08:44And I would get compliments on how good it was.
08:46I had a very good imagination because without a TV, you had to entertain yourself.
08:52Thankfully, my parents were so busy.
08:54My mom was running a business and my dad was working.
08:57And he had like an hour drive to and from.
09:00So when he came home, he ate dinner and pretty much went to bed.
09:02He was also a polio survivor.
09:04So I knew when he was getting out of his chair because I could hear his braces and his
09:07crutches coming down the hall.
09:09So a lot of times, if it was something I thought I would get in trouble, I would just stuff
09:11it
09:12under my mattress.
09:12But they knew I was reading.
09:14And to them, that was very much encouraged.
09:17So I didn't really have that.
09:19The TV and the movies was a little more strict.
09:21But then when we would, like I said, last time we'd go on vacation with my grandparents
09:24or I'd sneak to the neighbors, we would watch TV that way.
09:27But the movie theater, I didn't go.
09:29I don't think, I think I was 19 the first time I went.
09:31The first movie I saw, which was stupid, was The Abyss with Sigourney Weaver, which scared
09:36the tar out of me.
09:38And so, I mean, I still, like to this day, if there's a bum or a drunk person on the
09:44other
09:44side of the street, I'm crossing the street to get away from them.
09:47I don't like panhandlers.
09:48I don't like being in a situation where I feel unsafe.
09:51My husband, he's ready to take them on, you know, take them out.
09:53But not me.
09:55I just, I want away from it.
09:56And they tried to help me, my friends, when they were, you know, introducing me to stuff.
10:02They tried to help me get used to it.
10:03And I did have a friend that he would get really drunk and crash his motorcycle and then come
10:07to my house and sleep on the floor or the couch or whatever.
10:11If my parents had known that, they had thrown a fit.
10:13It was funny.
10:13My sister was there one day when he, when it happened.
10:16She came over and said, there's a guy banging on the door.
10:18There's a guy banging on the door.
10:18I said, it's just Mikey, let him in.
10:19And she's like, what?
10:20And I was like, just, it's Mikey, let him in.
10:23So, you know, I did, I did get to experience more of that.
10:27I think once I was in college and got married and, you know, started working a secular job
10:32in television.
10:33But yeah, I can, yeah, I saw so many kids that would just go wild, just absolutely go
10:38wild, get pregnant, get, get, do drugs, you know, and stuff like that.
10:42And some of them come back and they're, and they're cleaned up and they're good.
10:45And some of it just ruined their lives.
10:47I don't know if I've mentioned this on the podcast and I'm in one of those weird moods where
10:51I'm probably going to just open up to you.
10:53I, when I ran my business, I was having a bad day.
10:57My wife was calling me just, we were both having a really bad day.
11:01And I was walking into a restaurant to meet my contractors who were working as consultants.
11:06And this panhandler was sitting there with no shirt on and he grabbed my pants leg and
11:10almost tripped me as I'm walking in the building, holding my laptop.
11:13And I'm like, no man, don't do this.
11:15Well, I walked in, I ate, well, she called me again and it was an emergency.
11:19I had to leave.
11:20So left my, my feet, my meal, left the consultants and I'm walking out.
11:25He does it again on the way out.
11:27And I looked at him, I said, what are you doing?
11:29And he says, look, man, I'm just trying to get down to the interstate.
11:32I'm trying to get home to my family.
11:34I have a wife and kids and I have no money.
11:37And I was beside myself from the emergency.
11:39I didn't think about it.
11:40And I said, sure, hop in the truck, which was the stupidest thing I ever have done.
11:45Right.
11:46So he gets in the truck and as I'm opening the door, I suddenly came to my senses and thought,
11:51that's the stupidest thing I've ever done.
11:53And I get in, I sit down and I'm like, how do I handle this?
11:56What do I do?
11:58Well, I carry a 45.
11:59So I just pulled my 45 out and I set it on my left leg.
12:03And he looked at me and he said, mister, you've got a gun?
12:05And I said, yeah.
12:06And he said, you're not going to kill me, are you?
12:08And I said, I sure hope not, buddy.
12:11And he said, let me out.
12:12Let me out.
12:12I lied.
12:13I just live across the street.
12:14And so I let him out and he went to his home and nothing came of it.
12:21But that story, it's a funny story.
12:23But whenever you think about how people experience life in general, you're going to see panhandlers
12:30if you go into the city.
12:31You're going to see people going to the movies if you've been a sheltered life.
12:34They're going into the sin house, we would call it.
12:36But I learned after leaving that there were a lot of things that I thought were sins that
12:43you really can't find in the Bible.
12:45Movies, for example, can't even be in the Bible.
12:47They weren't even invented back then, right?
12:49So I started looking at the different things that they called sin.
12:53And I realized that we had a whole lot of sins that they just told us were sins for whatever
12:57reason was their opinion.
12:59And I wanted to talk through that a bit.
13:02But in your experience after leaving the United Pentecostal Church, what were ordinary decisions
13:08that everybody else would just not even think about that you felt were reasons that the
13:15UPC would say you had abandoned God?
13:17Yeah.
13:17So it was mainly the standards.
13:19I had worn makeup in high school and pretty much worn a minimal amount up until even before
13:26I left my hair.
13:28I'd always kept it long, but I had I had trimmed it most of my adult life anyway.
13:32So those things, you know, they would say, oh, my word, you know, you're going to go to
13:36hell or whatever.
13:37And and I just it was hard for me to learn how to wear pants that felt weird.
13:41And I still to this day don't wear them that much.
13:44But when I started going to this church that I'm going to, there was a girl there that
13:48she sent me a it was she sent me a thing from a meme that was a Halloween costume of
13:54jeans
13:54and said a UPC Halloween costume.
13:57So she saw me in jeans for the first time.
13:59That was a big deal.
14:00And then at one point she wanted she had tattoos and she asked me if I had a tattoo.
14:04And I said, no, UPC, I would have never been allowed to get a tattoo.
14:08And she said, well, we need to go and get one.
14:09I'm like, no, I don't want to hurt myself.
14:11That hurts.
14:11I don't want to do it.
14:12She's like, have you had a have you had a baby?
14:13And I said, yeah, without an epidural.
14:15She goes, oh, girl, that's nothing.
14:16You can get a tattoo.
14:17But what was funny is we left and got in the car and went home.
14:20I told my husband, I said, a year ago, I would have been appalled and gone.
14:23No way.
14:24I can't get a tattoo.
14:25That's, you know, that's against the rules.
14:27And that's the blow.
14:27And I the fact that I even entertained the thought to me was freeing.
14:34And even though I probably will never get one because I just don't want one.
14:37It was freeing to me to be able to have that conversation.
14:40And it was wild that I had even had it without getting, you know, wound up and all of that.
14:45So, yeah, that's that's kind of been some interesting stuff for me to kind of figure out.
14:50And it does.
14:52It feels so different.
14:53It feels freeing.
14:54And I think that's one of the things I told somebody the other day was I'm free to be myself
14:58now.
14:59I don't feel like I'm faking it.
15:00I don't feel like a hypocrite as much.
15:03So that helps.
15:04And I recently heard a podcast from my pastor that married me.
15:09And one of the things that I have been really on my heart lately is I think we focus in
15:15the UPC so much on the outward, the standards.
15:18We don't value the soul.
15:20We don't value the person.
15:22And sometimes I think and I felt that way when when we went through leaving and how we were treated.
15:28They didn't care about, you know, how hurt we were or, you know, what had happened to my daughter or
15:34any of that.
15:36They just cared about, you know, saving their skin and making things look a certain way.
15:42And because we didn't abide by whatever they wanted us to do and it didn't look just so, then we
15:48were worthless to them.
15:49But yet at the same time, they'll welcome a complete stranger off the street who's got a drug problem and
15:54say, oh, God can save them and fix them.
15:56OK, well, then why can't you believe if you believe that I was wayward and I backslid?
16:01Why don't you believe that I can be, you know, brought back?
16:04So that that's really kind of bugged me a little bit recently.
16:08Absolutely.
16:09I remember whenever I left and we left the same type of mindset.
16:12We weren't United Pentecostal Church, but we had many similarities.
16:15I did a deep study on what it means to have pride because pride is one of the sins listed
16:23all throughout the New Testament.
16:24And also, what did it mean when it said modesty?
16:27And it was a little bit surprising to me that modesty did not mean showing of skin in the Pentecostal
16:33world.
16:34Showing of skin is what it's talking about.
16:37Well, I saw some pictures of the dress for ladies and the dress for men back in the ancient world.
16:43And I'm like, oh, my gosh, Pentecostals would go nuts if somebody walked into church like this and say, you
16:48guys are nude.
16:49But that's that's the way it was.
16:51If you think how the toga was made, et cetera.
16:53So I did those studies and I came to realize that exactly what you said.
16:57I found the passages of the Bible that said God looks at the heart, not the outward experience or the
17:03outward appearance, I should say.
17:05Anyway, so there were some there are some false dichotomies that we had as in the Pentecostal world.
17:11Now, I want to preface this and the next part of this podcast with this fact.
17:18It's not that I'm picking on the Pentecostal church by no means.
17:21I really have nothing against UPCI at all.
17:24I have had a few guests who were former UPCI.
17:27What I do have a problem with are when people are abused or hurt.
17:31And for me, I'll stand up for the hurt person.
17:33I don't care if you're a Catholic, I don't care if you're a Pentecostal Baptist, what you are.
17:37If people are being victimized, you need to stop this.
17:40And I would think that as an organization, I would think that they would want to help people who are
17:45experiencing shunning and abuse and spiritual abuse, emotional abuse, all of these things.
17:50But when somebody leaves, this struggle that you're talking about is real.
17:55It really is.
17:56People end up developing, in a lot of cases, complex trauma.
18:00And it may take years for them to overcome what happens when they first leave.
18:06Now, they may have had a good life in the cult.
18:08And then suddenly, and I said cult because I'm referring to my experience, not yours.
18:13They may have had a good experience in the church that is being a little bit more controlling than usual.
18:19But then when they leave, because of the way that members come together in a group think-like mindset, I'm
18:28trying to be cautious with my words, when they leave, they went out from us because they were not of
18:33us is the mindset.
18:35And sometimes they'll even preach sermons like this.
18:38Well, what happens is the people who are in the church, they start to turn against those who left, and
18:44they start to nitpick every decision they make.
18:46This is a real thing.
18:47This happens with many, many people who are in the support groups that I used to manage and sharing the
18:53stories on Fridays.
18:55I want to talk through that a bit.
18:57What does that struggle look like for you after you left, and what might other people who are going through
19:05this or who have gone through this, what might they be overlooking as far as mending those relationships and helping
19:13to overcome?
19:14Well, for me, you know, we told them we wanted to leave that church because of how a situation was
19:18handled at camp.
19:19And I know we've teased that several times, and we've never really gone through it, and we need to at
19:24some point.
19:24But, you know, we were told not to come back.
19:29Like, we couldn't come on the premises.
19:30We'd be arrested.
19:31And there's some people that are like, what?
19:33I want you to go and see if they'll actually do it.
19:35And I don't want to cause a problem.
19:37I don't hate the UPC.
19:39I had a really good childhood.
19:40I had really good parents.
19:42I've got some really good friends and family that are in it.
19:44And I think there's a lot of good people in the UPC.
19:46But I think, and this is one of the reasons that I want to talk out, and I want to
19:49say things,
19:50is that a lot of times we hurt our own people, and we don't realize that they're going through something.
19:57And we don't reach out, and we don't help them through it like we would somebody who was a drug
20:03addict
20:03or, you know, an abused wife or, you know, something along that line.
20:07And that was what it was for me.
20:09I was told never to come back to this church with the pastor by this family that I had been
20:13my whole life looking up to.
20:15And we loved them.
20:17My parents just thought that nothing could, you know, they could do no wrong.
20:21And so everything that I had ever known was ripped from me.
20:24And then I was told, well, just forgive and move on.
20:27Just forgive and move on.
20:28Well, yeah, that's great for them because they're, you know, in the UPC.
20:31They're at headquarters.
20:32They're big-time preachers.
20:33They don't want egg on their face.
20:35They don't want anybody saying anything mean.
20:37So I think sometimes we cannibalize our own, and we don't stop and think that, you know,
20:42this is a person who's going through something.
20:44We moved here.
20:45We moved my dad here.
20:46He was a polio survivor.
20:47He was in a wheelchair.
20:48And I was his primary caregiver, and he was living with us.
20:51And I had a three-year-old.
20:53And, you know, a few years into it, my husband got cancer.
20:56And so I had a business, a husband with cancer, a nine-year-old daughter,
20:58a dad who fell three times out of his wheelchair and broke his leg,
21:01and was in and out of the hospital for that, and diabetes, and pneumonia, and flu.
21:05And I would go to church, and people would say, how's your dad?
21:08And I'm like, he's fine.
21:09He's being weighted on the hand and foot at the hospital.
21:11But I'm struggling to, you know, put food on the table and pay the bills and, you know,
21:16get some sleep and just take care of the dog.
21:19And so I think sometimes we get, we just cannibalize our own, and we focus on the wrong thing.
21:24And I think instead of just going after somebody, when you see them doing things that, you know,
21:29they say they don't believe or doing something that's off, stop and say, hey, what is going on with them?
21:36Is there something that we can do?
21:37Can we come alongside and help?
21:39Rather than saying, oh, my Lord, they've backslid, and, you know, we've got to get rid of them
21:42because they're going to make the church look bad, or they're, you know, full of the devil.
21:46And it's just that part of it I don't understand.
21:49You know, that we say we love people, we say we love God, but we don't value his children.
21:54You know, it all goes back to the fact of the question, is it a high-control group or is
22:00it not a high-control group?
22:01If it is a high-control group, what happens is this.
22:04When you leave church, the people want to control you even though you're no longer a member of that church.
22:09And that's really interesting when you think about it.
22:11If you go to a non-high-control church, say you go to the Baptist church.
22:15I've actually spent a year or two years in the Baptist church before we moved to a different church.
22:20When I left, there wasn't a single person who looked at me and started posting things about me
22:26and internally talking, look, he's not living the Baptist way.
22:30And they knew that I had gone to this other church, and they accepted the fact that I no longer
22:35believe like they did.
22:36I now have a new church, a new pastor, a new leader, a new mentality.
22:39And they just looked at it like, well, I still like John, and many of them still, like I went
22:45out to dinner multiple times recently
22:47with people who are still members of that church.
22:51They don't care.
22:52They see me as John.
22:53They don't see me as the lost soul who left our fold.
22:56And that's really what it comes down to.
22:58You're in a high-control group, and you leave, and suddenly they still want to control you,
23:03but they start lashing out because they know they're losing control of you.
23:08They can no longer manipulate you.
23:10That's what it looks like from what you're describing and what other people have told me.
23:15It's a surface relationship, I think, a lot of the time, and that's why I felt so lonely,
23:19because I don't feel like anybody really got to know me.
23:23One of the things, my dad, when he passed away, I had pictures of him walking on crutches,
23:27and people were just blown away from this church that he walked on crutches
23:32because they never took the time to get to know him.
23:35And the people that did were like, you need to write a book.
23:37He's got a lot of wisdom.
23:39He's really a neat guy.
23:40And I was like, yeah.
23:41So I think that's one of the things that I really struggled with was I don't feel like
23:46anybody really knew me.
23:48They knew the outside me.
23:50They knew my pedigree.
23:50They knew my parents were maybe.
23:52They knew I was UPC, but they didn't really know me.
23:55And I think we need to get to know people because when you get to know people,
24:00you can tell when they're down, when they're hurting.
24:02Wednesday night at church, I had a lady come by, and my daughter is struggling like crazy.
24:07And so we were both kind of had kind of an issue in the last couple of weeks or whatever.
24:11And she knew right off that we weren't good.
24:13We weren't right because she got taken the time to get to know us.
24:16And she didn't have to judge us from, you know, what we look like or any of that.
24:21It was just, you know, were you okay?
24:24And they cared about me, not what I looked like and not that I was, you know,
24:28adhering to a bunch of rules to make the church look good.
24:32Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started
24:35or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,
24:41charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
24:45You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
24:50william-branham.org.
24:52On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
24:58Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,
25:02with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
25:07You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
25:13If you want to contribute to the cause,
25:15you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
25:19And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
25:25watching.
25:26On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
25:31So let's talk about loneliness and getting help for a while.
25:35You described your situation and the loneliness that you felt.
25:39Think about this.
25:41When you value a person, whether you know them or not,
25:45whether they believe like you or not,
25:48and they need help,
25:50if you value them as a person, you will offer them help.
25:52I can't tell you how many times I have walked into a room
25:55and noticed somebody who's really struggling in that room,
25:58and while everybody else is partying and having fun,
26:01I will navigate usually to the person who's down the most
26:03and try to lift them up.
26:05That's just how my personality is.
26:06Because I value them as a person.
26:09Some of these people I've never even seen before.
26:11They're just people that I can tell they're down on their luck.
26:14Well, let's lift them up.
26:15That's the way people should be,
26:16especially in a church setting.
26:19When you value a person
26:21and you value them as an individual,
26:23you let this happen.
26:24When you're in a control group,
26:26you don't really so much value the individual
26:29as you do the individual's
26:31compliance with your
26:32rule set.
26:34And that's a distinction that has to be made here.
26:37Because of this,
26:39it makes it very difficult for somebody
26:40who have left
26:42to even go back to the people
26:43that they were really connected to
26:45within the group
26:46because they no longer value them
26:48as an individual.
26:49They see them as a person who's breaking off.
26:51What is that like for you?
26:53Is there anybody
26:53in your former life in that church
26:56that you could say,
26:57I honestly can go to them
26:58and just open up my heart
27:00because I'm lonely?
27:01No.
27:02No.
27:03My husband,
27:03there's a,
27:06not really,
27:06I've got some good friends
27:08outside of church.
27:08My best friend
27:09from elementary school,
27:12some of my friends
27:13that I've made now,
27:14a former pastor's wife
27:16in Arkansas,
27:16there's a few people that I have,
27:17but none of them live
27:18close to me
27:19that are in any sort of
27:21like high control
27:22that would understand.
27:23Now,
27:23there's people in my church now
27:25that I can talk to,
27:26but when we were in the,
27:28especially in the last church,
27:30it was so lonely for me
27:31because there were cliques
27:31and we were never invited
27:34to go to anything.
27:35I would say,
27:36I'd ask somebody
27:37to go out to lunch
27:38and they would say,
27:38oh no,
27:39we can't,
27:39we've got plans.
27:40Then that afternoon
27:41you'd see on Facebook
27:42where a bunch of them
27:42had gotten together
27:43at a restaurant
27:44and my thought was,
27:45well,
27:45you couldn't just include us?
27:48That was to me so odd
27:50and then to go through
27:51what I was going through
27:52with my dad
27:53when he was sick
27:54and you just,
27:54when you're a caregiver
27:55of an elderly parent
27:56that is in the situation
27:58that my dad was in,
28:00it's very difficult.
28:01It's very lonely
28:02because people,
28:03you know,
28:03I was what they call
28:04the sandwich generation.
28:05I was caring for my dad,
28:06but I also had a three
28:07or four year old
28:08at the time
28:10and so it was just very lonely
28:12and people don't want
28:13to invite you to go anywhere
28:14because you got this person
28:15in a wheelchair
28:16you got to drag along
28:17and take care of
28:18and they didn't take the time
28:20to get to know him
28:20and know that he was
28:21an amazing person.
28:22They would have loved
28:22to have him
28:23and so it just got
28:24very, very lonely
28:25and when we were in Arkansas,
28:28my husband and I both
28:29made quite a bit of money
28:30in television
28:31and so we would go,
28:32you know,
28:33with some friends
28:33or something.
28:34We'd go out of town
28:35for the weekends
28:35on the holidays
28:36for the July
28:37or we'd have people over
28:37and we'd go to their house
28:38and I found that
28:40when we moved here
28:40that didn't happen
28:41and I was getting
28:43to the point
28:43where I was,
28:44we were alone on holidays
28:45and it was just
28:45the four of us
28:46staring at each other
28:48and Thanksgiving
28:48and Christmas
28:49I'm making this huge meal
28:50for the people
28:51I cook for every night
28:51of the week
28:52and it's no different
28:54and towards the end
28:56there were times
28:56I got very suicidal
28:58and when we left
29:00and I realized
29:01just how alone
29:02I had been
29:02and how alone
29:03I currently was,
29:04it got really bad
29:05and about July
29:06a couple of years ago
29:07my husband was in the shower
29:08and I was taking
29:09my medication
29:10and I thought,
29:11I wonder if I just
29:11overtook my medication,
29:12if I would just go to sleep
29:14and if anybody would care
29:16and I had to go
29:17and get into therapy
29:18and thankfully
29:19I didn't,
29:20I was able to pull myself
29:21out of that
29:22but it's very scary
29:23to be in that situation
29:24and there are people
29:25in our churches
29:26that are going through that
29:27and we don't,
29:28we don't even take the time
29:29to get to know them
29:30and to say,
29:32you know,
29:32hey,
29:32are you okay?
29:33Can we get together?
29:34Can we go have coffee?
29:35It's,
29:36you need to forgive
29:36and move on.
29:37When I would bring stuff
29:39up to my pastor
29:39about things that
29:40had bothered me
29:41about,
29:41you know,
29:42the way we had been
29:43treated in a certain thing,
29:44he's like,
29:44well,
29:45you just need to forgive
29:45and move on.
29:46Well,
29:47there's a certain point
29:47where forgiving
29:48and move on
29:49is no longer good for you
29:50because you're just
29:51taking it on the chin
29:52all the time
29:53and that's where I am
29:54with my daughter.
29:55She's taking so much
29:56on the chin
29:56that I'm starting
29:57to ball up my fist
29:59and go,
29:59no,
29:59you're not getting near her.
30:00You're,
30:01you're not,
30:01you got to go through me
30:03because she's,
30:03she's just hurt
30:04so bad from it.
30:05I'm one of the few people
30:06who had the opportunity
30:08to watch what happens
30:09when somebody leaves
30:11during my transition away.
30:13There was a,
30:14there was a period of time
30:14that I had come to the conclusion
30:17that I was in a high demand group.
30:19I didn't really,
30:20I don't know if I would have
30:21called it a Colton,
30:22but I knew it was a high demand,
30:23high control group
30:24and I knew something was wrong
30:25and we made a conscious decision
30:27that this,
30:28this was about,
30:29I think it was Labor Day
30:31is whenever I finally made
30:32the decision.
30:33We decided,
30:34we made a conscious decision
30:35to leave January 1st, 2012.
30:37We actually put it on the calendar
30:39because our children
30:40were involved in the homeschool
30:42that was part of the community
30:43of the high demand group we left
30:45and we wanted them
30:46to finish it out,
30:47have the Christmas program
30:48and then we were going
30:49to tell our families
30:50and this would give us
30:51an opportunity
30:52so that we could have
30:53a normal,
30:55if you call it normal,
30:56Christmas and Thanksgiving
30:57with the family.
30:58So we made a conscious decision.
31:00during this period of time
31:01because I did this,
31:02I had the opportunity
31:03of watching somebody leave
31:04and watching what happened
31:06and this was eye-opening
31:08for me because of this.
31:10I watched the person leave.
31:11I wasn't that close to them
31:13but I did know them enough
31:14to see what was happening
31:15and they,
31:16they left the group
31:17and they became
31:18very distraught.
31:20They were very alone,
31:22very lonely,
31:23down on their luck.
31:24Their head was hanging.
31:25This was a normally happy,
31:27jovial person.
31:27You could tell
31:28they're,
31:29they're deep in depression.
31:30That's probably
31:31what was happening
31:32and I watched
31:33the reaction
31:34from the group.
31:35Instead of saying,
31:37let's reach out
31:38a helping hand,
31:39this person is down.
31:40Yes,
31:40they've left our group
31:41but this is an individual
31:42we respect.
31:43Instead,
31:44what happens is
31:44they almost revel
31:46in the glory
31:47of the fact
31:48that he's suffering.
31:49He left
31:49and look what God
31:50is doing to him,
31:51that kind of thing.
31:52You're being punished
31:53because,
31:54you know,
31:55everything you've ever heard
31:56and everything you've ever
31:56been preached,
31:57if you leave,
31:58your whole world
31:58is going to fall apart.
32:00Absolutely.
32:01And I'm curious,
32:02is it the same
32:03in the United Pentecostal Church?
32:05Did you experience
32:06any of this?
32:07Oh yeah.
32:07I mean,
32:08I'm still to this day
32:09afraid to say anything
32:10about anything financial
32:12like with our store.
32:13It's a struggle
32:14and I don't know
32:15how much longer
32:15I can keep it open
32:16but I don't want to say
32:18anything to anybody
32:19that's in the UPC
32:20or anywhere else
32:20or like,
32:21well,
32:21it's because you're not
32:22paying your tithes.
32:23It's because you left
32:23the church.
32:24You're not being faithful.
32:25No,
32:26it was going on
32:26when I was in the church
32:27and you didn't bother
32:28to come and support
32:28my small business.
32:30It doesn't matter
32:30that I came and supported
32:31your restaurant
32:32or whatever
32:33and I'm really conscious
32:34of that.
32:34If somebody,
32:35you know,
32:35has a business
32:36and they're a friend
32:37of mine,
32:37I tend to try
32:38and,
32:38you know,
32:38support them
32:39because I know
32:39what it feels like.
32:40I'm not going to go
32:41some,
32:42you know,
32:42to Hobby Lobby
32:43and get a frame
32:43if my friend
32:44owns a frame store
32:45and,
32:45you know,
32:45that's what we do
32:46so that's kind of
32:47the example
32:49that I can give.
32:50Yeah,
32:51it's one of those things
32:52where you just,
32:53and I've got friends
32:54that,
32:55you know,
32:55their parents,
32:56they can't have
32:57their parents around
32:57to have any peace
32:59because they're just
32:59constantly nagging them
33:01about why aren't you
33:03getting back in church?
33:04Why don't you get back
33:04in church?
33:05Get back in church.
33:06My nephew's the same way.
33:07He is so pushed away
33:08he doesn't want to
33:09darken the door
33:10of any church
33:10because he's just
33:12been nagged to death
33:12about it
33:13and you've got,
33:14it's,
33:15you've got to just
33:16let people figure it out
33:17and love people.
33:19If you really want
33:20them to come back,
33:21love them back.
33:22If you really have
33:24the truth
33:24and you really have
33:25the love of God
33:26and you're saved,
33:28then love them
33:29and then the right
33:30thing will happen
33:31whether it's what
33:31you want to happen
33:32or not
33:33but you've got
33:34to love them.
33:35My daughter is
33:36really,
33:36really amazing
33:37because she came
33:38home from school
33:39one day
33:39and she's been
33:40like this her entire
33:41life even when she
33:42was little in Sunday
33:42school.
33:43There'd be a new
33:44person come into
33:44the classroom
33:45and she'd be like,
33:46come sit by me,
33:46you know,
33:47my name's Savannah,
33:47this is my friend
33:48and,
33:49you know,
33:49come sit by me
33:49and I'd hear back
33:50from the parents
33:50just how friendly
33:51and how nice
33:52that was
33:53and one day
33:54she came home
33:55from school
33:55and she said,
33:56mom,
33:56there was a girl
33:56sitting in the lunchroom
33:57and she was sitting
33:58all by herself
33:59and so I went over
34:00there to talk to her
34:00and come to find out
34:01she's from Little Rock
34:02and,
34:03you know,
34:03they've got things
34:04in common
34:04and they were friends
34:05and it was amazing
34:07to me.
34:07I'm just blown away
34:09at how loving she is
34:11because we never
34:12taught her to be
34:13anything else.
34:14We've always taught her
34:15to,
34:15you know,
34:16value people
34:17and love your friends
34:18and she can have
34:19friends that aren't
34:19in church
34:20and she can love them
34:21and she can be around them.
34:22One of her,
34:23one of her best friends
34:24through high school
34:25has some mental issues
34:26and she's of a different
34:28ethnicity
34:28and her mom was going
34:29to put her in a different
34:30private school
34:31after middle school
34:32because she was afraid
34:33she'd get picked on
34:33in high school
34:34and she wouldn't do it
34:35because Savannah
34:36was her biggest,
34:37like,
34:39cheerleader
34:40and she knew that Savannah
34:42would watch her
34:42and I was so proud of that
34:44and I think that's the way
34:45we need to be in life.
34:46We need to watch out
34:48for the people that
34:48are going through things
34:50and don't have what we have
34:51or need something.
34:53You know,
34:54if I see somebody
34:54with a need,
34:55I tend to go and get it
34:57and, you know,
34:58pay for it
34:59and just give it to them.
35:00Drives my husband crazy
35:01but I just don't,
35:03I don't want people
35:04to suffer.
35:05I love people.
35:06And along the same lines,
35:07when you leave,
35:08there's a series of emotions
35:11that you go through
35:12and it's a flood of emotions
35:13but you go through first
35:14the initial problem
35:17that made you decide
35:19that it was time to leave
35:20and then you have to reconcile
35:22the fact that you're about to leave
35:23and it gets really difficult
35:24because you actually anticipate
35:26the fallout
35:27that's going to happen
35:28before you even leave.
35:30And then,
35:31there's this period of time,
35:32I want to talk through this with you
35:33and see if it was the same for you.
35:34There's a period of time
35:35after you first leave
35:37that you are very anxious
35:40because you already know
35:42some of the things
35:42that people will say
35:44to those who have left.
35:45At least it was that way
35:46in the high control group
35:47that I went to
35:48and all things out in the open,
35:50I was part of that
35:51high control group.
35:52I know the things that are said
35:54because I said them
35:54to people who left.
35:56So, I'm guilty
35:56just like the rest.
35:58But when you leave
35:59that anxiety
36:00that you know
36:00what's going to be said
36:01because there are people
36:03who are familiar
36:04with all of this,
36:05that anxiety goes
36:05through the roof
36:06and what was that like for you?
36:09Did you have the same
36:09anxiety?
36:10Did the UPC
36:11give that type of mentality
36:14to you when you left?
36:15I didn't have anxiety
36:17going up to leaving
36:20originally when we left the church
36:21and were told never to come back
36:22because it just happened
36:23in a matter of a week.
36:25Like it was a couple of days
36:26just absolute trauma.
36:28So, we took some time.
36:30We didn't go to any other churches.
36:31We just took some time
36:32to stay home
36:33and try and find our way
36:36and that's when I found podcasts
36:37and called people
36:38that I had been told
36:40not to talk to
36:40because they left
36:41and just repented
36:42and said,
36:42I'm so sorry.
36:43Like I would have never done this
36:45but I didn't want to get in trouble
36:46and I didn't want to be talked about
36:47the way you were talked about
36:48and I found that they were
36:49very gracious
36:50and understanding
36:51and really helped me.
36:53We ultimately found our way
36:55into another UPC church
36:57that we had to drive
36:57an hour for
36:58and we stayed there
36:58for about a year
37:00and a lot of it was,
37:02okay, we know you're hurting
37:03but forgive and move on
37:04and my daughter
37:05was having trouble fitting in
37:06and she had lost all of her friends
37:07from the previous church
37:09and she just couldn't take it anymore
37:10and so then we started thinking
37:12about leaving
37:13and then the anxiety hit
37:14and it was like,
37:15okay, they're watching.
37:16You feel like you're under a microscope
37:17because you feel like they know,
37:19you know,
37:20they know something's coming up
37:22but we went,
37:24we didn't want to leave.
37:25My cousin was coming to preach
37:26and I wanted to be there for him
37:28when he preached
37:28and then leave
37:30and it ended up,
37:30he got snowed out
37:31and I had to beg the ministry
37:32to just spend five minutes
37:34with him anyway
37:34so he ended up not coming
37:36and that was it.
37:37We just never went back.
37:38We texted the pastor
37:39and said we've transitioned out.
37:40We had told them
37:41that we were thinking about it
37:43and they of course,
37:44you know,
37:44God told us this
37:45and they were praying for us
37:46and I don't think it was that.
37:47I think I told somebody
37:48and I think she went and ran
37:49and told them.
37:50I don't think God told them anything
37:53so we then just,
37:54you know,
37:54started looking at other churches
37:56and we found this church
37:57that we're currently in
37:58and my daughter felt
37:59extremely loved
38:00and welcomed.
38:01She doesn't anymore
38:02so things have gotten
38:03a little rough
38:04but we didn't,
38:05we had the anxiety
38:06a year after we had,
38:07so it was trauma,
38:08a year of trying to heal
38:09and go through some of that stuff
38:10and then the anxiety
38:11but yeah,
38:12you do because you know,
38:14okay,
38:14that person there,
38:15you know,
38:15I've heard that they're deceived,
38:18they've been deceived
38:19so they've left the truth
38:19and God's going to,
38:20you know,
38:21give them over to reprobate mind
38:22and they're going to go to hell.
38:24I had one minister say,
38:25I won't even talk to anybody
38:26who leaves
38:27because they're,
38:27you know,
38:27they're just full of the devil
38:28and that just,
38:30I can't do that
38:31they're people
38:33and they were my friends
38:34and I love them
38:35and I just was never able
38:37to do that.
38:38So let's talk a little bit
38:39about salvation
38:40in the United Pentecostal Church.
38:42Being a Pentecostal organization,
38:44I have some idea
38:45as to what this is like
38:47but what did you believe
38:49that you had to do
38:50after leaving
38:51the United Pentecostal Church
38:53to remain saved
38:54and how do you look
38:55at that same experience now?
38:57So when I left,
38:58I really didn't feel like
38:59I had to change anything
39:00for salvation.
39:01I did start realizing
39:04that the gospel
39:05for everybody else
39:07in Christianity
39:07was that Jesus died
39:09and went to the cross
39:10for our salvation.
39:11You know,
39:11grace through faith,
39:12not through works
39:13and performance
39:14and that thing,
39:14that sort of thing.
39:15In the UPC,
39:17the gospel is Acts 2.38
39:19and so that's why
39:20I had a real problem,
39:22like I said,
39:23with my last podcast
39:24when I was talking
39:25to my daughter.
39:26I was really afraid
39:27that she hadn't been given that
39:28and I had to really
39:30come to terms with that
39:31when we left
39:32that, you know,
39:34it was grace
39:35and it was what he did
39:36on the cross.
39:37The Acts 2.38 stuff,
39:38that was all good.
39:39I had done that.
39:40I wasn't really worried
39:42about not being saved.
39:43I think since then,
39:44I've really learned about grace
39:47and my viewpoint on that
39:49is your salvation
39:50is your relationship with God.
39:52If you have a relationship
39:54with him
39:54and you're reading the Bible
39:55and you're doing
39:56what he feels you need to do
39:57and you feel like
39:58you're having a relationship
40:00with him
40:01and you're loving other people,
40:03then that's where
40:04your salvation
40:05is going to come from.
40:06I'm not discounting baptism.
40:08I'm not discounting
40:09the Holy Ghost
40:10or any of that
40:11but I do think that
40:13even with everything,
40:15the requirements that we have
40:16is what is your relationship
40:17with God?
40:18It's not all this outward stuff
40:19because I've met so many people
40:22that focus on the outward
40:23but the inward,
40:24there's no relationship.
40:25I remember when I first left
40:27and I came in contact
40:29with the grace mentality,
40:30I was a little surprised
40:32that I had read the Bible
40:33as many times as I had
40:34while I was in the group
40:35and never really understood
40:37the concept
40:37and I also realized
40:39at the same time
40:40that it was because
40:41of the way
40:42that they taught the Bible
40:43and I don't know
40:44if this is the same way for you,
40:45I'm actually just feeling
40:46you out a little bit here.
40:48We were taught the Bible
40:50whenever we heard a sermon
40:51about the Bible.
40:52It was usually a sermon
40:53about a verse in the Bible
40:55and so the verse wasn't really
40:56in the context of the passage
40:58and I read the Bible
41:00in a passage-by-passage manner,
41:03not from start to finish
41:04from a book
41:05to the end of the book.
41:06Whenever I did,
41:08I started to realize
41:08that a lot of the things
41:09that we were taught
41:10weren't taught
41:11in the context of Scripture
41:12and so instead of even
41:14being outside of the Bible,
41:15some cases I was finding things
41:17that we were taught
41:18that were just anti-biblical
41:19because they tried
41:21to make this verse
41:21say something
41:22it really didn't say.
41:24Did you experience
41:25any of that?
41:26What was that like for you
41:27just after you came
41:28out of that mindset?
41:29What was it like
41:30reading the Bible for you?
41:32My dad had taught me
41:35back when I had first
41:36come out of high school.
41:38I would go to him
41:38and I'd ask a question.
41:39He'd say,
41:39you've got to go figure
41:40that out for yourself.
41:41I'm not going to be alive
41:41the rest of your life
41:42to answer all your questions
41:43and so I did
41:44and so I really feel
41:46like I had an understanding
41:47of what I believed
41:50but my daughter
41:51didn't have that
41:52and so I had to explain
41:53some of that to her
41:53and I really had
41:55to come to terms
41:56with grace
41:57and relearn that.
41:58I remember as a teenager
41:59anytime they preached
42:01about the cross
42:02or what he did
42:02on the cross
42:03it would get to me
42:04and it was just
42:05because of what he did
42:06for us.
42:07I would cry
42:07and I just felt
42:09so horrible
42:10but then you're in it
42:12so long
42:12and people make fun
42:13of people that talk
42:15about grace
42:15so it's sloppy agape
42:16and it's grace
42:17they want a license
42:18to do whatever they want
42:19in the world
42:20and that's grace to them
42:22and for me grace
42:23is not that.
42:25It's the love of God
42:27that he went to the cross
42:28and died for us
42:30you know mercy
42:31we did not deserve
42:32we don't deserve
42:33what he's done for us
42:36and I think
42:37if people focused
42:38on that less
42:39than you got it
42:40you know
42:42fill in the blanks
42:42on all these criteria
42:44and look a certain way
42:45and follow all these rules
42:46and if you know
42:47in the UPC
42:48sometimes you feel like
42:49if you cut your hair
42:51like I would get gum
42:52in my hair
42:52and my mom would cut it out
42:53and I would just grieve
42:54because I thought
42:55oh well that's it
42:55I'm going to go to hell
42:56that I mean
42:57they say if you cut your hair
42:58you're going to hell
42:58it was just very difficult
43:00and very scary as a child
43:02and I don't like that
43:03and my daughter was taught that
43:04and we've been spending
43:05a lot of time
43:06trying to reverse that
43:07she is amazing
43:09she's really very smart
43:11and she's come to terms with it
43:13and she's doing really well
43:14in fact
43:15the other day
43:15she led the first CU
43:18at the pole
43:18at her school
43:19ever in the history
43:20of the school
43:22got it at five in the morning
43:23and led it
43:24I was blown away
43:25she wants those kids
43:26in her school
43:27to hear the gospel
43:28not Acts 2 38
43:30but how much God loves them
43:32and her school
43:33is mainly
43:34you know
43:34Muslim
43:35Hindu
43:36and atheist
43:37just because of the makeup
43:38of the area
43:39that we live in
43:40but she's got a heart
43:41for them
43:42she was teaching
43:42Bible
43:43you know
43:44little kid Bible studies
43:45to some of her
43:46first graders
43:47friends at lunch
43:48and I'm really proud
43:50of that
43:51because it's not
43:51we're getting away
43:52from the rules base
43:53you've got to do
43:54X Y and Z
43:55or you're going to hell
43:56to you've got to love people
43:57and tell them about Jesus
43:58and what he did for them
43:59yeah we grew up
44:01with the mentality
44:01that there was hell
44:03and hot irons
44:04in the back of our minds
44:04at all times
44:06in fact
44:07what you said
44:08is something that
44:08I want to go back
44:09to a little bit
44:10we were taught
44:11the same way
44:12even if you
44:13accidentally
44:15cut your hair
44:15as a female
44:16you might accidentally
44:17find yourself in hell
44:18I remember
44:20one of the girls
44:21I can't remember
44:22she was in her teens
44:23she had an accident
44:25with a curling iron
44:25and I remember
44:26the conversations about her
44:27can she even go to heaven
44:28because an accident
44:30burned off some of her hair
44:31in the curling iron
44:32and that to a child
44:34or a teenager
44:35it's devastating
44:36but take that a step further
44:38we had some of the churches
44:39that were so destructive
44:40that they would actually
44:42bring the child
44:43in front of all of the people
44:44and have a session
44:46where they cut their hair
44:47after telling them
44:48that if they cut their hair
44:49they were doomed to hell
44:50they would burn in hell fires
44:51well then they brought
44:52the child before the people
44:53and they did this
44:54essentially telling
44:55all of the world
44:56that they're not going to be
44:57in heaven with your parents
44:58that's really what they're saying
44:59that's how bad
45:01and destructive this gets
45:03and at the same time
45:04we were taught
45:05that these leaders
45:06though they were vicious wolves
45:07in this case
45:08these leaders
45:09you couldn't do anything
45:10to stop them
45:11because of
45:12the touch not
45:13God's anointed passage
45:14and
45:16they obey your leader's passage
45:17they were so far
45:19taken out of context
45:20I actually have a podcast
45:21I think it might come up
45:23before this one
45:24maybe slightly after
45:24where I'm going into
45:26that scripture about
45:28you know
45:28the submit to your leaders
45:29and you must obey
45:30it's not really
45:31to be interpreted
45:32in the way that they do it
45:34did they have the same
45:35kind of
45:36touch not God's anointed
45:37mentality
45:38in the UPC
45:39yes they did
45:41no we didn't have
45:42like the bringing
45:43forward and shaming
45:45like that
45:45that never
45:46I don't
45:47that I know of
45:48never quite happened
45:49but yes
45:50you know
45:50you have to
45:51you have to honor
45:52what your pastor says
45:54and you better not
45:54ask a question
45:55because if you start
45:57questioning it
45:58well then
45:58you know
45:59you're questioning
45:59their authority
46:01and they say
46:01a lot of times
46:02we're going to have to
46:03give account to God
46:04in heaven
46:04for your soul
46:07I wouldn't want
46:08to be a pastor
46:09if that was the case
46:09because people
46:10are people
46:12and they're going
46:12to do things
46:13that you wouldn't
46:14approve of
46:14and you know
46:15you wouldn't want
46:16and so
46:17and on top of that
46:19my daughter
46:20had an incident
46:22happen in this
46:22new church
46:23where a minister
46:24got very aggressive
46:25with her
46:25and because she
46:27had been taught
46:28that scripture
46:28and couldn't
46:30say anything
46:30and couldn't
46:31defend herself
46:31when they were
46:32coming at her
46:33and it wasn't her fault
46:34she's very traumatized
46:35and so she doesn't
46:37she doesn't look
46:38at ministry
46:38with any sort of
46:40honor or reverence
46:41outside of the fact
46:42that they're a person
46:43in fact she looks
46:43at them like
46:44they're going
46:44to hurt her
46:45and I'm very thankful
46:47for the pastor
46:47that we have now
46:48because he looked
46:49her in the face
46:49and he said
46:49I know I didn't
46:50do this to you
46:51but let me just say
46:53I'm sorry that you
46:54feel that way
46:54and I will never
46:55do that
46:56she doesn't believe
46:57him
46:57she still doesn't
46:58believe him
46:58but I know
46:59he's sincere
46:59and I know
47:00his heart
47:00and he's doing
47:01the right thing
47:02and I just hope
47:03that eventually
47:03she can see that
47:05but she does
47:07like once a minister
47:08comes at her aggressively
47:09she's done
47:10she doesn't want
47:10to meet with him
47:11she doesn't want
47:11to talk to him
47:11and whatever they say
47:13is discredited
47:13so you've got to be
47:15so careful
47:15as a pastor
47:17as a minister
47:18and how you handle
47:19people
47:19because if you're
47:21trying to love them
47:22and get them to heaven
47:22or you know
47:23lead them
47:24into the Bible
47:26in a new way
47:27and you cut off
47:29your authority
47:30or you cut off
47:31your voice
47:31by doing
47:32something wrong
47:32that person's
47:33ever going to
47:34listen to you
47:34again
47:35absolutely
47:36and I look
47:37at it like this
47:38if you want
47:39to actually
47:40lead souls
47:40to Christ
47:41you can't treat
47:42them in a way
47:42that they won't
47:43want to be led
47:44that was something
47:45that was really
47:45hard for me
47:46to grasp
47:47after I left
47:48we didn't care
47:49about the lost
47:50we really didn't
47:50in fact
47:51I can tell you
47:52sermon after
47:53sermon after
47:53sermon
47:54where they're
47:54being so condemning
47:55of anybody
47:56who doesn't have
47:57the same mindset
47:57that if an outsider
47:59were to have
47:59actually been
48:00asked to come
48:01to church
48:01they'd get up
48:02and walk out
48:03like why am I
48:03going to sit
48:04and be ridiculed
48:04the whole time
48:05it was a sermon
48:06of ridiculing
48:07is what we had
48:09let's talk about
48:10so after the podcast
48:11came out
48:12you probably saw
48:14it got very good
48:15reviews by the people
48:17who were watching
48:17and you can read
48:18through the comment feed
48:19there were a lot
48:19of people helped
48:21what changed
48:22after that podcast
48:23came out
48:23did you
48:24did you see
48:25any new faces
48:25did you meet
48:26new people
48:26what changed
48:27after the podcast
48:28well I had
48:30some people
48:30that I was
48:31acquainted with
48:32that I didn't
48:32know that they
48:33were struggling
48:34with the same
48:34thing and so
48:35that was very
48:37so many
48:37I was helped
48:38by people
48:39that had been
48:39through it
48:39and so
48:40that's why
48:41I did the podcast
48:42and it was
48:43there were people
48:44that I
48:46you know
48:47were acquaintances
48:47or whatever
48:48that it really
48:49helped them
48:50for me
48:51it was I tore
48:52down the facade
48:53of the goody
48:54goody two shoes
48:54and the
48:56the facade
48:56that I have
48:57always lived
48:57that I was
48:58you know
48:58living the right
48:59way and doing
48:59the right thing
49:00I just became
49:01myself
49:01and it's opened
49:02people up
49:02to be able
49:02to talk to me
49:04and you know
49:05feel vindicated
49:06in what they're
49:06going through
49:07and so that's
49:08been really
49:09really good
49:10I really am
49:12very happy
49:12about that
49:13and what would
49:14you say
49:14after all of
49:15this journey
49:16that you've
49:16gone through
49:16what would
49:17you say
49:17are things
49:18that you're
49:18still working
49:18through
49:19well the biggest
49:20one is just
49:21feeling included
49:22feeling part of
49:23a community
49:23I think churches
49:25have to
49:26one of the
49:26things you have
49:27to do
49:27your doctrine
49:28you gotta have
49:30it
49:30your service
49:32is a certain
49:32way you gotta
49:33have it
49:33there's certain
49:34things that you
49:34have to do
49:35as a church
49:35but you also
49:37need to foster
49:38community
49:39and one of
49:40the things
49:40that I
49:42have really
49:43kind of
49:43pushed since
49:45this happened
49:46because of the
49:47loneliness and the
49:48way that we
49:48were treated
49:49was you've
49:50got to love
49:51love people
49:52you have to
49:53love them
49:54first and
49:54foremost
49:55and if people
49:56are going to
49:56your church
49:56and they don't
49:57feel like they
49:57belong there
49:58and they don't
49:58feel like they're
49:59part of your
49:59group
50:00they're not
50:01gonna stay
50:01they don't
50:02care what
50:02you believe
50:03they don't
50:04care what
50:05you think
50:05of them
50:06they want to
50:06know that
50:07they're loved
50:07and they're
50:07included
50:08like ask
50:09them to
50:09lunch
50:09ask them
50:10to your
50:10house
50:10it's not
50:11the new
50:11person's
50:13job to
50:14become friends
50:14with you
50:15it's your
50:15job to
50:16welcome them
50:16and love
50:17them and be
50:18friends with
50:18them
50:19so that's
50:20that's really
50:21been my
50:22heart
50:22in the
50:23community
50:23part of
50:24it
50:24and my
50:24daughter
50:24is really
50:25struggling
50:25with that
50:26she you know
50:27went to the
50:27youth group
50:28and some of
50:28the people
50:29just really
50:29loved her
50:29and now
50:30she feels
50:30left out
50:31she feels
50:32ignored
50:33I don't
50:33know what's
50:34going on
50:34I've talked
50:35to everybody
50:35in ministry
50:36telling blue
50:36in the face
50:36and I just
50:37I can't do
50:37it anymore
50:39she wants
50:39to maybe look
50:40at another
50:40church and
50:41that hurts
50:42my heart
50:42because I
50:43do think
50:43this is a
50:44good church
50:44and I'm
50:45doing really
50:45well in
50:46it so I
50:47think that's
50:48what we have
50:48to do
50:48we have
50:49to teach
50:49our kids
50:49that when
50:50there's
50:50somebody
50:50that comes
50:51into the
50:51church
50:52that's a
50:52stranger
50:53you have
50:53to love
50:54them
50:54and include
50:54them
50:55you can't
50:56leave them
50:56sitting on
50:56the back
50:57row by
50:57themselves
50:58that's
50:59that is
50:59so
51:01antithetical
51:01of anything
51:02that Jesus
51:03ever taught
51:04you know
51:05he said
51:05let the
51:05little children
51:06come unto
51:06me
51:07they're kids
51:08he wants
51:08to hear
51:09from them
51:09we need
51:10to be
51:10that way
51:10and have
51:11a sense
51:12of community
51:12and that's
51:14my biggest
51:15thing
51:15that in
51:15why I'm
51:16speaking out
51:17and why I
51:17want the
51:18UPC
51:18to understand
51:20you are
51:20not going
51:21to get
51:21people to
51:21abide by
51:22your rules
51:22and your
51:23doctrine
51:23and come
51:23to your
51:24church
51:24and do
51:24all of
51:25that
51:25and feel
51:26like they're
51:26getting kicked
51:26in the teeth
51:27every time
51:28I would walk
51:29I can't tell you
51:29how many times
51:30I would walk
51:30into that church
51:32nobody would
51:32say a word
51:33to me
51:33I would sit
51:33down
51:34go through
51:34service
51:34leave
51:35never having
51:36been spoken
51:37to
51:38and when I
51:39would say
51:39something to
51:40the leadership
51:40they were
51:40like well you
51:41need to look
51:41internally
51:42there's something
51:42wrong with
51:42you
51:43with you
51:43no
51:45no
51:46I'm going
51:47through hell
51:48with sickness
51:48and everything
51:49going on
51:50if you really
51:51love somebody
51:52you don't let
51:52them sit there
51:53and not be
51:53spoken to
51:54it's hard
51:55and I'll go
51:56a step further
51:57when you leave
51:58if you're in
51:59one of these
52:00high control
52:00groups like I
52:01was
52:01not a single
52:02person actually
52:04reach out to me
52:04after I left
52:05not one
52:05and when you're
52:07leaving and you're
52:08already lonely
52:09you're already
52:09suffering with
52:10the anxiety
52:11of leaving
52:11that just
52:12complicates it
52:13all the further
52:13because these
52:14are people that
52:15I have known
52:15my entire life
52:17these are friends
52:17that I had
52:18my entire life
52:18why did not
52:19a single friend
52:20reach out to me
52:21not one
52:21that was really
52:23really hard to
52:23deal with
52:24and the sad
52:25truth of it
52:25is this
52:26your story
52:27is not unique
52:28you can listen
52:29to our stories
52:29on Friday
52:30and you'll
52:30you'll find
52:31other people
52:31who share
52:32similar stories
52:33that you have
52:33but here's the
52:35thing
52:35I've only had
52:36I think
52:36two or maybe
52:37three people
52:38from the UPCI
52:39but I've had
52:40many many more
52:41contact me
52:42there are only
52:43a few who are
52:43brave enough
52:44to step out
52:44and say something
52:45and so the story
52:46that you're sharing
52:47is likely the story
52:49that many listeners
52:50are experiencing
52:51themselves
52:52and like you
52:53if there's a problem
52:54like this
52:54people in the
52:55organization
52:56really need to
52:56step up
52:57and take some
52:57action
52:58what advice
52:59would you give
52:59to people
53:00who are listening
53:01who are going
53:02through this
53:02knowing that
53:04the organization
53:04is not going
53:05to help them
53:05I don't know
53:07I'm still trying
53:07to figure that out
53:08I will say
53:09I did get
53:09contacted
53:10by people
53:10that normally
53:11would just
53:12never speak
53:12to me
53:13and wanted
53:13were nosy
53:14wanted to know
53:14why
53:15what had happened
53:15you know
53:16they wanted
53:16to know
53:16the story
53:17I did get
53:18some of that
53:18I did get
53:19some people
53:19that did care
53:20that reached
53:21out
53:22but I also
53:23we had
53:23one gentleman
53:24who I
53:26who would
53:27call my husband
53:28because he would
53:29see something
53:29on Facebook
53:30that was
53:30you know
53:31not a standard
53:31or whatever
53:32that was
53:32Savannah in shorts
53:33or something
53:34like that
53:34you know
53:34you know
53:35better
53:35you know
53:36better
53:36why are you
53:37doing this
53:37you know
53:37better
53:38dying
53:38on the inside
53:39I'm hurting
53:40I'm traumatized
53:41my daughter's
53:42traumatized
53:42and you
53:43all you care
53:44about is that
53:44she's wearing
53:45shorts
53:45to a playground
53:47to a birthday
53:47party
53:48that stuff
53:49has got to
53:50stop
53:50that is
53:51you
53:51you are never
53:52going to judge
53:53somebody
53:53into loving
53:54God
53:55and being
53:55part of
53:55your church
53:56it's just
53:56not going
53:56to happen
53:57you
53:59I have a
53:59friend
54:00she contacted
54:00me
54:00she's having
54:01trouble
54:01with her
54:01daughter
54:02and she
54:03said
54:03you know
54:03how do you
54:03get your
54:04daughter
54:04to
54:04you know
54:06be so good
54:06in school
54:07and not
54:07skip out
54:08and do
54:08this that
54:08and the other
54:09and I said
54:10she said
54:10my daughter
54:11leaves
54:11and she
54:12won't live
54:13the standards
54:14and I said
54:14your daughter
54:15is from a broken
54:16home
54:16she's got bigger
54:18problems than
54:18whether she wears
54:19a skirt
54:20she's got to
54:21feel love
54:22you've got to
54:23take care of her
54:24emotionally
54:24and physically
54:25first
54:26and we've got
54:27that so backwards
54:28in the UPC
54:28it's like you wear
54:29a skirt
54:30and everything's
54:31good and fine
54:31and dandy
54:32but if you don't
54:32then is there
54:33something wrong
54:36no there's
54:36you've got to
54:37help people
54:37through that
54:38and I told her
54:38I said
54:39stop it
54:40stop focusing
54:41on that
54:41get her the
54:42help that she
54:42needs
54:43let her do
54:44things like
54:44play basketball
54:45and be part
54:47of the school
54:47and use those
54:48resources
54:48don't be afraid
54:49to
54:49I don't know
54:50how many people
54:51have said
54:51you don't go
54:52to a counselor
54:52that's outside
54:53of the church
54:54they'll counsel
54:55you smooth out
54:55of the church
54:57I'm sorry
54:57nobody in the church
54:59cared to talk
54:59to me
54:59and make sure
55:00I was okay
55:01and not going
55:01to kill myself
55:02one day
55:02it was the people
55:03in the world
55:04that did that
55:04it was friends
55:05that I had
55:05outside of the
55:06church
55:06well I'm sorry
55:07to hear it's
55:08still a struggle
55:09and like I said
55:10there are other
55:10people who share
55:11the same struggle
55:11so maybe something
55:12that you've said
55:13can in the podcast
55:14can help them
55:15thank you so much
55:16for coming back
55:16and doing this
55:18yeah I'm happy
55:19to do it
55:19and I have heard
55:19from people
55:20you know
55:20thank you for
55:21the courage
55:21and the bravery
55:22and I just had
55:23to come to
55:23the realization
55:25that people
55:27need help
55:27and me being
55:28silent
55:28and not saying
55:29anything
55:29yeah it makes
55:30my life easier
55:31my sister said
55:31well I hope
55:32you know
55:33you're never
55:33going back
55:34to a UPC church
55:35and I don't care
55:36I don't think
55:37that's the case
55:37I think there are
55:38some good people
55:38and if I needed
55:39to go back
55:40and for some
55:41reason that I
55:41could
55:42but it's been
55:43very encouraging
55:45for me to know
55:46that people
55:47needed to hear it
55:48and that they
55:48didn't have the
55:49courage to say it
55:50and that so
55:50somebody saying it
55:51has helped them
55:52so I appreciate
55:53you allowing us
55:54to come on
55:55and share our
55:55story
55:56absolutely
55:57well if you've
55:58enjoyed our show
55:58and you want
55:59more information
55:59or to share
56:00your story
56:01you can check
56:01us out on the
56:02web
56:02you can find
56:03us at
56:03william-branham.org
56:04for more about
56:05the dark side
56:06of the new
56:06apostolic reformation
56:07you can read
56:08weaponized religion
56:09from Christian
56:10identity to the
56:10NAR
56:11available on
56:12Amazon
56:12Kindle
56:13and Audible
56:14and Audible
56:44and Audible
57:18Audible
57:18Audible
57:18Audible
57:18Audible
57:20Audible
57:20Audible
57:21Audible
57:21Audible
57:21Audible
57:21Audible