00:00So with all eyes on the Supreme Court in our big story on the Election Commission and Gyanesh
00:05Kumar, my first guest is former Supreme Court judge, Justice Madan Lokur. Appreciate your
00:11joining us, Justice Lokur. How do you read what the court said today? Because Justice Surya Khan,
00:18the Chief Justice, has waded into the Form 6 controversy, the form for new voters,
00:24saying any modified Form 6 has not been approved by us. Let's be clear, when the record is produced,
00:32we would like to see who has modified. Now, the Election Commission, on the other hand,
00:38in its press note had said that the Supreme Court had made it very clear that they had the residual
00:43authority to put in additional documents and those documents were cleared by the courts.
00:50How do you see this, that the ECI justified adding the new declaration form, defending the inclusion
00:58of a new declaration form annexed to Form 6, but today the court seems to distance itself
01:04from its own order of May?
01:07Yes. Well, thank you first, Rajdeep. You see, it's like this. The Form 6 is a statutory form,
01:17right? And it can't be changed on the whims and fancies of somebody, right? There is a procedure
01:24for changing something that is statutory. Now, in this particular case, it appears that, you know,
01:32the Form 6 was not changed by the full commission, all right? It appears to have been changed only by
01:38the Chief Election Commissioner. And if that is so, and the Supreme Court has made it very clear today
01:45that they did not endorse the change. Now, if that is so, then, you know, the change in Form 6
01:53is
01:53totally unjustified. And as well, the, you know, election commissioners have said, it is illegal and
02:01unauthorized. So, I frankly don't see any controversy in all this.
02:07No, sir, but because the election commissioners who said it, one of them who said, Sandhu, who said illegal
02:13and unauthorized, the changes that were being made, subsequent to that, all decisions were reportedly passed
02:20unanimously by the election commission. So, while they may have raised questions, objections to the
02:26way Form 6 had been changed, why didn't any of them speak up when this was done before the Bengal
02:33elections ahead of phase 2 of SIR?
02:36Yeah, well, that's a question which is difficult to answer. I think, I think the election commissioners
02:42should have spoken up at the appropriate time. You know, writing letters is all right. You can say,
02:48you can go on writing letters. But when something happens, something of moment happens, you know,
02:54a decision of moment takes place. I think it is imperative for the election commissioners to have
03:00spoken up at that point of time and said, listen, what's all this going on? You know, we've not
03:04authorized this. But why they didn't speak up at the appropriate time is anybody's case.
03:10I hear you. But how do you respond to those who say that there was no real, there was no
03:15change in
03:16Form 6? Only a declaration was added that where you had to map your parents' ancestry and show that
03:23they had also voted in the previous SIR of 2002-3. This is not to be seen as a new
03:31form,
03:31is the justification that EC sources are giving. And therefore, the claim is that they did not hide
03:37anything from the court. Yeah, well, it's a change. OK, so the basic question is, could a change have
03:46been made? I mean, you can say it's an inconsequential change. It can be justified as an
03:50inconsequential change. But the fact is, it was a change. So could the change have been made? I think
03:56the answer to that is in the negative. It can't be made. You see, I can understand that a full
04:01stop is
04:02missing. So you put in a full stop. OK, that is something inconsequential at the end of the
04:08sentence. But if you're going to add, you know, some one requirement, however, you know, small you
04:15may think it to be. The fact is, it is a change. And that cannot be done. So what you're
04:22saying is
04:22the May, correct me if I'm wrong, the May 2026 judgment of the Supreme Court upheld the SIR
04:28framework. It upheld the Bihar annexure deed declaration. But it did not separately examine
04:36later the changes that were made online to Form 6 that were made mandatory, which asked for your
04:44parents and grandparents details from the last SIR. And you believe that this should have been done
04:51only after requisite government approvals. This could not, this is a statutory change you're making.
04:58It's not part of the residual authority of the Election Commission. Am I correct?
05:03That's right. And today, it appears that the Chief Justice has clarified that they did not,
05:10you know, endorse any change in Form 6. So are you saying that the Election Commission should have
05:16informed the Supreme Court? Because the Election Commission will say they have these residual powers
05:21and those residual powers give them a fair degree of flexibility and autonomy to decide what form
05:28should be, what forms and documents are required.
05:33Yeah, you see, residual powers doesn't mean that you do whatever you feel like doing, you know.
05:38Supposing they said that we have the residual power and we are going to abolish Form 6 and we are
05:43going
05:43to come out with Form 6A. Can that be justified on the ground of residual power? I mean, there is
05:50a
05:51procedure for doing things. You know, you can't say that I have the residual power, so therefore I'll do
05:55whatever I feel like doing. If I want to change Form 6, if I want to change 10 paragraphs in
06:00Form 6,
06:00I do that. If I want to add 20 paragraphs in Form 6, I do that. That's not residual power.
06:06And either way, they should have got central government approval when you make changes of
06:11this kind. Yeah, I think all these required... And notified by Parliament. Yeah, that's right.
06:18You know, there is a procedure that has to be followed. You can't say I've done it, you know,
06:22because I have residual power. I mean, residual power doesn't mean you do whatever you feel like
06:27doing. So where does that leave all those who were left out of the voting, for example, in Bengal
06:33on logical discrepancies or because they could not fill up Form 6? Where does that leave those
06:40during the SR exercise phase 3 who have found it difficult to map where their parents and grandparents,
06:46whether they were part of the electoral rolls and provide proof of that? Do you believe that all of
06:51that needs to be re-looked at, reviewed? Yes, because they have been wrongly excluded, right? Now, what is the
07:01consequence of their wrongful exclusion? That is something which the Supreme Court will have to
07:06decide, okay? What view they take and what submissions are made on this regard is difficult to...
07:15No, because how far Justice Lokur can the courts go? This is in petition that are calling for the
07:20suspension and prosecution of Gyanesh Kumar, the Chief Election Commissioner. How far can the courts go?
07:26They've asked today, please tell us who did these modifications. If the election commission says
07:33that we did it jointly, then what happens? How far can the court go in this matter?
07:39Well, I think it has to go the whole hog. I mean, there's no question about it.
07:43Whole hog? Which means?
07:46Which means that, you know, investigate what exactly has happened. You know, on the one hand,
07:52you know, things have been done. You don't know the consequence of what has been done. You know the
07:59consequence, but you don't know the impact of it, right? And on the other hand, you know,
08:04you turn around and say that, listen, whatever we did was perfectly legal. I mean, you know,
08:13the election commission is not above the constitution of India. So, if they have done
08:20something which is not permissible under the constitution, which is not permissible under
08:24the law, then the Supreme Court will have to do something about it.
08:29Okay. I'm going to leave it there, Justice Lokur. All of this, of course, is coming against
08:35the back of other Supreme Court judges, also former Roenton, Nariman and sitting Justice
08:42Bhuya also raising several questions over the entire SIR exercise. So, clearly, this is now
08:49not just about a political party anymore, but the judiciary itself seems to be raising uncomfortable
08:56questions, which you're saying the election commission has to answer. It cannot run away from.
09:02Yes. Yes. Rajdeep, this is not a political question. This has got nothing to do with politics.
09:09The election commission is an independent body, constitutional body, and it has to answer
09:15the questions that are put to it by the Supreme Court. There's no politics involved in this.
09:21Let me leave it there, Justice Lokur. Good to have you on the show. Thank you very much.
09:25Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
