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Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar has met with Venezuelan President Delcy Rodríguez in New York — a meeting both governments describe as heralding the beginning of a new era in bilateral relations.

The meeting comes after months of tension between Port of Spain and Caracas, including Venezuela's declaration that the Prime Minister was persona non grata. That position has now changed, with the Venezuelan side indicating that Persad-Bissessar is persona grata in Venezuela.

So what does this diplomatic reset really mean for Trinidad and Tobago — and what should we expect next?

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00:15tonight on beyond the headlines it's a significant diplomatic development between trinidad and
00:21tobago and venezuela prime minister kamala pesad besasa has met with venezuelan president delcy
00:28rodriguez in new york a meeting both governments describe as heralding the beginning of a new era
00:34in bilateral relations the meeting comes of the months of tension between port of spain and caracas
00:41including venezuela's declaration that the prime minister was a persona non grata the position has
00:48now changed with the venezuelan side indicated that pesad besasa is a persona grata in venezuela
00:54and the prime minister's address to the united nations general assembly has also placed security
01:00transnational crime and trinidad and tobago's new role on the united nations security council
01:06energy and emerging technologies firmly on the international agenda so what does this diplomatic
01:14reset really mean for tnt and what should we expect next joining me to examine the developments is
01:22international relations expert dr anthony gonzalez dr gonzalez thank you so much for joining us this
01:27evening yes my pleasure thanks so thanks inviting me all righty so let's get straight into it the joint
01:35statement issued by tnt and venezuela it uses the phrase beginning of a new era in bilateral relations how
01:44significant is this meeting really given where that relations between tnt and venezuela were just months
01:52ago yes well it is indeed significant because as you said some months ago uh when um um maduro was
02:01overthrown and um the american government took charge of things there uh the relations were not very good so
02:09that um what we're seeing now is a significant change we are seeing a meeting now between the
02:15heads which we weren't seeing before we saw the president of venezuela meet with the president of
02:21or the prime minister of barbara and the prime minister of venezuela but um she did not come here
02:27and um we have much more in common with venezuela and as a result one would expect that um some
02:35priority
02:35would have been given to us but the meeting only took place now and i think what has happened is
02:40that they have patched up the relations that were strained over a period of time i think uh after maduro
02:47was overthrown we um we continue to criticize um the venezuelan government we went to the summit in
02:56in calcum summits and we argued that venezuela was not a democracy that she was in power at the time
03:03and um you know it would have been a good time to try to start patching up relations i think
03:08but
03:08we were critical i think what probably happened is that we didn't expect that um that she would have
03:14stayed on in power now there was a strange thing happening which none of us predicted and which the
03:18americans did which is they held that they'll see on as active president and everybody expected a
03:24new government to take place in power and the shabby says thrown out but a lot of the shabby says
03:29has stayed there and she has taken charge of the government and as a result we have had to um
03:35build
03:35up relation with her because we were very critical of her but now we have gone past that i think
03:40both
03:41countries realize now that um there's mutual benefit in in their interests and they're seeking now to try
03:48to build up cordial relations i think that she um wants to have a good relation with us just as
03:54we want
03:54to have a relations with them because as you know the people are in terms of our people to people
04:00relationship we are very good with venezuelans as venezuelans are very good with us you know we go
04:05there all the time we have exchanges and so forth and people would like to see good relations between
04:09the countries plus in terms of the economics the trade and everything there's a lot to benefit from
04:14us cooperating together so i think the leaders recognize that and we have now come to terms with it and
04:20they have decided okay they want to go ahead and have cordial relation so we should see an agenda
04:25coming out um in which they will settle what are the issues they want to discuss what are the priority
04:30issues i'm not on the inside so i'm not clear myself of exactly what is up but i have some
04:35insights of what
04:35they might be and we could probably discuss some of that right dr gonzalez before we get into that now
04:42is it important for us to also recall that delci rodriguez she was the one who declared our prime
04:50minister kamra pesad besasa a persona non grata how significant is that and of course what would have
04:58instigated that yes well certainly as i said earlier on our government was very critical of delci rodriguez when
05:08she took power as i said they went to the caricom summit and they continued to criticize venezuela as
05:13they were doing with maduro and i think that probably upset that they'll see a lot and as a result
05:19uh we have we have this person a non-grader thing i think which it was even a bit before
05:23that but you
05:24know um it wasn't listed until now i think because of the fact that we continue to criticize the regime
05:31and say it was not democratic even though it came after the united states had made some kind of agreement
05:36with them in um with them in caracas so now what we are seeing is that a kind of reconciliation
05:42which is coming from the fact that we have uh realized that look um the trump administration is
05:49dealing with chavistas in venezuela and delci rodriguez is the president of venezuela and we have to deal
05:55with venezuela we have to deal with the president so what we what we have saw what we have seen
06:00is that
06:01family and have i said so some some time ago when our foreign minister went there i said that um
06:07we're likely to see a meeting between the two president of their president and our president
06:12soon because it seems that they're willing to patch up relations and you know develop cordial
06:17relations with us there's a lot to be discussed and develop with venezuela if you look at the agenda
06:22what i believe should be agenda we have a lot of to sort out in venezuela we are the next
06:27door
06:27there's a lot is happening here all in the gulf of paria that we need to sort out and then
06:32in terms
06:32of oil and gas and so forth so therefore we need to start talking i think both sides have come
06:37to
06:37realize that let me say also to that i think um the regime in venezuela realizes that things are
06:44changing around them for instance next door also to colombia has become uh a far right a far right
06:51government has taken hold here very pro united states and um they have to deal with that government
06:57as well so that um i think they realize look you know this is the state of the world and
07:02this is what
07:02the region is like we have business to see about venezuela needs to come out of that economic slump
07:08and as well as in a deep economic slump over the years with people running from the country and
07:13venezuela needs to rebuild this economy so it needs to start talking to its neighbors and developing proper
07:18relations with them now dr gonzalez is there any legal standing to persona non grata what exactly
07:26does it mean can you not travel to venezuela what are the parameters no well i guess um it generally
07:35means that um is a diplomatic term which many says that uh we don't regard you as a friend and
07:42you know
07:42we are not dealing with you so that you know when they declared um our president our prime minister
07:48has to send an unvalor this they were indicating that look we don't want to have having any dealing
07:52with you you are very critical of us and so forth and that was it but what they have said
07:58now is that
07:58your your question of that which is your position which is that yeah we have you're glad to deal with
08:03you that is somewhat like saying that you know i love you i love you as we said and um
08:08so that they're
08:10willing to come and sit with us and talk again so which is good you know i think as i
08:13said both sides
08:14have recognized that they need to start talking and this is what we see now we have a lot to
08:19talk
08:19about dr gonzalez does this represent a genuine reset in the relationship or can we better understand
08:26it as the reopening of dialogue and the longer process of rebuilding trust yeah well i think i think
08:35it's a reset in the sense that we have regained trust in each other and we have started uh realizing
08:41that look there's a lot of work to be done for instance the venezuelans even without these meetings
08:45the venezuelans have gone ahead and they have dealt with the multinational companies in terms of supplying
08:52gas to trinidad they have gone ahead and made arrangements with them to supply the gas here
08:56the trinidad so even without that the venezuelans realize that look you know we need to move ahead and so
09:01forth and get over the grievances of the past and develop develop proper cordial relationships
09:06so it doesn't need a quite a change quite a research so that we we can expect that this would
09:11continue
09:11to to to rise this opportunity to go in depth and we're likely to see in many other areas you
09:16know
09:16there's the question of security the question of um trade question of culture question of the
09:23environment and so forth all these areas that you have to deal with to try to ensure that there's good
09:28relations as i said we are right next door to venezuela we can't avoid having to deal with
09:32venezuela as we have done over the years i mean i go back to the colonial times and i could
09:37tell you
09:37there were dictators in venezuela i saw many of them there and uh we dealt with them and we dealt
09:43to them
09:43simply because of that fact even when the british was here the british dealt with them even though they
09:47were dictators because of the fact that we are next door neighbors so we all policy to venezuela has
09:52generally been you know we deal with whoever is there you know we have tried to have good relations
09:57we are not taking sides let the venezuelan people decide who they want to put in power
10:01and then we deal with them that has always been the policy in the past now the joint statement also
10:06speaks about uh the leaders take agreeing to make official visits to both caracas and to port of
10:13spain how important is it that prime minister camelo pisar-bissar is now expected to visit caracas
10:19and of course delci rodriguez is is to visit port of spain yeah well that's important because i think
10:25the meeting in new york is just an opening session you know it's a kind of just uh start where
10:31they
10:32just exchange some cordial or cordial wishes and stuff like that and so forth and said you know so
10:38i don't think they have probably discussed anything in depth i see they refer to an agenda but i don't
10:44know what agenda they have but i suspect that now they have to move to a stage where you develop
10:49a proper
10:49agenda and you have issues very serious to um to discuss for instance the minister of energy i said
10:56that he wanted to take a delegation to venezuela you have a number of economic issues to to discuss
11:02energy is a very important area probably only second uh or probably before um before security so there
11:09are a number of issues that we still have to discuss with venezuelan energy there are things like the
11:12commercial terms of some of these agreements that still have to be worked out there's a question of
11:17whether additional gas can be got from other fields in venezuela we have a lot of gas around venezuela
11:22you see it where for instance when you're flying into trinidad a lot of gas being wasted and so
11:28forth they need to sell that gas in no sense keeping the gas gas is a fossil fuel fuel that
11:33is declining
11:34no sense keeping it and wrong they need to start selling the gas their problem was that they never
11:38sold gas before they never exported it before and it's only some years ago they started now to realize
11:44that look they need to start exporting and they started exporting to us and columbia and so forth
11:47so it's in your interest to start um seeing about these energy issues a number of other things about
11:54investment in energy for example a number of things that ngc can have to have to see about that so
11:59um
12:00while i don't have the agenda in any detail or i can't say it precisely but i i can say
12:05definitely
12:05that there are a lot of energy matters to discuss and i expect that probably an energy team would go
12:09down
12:10for me and discuss with them pretty soon realistic expectations dr gonzalez and and you touched on it
12:16a little bit there but what opportunities could a thought in relations create for tnt's energy sector
12:25yeah well as i said before they have consolidated the dragon gas supply we have also had the um the
12:32cocoina manatee saying which allow the companies to go ahead and really whole thing because they have to
12:37get an approval from there as well as approval from the united states there's also the other one the
12:42um the the manatee laura which um they have agreed to as well and and so forth and we have
12:48to work out
12:48the details of that now some of these things can also get details actually commercial to how much
12:54should be supplied when and all of that sort of things still have to be moved out so there are
12:58some
12:58details there that i'm not clear on myself but they have to be properly discussed and as i said there's
13:03other gas around venezuela venezuela has a number of fields um which are around the what they call the
13:10the delta region the delta platformer region which um could could supply to that and tobago which right
13:17now are not being exploited and we could discuss these these in the future so that um when we look
13:23around you know venezuela has an excess supply of natural gas and they're not really exploiting it fully
13:29and as we have the infrastructure and we have the petrochemical companies we are good base here to
13:34supply that supply that gas a lot of that is around us it's easy to build pipelines because the key
13:39thing
13:39about gas it must be possible to build pipelines the reason that you can't use a lot of that gas
13:45in
13:45venezuela because the distance you have to build pipelines is you have to use it to supply the industrial
13:50tongues and we and cities and all of that it is too far we are right here a lot of
13:54that gas is uh
13:55is right around us so i expect that yes sorry you can go ahead now i said i expect that
14:01further
14:02discussion will go along those lines and there's the content there's a question of oil when he's
14:07willing to go ahead with the united states to uh exploit their reserves the oil reserves a lot of
14:11our reserve and it's really supposed to have the biggest oil reserves we have a refinery here i don't
14:16know what if it takes venezuela it's usually hard crude but if they begin to export oil in venezuela they
14:22may be able possibly to supply us with oil here to uh to use in our refinery years ago actually
14:28we
14:28used to buy oil from venezuela and we used to put it in that refinery so i don't know some
14:33of that may
14:33be possible as well as they begin to develop the oil industry they they need about a hundred billion
14:38dollars to be to start exploiting that those reserves and i think the president of the united
14:44states has promised them that he will get a hundred billion dollars in investment in oil so that they're
14:49looking forward to some kind of major investment in oil to start using these reserves but certainly
14:54that would help i didn't become more i mean who is by venezuela not to mention the fact that a
14:59rich
14:59venezuela is of tremendous help to us because a lot of the migration we see comes from the fact well
15:05because the economy is not working a lot of people have been on um on the bread line and when
15:11they when
15:12things happen like that they leave the country and oil and gas are the major sectors in venezuela if oil
15:17and gas
15:18does well the government gets revenue the government pumps more money into the economy the the target
15:24sector responds by investing more on the economy expands and there's more employment and more people
15:28stay in venezuela as a result so it's in our interest also to see that the venezuelan economy grows and
15:33develops and so forth and and so in a way that will encourage people more to stay to stay there
15:39now dr gonzalez
15:41how integral is the united states or has the united states been in tnt's cooperation with venezuela
15:51well the united states is very important you know for instance we could not get the gas before because
15:56the americans would not give us the uh the ofac license or if they give us the results for a
16:02very
16:02short period so we have to try to convince united states that we need it but we only we couldn't
16:07do that
16:08so long as the americans who against the maduro government you see they wouldn't give out any
16:13license because they don't want anybody dealing with maduro they don't want maduro to get any money
16:17so they were trying to stifle anybody who dealing with maduro except for certain exceptions that they
16:23made to their oil companies to allow them to go in venezuela like chevron and so forth to to to
16:29to
16:29produce oil for american refineries american refineries in the uh in the gulf coast now american has the
16:36refineries which is hemi venezuela so they allow your companies to go in and think chevron is still
16:41there and chevron is going back now i understand chevron is making a big investment back here so the
16:46americans are very important now it is possible once as soon as they got rid of maduro it is possible
16:51to
16:51start dealing with with the venezuelan government and in that context they are willing to approve
16:57the license and allow us to be able to go there and realize we cannot do anything we cannot do
17:02the laura manatee we cannot do the the the cocaina mannequin and the dragon glass you cannot do this
17:09without an american um fat license so that that is what has happened there and as the americans are
17:15back there now it's possible that you know we can collaborate and i would say also to that on a
17:20wider
17:20front in terms of the security issue the americans are going after the drug laws the drug cartels in
17:26venezuela and colombia and in latin america that's a key thing and um we have said here that we want
17:33to get rid of the narco terrorists we want to get rid of the drug cartels and we are collaborating
17:38with
17:38the americans to get rid of that now the americans are uh uh since they got rid of maduro they
17:44have
17:44launched a major program in venezuela and i suspect now too with colombia i think new government in
17:49colombia is very poor american and they're going after these cartels and doctors now we know about that here
17:55because we deal with venezuela and we know what is coming across the gulf of paria a lot of drugs
18:00and
18:00and stuff like that and so forth not to mention contraband and so forth so we have started
18:05collaborating with americans in terms of the drug fight americans have come here train people they
18:10have trained some of our coast guard people and so forth to deal with this yes and so that we
18:15need
18:15that collaboration you know we need to share about venezuela united states and um and and venezuela united
18:23states and us we need to collaborate together in terms of handling that situation let me ask you
18:29directly dr gonzalez is it likely that the u.s president donald trump gave the directive
18:36which directive this is what cooperation new beginnings patch things up well it's hard you know
18:44it's difficult to predict what donald trump does and i i stand to stay away from that because i'm not
18:49short and sometimes you know you hear even his allies say that you would have expected him to do
18:55this and he does the opposite right so you never know what to expect from trump and you have to
19:00be
19:00very careful as i said earlier on nobody expected that that he was going to stay in power but he
19:06decided
19:06that he wanted a government which would more or less do what they did in iraq because as you know
19:12the
19:12problem there was that um they were concerned with the fact that if they put a new government in power
19:17that government may not be able to hold on the country may not be able to keep a stable government
19:22as you see in iraq iraq is still a very stable place after all those years of american intervention
19:27and putting american troops there there's still american troops here but iraq is a very unstable place
19:31so i think they were trying to avoid that so what they did is they negotiated with a team in
19:36the
19:36probably in the military and in the government and they decided okay fine we'll run things up there the
19:43team is collaborating that we have run games quietly the country is stable you still have sharp ministers
19:47who protest and yes but they will put us on the street and so forth in the meantime people will
19:51come and invest and the country will remain relatively stable so it's a kind of realistic
19:55stability they were looking for nobody was looking for that everybody was expecting that they would
19:59probably put my shadow in government or the whole new elections they're still waiting to see when they're
20:04going the whole new election something maybe within a year maybe within two years but that is still
20:09still on the cards so as i said is there risk dr gonzalez that port of spain could find itself
20:17having to
20:17constantly appease washington to maintain its relationship with caracas
20:25not necessarily i think there are areas where we may depart from washington i i see for example that our
20:32prime minister supported the palestinian issue there in the united nations we continue to deal with china
20:38i think even though there's pressure from the americans to to cut relations with china and so
20:42forth but we continue to deal with china so what we are telling the americans as many countries in
20:47latin america have done for instance argentina and brazil and so forth they said yes america yeah we are
20:54with you we are you are our military ally and so forth but we want to deal with china because
20:59we sell
20:59this to china or buy this and finance or we get development finance from china so we want to continue
21:04to
21:04deal with china in spite of the pressure we're getting from the americans to cut relation with
21:08china so i think i think definitely that one has to realize that um you have to have some balance
21:14you can go overboard fully with the americans yes you support the americans and the previous government
21:19has supported the americans they will they work to vary with the americans they've bought the americans
21:24here the americans have always been our our key allies since independence but you need to have other
21:30relation because you know there are things that we can do with the chinese we cannot do with the americans
21:34for instance we know the chinese here we have worked with them they work very um good and and
21:40they have built a number of things here which we cannot build with the americans and we cannot get
21:44any kind of development finance from the americans which we get from the chinese so i want us to work
21:48out that kind of balance and hold on to it and i think this is basically what we seem to
21:53be doing
21:56now ultimately what will you be watching over the next six to 12 months to determine whether this
22:03really is a new era in t and t venezuela relations well as i said there are lots of areas
22:10that we need
22:11to work on for instance if we start as i said the security area there's a lot in here and
22:16i mentioned
22:16the drug cartels and so forth that's a big one but there's also the question of that in the gulf
22:22of
22:22barrier we have the usual contraband we have human trafficking and so forth and you know we have um
22:29venezuelan gangs for instance coming over here and kidnapping people and taking them to venezuela
22:34and so forth we need a collaboration with the venezuelan military and the venezuelan police and so
22:40forth to deal with that and i'm not sure for example to what extent that is working in context of
22:45the
22:45relations we just described so i'm hoping that this would improve things that is we get that
22:50collaboration we even need for instance the venezuelan quadrian national to help us uh you live venezuelan
22:56migrants who come here and that we have to send back to venezuela they have to come for them so
23:00we have to be collaborating with them they would come up and take them as we send them back those
23:04who come there illegally and we are sending back there so we need a good working relationship with
23:09venezuela so that uh i'm hoping that things clear up and at least in that area of security with all
23:14that
23:14there is a lot in that security area to deal with that we could get that going as i mentioned
23:19earlier
23:20on there's the energy issue and a lot there's a lot inside of here that we have to deal with
23:23and i'm looking to see how far we are going with that there are other areas uh protection of the
23:29environment protection of the gulf of paria and things like that we have to collaborate with them
23:35in terms of that as well because we don't want to see the seas being destroyed efficiency being
23:40destroyed and stuff like that we have to regulate that to some extent so that's another area and there's
23:45several others even in the area of culture in terms of cultural collaboration and so forth and
23:50i said this historically we have had that kind of relationship with venezuela we have worked closely
23:54with them and we have we have been able to develop a number of things to them not to mention
23:58as i said
23:59trade is a big issue venezuela becomes becomes a stronger economy over time it will import more we
24:06could go down there we could sell more to venezuela and so forth years ago we used to sell a
24:10lot quite a
24:10bit of venezuela but things change when the service first came things change a bit we used to
24:15sell out quite a bit to them before so we're hoping to sort of bring back that you know a
24:19lot of our
24:19companies can do business with venezuela and some of them may even want to invest in venezuela to try
24:24to promote trade and other things so there's a lot on the table that we have to settle with them
24:29as i
24:29said your neighbors your neighbors are usually the ones you won't be closest with especially small
24:33countries like us we are not basically as small countries with small firms we are not necessarily global
24:40traders we trade largely in the region as you see with carry common with our neighboring uh with our
24:46neighbors and so forth so we need to have a good relationship with venezuela to ready get these
24:50things going now i think just i hear you dr gonzalez there is a lot on the table but if
24:57you had to
24:57identify the first tangible deliverable that we should expect from this new relationship what would it be
25:05i would say the energy sector the energy sector and then probably the set the gas sector i would
25:11say we want to settle these gas issues here and try to promote as much as possible um the supply
25:17of gas
25:17from venezuela and show as i said the commercial team still to negotiate we have to see how we do
25:22this
25:22probably have run all the pipelines to settle this with the foreign companies that is bp and shell have to
25:28be involved with this our ngc have to be involved to some extent to to see because they're the one
25:33you buy the gas and they sell the gas to our petrochemical companies and to the lng plants and
25:38so forth so i think energy is certainly a big one and um there's a lot we are very fortunate
25:44and a lot
25:44of us don't realize of it we are very fortunate to be located next to venezuela with that we have
25:49massive supply of oil and gas that they have there and we have had we have much tried to see
25:54that how we
25:54could best utilize that we cannot expect that with the kind of um petrochemical plants we have all these
26:00big plans we have about seven or seven plans that are closed now for lack of gas and we cannot
26:06expect
26:06that we will have in a small country like this which already has so much oil and gas but you
26:11cannot
26:11expect that we will have all the oil and gas here to be able to supply our lng plants and
26:16our petro
26:16petrochemical plants so i expect that in that collaboration with venezuela i said we are fortunate
26:22that around us but it's a lot of gas it's easy to run pipelines look at the dragon gas what
26:26makes it
26:27dr gonzalez i i hate to interrupt you but we're running a little bit short on time i have to
26:31do
26:31i have to ask you though we know that former prime minister dr keith rowley and former president
26:37nicolas maduro they shared a very close relationship how how it may be premature but how would you how
26:45would you compare that past relationship to what we are seeing now well what we're seeing now still
26:52as they evolve we had a very strong relationship with the previous venezuelan government um we did
26:58not support um remember when they uh um they promoted uh we were promoting one guido as the president
27:05we supported maduro and we have maintained a good relationship you know probably government maintained
27:10a good relationship with him so that um we were able to negotiate a lot of them we got the
27:15um
27:15the license for gas at 30 year license for dragon gas and them and so forth and the relations were
27:20very
27:20good i expect the present situation will now return to something like that it will go back to that and
27:26you know what it was before i will continue to develop here to develop further from that you see
27:31once the venezuela government has turned around and come and could you realize that okay you have to deal
27:36with the americans and you have to deal with the neighbors and so forth and promote good relations and
27:41develop the country there may be an election in a year or two and you want to see the economy
27:46strong
27:46because he should be running again and so forth it is in your interest to work with us to try
27:51to
27:51develop the economy so in that sense i expect collaboration dr gonzalez we've merely scratched
27:57the surface on this this major diplomatic development and this new era in t t venezuela relations i need
28:05to thank you so much dr anthony gonzalez of course he's an international relations expert for sharing both his
28:11time and his expertise you've been watching beyond the headlines it's back to the show