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WENT WRONG AT TSTT?

What exactly is happening inside TSTT?

A former acting CEO is challenging his removal after raising concerns about corporate governance.

The company's board has now launched an independent investigation into allegations involving procurement, contracts and management decisions.

And the Communication Workers' Union is demanding accountability from the company's leadership.

Who is responsible for what went wrong at TSTT?

Joanne Ogeer joins us Beyond the Headlines.
Transcript
00:12The controversy surrounding TSTT has moved well beyond a dispute between management and the
00:18Communication Workers Union. Former Acting Chief Executive Officer Kino Cox is challenging the
00:24Decision not to renew his appointment and his subsequent placement on administrative leave.
00:30His attorneys have raised concerns about what they describe as breaches of corporate governance,
00:36including concerns involving the company's corporate secretary. At the same time,
00:42TSTT has launched an independent investigation into Cox's tenure, examining allegations involving
00:49procurement, corporate governance, conflicts of interest, and a number of commercial arrangements.
00:54The CWU, meanwhile, has called for the removal of TSTT Chairman Kintas, arguing that accountability
01:02should not be focused solely on the former acting CEO. So tonight, we're going beyond the headlines
01:09to examine the governance of TSTT, the decisions being made at the company, and who ultimately
01:15should answer for them. Joining me is Joanne Ogier, General Secretary of the Communication Workers Union.
01:21Thank you so much for joining us this evening. My pleasure, Uvashi. Thank you for having me.
01:25All right. So let's start with Mr. Kino Cox. The public is hearing two very different narratives,
01:32one from Mr. Cox and his attorneys, and another from TSTT and the board. From the union's perspective,
01:38what exactly happened to Kino Cox? So let me just be pellucidly clear. I do not have any authority
01:46to speak on the matter. As a matter of fact, it has never been the union's position to defend
01:52anything that has occurred between TSTT and the company. Our main concern and what should be judged
01:59by the court of public opinion is governance and transparency and accountability. I am unable to
02:06say what has happened between TSTT and Mr. Cox. He who alleges must prove.
02:11You seem to have information, judging from the media briefing you had a few days ago,
02:17that Mr. Cox took a particular file to management. Yes. Do you have, are you in possession of that file?
02:24I have documents contributing to some of the allegations. As a matter of fact, the allegations
02:30are grave and we have documented evidence, yes. Documented evidence meaning emails?
02:37Well, I wouldn't want to say that's on national television, but I will say it's serious allegations.
02:42The serious allegations made, we have documented evidence. And that those would have been allegations
02:47made by Mr. Cox? Yes. Is it coincidental then that he has brought complaints to the board,
02:57then there was a decision made to send him on administratively? So let me answer it this way,
03:03Mr. Cox doesn't report to the union. So I want to just dispel that very quickly because persons would
03:09probably assume that the union is now supporting any wrongdoing or defending Mr. Cox. And I want to
03:16distance the communication workers union from that. However, it's not just Mr. Cox made certain
03:24utterances. Members of management and even staff would have intimated to the union that they are concerned
03:31how the company is going. Now, let me just touch very quickly. You would have heard that we said
03:37for TST, this is to survive, Kerndas must go. This is not a new call. As a matter of fact,
03:44if persons
03:45were paying attention, they would have seen very early in my tenure as Secretary General, I called for the
03:51removal of Mr. Sean Roach. As a matter of fact, he was the predecessor before. And we launched that call
03:58for his removal because he was, well, it was actually akin to the cyber breach, right? And who
04:06misled the then Minister of Public Utilities? So I'm saying that nobody's above the rule of law,
04:13if I want to say that, as pertaining to calling somebody to account. And as it pertains to Mr.
04:18Das, it is nothing personal with Mr. Das, but apparently Mr. Das believes that I probably have something
04:24personal against him. I represent members and employees of TSTT, junior staff, senior staff,
04:32and some professionals, which is outside of the bargaining unit. And I have a responsibility to
04:38my members. And if the governance issues, transparency and accountability affects the terms and conditions
04:44and probably longevity of their jobs. That is my concern. I'm glad you mentioned Mr. Roach because
04:52the, I should say, one of the popular questions nowadays is why didn't the union agitate or complain
04:59nine years before? And that has been such a boring refrain because if persons again go back
05:06nine years, they would have seen, we pound the pavement, we called out ministers, we protested in front
05:12homes. And we didn't give the former administration an easy time, much less this time. But, and that is
05:18what the government, and I'm going to the government, they need to understand. The government work or works
05:25for the citizens. They are counter us, they are accountable to us. We vote in and put them there.
05:29You know, so I don't understand why accountability has become such a, you know, such a daunting task.
05:36So it's our understanding that you would have received a pre-action protocol letter. Was that
05:41connected to the media briefing you had? Yes. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't quite call it a pre-action
05:47protocol letter. It's a nine-page letter stating a litany of issues whereby the company stated that
05:55I would have made certain utterances which may be perceived or inferred to be that I attacked or
06:01tried to assassinate their characters. And I'm speaking about Mr. Das and Ms. Pargas, the corporate
06:07secretary. However, if persons paid attention, close attention, as I said before, I represent
06:14workers at TSTT. I started my press conference on the backdrop where workers, anything that affects the
06:21workers, showing where 2018 and 2022 persons were retrenched, which would, which I then married to
06:27what is happening in the company. So if I call them out on things that they are turning up, allegedly,
06:33turning a blind eye to, I think that falls within the tenets of good and proper industrial relations.
06:39And that is what my questions were based on. Now, during the media briefing and continuously,
06:45you have called on the board, the management, you have also called on the line minister and thereafter,
06:52the prime minister. Who has ultimate responsibility, you know, for ensuring these matters are attended to?
07:02Who does the buck stop with? I like that question, Ravashi. So let me take you back again.
07:08This is not the first time that the Communication Workers Union have asked for a meeting with a
07:14chairman. We met with two chairmans before. This current chairman believes that it's not protocol,
07:21and he believes that, you know, there is a certain reporting level. So we would have an executive
07:28forum. So we would have meetings with the company. And then, you know, you'll go up the chain of
07:33command. So we would have meetings with him. He would report, this is Mr. Cox I'm speaking about,
07:38and the CLT, corporate leadership team. Then they will report to the board, and of course,
07:42the board to the line minister. We didn't ask just for a meeting with Mr. Das initially, just to have
07:48a
07:48conversation or just to complain. We believe leadership, once you're a leader, you have to exhibit
07:56characteristics of a leader. And what we wanted is to just let him know, one, when he came as the
08:02chairman, he has the support of the union. And we wanted him to know, it's supposed to have a
08:09symbiotic relationship with the union and the company. But he refused. He never wanted to meet
08:15with us. And it has always been a strained relationship. As a matter of fact, and I want to
08:19say this on public record, we have a correspondence under the hand of Mr. Kino Cox, giving us a date
08:26where we were supposed to meet with Mr. Das. It was copied to Mr. Das. And Mr. Das said,
08:31he never got the correspondence. As a matter of fact, the line minister did say, and I mean,
08:35if persons research it, they will say, he encouraged the union to meet with the board. It has not
08:41happened. And it has always been, from then to now, a very combative and antagonistic relationship.
08:47You've specifically called for the removal of TSCT's chairman, Kino Das. What does the union believe
08:53he has done or failed to do that warrants his removal? I think, and let me be very candid,
09:01I believe Mr. Das is not, he doesn't understand or appreciate how to survive or evolve in a unionized
09:10environment. I believe he thinks that he is absent from simple relations. What he has also seemed to
09:20be given out to the union is there's supposed to be a certain type of attention, I don't want to
09:26say
09:27the word feeding trough, but there's some type of acquaintance to certain excellence of the organization.
09:35But anything comes to junior and senior staff, he seems to have a very hands-off approach. And let me
09:40be clear in what I'm saying. For instance, and persons that keep, they keep belaboring this 10%, 10%, 10%.
09:47That didn't happen in a vacuum of actually. And I am saying, which chairman could feel proud and say,
09:55I have now declared on behalf of the company the highest profit in 17 years. Know very well that
10:03this is a burning issue. Negotiations outstanding. And you would say, allegedly, no. Why? So the question
10:11begs, what is your reasoning for not wanting to give back to workers who are responsible for that profit?
10:19What is your reasoning to say no to retirees who built this organization? And that is where we can't
10:25go past that. There is no logic in his reasoning to say yes or no.
10:30Do you believe he's the person blocking?
10:31Yes, I do. Yes. Yes. As a matter of fact, and it's just my personal opinion, the executive board and
10:38by extension, the workers of TSCT. Do you have evidence to put to the public to support this position?
10:45That he says no. It would be in the board minutes. I wouldn't speak, you know, in a vacuum like
10:52that.
10:52Mm-hmm. You know, they would have had meetings. And again, the problem that we have in TSCT is the
10:57lack of confidentiality. So I would assume that from the board level, right, if you all are having
11:03certain conversations, they speak as if, you know, outside of the boardroom. So, I mean,
11:10a telecommunications company. So communication, you know, how that skill might be, right?
11:14Yes. Yes. We know about the communications. Does Mr. Das somewhat remind you of a certain
11:20finance minister who would have said zero, zero, zero? I'd rather not comment on that.
11:27Okay. Let's move along because TSCT holds zero comment here. TSCT halted this proposed $49 million
11:35digital first call center solution arrangement with Hummingbird Holdings. That was pending
11:41investigation. So this controversy includes questions about whether the proposal went before the board
11:46and how the procurement process unfolded. About that $49 million call center arrangement,
11:53what concerns do the CWU have about that process? Well, of course, the procurement is one thing. And
12:02again, let me just go back. I was made aware that the approval limit of the chief executive officer
12:09is $6 million, right? I might be wrong, but that was, you know, told to us. And I just found
12:17it
12:17passing strange. And let me stop saying I. We. Right? We find it passing strange that
12:24where, where was there a business case, right? And if there was a business case, business cases don't
12:30happen overnight. So this must have been some type of conversation, some transition period,
12:35as you said, some procurement process. And then, of course, then you hear
12:41nobody seemed to know what is going on. And then there's this investigation. And that is where I have
12:45the issue. You cannot have projects like that or contractual arrangements like that in excess of,
12:53well, that kind of money for $49 million that you are telling me a board wasn't aware or a board
12:58didn't give approval. So who, so, and that's why I'm saying we need to follow the facts. A CEO, and
13:05again,
13:05I'm not, I'm not defending him. I am calling to account what is the process, the transparency and
13:11accountability. A CEO cannot do that on his own. That cannot be a unilateral decision. There must
13:17have been some type of conversation at the board and some type of approval at some point in time.
13:24So you, you would be questioning whether, whether the board, as they claim,
13:28would have been informed of the process? Well, it's a concern. I don't think I have the,
13:33the authority to, to, to, you know, demand anything. But I think it's a legitimate question
13:37that anybody at taxpayer, the union members, even employer employees.
13:42I was going to ask, how does something like this affect workers?
13:45Well, it will affect the employer workers for one, because again, we have been trying to get
13:50recognized majority union status there. And for years, they have been blocking us. And I said,
13:55they as in TSTT, right? And, um, a lot of them came when, you know, I mean, it's understandable.
14:00They would be worrying about their jobs. And a lot of them came and they joined and they were saying,
14:05um, as it sounds now, they don't even enjoy what is supposed to be provided for them,
14:11you know, with good, decent wages and work. But they have been saying that they are,
14:14they are concerned about what will happen to them now. If, and let me just use, um,
14:20local balance, if the deal flops, what happens to their jobs? But more importantly,
14:25you cannot give out this type of uncertainty. It doesn't look well.
14:29So would it be correct to say then that in your opinion, the board has ultimate responsibility
14:35for oversight and the board can't simply distance itself from this management decision?
14:41Yes, definitely. Definitely. Definitely. They are not there for, they're not a ceremonial,
14:45it's not a ceremonial position. They have fiduciary duties.
14:49So, TSTT has now launched an independent investigation examining Mr. Cox's tenure and
14:55the commercial arrangements involving these companies. Does the CWU welcome that investigation?
15:01Of course. What does an independent investigation look like?
15:04And you see, you're taking my train of thought. And again, once there's any form of wrongdoing,
15:13we welcome any type of investigation. However, the word independent, how independent is independent?
15:21And that might be the question now. So we are saying, okay, who is this new company? Who is
15:26the company tasked with doing this investigation? And will it be, um, free from any type of apparent bias?
15:34We don't know. Should the terms of reference also investigate decisions made by the board and
15:41senior management and not just Mr. Cox? Yes, I believe so. Yes. Yes.
15:47Have any details regarding this investigation been revealed? No.
15:52I have no, I have no information. No start date? No. No.
15:55No. And let me just touch a little bit on that. I have no confidence when, especially in TSTT,
16:02when you hear an investigation is going to happen, independent or otherwise. And I want to put this out
16:08there. We have been hearing that there's going to be an investigation into Amplia because of duplicity of
16:15efforts, et cetera. Where is that report? Has it started? Who is the person contracted to do so?
16:21Again, where is the investigation into the fit for purpose report? Where is the investigation into the
16:25cyber inclusion attack? Where are these reports? You understand? So every time we hear investigation,
16:31it sounds good. You would hear it's independent. You would think it's fair. But where are the results
16:37of these investigations? Let's get back to Mr. Cox now. Sure. The union has referred to him to some
16:43extent as a fall guy. If he is found culpable, should he be held accountable? Of course, Savashi.
16:51At the end of the day, as I said, wrongdoing is wrongdoing. And if, as I said, he who alleges
16:57must
16:57prove. If the investigation happens and he is culpable, then he needs to answer for anything. We are not
17:04encouraging wrongdoing. As a matter of fact, I said openly in the press conference that I do not
17:11support sexual harassment. I am a woman leading a union and I do not support it if it's a man
17:18or a
17:18woman. So wrongdoing is wrongdoing. Now, the CW, you would have questioned what it calls executive
17:26proliferation at TSTT. You've raised concerns about the company's executive structure.
17:31What, in your opinion, is actually wrong with the current management structure?
17:34So let me say this. This is not the first time that we have intimated this. We have been speaking
17:40about this ad nauseam. What seems to be happening at the top is the bottom, let me use the bottom,
17:49which is the junior and senior staffers. They have said that it's crowded, overstaffed,
17:56and the operational numbers didn't match. And to save the company, they had to reduce
18:01staff, which they did. But if you look at the salary of an executive, not that I'm going to call
18:08their salary, but I'm just saying the ratio of the salary is probably two or three times one junior
18:13staffer. They have created 10 excess positions at the top. And we are saying, if you are saying that
18:20you have a cash flow issue, and you are saying that the company is not as viable as it was
18:27before,
18:28then how are you justifying these positions?
18:32And again, if you are now saying that you have made profit, is it to say now that there is
18:39no
18:39equity in the distribution? Are you now saying that it's possible, from the echelons of the
18:45organization, they could now be in receipt of profit. But what happens to the engine room, which is the
18:50junior and senior staffers? There is no equitable balance in the organization. And before I think,
18:58the topic, the hot topic is, some of these positions at the top, what the union is questioning,
19:07not so much the qualifications, but the entry. Yes, they may be advertised. I have no issue with
19:14it being advertised. But they are political appointments. And I make no apologies for saying that.
19:21Also, at the press conference, you know, you cited one particular position. We're not going to call
19:27anyone's names. But I think it was chief marketing officer. And you seem pretty sure that someone
19:34was being ushered into that post. Yes. Do you have evidence? Yes, I do. To back up? Yes, I do.
19:40Not
19:40just the CV as you claimed? I do. I do. So you're telling us that person was going to get
19:47that job? What
19:56the person was on their way into TSCT. And they wouldn't be the first. And I don't think they
20:01will be the last. Do you believe by speaking about it, you halted that process? Well, it's not about
20:06halting because I don't think they listen anyhow. If they want to bring in the person, they'll bring
20:11them in. So I think now the public now should see if the person comes in, is it the union
20:16were casting
20:16just wireless persons or if it was really factual? It's not about halting anything. It's about, again,
20:23calling persons to account. It's wrong. You could apply for a job, Urvashi. But again, I'm saying this,
20:29there are persons in the organization are being bypassed. They are persons permanently employed
20:35and poised for the position and qualified. So why are you not looking internally? Was that position
20:40advertised? Yes, it was. And they use these, well, it's a position which is executives. So it's the
20:46HRC, I think it's our website or so. Yes. And persons from TSCT would have seen it and applied.
20:53Well, that's the thing. They would apply, but they don't get shortlisted.
20:57They wouldn't get shortlisted because 99.9% of the time, they have somebody already for the
21:03position. That's the raw truth. That's the raw truth. And of course, you know, when the minister
21:11did respond to your press conference, we sent him questions. He did respond. I'm not sure that you
21:15have sight of his response. How would you respond to what he said? Well, um, Minister Padarat, I think,
21:22um, what Minister Padarat seems to, um, be doing is deflecting. And I would try to leave it as that.
21:29What do you want him to do differently?
21:34Um, be less biased, you know, and sometimes just, just, just listen. Has he met with a union? I was
21:42about to say that. We would have written to him twice that I could recall. He has never acknowledged
21:48the correspondence. He has not responded. And I don't expect him to, because I think he, again,
21:53he may feel that, you know, we are a bunch of rabble-rosers and, you know, he may just discount
21:59the need for a meeting. And if you had the opportunity tonight to sit across the table,
22:04um, from the TSTT board, the public utilities minister, what is one question you believe they
22:09still have not answered? What they have not answered, um, is TSTT profitable? What attribute it to the
22:17profit? And why is it that workers cannot benefit from this profit? Being, being stakeholders
22:26in the organization and contributors to the profit? Finally, 10 seconds. The SOE is about to end. Can
22:31we expect the CWU to be pounding the pavement again? Of course. And what will be that key issue that
22:37you'll
22:37be calling the government to account for, the state TSTT? Transparency, accountability,
22:43accountability. Thank you very much. And treating the members better, the employees better. Thank
22:47you very much. Well, the controversy surrounding TSTT has now raised fundamental questions about
22:52corporate governance, accountability, and the relationship between management, the board,
22:57and government. With an independent investigation now underway and legal action being threatened,
23:02not just threatened, but being taken by former acting CEO Kino Cox, there are still significant
23:08questions about what happened and who ultimately bears responsibility. Joanne Ogier, General Secretary
23:15of the Communication Workers Union, thank you so much for joining us. It was my pleasure.
23:18I'm Urvashi Tawari Ruknarain. Thank you for watching Beyond the Headlines. It's back to Disha after the break.
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