00:10Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris.
00:12Let's continue our conversation about Cisfora Malaysia's report on bodily autonomy
00:17and women's lived realities in making decisions about their own bodies.
00:22Joining me now is Dr. Vilashini Sumaya,
00:24who is a Senior Lecturer with the Gender Studies Program
00:26at University of Malaya's Faculty of Arts.
00:30She's also a Visiting Fellow at the University of Ottawa, Canada
00:33and the current Chair of the Southeast Asia Council
00:37at the Association for Asian Studies in the US.
00:41Vila, it's good to have you back on the show with me.
00:44Now, the Cisforum findings, let's talk a little bit about that.
00:48When you look at the report, what strikes you the most as an anthropologist?
00:54Hi, Mel. Thanks so much for having me.
00:56I'm really grateful for being here.
00:58So, you know, I think what struck me the most about this report
01:01is it really puts to numbers what a lot of researchers have learned
01:07through years and years of fieldwork, right?
01:09We spend a lot of time listening to people's everyday lives.
01:14And essentially, this report really captures something really very important,
01:19that bodily autonomy really isn't just about making major decisions as a woman.
01:25It's negotiated in everyday life, right?
01:28So, with your family, with your partners, healthcare providers, with strangers.
01:34I have to say the one thing that I really appreciate is that the report doesn't present women in a
01:41single group.
01:42I think it acknowledges that experiences really differ from the intersection of race,
01:48your income, your, you know, your class, your level of ability or disability.
01:55And, of course, as a researcher, I would...
01:58The honest truth is there's still a lot of space for improvement when it comes to this report.
02:02But I am very hopeful in seeing a future where surveys like this are able...
02:11Or research like this is able to reach much larger, much more diverse samples of women and men,
02:20especially those from rural communities or groups that are not often represented.
02:25This gives us a much richer picture.
02:28So, what I found really interesting, particularly, is this whole notion of intergenerational messaging.
02:35I think it's important for us to recognize that we assume because younger women are so much more exposed to
02:42social media,
02:43they are automatically more empowered.
02:44But really, what we see from the report is that it suggests it's so much more complicated than that.
02:51Younger women may be able to speak in a language of rights and equality because they're exposed to it.
02:57Because of social media.
02:59And yet, many still describe bodily autonomy in terms of being, you know, things like a good wife,
03:06a good partner, prioritizing a husband's needs.
03:10And I think this really tells us gender norms don't disappear.
03:15They evolve.
03:16They continue to be passed on from one generation to another just differently.
03:20I love that you said that bodily autonomy should be viewed in how it's negotiated in everyday life decisions.
03:27And there are multiple, quote-unquote, stakeholders involved in these decisions.
03:32Vila, talk to me about that.
03:33Because bodily autonomy is often framed as an individual choice.
03:37What the agency that the woman has to make the decision.
03:41But how do you view that?
03:44How do you distinguish what is kind of a genuine choice versus a choice that is shaped by other, quote
03:51-unquote, stakeholders,
03:52by social pressure or even unequal power?
03:56I think you raise a really good point here.
03:59I think we have to be very careful not to reduce bodily autonomy to just, you know,
04:05simply asking, was a woman able to choose something, right?
04:09And what we learn is that choice is always made in a very social context.
04:15So, for me, genuine choice has to exist when someone has accurate information.
04:22They have access to meaningful alternatives.
04:25And very, very importantly, they can make decisions without any fear of violence or shame.
04:32Another very important thing is financial hardship.
04:35Money is a very important thing to consider here.
04:37And lastly, support.
04:39You can make a decision without losing support of your family, your loved ones.
04:44So, if you say no to something out of the context of bodily autonomy, but it comes with serious consequences,
04:52then we have to ask how free that choice really is.
04:56So, it doesn't mean that women don't have agency.
04:59Of course, they do.
05:00Women are incredibly resourceful.
05:02We know this, right, when it comes to navigating difficult situations.
05:07But I need to caution people who are trying to understand this, that agency and freedom are not the same
05:13thing.
05:14Many women make the best decisions within the systems that they are placed within.
05:21And it still expects them to prioritize everybody else's needs before their own.
05:27Talk to me about the intersectionality you mentioned a bit earlier in the conversation.
05:31When we look at the report was really quite good in breaking down some of these different experiences of women,
05:38according to income and race and disability and age and where they live.
05:43Why is that important, Vila?
05:45That we acknowledge and recognize that women don't all experience autonomy the same way?
05:53Quite honestly, I think this is where I want to give kudos to the report.
05:58I think this is the strongest part about it.
06:01There's really no such thing as a universal experience when it comes to being a woman,
06:07especially when it comes to being a woman in Malaysia.
06:09A young woman in KL differs from, you know, has a completely different life from an indigenous or orang asa
06:16woman in Sabah and Sarawak.
06:18A woman living with disability or any kind of disability or disease or an older widow, right, who has her
06:25own challenges.
06:25So I think we have to recognize that even when we are talking about the same issue within bodily autonomy.
06:32And, you know, what I often teach my students is that gender doesn't exist on its own.
06:38It's really shaped by our different classes and ethnicities and geographies and disabilities and religion and age.
06:46And I think what often happens is that when we end up, oftentimes when we talk about policy being made,
06:54these differences are ignored simply because we tend to create policies based on the experience of the most visible of
07:02the women.
07:03We gather the ones that we see the most and those who and we kind of neglect the ones that
07:10face the greatest barriers.
07:11We are only as strong as our weakest link and recognizing diversity isn't about dividing women into these categories, right?
07:20It's really about recognizing that no one gets left behind.
07:23And I think this is why this report was so important.
07:27It's about pointing out these very important nuances.
07:30So where do we go from here?
07:32This is a great, you said this is a great starting point.
07:34We've got it now on paper what's happening and maybe there is a chance for progress to be made.
07:43Where do you think the real change could happen?
07:47Where is our chance for progress, Yavila?
07:49Well, you know, as always, you and I have had this discussion multiple times.
07:54Real change always begins in conversation.
07:56But in this case, it has to be conversation that is backed by evidence, is backed by data.
08:02So why a report like this matters, even though there's still so much room for improvement, is because it moves
08:09us beyond everyday assumptions.
08:11It gives us a much clearer picture of how women are experiencing bodily autonomy across different stages of life.
08:19But of course, I need to be very clear here that evidence alone isn't enough.
08:25We really need these conversations to be taking place in places that we don't often see them happening.
08:32Think about families, schools, you know, for example, even amongst religious circles, your healthcare professionals, and not just policymakers.
08:43I think by the time it reaches policymakers, it should have been conversations that have been held multiple times with
08:49different circles of people.
08:52So I think ultimately, the messages we pass down at home really matters as much as, you know, laws that
09:00we pass in the parliament.
09:01But one thing the report reminds us is that change isn't simply about giving women more choices.
09:07I need to stress this.
09:09It's also about changing the conditions that shape choices.
09:14So if young women continue to grow up believing that being a good woman means that you put yourself or
09:20putting themselves last and always pleasing others, then this is immaterial.
09:25We still have a lot of work to do.
09:27And these attitudes may appear progressive on the surface, but really, it doesn't help in the long run.
09:33So I think ultimately, the question shouldn't be why don't women choose differently?
09:38I think the question really is, what kind of society are we creating so that some choices that make some
09:46choices genuinely possible and clearly others very difficult?
09:50Vila, thank you so much for being on the show with me today.
09:53Dr. Vila Sinish Somaya there wrapping up this episode of Consider This.
09:57I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
09:59Thank you so much for watching and good night.
10:01I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
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