Faith After the High Control Church: Rebuilding What You Believe | Christian Arce

Name: Faith After the High Control Church: Rebuilding What You Believe | Christian Arce | Episode 687
Uploaded: 2026-08-22T08:21:28+00:00
Duration: 54 min 1 s
Channel: William Branham Historical Research

00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:40at william-branham.org.

00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Christian Arce, former charismatic in Latin America.

00:48Christian, it's good to be back and to tackle this very difficult subject that you've given

00:53me.

00:53You know, it's one that people have requested.

00:56It's one that I don't go there too often because actually it's a little painful for me to talk

01:03through it.

01:03I don't know about you, and we'll get into that as we talk.

01:06But when you leave the high-control church, there is this painful journey that you go on.

01:12And the question that people ask, and I'll ask it right now, is how do you keep your faith

01:17while you're leaving the high-control church?

01:20And I'll admit, it's very, very difficult, especially if you're in one of the more destructive

01:26ones like I came out of.

01:28Every single aspect of the Bible was taught incorrectly, right down to the plan of salvation.

01:35In fact, whenever I left what we came out of and we went to a new church, they were explaining

01:40the plan of salvation.

01:41And I said, no, you guys are wrong.

01:42And then he opens up the Bible to the New Testament.

01:44He reads it like almost a verbatim, and I'm like, oh, man, how did I miss that?

01:49That's like the most important part of Christianity.

01:52So your view of what Christianity is is wrong.

01:56And then you're grasping at straws, trying to hold on to your faith.

02:00But what you're grasping to hold on to usually isn't actually your faith.

02:05It's the cult indoctrination.

02:07So with that, I'll let you introduce it.

02:10But this is a topic that has been requested quite a bit.

02:12Yeah, I've seen a trend that it's called like faith deconstruction.

02:19The problem that I've seen, at least on the surface, because I don't believe it in essence,

02:26it's the wrong thing.

02:28I think that you should be able to go very and to be very honest with your faith and examine

02:36what you believe and just examine if that's true according to the Bible or if it's just

02:43something that somebody else told you.

02:46The problem that I've been watching lately is that a lot of famous people started saying

02:53that, hey, I used to be a Christian, and now I went to a faith deconstruction process,

03:00and I am not a believer anymore.

03:03And yes, that is a risk.

03:06Part of it, at least in my case, and we were joking previously about this, is that you get

03:14so bitter when you understand that you have been part of a cult or a denomination that was

03:22not entirely correct, and maybe you spent many, many years working there and making your entire

03:30life and building your identity around this set of beliefs, and that it gets really hard

03:40and painful to go back and just realize that a lot of the things that you used to believe

03:48were wrong.

03:49So that is the most painful part of a process, and we're going to discuss some of the things

03:56that it implies later on.

03:58However, I think that, yes, out of that bitterness that it can produce and out of that pain and

04:06grief, a lot of bad things can come out, but if you do it in the right way, it will

04:12be the

04:13one thing that will save your life.

04:15You know, I've had this conversation with multiple people from multiple high control groups who

04:20have escaped, and I'm one of the people that I'm very open whenever I have an opinion, and

04:27I'm very open to a difference in opinion.

04:29So, in my opinion, there are certain people that really have to deconstruct, but in the

04:36cases that I have spoken to some of the people in the high control groups, they're right on

04:41the edge of maybe they really don't need to.

04:44So, here's the example that I gave on one of the podcasts recently.

04:48It's like the Jenga game where you pull the blocks out.

04:52Say the entire base is correct.

04:54You have the plan of salvation correct.

04:56You have grace.

04:57You have all of these things correct, but you bolted on top of it spiritual warfare and

05:02some of the Gnar stuff.

05:04Well, the base is correct, and you can kind of replace the pieces at the top, but what

05:08if the foundation is wrong?

05:10What do you do with this?

05:12And I have been in situations where I've been dealing with people who have escaped, and

05:17their entire core is wrong, as was mine.

05:21And what you try to do is you try to do the Jenga thing at the top, and you're replacing

05:25pieces up here, and they never fit because the base is incorrect.

05:30And there came a point in my life whenever we were – so, I left the high demand group

05:37that we were in, the Branham cult, and I started entering into mainstream Christian churches,

05:42and I told my family, I'm leaving a Christian.

05:44I am not giving up on God, I'm giving up on Branham.

05:48That's what I told my family.

05:50Here's the problem.

05:51When you're in a very highly destructive group, leaving the church to them is leaving Christ.

05:58And so, we were taught – I was taught that I was leaving God.

06:02And what do you do with this?

06:04You leave, and immediately that question goes in your head, and you're thinking, am I really?

06:08Am I really leaving God?

06:09So, what I did was I took the journey away from the cult into the church, and I tried

06:16to rebuild what I had and build it back correctly.

06:20And there came a point, it took me about a year, two years, I realized that I was never

06:25going to fix my foundation.

06:26It was just so vastly wrong.

06:29And so, I'll never forget the look on the minister's face.

06:33I took him out to lunch one day, and I said, okay, I'm messed up.

06:37I am totally wrong in so many things.

06:41I'm going to start with a clean, white slate.

06:44I know nothing.

06:45Teach me Christianity.

06:47They're scratching their head.

06:48What?

06:49What did John just say?

06:51That's really how I did it.

06:52I started from square one.

06:54You believe the virgin birth?

06:55Why do you believe it?

06:56So, then they talk about that.

06:57You believe Jesus died on the cross?

06:59Why do you believe it?

07:00And I just went through the basic fundamentals that every Christian should go through.

07:04And what I was doing was I was building back to the Jenga blocks.

07:07I was building it back up from the core.

07:09So, for me, it was so wrong, I had to deconstruct.

07:13However, we've had guests on the podcast who, their core was kind of right.

07:19Some of them actually were even in mainstream churches and got sucked into NAR and then escaped.

07:25Well, you can just take that little piece off the top that's wrong, and you can build from

07:28your base.

07:28So, all of this to say, I think it's not a yes or no thing.

07:34It's a broad spectrum that you have to deal with.

07:37I totally agree with that.

07:39It's funny because in Costa Rica, it would be real interesting to ask many questions to many

07:48people regarding that because it feels like, let's say you're living a church because this

07:56is so NAR and it's obviously wrong in some of their teachings and the worship is based

08:04on experiential Christianity and more in the New Age thing than just a true worship, right?

08:13But then you would leave and the question will arise.

08:16Well, where will I leave?

08:18Because everything is pretty much the same nowadays.

08:22Like this, uh, going into the unknown thing, it's, it's one of the, of the worst thing that

08:30can happen because you kind of have to be prepared to face the same issues everywhere.

08:38And, uh, my, my answer to that was actually, uh, my therapist told me this, uh, at some point

08:47and she said, Hey, Chris, you know, the very first thing that God gives you when you know

08:55that he exists, when you have an encounter with him, his freedom, why would you want to

09:03be bounded to anything else than him after that?

09:08And whatever puts in on your shoulders, any kind of, uh, slavery, that's not going to come.

09:18It's not coming from him.

09:20So that's my, my key thought to start, uh, the, the, the podcast.

09:27Well, even though we have a few moments talking now for minutes, but yeah.

09:33The first thing is God will give you freedom.

09:38Why wouldn't you want to, uh, lose it being part of one of those groups, uh, on high control

09:45group?

09:46And that is in some cases what awakens the, the person.

09:52Absolutely.

09:53In the group that we came out of, there was a core doctrine that had entered into the healing

09:58revivals.

09:59So this would have been broader than just Branhamism, but we heard it very clearly in

10:03Branhamism that a Christian must forfeit their rights.

10:07I heard that over and over.

10:09There was these sermons talking about it.

10:10In other words, we're going to ask you to get rid of your freedom and we're going to

10:14tell you what to do.

10:16That when you, when you start to hear this, you're in a high demand group because they

10:20are demanding that you obey their rules.

10:23And that's not really how Christianity is.

10:26Whenever I started to learn the basic fundamentals of Christianity after I left the church and

10:32started going to new churches, it was more of a come as you are mentality.

10:37Because if you try to impose rules like this, how are you going to attract the sinner?

10:41They're going to say, well, no, I'm not going to forfeit my freedom and you can never even

10:44spread the gospel like this.

10:46So even logically, it doesn't make sense.

10:48What I came to realize is that type of mentality where you're forfeiting freedom is not to spread

10:54the gospel and grow the church.

10:56It's to corral those who might escape.

10:58So it's really a container.

11:00That's all it is.

11:01What happens if that very thing that you just said is the same thing that is happening in

11:09any church, but nobody is openly saying like that, saying it like that.

11:16Because at the end of the day, you're going to get involved in church serving, as we call

11:21here in Costa Rica is a very common term.

11:25It's servidores or just basically the people that have some kind of responsibility within

11:33the church.

11:35They will ask you to do something and you're going to do it in the best way you can because

11:39you're serving God.

11:40But what's going to happen is that you're doing it so good that somebody else is saying,

11:44oh, he has potential.

11:46Let's give him this responsibility as well.

11:49And sooner than later, you're going to be 24 seven there with a lot of responsibilities

11:55and forfeiting your freedom at the end of the day.

11:58But yeah, I totally agree with you.

12:01And it's something very common and nobody, well, not a lot of people seems to know that

12:07nowadays.

12:08And I noticed I've scanning through the notes that you sent me.

12:12I noticed this one.

12:13This is one of the most important ones that I have not ever talked about on this podcast,

12:18but it is in leaving.

12:20It is part of your journey that you must embrace.

12:22And that is all of the fear that's going to come, the guilt, the second thoughts, the

12:28doubts.

12:29I mean, you could almost spin off a new podcast entirely on that one subject that you added

12:34to this.

12:35Totally.

12:36Think of this.

12:37So I have children and children go through phases, especially when they turn into their

12:42teenage years.

12:43If you have boys like I do, it's pretty hard.

12:46There comes a point whenever they're going through the changes in life internally and

12:53they're adjusting to now becoming a young man and they get a little headstrong.

13:00And sometimes if they're very emotional, some kids will say, you're not my father.

13:06And they'll just say things like this.

13:08They'll question you.

13:09They'll do all of these things.

13:11Does it mean that they're not my son?

13:13And the first time that that happened when we were out of the cult, I thought my world

13:20had crumbled because we were in a weird fantasy world where you cannot question anything.

13:27You cannot doubt.

13:29If you do, we've talked about this, you and I, unbelief is sin in the group.

13:33They don't allow you to think.

13:36So by that same logic, I would have to tell my son, okay, you're not welcome in my house

13:41ever again.

13:41And get out.

13:42You're no longer my son because I'm going to cut you off.

13:45That's what a cult or high demand group does.

13:47But what you do as a father, you say, no, I love you.

13:50I am your father.

13:52You can go through these things and I'll help you go through it.

13:55Well, think of you as a Christian leaving something so horrific.

14:00You're going to be emotional.

14:01You're going to think things that you wouldn't normally think, do things you wouldn't normally

14:05do, and if you're a Christian when you leave, or even if you're not, you have to believe

14:12that if there is a God, he's not going to be this – I almost used a four-letter word.

14:18It's pretty bad what they train you to do in these groups.

14:22If you believe in a God that's that evil, it's not really the God of the Christian Bible.

14:27I'll just say it like that.

14:28It's a God that is a different God that you really don't even want to serve.

14:32So for me, that is part of the journey.

14:35You have to embrace it.

14:36Like you said, it becomes one of the things that will decide how you grow later, how you

14:44handle the journey, how you handle the fear, the guilt, all of these things.

14:48That is going to determine how successful you are, and if you embrace it, you have a strong

14:53chance for success.

14:54Yeah.

14:55One of the things that I would say very openly is that killed may be the results of years of

15:01conditioning, and as simple as it sounds.

15:06The problem is that everything you are, everything you think has been permeated some way or another

15:14by the idea of God somebody else have.

15:20So it implicitly changed your perspective, and yes, you're going to be fearing that you're

15:29doing the wrong thing, you were, you're going to have second thoughts just as a hand as any

15:36human would have, because you don't have to punish yourself, you know, because you're having

15:43second thoughts or, uh, and I would think actually that it is the perfect opportunity for you to

15:51learn if you, if you, if what you believe is right or wrong, because anytime you have a

15:57second thought about something, try to find the root of what it is.

16:03Maybe it is, it's a doctrinal, uh, foundation that is wrong.

16:08Maybe it's a relationship thing where you believe that if you are not part of this group, uh, it's

16:17like the us versus them, right?

16:19It, we are the ones who have all truth.

16:23The rest of the people have no idea how this thing is or how faith works or who God is

16:30because

16:31they're wrong.

16:32So we are right.

16:33They're wrong.

16:34Therefore, if you go outside this group, you're going to be wrong as well.

16:39Yeah.

16:40That black and white mentality.

16:41That's another thing.

16:42That's part of the thing that's fueling the fear and the guilt is you realize once you

16:47get into the real world, that there's not really many things that are black and white.

16:51You go back to the 10 commandments, thou shalt not kill.

16:55Well, what if you were in a war and the people of the enemy forces are coming to attack your

17:01wife and children?

17:02Are you going to step up and fight the battle?

17:05There were Christians who during the world wars, they did not do that because very black

17:11and white, it's, it's a black and white mentality.

17:13We will not fight.

17:15And I'm not going to argue or debate whether that was right or wrong.

17:19But the point I'm making is not everything is black and white.

17:22There are usually situations that you have to think through.

17:25And when you go through that, suddenly you realize that my black and white world didn't

17:32really exist.

17:33We just pretended that it did.

17:35And everything that they told us that we must do, it really was not for my good.

17:40It was for their good.

17:41And let's do just a pretty simple exercise here.

17:46I'm going to ask you a question.

17:47What is bigger?

17:49Any congregation here on earth or God?

17:52That answer is very simple.

17:55Yeah, of course.

17:56So why should we think that our protection or our safety comes from a congregation, a church

18:07or a group, if we know and understand that God is above everything?

18:12So, you know, there's, uh, that is a really simple answer.

18:18But for somebody who's escaping or leaving a congregation or high control group or any kind

18:26of, uh, denomination where there's this things happening, it's amazing, but it's a really

18:32common thing to feel.

18:34You're going to feel that you don't have any support, that you have no covering, that

18:40the devil's going to get you and he has power over you because you decided to leave.

18:45That's pretty much how it feels.

18:46The next thing that you had in the list is something that I never really thought about

18:52while we were in the movement that we came out of.

18:55So in the modern New Apostolic Reformation, there's this concept of a spiritual covering

18:59and you have to submit to a leader and the leader gives you the covering.

19:03There's, there's a lot of weird doctrines out there.

19:05We actually looked down on those types of doctrines.

19:08We thought that this was crazy.

19:10At the same time, we had it.

19:13If you were part of the group, you were under the covering.

19:16You're under the blessing.

19:17If you weren't part of the group, you weren't part of the blessing.

19:21And they took it a step further.

19:22If you were not a Christian, you might be, you might even be a Buddhist.

19:28If you were a Buddhist and you were kind to somebody who's under that covering, they too

19:33might make it into heaven because they were kind to us.

19:36So it's this weird thing where salvation really meant nothing.

19:40What Jesus did on the cross meant nothing to the people.

19:42I had that mentality because I was under the shelter of the high control group.

19:48After I left and I discovered that, wait a minute, what we had is very eerily similar

19:54to all of these new charismatic churches.

19:57I took it a step further.

19:58I wanted to know, well, how far does that go?

20:01And so I started looking beyond the New Apostolic Reformation.

20:04That's part of what drove me through the Pentecostal journey of studying all of the Pentecostal

20:09extreme groups, and in many of the extremist groups, it's the same way.

20:14If you're part of our group, you're under our covering.

20:16If you're not part of our group, you're not.

20:18Well, once you leave and you're no longer under that covering, oh, my gosh, the fear

20:23that hits you is instantaneous.

20:26You feel like you have just stepped out into a body of water.

20:30The ship has left you and you're swimming with the sharks.

20:32Yeah, yeah, I 100% agree with you because there was a time where I left one specific

20:40church and I went to another just in the meantime.

20:45There were some friends that I have in this other congregation, and I needed this time just

20:53to think and to understand what just happened.

20:57And when I left the first church, I had this feeling of, oh, my God, I am alone.

21:05I'm like, what is this?

21:08I'm surrounded by my family and I still have friends from that specific church, but I feel

21:16so lonely.

21:17It's so weird that probably only if you have ever experienced that, you know what I'm

21:24talking about.

21:25The problem is that we tend to see things like if this is happening and this is how I

21:34feel, that must be the product of me leaving God or being away from God.

21:40And that is, of course, coming from the experiential Christianity where you based everything you

21:48do and everything you think on how you feel, which is, of course, wrong.

21:54But over time, you realize that, hey, after all, Moses was in the desert alone by himself, right?

22:07So you don't need to be surrounded of people and you don't need to be in a congregation to

22:13have a wonderful relationship with God.

22:17And this fear of being alone in your faith is coming from from maybe a different perspective

22:26that you were taught.

22:28And I agree with you.

22:30Anybody of believers will be a great thing for you once the time is right.

22:38Because if if you just jump from one to the other again, I mean, the second church that

22:44I was visiting, I was there for a time.

22:47I was not intending to be like, like, OK, so that's going to be my my church, my congregation.

22:55I made friends and everything.

22:57But I knew that I was going through a process and I was actually grieving a lot of the things

23:04that happened at the first one.

23:06And the only thing that I'll say to that is I differ from some of my peers in that I

23:11don't

23:11think that everyone immediately enters into the right time to enter a new church after

23:18they've left their previous church.

23:19I believe that some people are so bruised, they really have to take a step back and just

23:23heal first and then try to try to join a church.

23:27It's much like if you were in a situation where you were a spouse and your spouse was

23:32abusing you.

23:33If you go to your therapist, they will tell you don't immediately start dating again,

23:36because every face that you see is going to be the face of the man who hit you.

23:40Yeah.

23:40And I'll I'll go deeper than that.

23:43Probably you're going to choose the same people, the same mindset in a different people

23:46and in a different person.

23:47It's the same with churches.

23:49churches, you're so used to it that the one thing that will make you feel right is pretty

23:55much the same pattern again.

23:57Absolutely.

23:57It's a it was very painful for me.

24:00Even still today, I I have learned that church was made for me, not me made for the church.

24:07And that's the opposite of the mentality that you're trained when you're in the high demand

24:10group.

24:11The high demand group will tell you that you were made to serve the church.

24:14Well, there's nothing in the Bible that says this just simply does not exist.

24:19And so when I realized that my world kind of lightened my load that was on my shoulders

24:25lightened because if I feel if I feel safe, if I feel secure, I'll go if I feel like this

24:31is really going to be painful.

24:33If I go, I don't go.

24:34I have a question for you.

24:37Another one.

24:37I've been asking a lot of questions to you lately, so you told me something about the

24:46inner child in one of our previous podcasts.

24:49And one of the things that happened when you're on a high control group is the last stuff connection

24:56with oneself.

24:57So that, uh, of course the inner child and everything, but use top leaving for yourself

25:05and start leaving for the church, for the group, for the pastor, for your disciples, for

25:11everyone, but you.

25:13And, uh, at the end of the day, and I remember this was so common within church, people were

25:20tired, like you would ask any leader, uh, you would ask any pastor and, and just, Hey, how

25:30are you?

25:31Oh, brother, I'm tired.

25:33And it's, it's funny because at the end of the day, service to God was done in such an

25:44extreme way that neglects oneself.

25:48So that is a huge problem.

25:51And, and that is because one of the, uh, topics that I have on the list is who will I

25:58become

25:58after I leave?

26:00Because the one thing that you should do is try to reconnect with yourself.

26:06And you also said something that whatever you like to do, whatever, whatever you like to

26:13hear music or movies or whatever, that's from the devil.

26:16You should not do it.

26:17Uh, and of course, you know, your group was really extreme.

26:22Uh, nowadays it's not so hard in, in Costa Rica.

26:27I remember when, and when it was like a sin, if you dance or if you listen to any kind

26:34of

26:34music, there is not, uh, 100% Christian worship, right?

26:40Uh, but yes, you lost the connection to yourself because you're trying to live a life so godly

26:48that you will neglect his own creation, which is you.

26:54We were told that all music that wasn't the old timey Christian music was of the devil and

27:00especially the Beatles.

27:01The Beatles were number one because remember, I grew up hearing recordings from 1947 and

27:071965.

27:08Beatles was like public enemy number one among all the evangelicals back then.

27:13So I grew up in a world where Beatles was public enemy number one.

27:17And one of the first things that I did when I was able to conquer the fear was I went

27:22and

27:22I got the collection of the Beatles greatest hits and I listened to it.

27:27But I made myself listen to it.

27:29I actually didn't like it at first.

27:30I do now, but I didn't like it then.

27:33But the first thought that came in my head won't resonate with any of the younger crowd

27:37today.

27:38The older people will know what I'm talking about.

27:40Back whenever I was a kid, when you go into the elevator, they played what's called elevator

27:43music.

27:44And it's this old, calm, soothing, not, not too exciting music, humdrum music.

27:51That's the thought that went through my head.

27:53When I heard the Beatles, I was like, what is this?

27:55This, this, this is like elevator music to me.

27:59Now I have progressed.

28:00I listened to other music.

28:01If you look at my Spotify collection, it's literally everything from classical music to

28:06jazz.

28:07I, I do not like rap.

28:08I don't know if I can make myself like rap, but I do like, um, I like a wide variety

28:13of

28:13music and that's a new freedom that I never had when I was in the group.

28:17You know, it's, it's those little things that you lose over time that keeps adding one

28:23to, to the other.

28:25And at the end, uh, you, you, you lose your identity because you're becoming something

28:31else.

28:31And, uh, I agree with you that there's a lot of things that when you come to, to Christ,

28:39you repent and stop doing, and if for like, let's, let's take, for example, the music, I

28:47was really into heavy metal and, and really dark music before I came to God, it took me

28:53years.

28:54And I mean like a good 15 to 18 years to go back and, and, you know, analyze those kind

29:05of, of, of genres without me, like having the same feeling that I had with when, when

29:14I was really into it.

29:15And of course I'm, there's a lot of bands that I'm not going to listen because it's pretty

29:21obvious that they are against everything I believe now, but there's a lot of bands that

29:28does not, you know, and that's just a really simple example of that.

29:34But what if, if you like to do anything that you stop doing because you don't, you can use

29:41that time for teaching somebody or to discipling someone, or you, you end up losing yourself

29:49and losing your identity.

29:50And that's a really sad thing because that's one of the things that hit hardest to anyone

29:58leaving high control group.

30:00And pretty much the only way that I was able to, to go on with my life was going to

30:09therapy,

30:10basically, because I, coming from a group like that, you don't have the tools to assess

30:18yourself.

30:19Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of

30:24modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe

30:29movements into the new apostolic reformation?

30:32You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

30:39On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles

30:45Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and

30:51digital versions of each book.

30:53You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

30:59movements.

31:00If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute

31:05button at the top.

31:07And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening

31:12to or watching.

31:13On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

31:18One of the biggest things that a high control group will rob from you is your opinion.

31:23They will tell you that your opinion must match the central figure's opinion, if there's

31:28a central figure.

31:29Sometimes there is an array of central figures, apostles or prophets, whatever you want to

31:33call these guys.

31:34But when it really comes down to it, their doctrines are mostly based off of their opinions.

31:40If you look back at the post-World War II healing revival, there was a lot of change happening

31:45in America, and some of the old timers were just so, so reluctant to change that they

31:52started preaching that change literally is of the devil.

31:55And all these new things that are coming, these newfangled things that are coming, that's

31:59the devil's tools.

32:01And what happened was it bred a lot of people.

32:04There were people who were raised in it, like me, who was not allowed to have my opinion.

32:09And one of the freedoms that I have, you're talking about the music and some bands are good

32:14to listen to, some have total polar opposite views of what we believe.

32:20I learned to have my opinion in all things.

32:24Because as long as your opinion isn't doing something destructive, I'll put a boundary

32:29around my opinion.

32:30For example, one of the bands that almost every Christian hates, and there will be hate mail

32:37in the comments whenever I say this, the band Kiss.

32:41Christians spread this propaganda saying it was knights in Satan's service, all of this

32:45stuff, none of which is really true if you know the history.

32:48But they say this is an evil band, you shouldn't listen to it.

32:51They paint their face like clowns, and they, you know, whatever it is.

32:55Anyway, I listened to the music.

32:57I wasn't really that much of a fan until somebody gave me the song Beth.

33:02Somebody said, hey, you need to listen to Beth by the band Kiss.

33:05And so I listened to it, one of the most beautiful songs that I've ever heard was Beth by Kiss.

33:11And I came to realize that it is my opinion, I like that song.

33:15It's my opinion, most of their other stuff I don't like.

33:19But I'm allowed to have that opinion.

33:22And we were in the mentality where it's all or nothing, just because somebody didn't like

33:28the way that they dressed or painted their faces or whatever, or the name they tried to

33:32imply it was knights in Satan's service.

33:34You had to match their opinion, and you were forced into their opinion.

33:38And what it does is it robs you of your identity.

33:41If you don't have an opinion that you can claim as your own, you don't have an identity.

33:45I totally agree with you.

33:47Now, there's an interesting thing that happened to me a few days ago.

33:53I was talking to a friend, and he told me, hey, the reason I left my church was because

34:00I was having issues with my marriage.

34:05It was getting hard just to get by.

34:10No big issues, no real big, big issues, but we were having just a bad time after so many

34:16years and debts and whatnot.

34:19And I left the church because they were not prepared to help me.

34:24They were not prepared to deal with things that I was going through with my marriage.

34:31And this person told me, I realized that they were not professionals, and that they were not

34:37capable of handling trauma.

34:40And this is something that I'm very aware of.

34:44Like, just because you're a leader or a pastor doesn't mean that you have all the necessary

34:50tools to deal with domestic violence issues or with medical issues or addressing any kind

34:59of traumatic event.

35:00So, you should, and knowing that, seek qualified help for those kind of things.

35:11And the problem is that they will tell you, oh, yeah, yeah, professional help is very important,

35:19but go to this person.

35:20And they will tell you right away who you can go to and who can and who you can't, because

35:28probably they share the same mentality of them.

35:33So, one of the things that I highly encourage is going and seeking qualified help of a professional,

35:44even if it's not of a believer.

35:46Darrell Bock Absolutely, and I want to stress that last part.

35:48I am actually of the opinion that if you have been bruised and spiritually abused by a high

35:54demand group, a cult or destructive group, you probably shouldn't go to a Christian counselor.

36:01And I'm saying that I know that there are people who will argue with me.

36:05They will say, yes, but if you do this, they'll try to talk you out of belief in God.

36:09I can assure you that if you go to a good counselor, they're trained not to do that.

36:14That is, that goes actually against the code of conduct of going to a therapist.

36:19They aren't allowed to do that.

36:21So, if you go to somebody who is a Christian counselor, what happens is sometimes they'll

36:27use language that triggers the programming in your head, and suddenly you can't communicate

36:32at the level you need to with a therapist.

36:34Because you have been so bruised that now your language shuts down, and it just simply

36:40in many cases does not work.

36:42So, I recommend at least start with somebody who is not advertising as Christian counseling.

36:48And what you'll find is, the one that I went to is not, by no means, a Christian counselor.

36:55But what you find out later is, well, he actually is a Christian.

36:58And they just don't advertise that way.

37:01So, you know, everybody has to feel their own, find their own way and make their own choices.

37:07But I do recommend against it just because of the triggering.

37:11Yes, I 100% agree.

37:13Now, one more topic that, for me, it was really important, and it was actually the hardest thing

37:20for me to do, for many, many reasons.

37:23Have you ever heard this saying that, like, forgiveness or unforgiveness is like drinking

37:32a poison expecting somebody else to die?

37:35No, but it sounds very similar to what actually happened when you do this.

37:39Yeah, yeah.

37:40Well, you have to forgive.

37:44That is one of the hardest things, because, of course, there's so many wrong things.

37:51But you have to understand that leaving physically does not always mean that you're going to leave

37:57emotionally that specific group, because anger and resentment and unforgiveness can, you know,

38:05can keep the former leader at the center of your life, even if you're not there.

38:10So one of the things that, well, it's actually one of the things that God asks us to do is

38:17just to forgive, right?

38:19And it is so hard, and I understand, and I validate the anger that comes with realizing

38:26that you've been in a group that is way off biblically, and that you have been groomed,

38:34or you've been bruised, but I understand that, and I validate that.

38:41And I agree with you that, you know, maybe in the early stages of you living, the last

38:48thing you want to do is just to forgive, but eventually you're going to have to do it,

38:52because it's part of your healing process.

38:55How was your experience with forgiveness, John?

38:58Because my experience was hard, and it was hard for me, it took me a good amount of years

39:06to start, you know, forgiving people and going back even in some cases and talking to those

39:15person to those people.

39:17But how was your experience?

39:19Because in your case, it was way much extremist, right?

39:23Yeah, it was a very destructive group, and a lot of people who leave the group that I

39:28left, they really struggle even to talk to somebody who was in it, even if that person

39:34is being kind to them, because the group was so incredibly destructive.

39:39I'm different because I'm an empath, and so I'm actually going to give different advice

39:44than you.

39:44There's, like I said, there's a broad spectrum of things that can happen when you leave.

39:48There are people who struggle with forgiveness, and you have to work through that, because

39:53if you can't forgive, you're never going to move on.

39:55You'll be stuck in your journey, and you go no further.

39:58There are other people, like me, who instantly forgave.

40:02I had no problem.

40:05In fact, my first thought was, oh my gosh, what have I done?

40:09It's my fault.

40:10It's not even their fault.

40:11And so I had to forgive myself first, and then try to move on beyond that.

40:17And the problem that you run into if you're an empath is that you try to fix it.

40:23That's the first thing that comes in your head, I must fix this.

40:26Honestly, that's why I have this whole weird world where I'm helping all these people, because

40:32I'm that much of an empath.

40:35When you're that way, there comes a point when you have to realize that not everybody

40:41wants to be fixed.

40:42And it took me a long time to learn this lesson, because I wanted to fix it.

40:47I thought the very first thing that I published that, you know, they believe this guy's a

40:52prophet, and there's not a single successful prophecy.

40:55How can you say this?

40:56The moment I published this and showed clear examples, I thought, well, there's going to

41:00be this mass exodus.

41:01Everybody will leave.

41:03And then they didn't.

41:04And so I'm stuck there as an empath thinking, well, what's the next thing I do?

41:09And the next thing and the next thing.

41:11And it developed into this massive thing that exists today.

41:14So part of it is good in that it's now helping a lot of people.

41:18But the problem for me was it nearly destroyed me because I could not grasp having a situation

41:27that I could not fix.

41:29And I wanted to fix it so badly.

41:31And it took me years to move past that.

41:34I'm past it now to some extent.

41:36But there's this part of me that thinks, I don't want any more children to be raised

41:41in this destructive thing.

41:43I must help them.

41:44And I'm still going to go after it.

41:47So there's two sides of the coin.

41:48If you're like me, you're an empath.

41:50You have to work through that.

41:51And you're probably going to have to get into some sort of a therapy to get past it.

41:56Yeah.

41:56And I would like also to just to mention a couple of things of what is not forgiveness.

42:04And it's not returning back to the same group, believing that you have a different mentality

42:14and that you have to go back and, as you said, fix everything or at least show them anything.

42:21That's not going to go well.

42:25And it's not to restore the trust in anyone who harmed you in any way.

42:34And it's not eliminate legal or institutional accountability or consequences if you faced

42:41any kind of abuse.

42:44And it does not require reconciliation with an unrepentant or unsafe person.

42:52Because guess what's going to happen when you go back to that person?

42:57He or she is going to try to do the same thing he did.

43:00And most likely, he's going to success.

43:04And it's not your fault.

43:06It's probably it's not time or you don't have yet the tools to stop that from happening.

43:13So those things are not forgiveness.

43:17But I think, as you said, it's a very, very important thing.

43:23And the other thing that I'll say is it does not have to impede your boundaries or your new

43:29freedoms.

43:30We came out of a very destructive sect that was based off of Pentecostalism.

43:34So the ladies had to have the Pentecostal dress code, the long dresses, the long hair,

43:39all of the stuff.

43:40And once they left, they tried to reconcile and fix things like I do.

43:44And they wanted to fix the family relationship.

43:47And what they found was the family said, you are only allowed in our house if you're wearing

43:52a dress.

43:52If you're wearing pants, you're not welcome.

43:55And so what the family has tried to do is try to rob them of their new freedom.

44:00You can't wear these pants.

44:01You can't wear these shorts.

44:03And I'm going to control you when you're in my house.

44:05That's essentially what they're saying.

44:07And the first question that I have is, have you responded to them?

44:11Well, that's fine.

44:12But if you come to my house, you have to wear pants and you can't wear those skirts.

44:16That's an example of boundaries.

44:18They're trying to overstep their boundaries.

44:20And they're wanting to do it without you setting your own boundaries.

44:24And you can't allow this.

44:26You have to stand up and say, that's not the way things work in the world.

44:31Yes, I agree with you.

44:33And that's actually a very common thing that happens in Costa Rica and churches.

44:40They will right away tell you, okay, here's what you have to do.

44:44Here are the rules because we want to honor God.

44:47It's not even because of us.

44:48It's because we want to do the godly thing and we want to honor God.

44:54And that's how it goes.

44:57So don't take it personally.

44:58It's not me.

45:00It's just how God likes it or it's the godly way.

45:05The other thing that I'll mention is when you begin this journey, there's a psychological thing that happens.

45:11You suddenly experience trauma.

45:15And sadly, there's no way around it.

45:17Trauma changes how the brain works.

45:19And I'm not a professional psychologist, so I'm not trying to overstep my bounds.

45:26You can go to a psychologist and learn this in the same way that I did.

45:30But there are tools you have to use, psychological tools, to help overcome your trauma because it will change the

45:39way you think.

45:40It will change the way that you react.

45:41One of the things that I still actually struggle with today, although it's far decreased, is the same thing, interestingly,

45:50that my dog has.

45:52My dog, when it gets agitated, when it gets scared, its first reaction is to bark.

45:59And that's something that I have learned.

46:01I have to deal with this dog who they will, when my dog is afraid of another dog, it will

46:07lunge at it.

46:08That's really how weird this is because that's how they're reacting.

46:13Well, I'm the same way.

46:15Whenever something happens that makes me uncomfortable, my very first thought is I want to get red in the face.

46:21I want to get hot under the collar and say something I shouldn't say.

46:25And that was happening a lot when I first left.

46:29I was not, looking back, I was not a person that I would have even liked to be around.

46:34And I couldn't help it.

46:36So one of the things that a therapist will work through with you is, well, you have just experienced trauma.

46:41What is happening is the things that you are reacting to are not actually what your brain is telling you

46:49you're reacting to.

46:50You're actually reacting to your trauma, but you're taking it out on the person who is getting confrontational.

46:56So I had to deal with this, and it is something that a lot of people, I think, will because

47:01they're, like anything, there are varying levels of trauma that you experience when you leave.

47:07Some people, they leave, and it's not a lot of trauma.

47:10It's just a little.

47:10But for me, it was probably the most traumatic thing that I ever went through in my entire life.

47:15Yes, and I agree.

47:19And I have one last question for you, my friend.

47:23And I know it's a very open question you can spend any time.

47:29But the question is, and I'm going to answer first before you answer, who did you become after you leave?

47:40In my case, I became a father and a husband, a better professional.

47:50I grew in so many areas.

47:56Interestingly enough, I thought that I was not ready to do anything, any of those things when I was in

48:02church, because I was not ready.

48:05The thing that was, the teaching that I got was, well, if you want to form a family, here's what

48:14you have to do.

48:15This is what you need to do.

48:17This is a set of things, a set of rules.

48:21This is exactly what you need to do in order to become a father, a husband, a better professional.

48:29Guess what?

48:31I left the group, and I became all those things.

48:35I'm not perfect by any means.

48:37But what I'm saying is, don't ever think that because you leave a group, you're not going to be able

48:45to achieve any kind of success in those areas.

48:49Because it's not just your relationship with God what is affected within those groups.

48:56It's your entire personality.

48:59If you have a complex, if you don't think that you're enough, probably one of the things that you're going

49:08to fear the most when you leave is not being good enough to be alone in the journey of faith

49:16with God.

49:17So when I was in a group that trained us to believe that we had all mysteries opened, the leader

49:26had given us all secret knowledge, we had this thing that nobody else in the world had.

49:31So what you left is this mentality of not only pride, but pride and instant knowledge of everything.

49:38You are a know-it-all.

49:39Simply put, you're a know-it-all.

49:41And at the same time, you're rude, obnoxious.

49:45You don't treat people with respect.

49:48All of that indoctrination.

49:50I could go right down the list of all of the flaws that were part of the indoctrination process.

49:54I left as that person.

49:58And I left and I remained that person.

50:01I probably remained that person for two or three years.

50:03And I realized after leaving and thinking it through, I really didn't like who I was.

50:08And I think the only way that I can answer this, I find myself on a journey where I actually

50:15know very little.

50:17And in my lifetime, I may never even scratch the surface of the things that I want to know.

50:23And at the same time, I wasn't a good person.

50:26And I'm trying to train myself how to be a good person.

50:29And I realized that that may also be a lifetime to achieve because not everybody can be perfect in this

50:36life.

50:36It's just that simple.

50:38So, I guess the best way to answer it is I find myself on a journey.

50:43And that's part of what we're discussing here.

50:47You begin this journey when you leave the high command, high control group.

50:51Yeah, definitely.

50:52I think one of the greatest things of podcasts like this and YouTube channels like this and et cetera is

51:03that as soon as a person who's experiencing this kind of situations know or knows or is aware that somebody

51:12else is going through the same situation, it immediately gets better for them.

51:18It's easier to find information, to relate to a different person, in this case, in a different country or, you

51:27know, in Costa Rica, but it's pretty much the same all and everywhere.

51:31So, this is one thing that I want to thank you and thanks everyone who's watching the podcast.

51:40And I wanted to say that if you are leaving a high control group, do not fear.

51:49I mean, at the end of the day, God is a loving God, is a caring God, is a caring

51:56father that will protect his sons and daughters.

51:59And at the end of the day, if you trust God, he will make everything fit, he will make a

52:08way, you're going to get better, everything's going to be better, eventually.

52:14Don't fear if you're going through a phase of uncertainty or pain or grieving everything that you left behind.

52:23I mean, it's a very normal thing for every one of us.

52:29So, just keep going.

52:32God will help you.

52:33And I hope this kind of content will help you as well.

52:37Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

52:40You can find us at william-branum.org.

52:43For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to

52:49the NAR.

52:50Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

53:20Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity

53:32Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

53:33Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

53:35Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

53:36Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

53:38Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

53:41Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

53:42Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

Faith After the High Control Church: Rebuilding What You Believe | Christian Arce | Episode 687

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